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View Full Version : I think Shinobi honestly needs a moderate buff. Using my own player stats here.



SerArthur-Dayne
05-19-2017, 09:46 AM
Im aware the chars have only been out a few days, and I agree that tweaks/buffs shouldnt happen for at least a few weeks so people can acclimatise to the new chars, but Ive already played shinobi to rep 4, and have learnt the class inside out, and feel I have a good idea where I think he ranks in the roster, and id like to share my thoughts about it, feel free to disagree, but I will be using my own player statistics as a talking point.

Using my own player stats here, Ive mainly played two chars - Warden & PK. (and now shinobi)

Warden - rep 13 - K/A/D= 2.65 (K/D= 1.87)
PK- rep 3 - K/A/D= 2.49 (K/D= 1.77)
Shinobi rep 4 - K/A/D= 1.41 (K/D= 0.88)

Im confident I have learnt all of shinobis mixups/ feints and tactics at this stage, and dont struggle to switch between his different combos to try keep my enemy guessing, but I feel ive hit the (my) skill ceiling for this character, or should I say, at this stage I feel like my continued progression with this char has now slowed to a trickle or a stop.

In my opinion, Shinobi is very fun to play, but I dont think this char will be considered for compedative, not by a long shot, and for me, the two main reasons are;

1) Biggest problem is the whole crux of this class revolves around "slinging in & out" of a fight, in order to use his mixups and combos. Problem is experienced players find parrying attacks and CGBing extremely easy. When I play warden, I just bait people into senting out attacks I can parry and punish as it is easy. Countering a GB is quite easy too ( as im sure most of you reading this can agree). Problem is shinobis whole game revolves around constantly sending out these attacks without the ability to feint. Shinobi winning a fight completely rests on the necessity of your enemies inability to perform a parry or CGB. Right now is the best its going to be for shinobi as many havent learnt his timings yet, and its already pointless to use these against many of the people I get matched with as they have zero problems consistently parrying or CGBing my mixups.

2) Health, its just a bit too low. Frankly he dosent dish out the sort of damage to justify health this low. Given the above and how easy it is for many to knock him over, being killed in two hits or an enemies two hit mixup after you have hit them 20 times is disheartning. In dominion if one enemy lands just one hit on you often it means the second enemy has killed you. Especially happens when fighting someone and another played hits you from behing just once, dead.

Also, he falls very short in other areas, substantially worse than the other heroes I play:

3) Terrible in a 1v2 let alone more. His moveset, while cool, is dreadfull for fighting a group as his main damage dealer and mixup is the "sickle rain" combo. You just cant use this within 30 feet of an enemy unless you want to get hammered into the earth like a fence post, with a top heavy. So you are relegated to either spamming zone and switching targets rapidly (very low damage and will get you parried very quickly), or trying to get in a few lights here and there. Doing anything but dodging generally gets you killed as even the time it takes to do one light attacks is enough time for the other enemy to GB you or pummel you.

4) Shinobis revenge is very poor. Ive popped it and been killed before the activation animation has even ended numerous times now. Most of the time I pop it with full health and full revenge (with mid tier revenge defence stat buffed), I cant even use it as an escape tool as you still die in one shot from the 2/3 enemies that have all landed a single hit on you while you get stunlocked and just eat it. His attack damage increase dosent do all that much as his moves already arent good to fight a group.

5) Deflect is fairly pointless. Nobody is going to risk trying to deflect attacks with such a tiny HP, especially when a successful deflect nets you maybe one HP bar off your enemy. I dont believe this class is deserving of the "Glass cannon" title many have given him here, as I dont see where he dishes out any sort of decent damage on par with mid damage heroes, certainly not even comparable to a warden/ shogoki etc.. Orochi has huge deflect damage, but can afford to risk a few with his health, while Shinobi can only sustain one or two hits in total, yet his deflect is pitiful. Its not in line with high risk- high reward by any stretch at all.

6) Getting one shot by stuff all the time be it a nail bomb, javelin whatever.. all the time 100-0.

7) The worst block in the game, I dont mind it too much, but complied with all of his other weaknesses it all ads up.

In summation, sure Shinobi has some nice elements too, jump kick and ranged attacks, but frankly when looking at this as a zero sum game (at least using my own statistics, and theorising that mine are close to average results), Just 1 of me playing a warden/PK would be better than having 2 of me joining your dominion match while only taking up one player slot. And frankly I find that insanely unbalanced. The same as if I tried a different gun in a shooter and my K/D doubled.

