PDA

View Full Version : F4U



Obi_Kwiet
07-25-2004, 12:39 PM
Did you know the F4U Corsair had a 20:1 kill/death ratio? I wonder if this was due to the pilotā's skills or the planeā's performance or both. It could have something to do with the Zero being obsolete by the war's end too.

Obi_Kwiet
07-25-2004, 12:39 PM
Did you know the F4U Corsair had a 20:1 kill/death ratio? I wonder if this was due to the pilotā's skills or the planeā's performance or both. It could have something to do with the Zero being obsolete by the war's end too.

Latico
07-25-2004, 01:00 PM
Most likely both plus the inexperience of the IJ pilots towards the end of the war.

fordfan25
07-25-2004, 02:46 PM
im sure the hit and run tactics help also. the zero was just to slow to keep up with fighters like the cosair and hellcat.

VW-IceFire
07-25-2004, 03:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Obi_Kwiet:
Did you know the F4U Corsair had a 20:1 kill/death ratio? I wonder if this was due to the pilotā's skills or the planeā's performance or both. It could have something to do with the Zero being obsolete by the war's end too.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Keep in mind that most Corsair tactics involved diving from higher altitude on unsuspecting formations and destroying or damaging most if the pass through.

The Corsairs superior speed, dive, and climb as well as pilot skill and those sort of factors lead to its kill ratio. Don't blow it too far out of proportion. Still an impressive figure and a significant accomplishment.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/tmv-sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

Yellonet
07-25-2004, 03:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Obi_Kwiet:
Did you know the F4U Corsair had a 20:1 kill/death ratio? I wonder if this was due to the pilotā's skills or the planeā's performance or both. It could have something to do with the Zero being obsolete by the war's end too.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This was mainly due to superior numbers and probably better pilots.


- Yellonet

Obi_Kwiet
07-25-2004, 07:38 PM
I think the F4U and I'm preety sure the F6F could out turn the Zero. It's pretty widly accepted that the Zero was obsolete at the war's end. Since the Zero had no armor I don't think it would be hard to kill onece you had it in your sights.

VW-IceFire
07-25-2004, 07:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Obi_Kwiet:
I think the F4U and I'm preety sure the F6F could out turn the Zero. It's pretty widly accepted that the Zero was obsolete at the war's end. Since the Zero had no armor I don't think it would be hard to kill onece you had it in your sights.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The only way that was possible was at 400mph. Then both of them would be able to out turn the Zero. Sure...try it in a P-47 and you can get similar results.

At 250mph the Zero can out turn any of the USN birds.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/tmv-sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

Farkitt_
07-25-2004, 07:48 PM
Actually I believe it was 11:1, or was that after Korea? was it used in Korea?


FLYING MY AIRCRAFT:
"C O U N T R Y GAL"
http://www.owensvalleyhistory.com/pinups1/elvgren8_thmb.jpg

Dawg-of-death
07-25-2004, 11:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Farkitt_:
Actually I believe it was 11:1, or was that after Korea? was it used in Korea?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I dont think so...........

Bad-MF(Mongrel Fighter) AKA .......Dawg-of-death

Rhavin_
07-26-2004, 01:19 AM
The Corsair was most definately used in Korea, but they were the later models only. Used for ground attack, iirc some had wing-mounted RADAR as well for interception roles.

sugaki
07-26-2004, 02:06 AM
Going to start a ruckus by US fanboys, but oh well.

Both US and Japanese reports on losses were exaggerrated--take a Japanese account of any battle, match it with the US account and you'll see both sides report a higher number of kills, which don't match the opposing side's reported losses. People will undoubtedly bring up how reporting individual kills for Japanese pilots was discouraged, but we're talking about group kills, which is a different matter.

Furthermore, kamikazes, G4Ms were easy kills, as well as A6Ms with novice pilots, adding to the high attrition on the Japanese side.

F4U and F6F outturning the Zero? My goodness. US tests on the Koga Zero stated that the Zero could turn 1.5 times better than the F6F and F4U at around 200 kts.

And just in case there's some insecure US flyboys, yes the F4U is better than the Zero--hopefully that'll stem the inevitable vacuous backlash of replies.

