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View Full Version : Ubi, please explain to me how vortex is balanced.



Divenity
05-25-2017, 10:15 PM
I'd really like to know how this still exists and how anyone can possibly think it's ok... How is being caught in an infinite stunlock chain unless the player happens to GUESS correctly considered fun to you?

Please, please explain your logic behind leaving this abomination of a cancerous mechanic in the game, please, tell us why you consider it balanced, please, tell us how you expect people to counter it, please.


How is this fun to you? Have you never been on the receiving end of this or something? I can't see how anyone who has been could possibly consider it anything other than cancer.

Morpheus256
05-25-2017, 10:42 PM
Warden doesn't have a stun tho...

Netcode_err_404
05-25-2017, 10:52 PM
Warden doesn't have a stun tho...

Full charged bash can stunlock you

AcheesyTURTLE
05-25-2017, 10:55 PM
Game is impossible to balance, which is all across the board with any "fighting" game. That's why tier lists exist, these types of games are inherently unbalanced due to the very specific play style of each character. The variety of character move sets is what draws people to these sort of games, instead of generic assault rifle #1 vs generic assault rifle #2. My only advise is to practice against it, it's not completely OP otherwise it would've been nerfed like everything else.

Divenity
05-25-2017, 10:55 PM
Warden doesn't have a stun tho...

What do you call bash/gb into double light? I call that a stun, what hapopens after it's done? play a guessing game! Guess wrong? You're back int he stun, repeat until death or lucky guess...



My only advise is to practice against it Please do enlighten me as to how I'm supposed to practice a 33/33/33 guessing game.


it's not completely OP otherwise it would've been nerfed like everything else.

Yes it is, the devs are just incompetent as far as im concerned. It doesn't need to be cancelable into GB, it makes it too strong. If it's too weak after that, make it faster so the base effect is harder to dodge. It being cancelable into GB, which is the hard counter for it's base effect's only counter makes it overpowered.


Right now it is so strong that there is literally no reason to ever do anything else. That means it is overpowered, that means it needs to be nerfed.

AcheesyTURTLE
05-25-2017, 10:56 PM
Full charge shoulder bash tracking is garbage and takes solid seconds to charge up. If you get hit by it, it's your fault.

Divenity
05-25-2017, 11:03 PM
Also


Game is impossible to balance



Yes, it is impossible to balance perfectly, but it IS sure as hell possible to get it closer to balanced than it is now... A LOT closer.

Vingrask
05-25-2017, 11:05 PM
People already forgot about Warden, Lawbringer and Valkyrie. The Shinobi and Centurion madness may last until the next 2 victims be release in Season 3.

Morpheus256
05-25-2017, 11:38 PM
What do you call bash/gb into double light? I call that a stun

I guess you could call it a stun since it renders you defenseless to the next attack but it isn't exactly a stun like Raider's dash>light for instance. It doesn't matter what you call it tho, it's BS.

Moondyne_MC
05-25-2017, 11:46 PM
Don't try and dodge, hit him with your fastest attack instead. That will stop both the bash AND the GB if you land it right.

Nestramutat
05-25-2017, 11:49 PM
I have a quick-fix for this, but it may enrage the elitists. Just make it so you cant GB a dude who is dodging. There you go, no more 50/50. I personally think its an oversight and a ******ed mechanic that you can GB a dodge. Why is it called a dodge then?

Nestramutat
05-25-2017, 11:51 PM
Don't try and dodge, hit him with your fastest attack instead. That will stop both the bash AND the GB if you land it right.

Does not work on characters who don't have a fast light attack, which is most heroes aside from assassins and valk.

Lord_Nirgal
05-26-2017, 12:02 AM
The shoulder bash mixup of the warden actually forces you more then guessing to choose what is more convenient to you in that moment.

most wardens will try to gb after the second bash, if you have health you can simply wait for his gb attempt, if you have low health you should dodge at the first chance to force a punish and be done with it, same is true if you are out of stamina you should force a gb by dodging to take the punish and reset.

side light attacks deal 15dmg while a top heavy deals 40, if you get 2 bashes and a gb you suffer 70dmg, if you do not dash you are going to suffer 3 bashes with a minimum of 90dmg and a maximum of 100 (6 lights or 4 lights + 1 top heavy). If the warden has enough stamina by refusing to dodge you risk a ton of damage! But anyway the real problem exists only when you are out of stamina and cannot roll back, if that happens take the gb as soon as you can and reset.