Feel free to disagree or leave your thoughts on it, cheers.

XxHunterHxX
05-19-2017, 10:03 AM
I keep saying the shinobi is a little fly ...but people keep crying OP... while centurion ****s you up with 1 kick...

Gureto_Daze
05-19-2017, 10:39 AM
I totally agree,

I also don't understand why peolpe call him a glass cannon, his damage is pretty average comparing with other heroes so...
all of these weaknesses hurts the character a lot.

He has a health pool of 90 (behind peacekeeper which has 120) which is terrible, it should be at least 110 or even with PK in my opinion,
since they're both characters with great mobility and similar damage I think it makes sense.

His evades into heavys or GBs mix ups are really easy to counter, so his only game plans at the moment revolves into his double evades into lights and his kicks which are pretty good but also can expose him to much by being so close, if the oponnent GB you it's GG.

That's why my biggest problem with the shinobi it's his poor health.

Herbstlicht
05-19-2017, 10:41 AM
I think he only is difficult to play and not using deflect is loosing out much. Especially in group fights, being able to teleport behind your opponent where his mate might hit him and stagger him while getting into a more careful play until your teammates arrive make for interesting choices.
And maybe, Shinobi simpy isn't "for you". I can't play peacekeeper for example, doesn't fit.

Anyway, to me, he seems like a working class anyway. Maybe he will need some tweeks, but it is still early.

XxHunterHxX
05-19-2017, 10:50 AM
if they nerf the shinobi even a little they must as well just remove hem from the game...

90% of people that cry about shinobi i bet they NEVER use faint...doge...block..nothing they just spamm light and havy atacks they lose and they rage....

UrWaifuAintReal
05-19-2017, 11:08 AM
Shinobi, you either own with him (and abuse the **** outta the kick) or sucks with him, there's no inbetween.

Me, I'm favoring of nerfing out all of unpunishable stuffs and let the bads play something else rather than making certain character ridiculously OP toward the end that is high level play just because bads can't play him well.

SenBotsu893
05-19-2017, 11:10 AM
Very Accurate Summary of Shinobis flaws.

Another thing i noticed is that the Ranged Grab does not reward you anything since people can simple block any follow up heavy and even lights. Which is Funny since its kinda stated as a True Combo in his movelist.
So there is no point in using ranged GB since its most likely to be reversed and send you to the ground.

Bracus_Maximus
05-19-2017, 11:19 AM
Well i have to disagree that shin is not usefull in dominion. As the fastest runner in game its very good at capping points fast then move to another. In an organized grp ( not meaning in a grp made for staying all together then moving from points to point and ganking ) it can can get to help faster the team mates. Also if someone tanks like 2 guys shinobi is very good at helping by pulling one of them from the team mate very fast. Its almost guaranteed because they dont pay attention to the newly arrived shin.

Its all about playing it very differently i found it the hard way.
I played her up to rep3 and i really like her. As for 1v1s everyone still needs to get better with and against the new chars so its too early for making any judgements.
As for the guard stance. Hell i noticed its even shorter than other assasin's stance it seems.

Lyskir
05-19-2017, 11:24 AM
he is the most difficult hero to play in the game, what do you expect?

u want more hp, more dmg , easy 1v2, no cgb on ur range gb ...like wtf, that would make him completely broken

If you find him too difficult, then shinobi isnt for you

DrExtrem
05-19-2017, 11:26 AM
Let me guess.

You are playing on PC right?

It is time, that we talk about different balancing, for different platforms.

XxHunterHxX
05-19-2017, 11:27 AM
If you ask me i think 10 more hp added wold be enough other then that he is fine as it is...

Bracus_Maximus
05-19-2017, 11:29 AM
Very Accurate Summary of Shinobis flaws.

Another thing i noticed is that the Ranged Grab does not reward you anything since people can simple block any follow up heavy and even lights. Which is Funny since its kinda stated as a True Combo in his movelist.
So there is no point in using ranged GB since its most likely to be reversed and send you to the ground.

On PC after the ranged grab its a guaranteed combo ( at least no one ever could even block it ). I saw somewhere on the forums that its a bug on console that it can be blocked.

