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View Full Version : Slow Heroes becoming Obsolete



Mia.Nora
05-24-2017, 12:51 PM
I endured this several matches as a conqueror, and when I talked apparently situation is very similar for LB too. I dont know others, maybe Nobishi and Kensei might have a bit easier time due to their longer reach of attacks.

Here is the problem;

I fought several Shinobis 1v1 for objective control or Elimination.

There is absolutely no options I have that allows me to initiate fight without being %100 punished for it. Even trying to close on him cautiously is pointless since he can get out before I can corner him to a distance where he would be in my attack or GB range. He is always out of my reach.

So I wait for him to initiate attack and I try to counter it. And real problem starts here; IF I start to win, they just stay out of my reach and turtle.
Never let me get close enough for a GB/Attack yet not attacking, but still keeping me in range of their dash>dash>kick



Every other class has to be one dash away from me if they want to pose threat. And the ones who pose a threat from a further range has lower mobility options. Shinobi poses threat from much further and he is literally impossible to catch and attack if doesnt want to fight but still pose a threat.

At that point I have 2 options only;

1. Try go YOLO and get punished for an attempt that will fail.

2. Leave the objective and one of below
2.1 Lose objective
2.2 Get caught from behind since he can catch you at will with super sprint / range GB


Also something similar happens in XvX, where if he starts to lose you have to let him go and turn to someone else because there is literally no way you can catch/reach him. But he will keep posing a threat to you and your team.



I am already salty asf for both Centurion and Shinobi's kicks having no recovery time on missing where they go immediately to their next superfast attack; but never being able to catch shinobis once they start to lose and turtle is the most annoying thing.

PK/Oroichis were also fast if they wanted to run away, but that's the thing. They had to run away, not stay safe but still pose threat.

dekot11
05-24-2017, 05:17 PM
Sorry for off-topic but you had a post where you said devs were getting pulled from For Honor and The Division, do you have a link for that?

kbvlcvfkhgc
05-24-2017, 05:46 PM
I agree with you, the Shinobi has basically rendered the Conqueror obsolete,

the whole engagement is strictly dictated and controlled by the Shinobi, the Conqueror is totally impotent and has absolutely no ability to engage and impose his move-set, the shinobi can simple dodge, stand off and take his time picking the Conq apart,

you have to really question the wisdom of adding a ranged character to what is supposed to be a CQC game?

Netcode_err_404
05-24-2017, 05:54 PM
Slow characters have always been obsolete, now you just feel this more. Shugoki, LB, and nobushi are utter garbage for this reason.

LB can spam block shoves to fill the gap. And thats the main reason tha class is not good at all, and needs a restyle.


But people think " oh can be spam 1 ALMOST safe move ? The class is fine then", ignoring that is the exact definition of imbalanced.

I agree, on that matter, slow classes are out of the meta, always been, always be.

Untile they rework the whole game

Lyskir
05-24-2017, 06:05 PM
Slow characters are always been obsolete, now you just feel this more. Shugoki, LB, and nobushi are utter garbage for this reason.

LB can spam block shoves to fill the gap. And thats the main reason tha class is not good at all, and needs a restyle.


But people think " oh can be spam 1 ALMOST safe move ? The class is fine then", ignoring that is the exact definition of imbalanced.

I agree, on that matter, slow classes are out of the meta, always been, always be.

Untile they rework the whole game


sad but true

Netcode_err_404
05-24-2017, 06:18 PM
sad but true

I know, because I maina slow class since d1.

But the same goes for every slow classes.

As lb if you find a passive player, you are dead, because the shove won't work, and the hits are too slow to fool them. If they are even good at parries, just RIP.

With nobushi is even worse. Shugoki is the same garbage but better than nobushi.

All 3 characters are useless vs tutles because

- LB won't use his block > shove ( if they never attack you, you cannot use it)
- Shugoki cannot try a parry > wall hit > hug
-Nobusgi, cannot do nothing in pretty much 90% of the circumstances even if I find her very strong, in the current meta she has no place. Like kensei.

All 3 of them lack OPTIONS, to open up a player, and LB and shugo lack good mix ups.

Its the same with conqs, but his istant shield bash can come at handy in many circumstances.


Warden is slow, but have his godly 50/50. Warlords is slow, but, its a warlord, no need to tell ya why is broken.

FootlessRhino
05-24-2017, 06:20 PM
I am already salty asf for both Centurion and Shinobi's kicks having no recovery time on missing where they go immediately to their next superfast attack; but never being able to catch shinobis once they start to lose and turtle is the most annoying thing.