Divenity
05-26-2017, 01:00 AM
I have a quick-fix for this, but it may enrage the elitists. Just make it so you cant GB a dude who is dodging. There you go, no more 50/50. I personally think its an oversight and a ******ed mechanic that you can GB a dodge. Why is it called a dodge then?

Then dodge wouldn't have a counter, and that is bad... The fix is to just not let them cancel into GB.

kweassa1917
05-26-2017, 01:26 AM
Realistically speaking, even in tourney-level matches even the "pros" can't really counter it at all. Oh sure, they can "counter" it if they do it in like a fixed practice matchup or demonstration, or when fighting an ordinary joe with at much lower skill level... but when they fight someone on their own level, they're just as much vulnerable to the vortex as any one of us.

The best "defense" against the "vortex" (and any other similar 50/50 situations coming from UB+UPs, for that matter) -- realistically speaking -- is simply, don't try in vain to "counter" it, and guess wrong, and make things even worse.

Instead of "countering" it, the better option is damage control. Weigh the two situations on a scale... is it better to be hit by a guaranteed light attack followup? Or is it better to be GBd and give him a free heavy attack? That's where damage control starts. Of course its better to be hit by lights, than give off free heavies.

Therefore, when a vortex is happening, unless you are 100% sure it's going to be a straight-up SB, don't dodge. Prepare a CGB. If it's a straight-up SB-light, just take the hit, and then immediately back-roll or do whatever you have to part the distance and "reset" the fight. Just be prepared to CGB a the SB-cancel-GB,

Whatever you do, don't give off GB-heavies.

After that happens 2~3 times it may even aid your "mindgames" a little. What will the Warden player think after he sees you CGB out of ALL of his SB-GB attempts, but take hits when it's SB-light? When you are confident this mindgame is happening, that is your timing to start trying dodges against vortex.


It's what the "pros" do in tourneys. Even they can't just instantly counter a clandestine, unanticipated vortex happening, but when it happens, they never give out the free GB=heavy hit. They take the light hit, and immediately reset the fight and do not allow it to happen a second time.

Nestramutat
05-26-2017, 09:26 AM
Then dodge wouldn't have a counter, and that is bad... The fix is to just not let them cancel into GB.

Dodge does not need a counter, bro, you dodge so you don't get hit. An enemy constantly dodging is not doing any damage, whereas a warden doing 50/50 shuts you down.
I know some characters have dodge attacks, but they are blockable/parryable/counterable. Unlike wardens' SB/GB mixup.

I strongly believe guard break should not work against dodge/evade. We have way too many tracking attacks in this game. Simple fix and many problems solved.

UrWaifuAintReal
05-26-2017, 09:38 AM
Does not work on characters who don't have a fast light attack, which is most heroes aside from assassins and valk.

False, a 600ms attack is enough to cancel the shoulder bash, and everyone's slowest light is 600ms, and everyone except raider and Shugoki has a 500ms attack.

Here's my guide on how to deal with the vortex, it works for all characters:


http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1668183-The-Warden-Problem-The-current-For-Honor-META?p=12639905&viewfull=1#post12639905


http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php...1#post12633938

Warden can only initiate shoulder bash after a light or a dodge, this is your punish window, keep your guard top, or if you feel confident in your parrying ability, keep your guard left to block the zone and react to the top light, this will force warden to dodge to initiate shoulder bash, other than light attack you can throw out GB on reaction or on prediction and you're bound to catch Warden in this vulnerability frames.

Also keep a distance of 5ft from the Warden or the maximum distance where you can still hit the warden, at 5ft distance or more, you can safely dodge away from a charging shoulder bash and you'll be out of GB range even if the Warden cancel immediately into GB.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzfK7AWOhjU

2:38:38, this is text book counters to Warden's vortex, at high level play, the only use for vortex is for punishing OOS because initiating shoulder bash out of neutral is extremely risky against people who knows how to counter it.
http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php...1#post12633987

Oh and also you have to play a bit quite passively, focus on your spacing and punish because if you get overly aggressive and become OOS, that's when shoulder bash becomes truly dangerous because you cannot cancel it with light attack or roll aways anymore. If you get hit with light attack and have 2/3 or more stamina left, immedietely double dash away, by the time the warden runs up to you your stamina would have been equalized, when the warden runs up to you and if you feel confident, throw out random attack.