ZG77_Nagual
07-26-2004, 08:25 AM
rgr that - at high speeds (I think above about 250-270k) they did outturn the zero - and majorly outroll it. But at low speeds nothing the USA flew could touch it.
My uncle flew corsairs in Korea. I've seen an account of one shooting down a mig 15 - and also of dogfights between corsairs and Yak 9s.

Chuck_Older
07-26-2004, 10:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sugaki:
Going to start a ruckus by US fanboys, but oh well.

.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you have a point, make it. You don't need cr@p like the above to do it.

*****************************
Killers in America work seven days a week
~ Clash

Tater-SW-
07-26-2004, 11:04 AM
Most US planes, particularly later in the war could out turn and out roll a zeke---it's just a matter of the speed. Slow speeds, the zeke dominates.

All pilots' kill claims are exaggerated, the question is by how much, and if a given country had a tendancy to overreport at a greater rate than others (you need to know this to make useful comparisons).

wherever possible, the best solution is to use a side's own loss rates, not their claims.

tater

sugaki
07-26-2004, 11:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sugaki:
Going to start a ruckus by US fanboys, but oh well.

.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you have a point, make it. You don't need cr@p like the above to do it.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Call it a preemptive strike. Too many ill-thought out posts. It's "cr@p" that's in every single thread trying to make arguments out of nothing that are tiresome. Heck, ppl even started to get into heated arguments over how the PF Logo looked.

jpatrick62
07-26-2004, 12:47 PM
Take a historical event, wait 60 years for all the combatants to get old, and you have room for historical revisionism and "truth stretching." Many people debate the merits of one fighter versus another, trying to extrapolate data from performance figures given by computer simulations. However, there is real data taken from the war by the men who flew the birds themselves and it more acurately reflects the tone and demands of the time, as well as the machinery. For the US Navy, the Patuxent Naval Air station did flight test comparisons on the P51, FW190, F6F, F4U and others. In addition, the 1944 fighter conference reflects the views of fighter test pilots from around the world. The F4U is not looked upon by many as a good or even great plane, and many seem to downplay its kill record or performance. But it bears to keep in mind that when the war was hot, and lives were on the line, test pilots voted it the best carrier plane in production.

Penguin_PFF
07-26-2004, 01:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sugaki:

Call it a preemptive strike. Too many ill-thought out posts. It's "cr@p" that's in every single thread trying to make arguments out of nothing that are tiresome. Heck, ppl even started to get into heated arguments over how the PF Logo looked.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

welcum 2 the intrenet in the 21st century!!! lol here ur in a place were we hav stoopid arguments all day NEwAyz nuthin u do will evr change it

Reading the 20-page poo-flinging festivals on these boards sometimes makes me think we NEED a good war. :P

Hades_Dragon
07-26-2004, 02:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The F4U is not looked upon by many as a good or even great plane, and many seem to downplay its kill record or performance. But it bears to keep in mind that when the war was hot, and lives were on the line, test pilots voted it the best carrier plane in production. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've seen the performance charts of all 4 of those aircraft, and the F4U out flies them all.

The F4U and P51 are on equal terms when it comes to speed until 25,000 feet where the Mustang only begins to get a slight advantage. But at any altitude, the F4U was able to out climb the P51. And contrare to what most believe, the F4U is MORE MANUVERABLE than a Mustang. The Corsair has much lighter stick forces, is more nimble, and can roll quicker than a Mustang. Not too mention it has much better low speed characteristics, which of course you would have with any Naval Aircraft compared to one restricted to land bases. The Corsair was also rated as the better gun platform.

As for the Fw190, the F4U and Butcher Bird are on equal terms at the deck with the 190 having a small advantage as altitude increases. But both the F4U and F6F can outmanuver it fairly eaily. It was even stated that there is NO manuver a FW190 can do that a F6F or F4U cannot, and with much more ease.

With the F6F and F4U, the speed and climb advantages of the Corsair are clearly evident. But it was also quoted that the F4U was favored in manuveribility between the two even with Butch O'Hare at the controls of the Hellcat.