Centurion kick does have recovery time, it's a free GB if they don't follow it up with a heavy. if they do you can interrupt it with a light attack, simply block or parry/dodge the heavy and punish. Shinobi is a bit more complicated though

Netcode_err_404
05-24-2017, 06:24 PM
Centurion kick does have recovery time, it's a free GB if they don't follow it up with a heavy. if they do you can interrupt it with a light attack, simply block or parry/dodge the heavy and punish. Shinobi is a bit more complicated though

Lets just take here what you said.

"Centurion kick does have recovery time, it's a free GB if they don't follow it up with a heavy. if they do you can interrupt it with a light attack"

Thats right, so their punishment is 10/15 damage if you are fast enough.

But whats happens if they actually start their combo ?


Half hp gone



In that case, high reward, low risk = Unbalanced.

SetMySail4Fail
05-24-2017, 06:24 PM
@OP: This is - sadly - what I've been experiencing more and more in the past weeks. I main Shugoki and it's nothing but frustrating. The character is supposed to be a heavy hitter and trade blows with your enemies but sadly you won't hit anyone because your opponents:

a) Either dodge your slow attack,
b) or - and that happens to me most of the time - spam you to death with light attacks and you can't do anything about it.

I tried playing some other characters but so far they're not as fun as Shugoki. So I'm left with two options: Play a completely useless hero and get stomped by 80% of the other characters or swtich to a character I don't like.

Netcode_err_404
05-24-2017, 06:29 PM
@OP: This is - sadly - what I've been experiencing more and more in the past weeks. I main Shugoki and it's nothing but frustrating. The character is supposed to be a heavy hitter and trade blows with your enemies but sadly you won't hit anyone because your opponents:

a) Either dodge your slow attack,
b) or - and that happens to me most of the time - spam you to death with light attacks and you can't do anything about it.

I tried playing some other characters but so far they're not as fun as Shugoki. So I'm left with two options: Play a completely useless hero and get stomped by 80% of the other characters or swtich to a character I don't like.

Funnier char in the game is the kensei hands down. But thanks to ubisoft is another trash hero.

FootlessRhino
05-24-2017, 06:39 PM
Lets just take here what you said.

"Centurion kick does have recovery time, it's a free GB if they don't follow it up with a heavy. if they do you can interrupt it with a light attack"

Thats right, so their punishment is 10/15 damage if you are fast enough.

But whats happens if they actually start their combo ?


Half hp gone



In that case, high reward, low risk = Unbalanced.

if you dodge the kick you don't have to worry about the risk because there's none. dodge + light will land all the time, dodge + GB will work only if they don't follow up with the heavy and dodge + parry will work all the time, but you won't be able to punish the kick if they don't do the heavy. you gotta read your opponent in that sense, but generally dodge kick + light will always punish Cent guaranteed no matter what his follow up is or if he doesn't do one.

Netcode_err_404
05-24-2017, 06:42 PM
if you dodge the kick you don't have to worry about the risk because there's none. dodge + light will land all the time, dodge + GB will work only if they don't follow up with the heavy and dodge + parry will work all the time, but you won't be able to punish the kick if they don't do the heavy. you gotta read your opponent in that sense, but generally dodge kick + light will always punish Cent guaranteed no matter what his follow up is or if he doesn't do one.


With LB you can't. Light is too slow, and you cannot gb

And with shugoki is extreme hard to dodge it.

T_Sesh
05-24-2017, 06:44 PM
Any character should have no problem fighting a shinobi (not addressing Centurion, as I haven't fought enough of them), as all characters have invincibility frames at the beginning of the dodge, no matter how fat you are. That said, it is of course easier to dodge with some characters over others if only because they get more distance. The key to fighting the shinobi is to let them initiate - they will almost always initiate with the kick or the ranged attack.

For the kick - dodge the kick, then wait. They will almost always follow up with the heavy, or some times the ranged gb, both of which, when countered, drag him to the ground, allowing you a free heavy.

For the ranged attack - same as after the kick. Counter the heavy or the gb and they will be dragged to the ground. If they did it from max range however, you may not be able to reach them in time admittedly.

Most characters can 2-3 shot a shinobi. Any one mistake they make basically means death, and it doesn't matter how slow you are if you drag them to the ground right in front of you. If they start to turtle or run away, there's not much you can do obviously, as with most characters, but it means you keep the point for your team (assuming you're playing dominion).

Netcode_err_404
05-24-2017, 06:54 PM
Any character should have no problem fighting a shinobi (not addressing Centurion, as I haven't fought enough of them), as all characters have invincibility frames at the beginning of the dodge, no matter how fat you are. That said, it is of course easier to dodge with some characters over others if only because they get more distance. The key to fighting the shinobi is to let them initiate - they will almost always initiate with the kick or the ranged attack.

