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BM357_TinMan
04-15-2004, 07:49 AM
S~ all,

In response to the simply breath taking pictures of a FPS game posted on this board in another thread, I have this bit of $.02 to add. I posted it on my own thread as to not sound like I was dogging on another guys thread. That is NOT my intention.

I, as much as anybody, would simply LOVE to see this type of realistic, visual representation of the world in a flight/combat flight sim. However, before that kind of visual accuracy can be produced in a flight simulator, we need CPU's that run at least 64bit and probably 8 to 10 times that calculating power that they now have. Not to mention the type of memory and the FSB bandwidth along with the monster GPU neccessary.

What IS attainable at this time, and what I would LOVE to have implemented into the next edition of 1C Maddox's great games, are things that would have more to do with SIMULATION...

For example:
1. The ability to switch fuel tanks
2. Magnetic declination
3. Gyroscopic drift
4. Progressive, realistic, dynamic weather (including, and certainly not limited to, barometric pressure that forces the adjustment of the altimeter, realistic turbulence, etc.)
5. Realistic Map with bases/airfields that are historically accurate and accurately represented. (i.e. Lieston, England; Avveville, France, etc.)
6. Separate brake axis' for left and right brakes
7. Flaps that have realistic degrees of extensions in each plane
8. Cowl flaps on an axis
9. Mixture that actually HAS to be leaned/enriched

There are more, but this is a representation of what I would like to see. This is a great game and I applaud 1C Maddox for their work and their devotion that keeps them updating it. But with out certain specific aspects (some of which I've noted above) it is not much more than an exemplary game and doesn't quite reach "simulation" level.

For this reason, before more planes, before better visuals, I would like to see those aspects that pertain to simulation updated or added.

Thank you for you time,

BM357_TinMan
xo BM357 VFG
www.bm357.com (http://www.bm357.com)

BM357_TinMan
04-15-2004, 07:49 AM
S~ all,

In response to the simply breath taking pictures of a FPS game posted on this board in another thread, I have this bit of $.02 to add. I posted it on my own thread as to not sound like I was dogging on another guys thread. That is NOT my intention.

I, as much as anybody, would simply LOVE to see this type of realistic, visual representation of the world in a flight/combat flight sim. However, before that kind of visual accuracy can be produced in a flight simulator, we need CPU's that run at least 64bit and probably 8 to 10 times that calculating power that they now have. Not to mention the type of memory and the FSB bandwidth along with the monster GPU neccessary.

What IS attainable at this time, and what I would LOVE to have implemented into the next edition of 1C Maddox's great games, are things that would have more to do with SIMULATION...

For example:
1. The ability to switch fuel tanks
2. Magnetic declination
3. Gyroscopic drift
4. Progressive, realistic, dynamic weather (including, and certainly not limited to, barometric pressure that forces the adjustment of the altimeter, realistic turbulence, etc.)
5. Realistic Map with bases/airfields that are historically accurate and accurately represented. (i.e. Lieston, England; Avveville, France, etc.)
6. Separate brake axis' for left and right brakes
7. Flaps that have realistic degrees of extensions in each plane
8. Cowl flaps on an axis
9. Mixture that actually HAS to be leaned/enriched

There are more, but this is a representation of what I would like to see. This is a great game and I applaud 1C Maddox for their work and their devotion that keeps them updating it. But with out certain specific aspects (some of which I've noted above) it is not much more than an exemplary game and doesn't quite reach "simulation" level.

For this reason, before more planes, before better visuals, I would like to see those aspects that pertain to simulation updated or added.

Thank you for you time,

BM357_TinMan
xo BM357 VFG
www.bm357.com (http://www.bm357.com)

Bearcat99
04-15-2004, 08:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BM357_TinMan:
S~ all,

In response to the simply breath taking pictures of a FPS game posted on this board in another thread, I have this bit of $.02 to add. I posted it on my own thread as to not sound like I was dogging on another guys thread. That is NOT my intention.

