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View Full Version : My Thoughts on Shinobi as a Shinobi main



Synsif
05-25-2017, 03:16 PM
I've seen a lot of posts about how either Shinobi is either broken or completely underpowered. I can't see arguments for either side, but I'd like to provide my opinion on Shinobi and possible changes to his class (yes, nerfs).

First I'll say that Shinobi is a super fun class for me to play and fight against and I couldn't ask for a cooler character to use. That being said, he may be a bit strong. He needs a couple small tweaks in my opinion that, if implemented, would balance him out fairly. They are as follows:

His kick, oh my this will be controversial. Okay, so, his kick is basically his only opening move and if hit too hard could make the class useless, but it does need a nerf nonetheless. Here's my proposal; make the kick interruptable by all unblockable charges/pushes (i.e. Wardens bash, Conquerors shield bash, Nobushis kick, etc) Yes I know some are already able to interrupt it, but they all should. Second, this kick should NOT stun the Shugoki if he has hyper armor. Shugoki should be able to take the kick and only have it get rid of the hyper armor, that's it. Note, I'm not saying get rid of hyper armor on the kick completely, he should still be able to trade with a hit.

His lights. Okay, so this is pretty simple. Just make it so after the 2 light combo, it takeseems longer to start up another attack. So you get in the two lights but have a longer recovery time. This will help prevent light spam.

Finally, the stamina issue. So Shinobi has a lot of attacks that can drain the enemies stamina. The ONLY attack he has that should drain stamina is his kicks. That's it. No more, no less. (The drain from the kick should be lessened by a little as well)

That's it! If you have any suggestions to changes I'd love to hear them!

CandleInTheDark
05-25-2017, 03:31 PM
I agree that the kick needs looking at but I would take a different approach with it. For me, the issue with his kick is that even if he misses, he keeps the initiative, he is still likely going to attack in whatever manner before anyone not an assassin dodging can counterattack. So I would say have it so that if the kick hits, you attack as normal (only fair, you saw an opening and got it), if it misses, have a short recovery time that gives the opponent the initiative. I would be cautious about taking its priority from top to bottom,I kind of feel that a warden, if it got started (I haven't checked this out to see if it is entirely accurate mind) could kill a shinobi before running out of stamina if it caught it in the light-light-charge routine, at the least he would come very close. I feel that is why it was given higher priority than the other unblockables.

His lights, I don't know their speed, I do know off the patchnotes to last week's hotfix that the recovery time is equal to the peacekeeper's at 700ms, It could be seen as fair as is, equally it could be seen to be fair if it is a little longer, after all you have the backflip and the peacekeeper has fast in its character description.

I agree with the stamina loss from the kick and such, it could go down a little, Centurion it makes sense, that is his kit, shinobi has mobility and coming in and out to get its mixups going.

CaynAldan
05-25-2017, 03:39 PM
After a pair of hours with the shinobi, i don't understand the problem with kick, i have been attacked and even killed a lot of times while kicking. And Shugoki with hyperarmor, go through the kick and hit. And shinobi is a hero i can't master because on his reliance on deflect, that i can do well thanks to my ISP

At this very moment, i feel shinobi very balance, maybe with better gear it changes but... It has no health! you just need to punish it once or twice and it's dead. In fact is the heroe I defeat with less effort.

It only has deflects and kick. Every time i get into skirmish or dominion i feel like my mates companion, all y can do is annoy a bit for my mates kill the target. If go to gank i'll probably get killed by my own playmates, so i just tackle and poke from range. If I go alone, i have to face 1vX battles, where i'm death before it start. In the case i' manage to 1v1 someone, if i do only one mistake, i have to go running to a capture zone after combat.

If you play versus a good shinobi is a pain, but it isn't worst that a warden, berserker, or warlord, who, in devs word "Is the standard for balanced character"

If you are beaten by a shinobi with one of the "OP" heroes, you need to improve against shinobi. If you are beaten with any other hero, your hero need to be buffed.