For the kick - dodge the kick, then wait. They will almost always follow up with the heavy, or some times the ranged gb, both of which, when countered, drag him to the ground, allowing you a free heavy.

For the ranged attack - same as after the kick. Counter the heavy or the gb and they will be dragged to the ground. If they did it from max range however, you may not be able to reach them in time admittedly.

Most characters can 2-3 shot a shinobi. Any one mistake they make basically means death, and it doesn't matter how slow you are if you drag them to the ground right in front of you. If they start to turtle or run away, there's not much you can do obviously, as with most characters, but it means you keep the point for your team (assuming you're playing dominion).



YEs if the shinobi is the prince of the bads. If he is not, RIP.

DrExtrem
05-24-2017, 06:55 PM
Not only the slow ones.

Most heroes are having a hard time dealing with safe moves. The slow ones are only the obvious ones

Knight_Raime
05-24-2017, 07:06 PM
Yeah as a conq v shin you're basically. sol. but thats less of a shin design issue and more conq being poorly designed. you posess the ability to dodge his kick and bash for a light. beyond that if you block they heavy after the kick you get a gb as the conq.

both cent and shin have to que the heavy during their kick. blocking cents heavy as conq also gets you a gb.
unsure if this trick i used as a conq still works. youd start going into full guard as th unblockable bash hits you. when its done you should still be in full block preventing a follow up and in this case a gb if they followed it wwith a heavy.

shins hardest matchup is goki since his armor beats both the kick and the slide letting him trade and get a headbutt wether the shin backflips or not. goki and cent have a nutral match up.

LB would be neutral with shin if his guard switch speed was better. its neutral for cent.

kensei is actually good v both since his dash attack beats thier kicks and a dash light into heavy cancel into another side light tracks shins back flip. hes also got superior block on a dash. giving a free gb.

T_Sesh
05-24-2017, 07:18 PM
YEs if the shinobi is the prince of the bads. If he is not, RIP.

This is how the vast majority of Shinobi players play, as that is how the kit is designed, unless they are spamming light attacks.

FootlessRhino
05-24-2017, 07:24 PM
With LB you can't. Light is too slow, and you cannot gb

And with shugoki is extreme hard to dodge it.

not sure about LB, I don't really play slow characters, but his top light should be fast enough to at least interrupt any follow up. the slowest character I played so far is Centurion, he seems chubby as hell which is weird considering how little HP he has. I'm having trouble dodging stuff with Cent as well, LB bash would likely give Cent as much trouble as his kick against you. maybe dodge into a bash would work, I know Warden and Conq can do that. and Shug has trouble dodging anything in general, it's the least appealing class to me personally.

Duuklah
05-24-2017, 07:38 PM
Lets just take here what you said.

"Centurion kick does have recovery time, it's a free GB if they don't follow it up with a heavy. if they do you can interrupt it with a light attack"

Thats right, so their punishment is 10/15 damage if you are fast enough.

But whats happens if they actually start their combo ?


Half hp gone



In that case, high reward, low risk = Unbalanced.

Correct. Not balanced and not fun!

I dodged a Cent kick last night and tried to GB and ate a heavy... WTF man? ZERO recovery time. If I miss a sweep on my Valk im going for a ride man!

FootlessRhino
05-24-2017, 07:43 PM
Correct. Not balanced and not fun!

I dodged a Cent kick last night and tried to GB and ate a heavy... WTF man? ZERO recovery time. If I miss a sweep on my Valk im going for a ride man!

that's because it's part of the chain. chains don't have recovery time. if he ends the chain after missing the kick, there are recovery frames and it's a free GB. if he continues the chain, your GB becomes automatically obsolete. Generally, you should always assume they're going to do the follow up and punish that instead, unless you've got a good read on your opponent and definitely know he won't do the follow up if he missed the kick.

Lyskir
05-24-2017, 07:51 PM
Correct. Not balanced and not fun!

I dodged a Cent kick last night and tried to GB and ate a heavy... WTF man? ZERO recovery time. If I miss a sweep on my Valk im going for a ride man!

as a raider i can at least punish a centurion kick but when i dodge a shinobi dash kick and try to gb they just counter gb or double light....