And add to that, if see the Warden constantly feint his shoulder bash to fish for parry, throw out random GB and you'll catch him in his vulnerability frame.

Regarding the feint into parrying, Warden has to predict which direction the attack will be coming from and buffer the parry command right when he cancel to have any chance of parrying light attack, so unless you're being predictable and only attack from the same direction, he'll have only 33% change of parrying your attack if you mix up your attack directions/ 25% if you also throw out GB.

Also if you get by the first shoulder bash and buffer the light attack command while still being staggered, that light attack will be impossible for Warden to parry.

Nestramutat
05-26-2017, 10:54 AM
False, a 600ms attack is enough to cancel the shoulder bash, and everyone's slowest light is 600ms, and everyone except raider and Shugoki has a 500ms attack.

Here's my guide on how to deal with the vortex, it works for all characters:


http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1668183-The-Warden-Problem-The-current-For-Honor-META?p=12639905&viewfull=1#post12639905


And add to that, if see the Warden constantly feint his shoulder bash to fish for parry, throw out random GB and you'll catch him in his vulnerability frame.

Regarding the feint into parrying, Warden has to predict which direction the attack will be coming from and buffer the parry command right when he cancel to have any chance of parrying light attack, so unless you're being predictable and only attack from the same direction, he'll have only 33% change of parrying your attack if you mix up your attack directions/ 25% if you also throw out GB.

Also if you get by the first shoulder bash and buffer the light attack command while still being staggered, that light attack will be impossible for Warden to parry.

Very insightful and helpful, thank you very much! Though the warden was not abusing SB/GB 50/50.

CaptainPwnet
05-26-2017, 11:08 AM
The problem lies in the very base mechanics of the game. They designed it so that every basic attack is avoidable,blockable, punishable on reaction. So if every attack can be negated or punished on reaction it leads to overly defensive play because it is too risky to throw attacks that every above average or better player can react to and negate/punish. So the only option they have is to have things like 50/50's or else you end up with staring contest engagements.

In normal fighting games many of your basic normal attacks cannot be blocked on reaction so you have to anticipate and assume what your opponent is going to do. The most basic and common defensive tactic is holding down+back so you are ready to block any mid or low attack as you will not be able to react to most of the basic jabs and normal attacks. Then you react to the jump in and overhead attacks that are more telegraphed and will hit a person blocking low by standing up and holding back to block high. Obviously fighting games get much more complex depending on your preferred game and some even employ similar 50/50 mixup elements but also might have a myriad of other defensive mechanics in place to get yourself out of trouble.

For Honor being a 3d game that has unique mechanics can't employ a system such as this and with it's reaction based, directional attack/block gameplay it is forced to do 1 or both of 2 things I can think of. Employ heavy chip damage for blocked attacks, or the 50/50's that many people disapprove of. If you only employed chip damage then many matches would simply be back and forth trading of blocked attacks until someone eventually dies(Disregarding the parry mechanic which would most likely negate chip damage and make this mechanic kind of pointless). This would be quite boring and lame IMO. The 50/50's do require some guesswork, but can also be employed with mind games and opponent conditioning to get them to do what you want. Guess work in a skill based game isn't ideal but at least it makes proper damage and offensive play possible.

The thing to remember is that this game was never and probably never will be designed as a 1v1 game. So while the 50/50's and whatnot may be frustrating(and I see this game going further and further down this path), the game is a team game at it's heart and each character is designed with a role in mind. So 1v1 balance and general mechanical balance in that regard will be something liekly forever out of reach in For Honor. If you really want solid 1v1 battles then you will be much better served with a proper fighting game.

UrWaifuAintReal
05-26-2017, 05:09 PM
Very insightful and helpful, thank you very much! Though the warden was not abusing SB/GB 50/50.

No, the Warden did not SB into GB because the orochi was on the edge just outside of the GB tracking range.

RatedChaotic
05-26-2017, 05:15 PM
Game is impossible to balance, which is all across the board with any "fighting" game. That's why tier lists exist, these types of games are inherently unbalanced due to the very specific play style of each character. The variety of character move sets is what draws people to these sort of games, instead of generic assault rifle #1 vs generic assault rifle #2. My only advise is to practice against it, it's not completely OP otherwise it would've been nerfed like everything else.

Where is this tier list? Who is it created by? I have yet to see one thats all facts and actual numbers. All I have seen is opinionated ones.