I, as much as anybody, would simply LOVE to see this type of realistic, visual representation of the world in a flight/combat flight sim. However, before that kind of visual accuracy can be produced in a flight simulator, we need CPU's that run at least 64bit and probably 8 to 10 times that calculating power that they now have. Not to mention the type of memory and the FSB bandwidth along with the monster GPU neccessary.

What IS attainable at this time, and what I would LOVE to have implemented into the next edition of 1C Maddox's great games, are things that would have more to do with SIMULATION...

For example:
1. The ability to switch fuel tanks
2. Magnetic declination
3. Gyroscopic drift
4. Progressive, realistic, dynamic weather (including, and certainly not limited to, barometric pressure that forces the adjustment of the altimeter, realistic turbulence, etc.)
5. Realistic Map with bases/airfields that are historically accurate and accurately represented. (i.e. Lieston, England; Avveville, France, etc.)
6. Separate brake axis' for left and right brakes
7. Flaps that have realistic degrees of extensions in each plane
8. Cowl flaps on an axis
9. Mixture that actually HAS to be leaned/enriched

There are more, but this is a representation of what I would like to see. This is a great game and I applaud 1C Maddox for their work and their devotion that keeps them updating it. But with out certain specific aspects (some of which I've noted above) it is not much more than an exemplary game and doesn't quite reach "simulation" level.

For this reason, before more planes, before better visuals, I would like to see those aspects that pertain to simulation updated or added.

Thank you for you time,

BM357_TinMan
xo BM357 VFG
http://www.bm357.com<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Some of the things are actually in this sim..and I for one consider this a sim not a game and a pretty good one at that. The fuel tank switching thing would be nice and I would like to see the mixture like it was before the 1.21 patch I believe it was.. or at least made toggleable like on the auto pitch feature on planes with pitch. Apparntly many American planes had auto mix but I would like to see it switcable so you can wring every last bit out of your engine... say you are low on fuel..... I would also like to see all the gauges working accuratly which I also think will be in BoB. As far as the seperate brakes although not modelled exactly we can achieve seperate braking simply by braking while hitting the rudder. I can do doughnuts in the dirt. I honestly dont know about the bases but te maps are pretty accurate. I have seen posts from people who live in some of the areas on these maps (except for the fantasy ones of course) and they all say that it is pretty accurate. Dynamic weather would be nice and i think it is coming in BoB. I also disagree with you that a 64 bit system will be needed. Many of the features you mentioned are in other sims...today. Though some of them rent combat sims I see no reason why BoB cannot implement some of the same features. The only reason we dont have some of that in FB is because the whole engine would have had to be reworked which of course makes no sense if BoB is a WIP.

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BaldieJr
04-15-2004, 08:11 AM
Oh, what you want is FS2004 with guns.

All of these things have already been succesfully done on todays hardware. They just haven't been done in FB.

But don't fret, even though FS2004 has greatly outsold FB and is loved by untold numbers of users, FB is still way more fun, dawg.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

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BM357_TinMan
04-15-2004, 08:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BaldieJr:
Oh, what you want is FS2004 with guns.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LoL, Yea, something like that I guess...
It IS a SIM, right?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bearcat99:
also disagree with you that a 64 bit system will be needed. Many of the features you mentioned are in other sims<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, I meant the awesome graphics of that FPS on the the other thread...those types of visuals in a f/s would simply bring any system we have today to a grinding hault.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bearcat99:
As far as the seperate brakes although not modelled exactly we can achieve seperate braking simply by braking while hitting the rudder.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do this all the time mate, however, not exactly the way it's done is it?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bearcat99:
I honestly dont know about the bases but te maps are pretty accurate.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bases are definitely NOT modelled correctly. I don't know about "base position" but there were REAL bases like Lieston (I use that one because I know it and don't know any in Germany/Soviet Union). I don't think that any of the bases in FB directly corralate with any Real bases of the region in which they are modeled in WWII.

As far as the map, the idividual maps may be very accurate, what I was driving at was a large, navacable map from where I could fly a long distance bombing escort from somewhere in England to Berlin...

BM357_TinMan
xo BM357 VFG
www.bm357.com (http://www.bm357.com)

King_Curtis
04-15-2004, 08:26 AM
We already have separate breaks. Press Z or X before pressing B and see what happens...