ShonM93
05-24-2017, 08:34 PM
Well, for me (as a Conq main) shino and cent are not realy a problem, yes you can't realy attack shino, but come on, Conq is the turtle king, it's pretty easy to beat Shino down, Cent too.

sif084
05-24-2017, 10:46 PM
Kensei main here. I eat shins all day. easy fodder. you can trade with hyper armor, and if you GB, massive dmg mix up options

razabak10mm
05-24-2017, 11:37 PM
Well us Raiders still have axe hump so we got that going for us. Which is nice.

l8knight347
05-25-2017, 12:12 AM
no.

pancakerz
05-25-2017, 12:18 AM
I've been playing Shinobi since he came out yesterday, and I have to say it''s not entirely his fault for turtling. He's built as a ranged character, and one mistake means huge punishment with his low hp.

Although in the season pass week, I found shugoki to be a good ninja stomper due to hyper armor. Even without that, just cgb those ranged gb's and ninja's toast. watch for a backflip, then cgb/parry. His primary chain requires either 2 heavies in a row (good luck), or a ranged gb. Though I may be biased since I don't really use the kick > heavy because I've heard people don't like it. so maybe a nerf is in order for that move.

Netcode_err_404
05-25-2017, 12:22 AM
not sure about LB, I don't really play slow characters, but his top light should be fast enough to at least interrupt any follow up. the slowest character I played so far is Centurion, he seems chubby as hell which is weird considering how little HP he has. I'm having trouble dodging stuff with Cent as well, LB bash would likely give Cent as much trouble as his kick against you. maybe dodge into a bash would work, I know Warden and Conq can do that. and Shug has trouble dodging anything in general, it's the least appealing class to me personally.

The dodge is too slow, they can block it. Unless you dodge > shove, but they can dodge the shove and take a free hit/gb

CeIasun
05-25-2017, 02:27 AM
I endured this several matches as a conqueror, and when I talked apparently situation is very similar for LB too. I dont know others, maybe Nobishi and Kensei might have a bit easier time due to their longer reach of attacks.

Here is the problem;

I fought several Shinobis 1v1 for objective control or Elimination.

There is absolutely no options I have that allows me to initiate fight without being %100 punished for it. Even trying to close on him cautiously is pointless since he can get out before I can corner him to a distance where he would be in my attack or GB range. He is always out of my reach.

So I wait for him to initiate attack and I try to counter it. And real problem starts here; IF I start to win, they just stay out of my reach and turtle.
Never let me get close enough for a GB/Attack yet not attacking, but still keeping me in range of their dash>dash>kick



Every other class has to be one dash away from me if they want to pose threat. And the ones who pose a threat from a further range has lower mobility options. Shinobi poses threat from much further and he is literally impossible to catch and attack if doesnt want to fight but still pose a threat.

At that point I have 2 options only;

1. Try go YOLO and get punished for an attempt that will fail.

2. Leave the objective and one of below
2.1 Lose objective
2.2 Get caught from behind since he can catch you at will with super sprint / range GB


Also something similar happens in XvX, where if he starts to lose you have to let him go and turn to someone else because there is literally no way you can catch/reach him. But he will keep posing a threat to you and your team.



I am already salty asf for both Centurion and Shinobi's kicks having no recovery time on missing where they go immediately to their next superfast attack; but never being able to catch shinobis once they start to lose and turtle is the most annoying thing.

PK/Oroichis were also fast if they wanted to run away, but that's the thing. They had to run away, not stay safe but still pose threat.

Well I must say, if you can't trick something with 80 HP to make a mistake and punish him for that for good, yeah you probebly deserve to die that game. (I'm not trying to be rude, or trolling or whatever negative). Sure one thing I edmit some shins abuse the kick. But I have met decent players even conquors that can actuelly deal with that and even punish me if I'm not carefull.

Mia.Nora
05-25-2017, 02:43 AM
Well, for me (as a Conq main) shino and cent are not realy a problem, yes you can't realy attack shino, but come on, Conq is the turtle king, it's pretty easy to beat Shino down, Cent too.


Well I must say, if you can't trick something with 80 HP to make a mistake and punish him for that for good, yeah you probebly deserve to die that game. (I'm not trying to be rude, or trolling or whatever negative). Sure one thing I edmit some shins abuse the kick. But I have met decent players even conquors that can actuelly deal with that and even punish me if I'm not carefull.

If you had actually read, you would know that I can punish them when they attack. Not always but enough to beat them.

Problem starts after I start to beat them. They just stop attacking and wait for me to go on offense. If you claim conqueror/LB has options to actually go on offensive vs a turtling Shinobi staying out of reach, both of you are blatantly lying.

CeIasun
05-25-2017, 03:24 AM
If you had actually read, you would know that I can punish them when they attack. Not always but enough to beat them.

Problem starts after I start to beat them. They just stop attacking and wait for me to go on offense. If you claim conqueror/LB has options to actually go on offensive vs a turtling Shinobi staying out of reach, both of you are blatantly lying.