I am in now way putting down the performance of any of these aircraft, all 4 of them were some of the highest performance aircraft of the war. But I constantly see other aircraft said to be better than the F4U when the Corsair outperforms them. All great fighters are always compared to the Mustang. Its always "The P51 was the greatest fighter of the war" or "So and so fighter was good, but not comparible to the P51" Well the truth is the F4U is the superior aircraft in air to air combat. It's not me saying this, it's statistics.

Performmance Charts Here (http://web.cetlink.net/~howardds/id3.htm)

johann_thor
07-26-2004, 03:44 PM
http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/rdunn/tuluvu/tuluvu_main.htm

sugaki
07-26-2004, 04:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Take a historical event, wait 60 years for all the combatants to get old, and you have room for historical revisionism and "truth stretching." However, there is real data taken from the war by the men who flew the birds themselves and it more acurately reflects the tone and demands of the time, as well as the machinery. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't get me wrong, the F4U was a fighter to be dreaded by the Japanese, and was a far superior plane to the Zero.

But the 20:1 kill ratio from what I understand is the product of summing up all the kill/loss records on the US side, which aren't the most accurate. Both sides regualarly reported more victories than what the opposing side reported as loses.

-Aki

Chuck_Older
07-26-2004, 04:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sugaki:


Call it a preemptive strike. Too many ill-thought out posts. It's "cr@p" that's in every single thread trying to make arguments out of nothing that are tiresome. Heck, ppl even started to get into heated arguments over how the PF Logo looked.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, I won't, because it's bull and you know it.

You post what you want to post, like everyone else. Don't try to sell the 'every other post is like that' garbage to me because I ain't buying. You can choose to not belittle other people because they might be from the US or are admirers of anything from the US, but you don't, and it's not because anyone else does it, it's because you want to.

You are right about the Zeke, so why can't you just leave it at that? Calling somebody a "US fanboy" doesn't add anything or make you more right.

I'm here posting things you don't like, but do you see me using the most vague national or racial slur? I'm a proud American, but do you see me reacting to your anti-US bull with comments about where you're from? No. I don't need to. Your posts are borderline racist whether you know it or not. You're lucky I'm not a mod, I'd be editting your posts by adding sentences to them like, "I'm sugaki; I wear my skidmark fruit-of-the-looms on the outside of my pants" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

You're quite knowledgable about these things sugaki, about what plane did what and where, I've read many of your posts. But you slide in a lot of little remarks now and then that really p!ss people off and you know what you're doing.

*****************************
Killers in America work seven days a week
~ Clash

sugaki
07-26-2004, 05:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>You can choose to not belittle other people because they might be from the US or are admirers of anything from the US.
&lt;snip&gt;
I'm a proud American, but do you see me reacting to your anti-US bull with comments about where you're from? No. I don't need to. Your posts are borderline racist whether you know it or not.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

When I talk of "US fanboys" I'm referring to those who think their favorite plane is the best plane in the war, and blindly blow off or criticize anybody who has an opposing point.

You like the F4F, great. F4U? Great. I think US airplanes are admirable, when did I say they weren't??? But I go insane however when I reply to posts that make ridiculous assertions that go anywhere from "F4F is superior to Zero" to "F4Us dominated over every single IJN airplane." It's completely without historical justification. Hence I call 'em "US fanboys."

If you think it's racist, I apologize, it wasn't meant to be. But I find many of the most ignorant, baseless posts to be from those who have a fanatical attachment toward US planes, and coined the word "US fanboys." I just won't use the phrase then.

SkyChimp
07-26-2004, 05:23 PM
You mean the Corsair WASN'T the best plane of the war, bar none?

Regards,
http://members.cox.net/us.fighters/signature.jpg

heywooood
07-26-2004, 10:25 PM
No - sugaki means he hates Us fanboys. My fan is on right now.. it is summer after all.

The Corsair was as good as Chuck Olders perception of our friend sugaki. Knowledgeable but with a red, round chip on the shoulder.



http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v250/heywooood/ac_32_1.jpg
"Check your guns"

[This message was edited by heywooood on Mon July 26 2004 at 09:42 PM.]

B1izard
07-26-2004, 10:47 PM
The kill ratio for the Corsair was 11:1. I think the Hellcat had a 19:1 ratio.