CandleInTheDark
05-25-2017, 03:42 PM
After a pair of hours with the shinobi, i don't understand the problem with kick, i have been attacked and even killed a lot of times while kicking. And Shugoki with hyperarmor, go through the kick and hit. And shinobi is a hero i can't master because on his reliance on deflect, that i can do well thanks to my ISP

At this very moment, i feel shinobi very balance, maybe with better gear it changes but... It has no health! you just need to punish it once or twice and it's dead. In fact is the heroe I defeat with less effort.

It only has deflects and kick. Every time i get into skirmish or dominion i feel like my mates companion, all y can do is annoy a bit for my mates kill the target. If go to gank i'll probably get killed by my own playmates, so i just tackle and poke from range. If I go alone, i have to face 1vX battles, where i'm death before it start. In the case i' manage to 1v1 someone, if i do only one mistake, i have to go running to a capture zone after combat.

If you play versus a good shinobi is a pain, but it isn't worst that a warden, berserker, or warlord, who, in devs word "Is the standard for balanced character"

If you are beaten by a shinobi with one of the "OP" heroes, you need to improve against shinobi. If you are beaten with any other hero, your hero need to be buffed.

If used right, the shinobi is very dangerous, my last dominion with one I topped the scoreboard with a 9-0 kills to deaths score without having taken a zone to further boost my score and I am still in grey gear. Yes his hitpoints are lower and I wouldn't go for the kick in dominion unless you are disrupting an unblockable chain on an ally but the charged heavy, which is dangerous to use in duel, is a lot more viable, especially with the stealth feat.

WFL_M4sT3R_
05-25-2017, 04:02 PM
Do you people undesrtand that his "famous" kick can be interrupted with simple light/heavy attack if timed properly, that you can dodge the kick, same that you can GB shinobi dodge, i mean what else it will left if you nerf the shinobi, it would be obsolete, anyway i always try to keep distance and stay alive because if they catch shinobii its dead 90%, it takes 2-3 heavy hits and its down???

Synsif
05-25-2017, 04:17 PM
I agree that the kick needs looking at but I would take a different approach with it. For me, the issue with his kick is that even if he misses, he keeps the initiative, he is still likely going to attack in whatever manner before anyone not an assassin dodging can counterattack. So I would say have it so that if the kick hits, you attack as normal (only fair, you saw an opening and got it), if it misses, have a short recovery time that gives the opponent the initiative. I would be cautious about taking its priority from top to bottom,I kind of feel that a warden, if it got started (I haven't checked this out to see if it is entirely accurate mind) could kill a shinobi before running out of stamina if it caught it in the light-light-charge routine, at the least he would come very close. I feel that is why it was given higher priority than the other unblockables.

His lights, I don't know their speed, I do know off the patchnotes to last week's hotfix that the recovery time is equal to the peacekeeper's at 700ms, It could be seen as fair as is, equally it could be seen to be fair if it is a little longer, after all you have the backflip and the peacekeeper has fast in its character description.

I agree with the stamina loss from the kick and such, it could go down a little, Centurion it makes sense, that is his kit, shinobi has mobility and coming in and out to get its mixups going.

Actually that's a great point. The kick should have a recovery time if it misses. I think that maybe instead of giving it a base recovery time, you would just be unable to throw an automatic ranged heavy/GB and would not be able to backflip to safety. This makes it so he's now in range of a good punish, but has a slight chance to make it out alive. I think that giving a base recovery time on it is a bad idea, but only if the recovery time is long enough to allow the opponent to get a guard break. A gb seems like way too much damage for a punish on a missed kick. Just my opinion. I think and appropriate punish would be a light (or two lights if you're playing a Warden/ Orochi because of their 2 light combo. Idk, seems like a decent amount of damage for such a punish. Tell me what you think.