BM357_TinMan
04-15-2004, 08:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by King_Curtis:
We already have separate breaks. Press Z or X before pressing B and see what happens...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

S~ sir,

Seperate brake AXIS...

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

BM357_TinMan
xo BM357 VFG
www.bm357.com (http://www.bm357.com)

csThor
04-15-2004, 08:38 AM
I am already gathering information on the german part for "Battle of Britain" and I plan to include as many information on their airfields in France as I can gather.

For the current state see here (http://home.arcor.de/csthor).

______________________________

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http://home.arcor.de/csthor/bilder/ubi_sig.jpg </A>

csThor's skins @ Il2skins.com

ELEM
04-15-2004, 09:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BM357_TinMan:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bearcat99:
As far as the seperate brakes although not modelled exactly we can achieve seperate braking simply by braking while hitting the rudder.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do this all the time mate, however, not exactly the way it's done is it?

[QUOTE]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Errr, yes it is! In most cases the braking system on the a/c then was pnuematic and controlled by a hand lever on the control column (eg.Spitfire, Hurricane). Squeeze the lever to apply brakes, push rudder bar in the direction of the required turn to apply braking to that side only. Just as we do it in FB!

I wouldn't join any club that would have ME as member!

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BM357_TinMan
04-15-2004, 09:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ELEM:

Errr, yes it is! In most cases the braking system on the a/c then was pnuematic and controlled by a hand lever on the control column (eg.Spitfire, Hurricane). Squeeze the lever to apply brakes, push rudder bar in the direction of the required turn to apply braking to that side only. Just as we do it in FB!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well then, in those planes where it is actual, then by all means, let it be that way. In planes where there WAS individual toe brakes, model them....sheesh

BM357_TinMan
xo BM357 VFG
www.bm357.com (http://www.bm357.com)

Bearcat99
04-15-2004, 09:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BM357_TinMan:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bearcat99:
also disagree with you that a 64 bit system will be needed. Many of the features you mentioned are in other sims<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, I meant the awesome graphics of that FPS on the the other thread...those types of visuals in a f/s would simply bring any system we have today to a grinding hault.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bearcat99:
I honestly dont know about the bases but te maps are pretty accurate.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bases are definitely NOT modelled correctly. I don't know about "base position" but there were REAL bases like Lieston (I use that one because I know it and don't know any in Germany/Soviet Union). I don't think that any of the bases in FB directly corralate with any Real bases of the region in which they are modeled in WWII.

As far as the map, the idividual maps may be very accurate, what I was driving at was a large, navacable map from where I could fly a long distance bombing escort from somewhere in England to Berlin...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah Im with you on that one.... I also hope the high altitude modeling is better..which it probably will be considering the theatre. It would be nice to be able to fly from London to Berlin and back although in real time it wopuld be an all day mission.

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BM357_TinMan
04-15-2004, 09:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bearcat99:
it wopuld be an all day mission.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Would be!!! LOL

Would be AWESOME and Gruelling...I'd love it. Talk about immersion

BM357_TinMan
xo BM357 VFG
www.bm357.com (http://www.bm357.com)

Chuck_Older
04-15-2004, 10:37 AM
Whoawhoawhoa whoa whoa.

Am I understanding this correctly?

The screenshots of a good looking FPS game are making people nervous about gameplay in the new 1C:Maddox title, "Battle of Britain"?


Steady on, mates, feather back on your sammie, and grab a burton!

How does this correlate to BoB? You're panicking!

*****************************
Get your car outta that gear ~ Clash

willyvic
04-15-2004, 10:45 AM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif ? Where did that come from Chuck?...lol.

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crazyivan1970
04-15-2004, 10:52 AM
BOB will blow you away...things that were limited by the game engine in FB will come to life in BOB... Let`s put it this way... BOB will have the same if not more.. impact on flight sims like IL-2 did back in the day. As far as graphics go, god help your computer http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

V!
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michapma
04-15-2004, 10:52 AM
No Chuck, that's not what he's saying. He's "what-iffing".