[This message was edited by B1izard on Tue July 27 2004 at 12:14 AM.]

eiffel68
07-27-2004, 08:53 AM
I've also read those ratio numbers in Tillman's books.

http://www.battleships-cruisers.co.uk/images/antn45.jpg

Loki-PF
07-27-2004, 02:07 PM
Sugaki,

I find the "US Fanboy" epithet insulting also. You talk about a fanatical devotion to a certain plane type in the face of all reasoning and facts.....

How is this a unique trait of Americans? Are there not enthusiasts for all stripes and colors including Japanese marks? Of course there are.

You object to ignorant posts in a public game forum? Oh PUH-LEASE!! What endeavor in life will you undertake that won't have a strata of expertise.

There are two ways one can deal with this phenomenon.
1) Use reason and fact in an attempt to educdate and convey your point. 2) Call names and denegrate others as fanboys or ignoramuses because they don't have your level of expertise.

Obi_Kwiet
07-27-2004, 09:34 PM
I don't know why people always instist thyat any impressive US data is propaganda. Germany or especilly Russia would have MUCH more propagana than the US ever would. Communism and lies/propaganda go hand in hand. And preaty much any system that has total controll over it's people.

jpatrick62
07-28-2004, 06:58 PM
I'm not a real big fan of kill ratios when comparing aircraft. However, I do believe that we can get a good idea of the aircraft when looking at comparitive studies done at the time of the war.

For the US Navy, the Patuxent Naval Air station did flight test comparisons on the P51, FW190, F6F, F4U and others. In addition, the 1944 fighter conference reflects the views of fighter test pilots from around the world. The F4U is not looked upon by many as a good or even great plane, and many seem to downplay its kill record or performance. But it bears to keep in mind that when the war was hot, and lives were on the line, Allied test pilots from all manufacturers voted it the best carrier plane in production.

Figures taken without direct head to head comparison are weak because they are possibly taken on different days, whether conditions, test pilots, etc.

sugaki
07-29-2004, 12:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>How is this a unique trait of Americans? Are there not enthusiasts for all stripes and colors including Japanese marks? Of course there are.

There are two ways one can deal with this phenomenon.
1) Use reason and fact in an attempt to educdate and convey your point. 2) Call names and denegrate others as fanboys or ignoramuses because they don't have your level of expertise.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, "fanboy" is inflammatory I won't use it then.

However, it's one thing to be an enthusiast, another to have a blatantly biased view towards US planes. Which I've seen in countless posts. I have no problems with a lot of people who think F4Us or F6Fs is the best fighter in the war. It's largely true, and there's valid arguments to be made for that assertion. But there's a lot of unqualified blanket statements like "US pilots were just better" and the similar lot that are ridiculous.

"Educate" doesn't seem to work, as I've repeated in countless points the same points, but they keep getting brought up in new posts.

Why do I single out US plane fans? Because on this board the US aircraft fans are the most blatant.

I'm not saying all US plane fans are like this, but there are a few vocal posters that are--many more than Pro-Japanese posters. Heck, I get painted as pro-Japanese just for disagreeing with people.

Tvrdi
07-29-2004, 01:12 AM
http://server6.uploadit.org/files/gnomisa-AmericanMan.jpg

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

Yellonet
07-29-2004, 10:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I find the "US Fanboy" epithet insulting also. You talk about a fanatical devotion to a certain plane type in the face of all reasoning and facts.....

How is this a unique trait of Americans? Are there not enthusiasts for all stripes and colors including Japanese marks? Of course there are. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Of course there are fanboys of all countries, but he meant fanboys of US, therefore he wrote "US Fanboy" instead of e.g. "Jpn Fanboy".

Please don't make this into another "bearcat thread" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


- Yellonet

Yellonet
07-29-2004, 10:27 AM
How exactly is kill ratios calculated?


- Yellonet

Loki-PF
07-29-2004, 01:27 PM
Sugaki,

Thanks for replying.... Education and putting forward an educated position backed by facts does work, just not on all the people here. Believe it or not there are people here with open minds who want to exchange ideas and are open to learning.

Yes of course there are also people who are close minded or inflamatory and just itching for a flame war. Why tailor your pitch to these? Nothing you say (pre-emptive or not) will likey change these people's points of view.