Dear Mia.Nora,

First of there is no need for this kinda additude. ''actuelly read'', or ''both of you are blatantly lying'' try to respond more in an adulty fasion.


Because people don't agree with with your point of vieuw, critizising them in a negatieve way is a behavior of someone that can't ecknolege to have seem to figured out how to deal with a certain sitiation, even not willingly to try to find out and is just looking for a cheap non-productive way out.

That's my poin't....

TheMalakith
05-25-2017, 03:38 AM
Well I must say, if you can't trick something with 80 HP to make a mistake and punish him for that for good, yeah you probebly deserve to die that game. (I'm not trying to be rude, or trolling or whatever negative). Sure one thing I edmit some shins abuse the kick. But I have met decent players even conquors that can actuelly deal with that and even punish me if I'm not carefull.

Shinobi has 90Hp, not 80.

CoyoteXStarrk
05-25-2017, 03:53 AM
Agree 100%


It seems like the majority of players prefer to play faster more agile heroes so the slower guys like the Conqueror (Especially him) get left in the dust in 1v1 fights. You spend half the time basically just trying guess where you need to block and the other half getting smacked across the face.

SnugglesIV
05-25-2017, 12:21 PM
Any character should have no problem fighting a shinobi (not addressing Centurion, as I haven't fought enough of them), as all characters have invincibility frames at the beginning of the dodge, no matter how fat you are. That said, it is of course easier to dodge with some characters over others if only because they get more distance. The key to fighting the shinobi is to let them initiate - they will almost always initiate with the kick or the ranged attack.

For the kick - dodge the kick, then wait. They will almost always follow up with the heavy, or some times the ranged gb, both of which, when countered, drag him to the ground, allowing you a free heavy.

For the ranged attack - same as after the kick. Counter the heavy or the gb and they will be dragged to the ground. If they did it from max range however, you may not be able to reach them in time admittedly.

Most characters can 2-3 shot a shinobi. Any one mistake they make basically means death, and it doesn't matter how slow you are if you drag them to the ground right in front of you. If they start to turtle or run away, there's not much you can do obviously, as with most characters, but it means you keep the point for your team (assuming you're playing dominion).

Aggressive Shinobis aren't a problem. Some characters (like Centurion) can trade heavies by landing a heavy before the kick connects, and come up on top because of Shinobi's terrible health pool. However, a defensive/turtling Shinobi IS a problem. If a Shinobi is willing to wait until you try to engage on him, then you will always lose that fight. He can keep his distance and use ranged GB if you try to close the gap with dodges, he can interrupt most attacks with light-free light combo and backflip to safety, and he can always use the double dash kick to finish you off when you are low. There's literally nothing you can do if the Shinobi does nothing but stare lovingly into your eyes for all eternity.

Mia.Nora
05-25-2017, 01:01 PM
Aggressive Shinobis aren't a problem. Some characters (like Centurion) can trade heavies by landing a heavy before the kick connects, and come up on top because of Shinobi's terrible health pool. However, a defensive/turtling Shinobi IS a problem. If a Shinobi is willing to wait until you try to engage on him, then you will always lose that fight. He can keep his distance and use ranged GB if you try to close the gap with dodges, he can interrupt most attacks with light-free light combo and backflip to safety, and he can always use the double dash kick to finish you off when you are low. There's literally nothing you can do if the Shinobi does nothing but stare lovingly into your eyes for all eternity.

Finally someone who gets it.

All the people keep saying 'dodge the kick, punish the kick'

That's the problem after you do it twice they just charge up their range and stare at you just waiting you to do commit to an attack doomed to fail, then dodge away to safety if you get too close.

Netcode_err_404
05-25-2017, 02:16 PM
Finally someone who gets it.

All the people keep saying 'dodge the kick, punish the kick'

That's the problem after you do it twice they just charge up their range and stare at you just waiting you to do commit to an attack doomed to fail, then dodge away to safety if you get too close.

Even if you manage to counter their kicks, they will start ( a lot of them are actually already abusing it) the oni cheese run 2.0. xD

Halvtand
05-25-2017, 03:56 PM
I have felt the arse-end of this several times. Conq may not be my main, but I do play that one quite a lot and with the introduction of these new characters it seems to me like the final nail has been slammed into the coffin that is Conqueror. For heaven's sake, the centurion is basically designed to kill conq. The fact that it can simply bypass the one thing that conq could use (turtle with superior block) and get some follow up from both attack types while the conq can't even dodge-attack or get a guaranteed GB from parry... Yeah, that hero is far below bottom tier now.