I agree that all these things and more would make for an awesome simulator. The problem is that such a simulator simply would not be as popular. We few who would like to see such things implemented in a true combat flight simulator would be enthralled. But the programmers couldn't earn enough off of it. FS 2004 invested in this direction but skimped in other departments. The key has been said, FB is FUN. These other simulation aspects impress, but they aren't the hook that sell game copies.

Incredibly detailed graphics DO impress, however. It's just a question of what we can come up with. Long ago Oleg&crew experimented with putting grass on the ground, but the machines simply couldn't handle it.

There's another limiting aspect in terms of detail. From what I have read, the FPS maps in Call of Duty are LARGE for FPS maps. Yet compared to the FB maps, they are absolutely miniscule. Think about it, walking and driving in a car compared to flying. Do you think even something as big as all of Stalingrad (the town, not the map) is in a FPS shooter? To create maps only the size of the smallest FB maps we have with the kind of quality you see in those FPS games truly boggles the mind.

It's not going to happen any time soon, even with computers 20x as powerful, because of the attention to detail required. Only the real God makes such maps, not a "flight sim god". http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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michapma
04-15-2004, 10:57 AM
I have to admit Ivan's post almost makes me wet my pants. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I expect improved CEM and improved high-alt handling from BoB. I hope beyond hope for improved weather and detailed interaction with ground controllers, it will be essential for a real BoB.

It will be truly interesting to see what Oleg is doing with the new resources available to him. I know he is more aware of all of the various factors that went into that special warfare than us, and he is oh-so-capable. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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Stalker58
04-15-2004, 12:29 PM
As for maps, the map (only one) in LOMAC has more than 180,000 buildings, 50,000,000 trees, 21 incredibly detailed cities, 1,700 towns and villages, 500 bridges, 18 airfields and 8 naval bases and it took full ONE years to make it...

Altitude, speed, manoeuvre and.... CRASH!

michapma
04-15-2004, 12:42 PM
Yes, the LOMAC map is impressive, but down low it doesn't look like this:

http://pcmedia.gamespy.com/pc/image/brothersrelease_041304_000.jpg


This is the thread (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=23110283&m=902103453) that was referred to.

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yarbles67
04-15-2004, 12:44 PM
If BoB had the eye candy of a hollywood movie but retained all the modeling of the current Il-2:FB, I would be happy has hell to jump all over it. For me, graphics and sound are the key elements of immersion. Realistic modeling (flight & damage) is important but not as relevant since I don't know jack about the subject matter. In my opinion, they would be best served to just keep the current flight and damage models as they are (make improvements where there is glowing in-accuracy - I'll leave that to you egg heads and oleg) and totally focus on a new graphics/sound engine. With all the crap at their disposal with dx9+, that game will be simply amazing. Just look at any game that's slated for release in the fall (doom3, hl-2, etc..) and you'll know what I'm talking about. As for sims and how traditionally that haven't been pc friendly, that's just a fact. To oleg's credit, they at least made the game customizable to accomodate a huge myriad of different pc types. Thank about it. I know guys that are using 1.2 ghrtz machines all the way up to 3.4 P4s! Some are even using the new AMD 64bit chips. Sure the more you shift towards the lower end machines the more unplayable it becomes but it's still playable. BoB will be hog - make no mistake about that. BoB will simply be fallowing in the footsteps of those games or sims that came before it. That's why I've already started my pc fund for 2005. I've accepted the fact that I'm a loser and will spend about 2,000 bucks for a new pc simply to play BoB. I've already saved about 550 bucks so I'm well on my way http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

by the way, i'm not sure why folks are overly concerned about intricate map detail like those seen in first person shooters. imho, it would be a waste of valuable resources. most of the time you'll be flying a few hundred miles an hour so how much detail do you expect to see? I would rather them concentrate their limited resources to plane eye candy, cockpit interiors, sky and sound. Remember, they'll have to make compromises along the way and maps should be a no brainer. I currently play with the map settings on medium and it's more than adequate. It looks real to me especially during normal type flying. The only time I have a chance to enjoy the ground is when I've landed and I'm waiting for my squad to RTB. only then do I switch to externals and check out the ground battles and plane skins. the game will have to have trade offs to make it flyable and terrain (ie grass rendering, bricks on buildings, etc..) should be secondary.