Vingrask
05-25-2017, 04:34 PM
Can you guys imagine how useless the hero will be and how a Shinobi can be hard punished for something like this recovery you are asking?

The only problem the kick have is the stamina drain, where 2 kicks in sequence can drain all of the enemy's bar. Everything else is fine. The problems in 4v4 isn't exclusive of Shinobi and is something Ubi need to look based on a big picture.

2~3 mistakes are enough to get killed playing Shinobi and when facing players who learned how to play, the kick is just another tool for the guessing game, since it is unsafe. The double dodge is unsafe! The ranged attack is unsafe! Every double dodge finisher is unsafe! Stop being lazy and learn to play, people.

Glad Ubi have different ways to study a hero based on the skill range of the players.

It's funny how suddenly everybody stopped complain about Warden/Lawbringer's 50s and Valkyries/Peacekeeper's lights.

Synsif
05-25-2017, 05:05 PM
Can you guys imagine how useless the hero will be and how a Shinobi can be hard punished for something like this recovery you are asking?

The only problem the kick have is the stamina drain, where 2 kicks in sequence can drain all of the enemy's bar. Everything else is fine. The problems in 4v4 isn't exclusive of Shinobi and is something Ubi need to look based on a big picture.

2~3 mistakes are enough to get killed playing Shinobi and when facing players who learned how to play, the kick is just another tool for the guessing game, since it is unsafe. The double dodge is unsafe! The ranged attack is unsafe! Every double dodge finisher is unsafe! Stop being lazy and learn to play, people.

Glad Ubi have different ways to study a hero based on the skill range of the players.

It's funny how suddenly everybody stopped complain about Warden/Lawbringer's 50s and Valkyries/Peacekeeper's lights.

Calm down and stop bringing negativity. These are THOUGHTS. I'm not saying they will be implemented, but I think that maybe they should. If they don't, then oh well. I can't control it. Its not that I need to learn to play, I'm the one playing Shinobi and when I'm fighting anot her Shinobi, I usually have no issues. I'm suggesting these changes based on my observations when I'm fighting and based on the suggestions of others. Maybe he really doesn't need them, cool. If Ubi decides he does then that's find with me, if they think he doesn't then I'm fine with that too.

Vingrask
05-25-2017, 05:16 PM
Calm down and stop bringing negativity. These are THOUGHTS. I'm not saying they will be implemented, but I think that maybe they should. If they don't, then oh well. I can't control it. Its not that I need to learn to play, I'm the one playing Shinobi and when I'm fighting anot her Shinobi, I usually have no issues. I'm suggesting these changes based on my observations when I'm fighting and based on the suggestions of others. Maybe he really doesn't need them, cool. If Ubi decides he does then that's find with me, if they think he doesn't then I'm fine with that too.

The point is when someone come here and sat things, Ubi listen. All these cries over Centurion and Shinobi are being listened, and I'm the part who do not cry, but try see the both sides of the coin.

When players were crying over Centurion we was saying "it is possible to react to everything he does". And now we see less and less complaining about this. In my opinion, Centurion doesn't need the stamina drain, like Shinobi doesn't too.

Now the turn is for complain about Shinobi kick. Again, it is possible to react and punish. The kick isn't overpower, or we need to say a lot of unblockables of the game are. What happen in 4v4 is something the Revenge could fix.

Look what happened to Conqueror. Ubi listened the bad players directly for sure, because now I feel sorry for the hero. He's useless. I only lose for a Conqueror when I'm lazy just because I feel bad for the player. Now when it comes to Warden, Ubi tried a different a approuch, changing little things.

I doubt they won't will change the kick. The majority of players are bad and they can leave if something didn't happen. I just hope the change didn't make Shinobi or Centurion another Conqueror.

iiKinqZino
03-24-2018, 02:35 PM
Title says all, i like both and idk who i will main i already rep 5 shinobi rep 1 warden
HELPPP