Rather take an open stance and present your point with facts and little invective. I have found that even though you may not come to agreement with those who are debating with you, you will earn their respect.

Best regards
Loki

SkyChimp
07-29-2004, 05:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tvrdi:
http://server6.uploadit.org/files/gnomisa-AmericanMan.jpg

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm concerned you are perusing sites that host pictures like this.

Regards,
http://members.cox.net/us.fighters/signature.jpg

Tvrdi
07-30-2004, 01:50 AM
Im concerned if average us guy see himself like on this pic....

KIMURA
07-30-2004, 07:20 AM
In the course of shooting down 2,140 enemy aircraft, only 189 Corsairs were lost in combat, a ratio of aboutn 11:1. That means far away from that 20:1 claimed by the thread launcher. Keep also in mind that the Cors hadn't that great effect at the beginning of it's introducing into combat. At Cuadalcanal til end of 43, the kill/loss ratio of the Corsair were about slighlty better than fair. The far better ratio occured first with more Corsairs avaible to the units and the bleeding out of experienced pilots on Japanese side. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I have to add, that these 189 Corsairs lost in action, were pure losses. That means started and failed to return, not included in that figure are losses occured due to write off of landed Corsairs with suffered irreparable damages. (free after Churchil: Don't trust in statistics, you didn't manipulate by yourself.) http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif

Kimura

[This message was edited by KIMURA on Fri July 30 2004 at 06:52 AM.]

Kannaksen_hanu
07-30-2004, 07:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Obi_Kwiet:
I don't know why people always instist thyat any impressive US data is propaganda. Germany or especilly Russia would have MUCH more propagana than the US ever would. Communism and lies/propaganda go hand in hand. And preaty much any system that has total controll over it's people.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The best propaganda is the one you cannot see as a propaganda, but you believe you have figured it out by yourself. For example from "neutral" and "objective" news-flash. Its not what you see, but how it is shown to you. And when you have figured it out by yourself, it is the absolute truth and you have swallowed the hook completely.

ZG77_Nagual
07-30-2004, 09:08 AM
Insightful http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

It's the propoganda you dont see. Like the current use of autosuggestion in politics here in the usa lately - where opinions are insinuated as unstated premises. It works as long as people are passive brained.

As for airplanes. I took up a ki84 last night ( no choice - it was that or a zero on the server)a plane in which I have, possibly, 15 minutes total time in. I regularly shoot down ki84s in a p39n1 - but it's gotta bit the pilots. First flight I shot down an Il2 and a p51 - the mustang had speed an alt going in and I was eating dinner, watching TV and supervising my kids while flying. I even got up to get a glass of water when the mustang was extending. The thing is such a superb airplane that you can reverse almost any situation. What's more - I think outta the box - with factories and materials and all working properly - it probably really was that good. Good thing theres not alot of good online pilots flying em.

As for feelin insulted - you can't insult me - I'm a freakin moron. I like the american planes because you have to work at em. Still working on the P38. The late 109s, KI, las and whatnot are just too good for me. I don't deserve em.

RAF74_Buzzsaw
07-30-2004, 12:35 PM
Salute

Once again we are seeing more of the same arguments from some on the Axis side. Ie. the U.S. aircraft were lousy, they only got their kill numbers because of overwhelming numbers on the U.S. side and poor pilots on the Axis side.

Those elements were a factor, but there were many instances where experienced Japanese pilots had numbers advantages and lost.

If the US planes are modelled correctly, they should be very good competition for the Japanese.

And if for example a F4U-4 Corsair is modelled, as it should be, since it saw service, then you will see a dominant aircraft.

The Corsair should have the following models included since they saw service in significant numbers:

F4U-1 (early model with handling vices)

Next generation with handling improved:

F4U-1C (4 20mm Cannon)
F4U-1D

3rd Generation with 2500 hp engine and top speed of 440+ mph

F4U-4

[This message was edited by RAF74BuzzsawXO on Sat July 31 2004 at 10:30 AM.]

Yellonet
07-30-2004, 01:26 PM
BTW, Corsair's wasn't based on carriers untill April '44. News to me anyway.


- Yellonet