[This message was edited by yarbles67 on Thu April 15 2004 at 11:52 AM.]

Spit_Fan
04-15-2004, 01:36 PM
I want to start in a briefing room. Get my orders, walk to my plane, taxi to the runway, fly the mission, and then reverse it all ending back in the debriefing room.

Until I get that. It will just seem like a game. I know this can be done on todays hardware. Why don't they give it to us?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Chuck_Older
04-15-2004, 03:03 PM
I agree, except for the part about walking to the plane, Spit fan.


As far as walking to the plane goes, it seems to me that this would entail simply a "bobbing camera" or a 3rd person view of you walking to a truck (lorry, sorry) or your aircraft (you aren't DangerMan on the way to your crate http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif ), and that would get old really quickly. Then we are IN the aircraft, waiting for the correct serial number plane to pass by (you remembered to write the serial number of the aircraft you must follow on the back of your hand, correct? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ), then we get in line on the right runway (check your hand), and await our take-off time (also on the back of your hand)...oops, forgot time hack...To me, this is as exciting as simulating waiting in line for dinner at the base, or shaving in the morning.

I do, however agree 100% and strongly that we should start in a breifing room, with an authentic breifing. This should be easy to do and photo-realistic. We would get an actual breifing, which shouldn't take very long, and have an option to just "sum up" the breifing, much like the breifing we have now. Then, once we select "continue", after the breifing, we are in-plane. Very much like European Air War's setup, but more sophisticated, I should hope. I liked EAW's flavor very much.

After the mission, we should de-breif, which should entail an actual debreifing of how the mission went- simply could be a checklist of what went wrong and right, and that would be followed by a photo-realistic Kill Claim report. In campaign mode, before the next mission, we would get a kill claim reply of some kind, indicating kills and decorations actually awarded. In this way, we could file for kills we knew we got (Like that Bf-109 was on fire, but my wingman landed a single .303 round on a wing afterward the fact), and then get a notification of what the game says (sorry, wingman gets credit http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif). Then the new breifing starts...Info like this is easy to get, and would add wonderfully to the feel of a combat flight sim.


Also, a way of putting victory tabs or marks on the aircraft if you want them to appear should be IN the sim, not a 3rd party effort. PaintVictories is cool, but FB could do that easy and automatically I should think.

*****************************
Get your car outta that gear ~ Clash

Bearcat99
04-15-2004, 03:17 PM
That would be even better if you could put the pilot picture in the pilot skin... and maybe have like 3 different pilot body types... When you looked around the room from a FP perspective you would see the faces of the other pilots.. like in a FPS. Arent there FPS where you can inset your picture into the skin?

michapma wrote:
I agree that all these things and more would make for an awesome simulator. The problem is that such a simulator simply would not be as popular. We few who would like to see such things implemented in a true combat flight simulator would be enthralled. But the programmers couldn't earn enough off of it. FS 2004 invested in this direction but skimped in other departments. The key has been said, FB is FUN. These other simulation aspects impress, but they aren't the hook that sell game copies.

Incredibly detailed graphics DO impress, however. It's just a question of what we can come up with. Long ago Oleg&crew experimented with putting grass on the ground, but the machines simply couldn't handle it.

There's another limiting aspect in terms of detail. From what I have read, the FPS maps in Call of Duty are LARGE for FPS maps. Yet compared to the FB maps, they are absolutely miniscule. Think about it, walking and driving in a car compared to flying. Do you think even something as big as all of Stalingrad (the town, not the map) is in a FPS shooter? To create maps only the size of the smallest FB maps we have with the kind of quality you see in those FPS games truly boggles the mind.

It's not going to happen any time soon, even with computers 20x as powerful, because of the attention to detail required. Only the real God makes such maps, not a "flight sim god".

I dunno.. who knows what may come down the pike in 2 yrs.

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Spit_Fan
04-15-2004, 03:20 PM
Chuck,

I think we're on the same page here.

I still want to walk to the plane though.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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