HiTeHa
05-19-2017, 11:32 AM
True story: ...was yesterday, cloudy ... little Shinobi jumps around me ... I charged my Shugoki power heavy ... *swing* ... and Shinobi was dead. End. :) :) :)

Lady_Lynxx
05-19-2017, 11:32 AM
I agree with most of the points, for what the shinobi is, the pros dont justify the cons of it. It needs some sort of a buff, either to the HP pool or bring the time on the guard stance up of the other assassins, it makes no sense to have such a short guard stance.
The ranged GB is useless most of the time, people are competent enough to block it and punish you hard. Only time it works is if you manage to sneak up on someone.
The damage output is not as great as people make it out to be to justify the extremely low HP pool. (you are basically the PK for samurai)
The kick spam which people here tell to use, again, will only get you so far. All it takes is to use it twice or three times and any player with half a brain can see it coming a mile away. And the punish for it is extremely high because of the non existing HP pool.

I like the idea behind the character, being this agile assassin, weaving in and out of combat´and IMO it is the first character in the game which deserves the HARD tag but for the wrong reasons.

DrExtrem
05-19-2017, 11:44 AM
True story: ...was yesterday, cloudy ... little Shinobi jumps around me ... I charged my Shugoki power heavy ... *swing* ... and Shinobi was dead. End. :) :) :)

Boom headshot.

Sadly, this does not work against bots.

Egotistic_Ez
05-19-2017, 12:15 PM
Shinobi is fine as is (bugs aside). The only complaint I ever see is kick, and that's easy to deal with. You just let the kick hit you then get ready for the gb or heavy, which then knocks the shinobi over when you parry/cgb, and you win.


On PC after the ranged grab its a guaranteed combo ( at least no one ever could even block it ). I saw somewhere on the forums that its a bug on console that it can be blocked.

It's meant to be guaranteed apparently. I can confirm that on consoles it's currently not.

SerArthur-Dayne
05-20-2017, 01:02 AM
Very Accurate Summary of Shinobis flaws.

Another thing i noticed is that the Ranged Grab does not reward you anything since people can simple block any follow up heavy and even lights. Which is Funny since its kinda stated as a True Combo in his movelist.
So there is no point in using ranged GB since its most likely to be reversed and send you to the ground.

Cheers, I do believe on console though that is a bug, where you cant get the guaranteed sicle rain off of a ranged GB. Theres also one on PC (maybe console again too) where you dont recieve any invincibility frames during a roll, hopefully they can look at these one quickly.

Antonioj26
05-20-2017, 01:05 AM
True story: ...was yesterday, cloudy ... little Shinobi jumps around me ... I charged my Shugoki power heavy ... *swing* ... and Shinobi was dead. End. :) :) :)

Great so you killed a compete re tard. You heard it here folks shinobi is balanced because this one player was killed by a shugo with the slowest most telegraphed move in the game.

MasterChiefPON
05-20-2017, 01:18 AM
True story: ...was yesterday, cloudy ... little Shinobi jumps around me ... I charged my Shugoki power heavy ... *swing* ... and Shinobi was dead. End. :) :) :)

Jajaja, name checks out

SerArthur-Dayne
05-20-2017, 01:21 AM
Great so you killed a compete re tard. You heard it here folks shinobi is balanced because this one player was killed by a shugo with the slowest most telegraphed move in the game.

Hey mate, could you please stick to using arguements or talking points instead of using ad hominem attacks against people posting here, cheers.

Antonioj26
05-20-2017, 01:22 AM
Hey mate, could you please stick to using arguements or talking points instead of using ad hominem attacks against people posting here, cheers.

Who did I attack? Read it again friend.

UbiNoty
05-20-2017, 01:28 AM
Ok everybody. Thanks for the feedback but lets make sure we keep the discussion civil and stay respectful of everyone's own personal experiences and opinions.

Robert223333
05-20-2017, 01:30 AM
Ok everybody. Thanks for the feedback but lets make sure we keep the discussion civil and stay respectful of everyone's own personal experiences and opinions.
Good point. :)

CaynAldan
05-22-2017, 11:55 AM
After read all the threat, and waiting for test Shinobi and Cent by my own, i found a couple of thing:

First: Cent it's far more hard to fight against than Shinobi: One error and 90% you are killed by this long chain of UB and knockdowns. With shinobi i have a margin to recover for a miss or two.

Second: I have the fellings that shinobi is designed around deflect, but with actual bad mechanic of deflect nobody is going to risk for it and instead rely on kick and ranged attaks that, in fact, they are far more dangerous in short-mid range than in long one, where do you have plenty of time to counter them.

I think we need see the changes in defence and a pair of weeks of everybody accesing the new classes to ask for nothing but a little tweaks.

For example, in first sight, shinobi kick seemed to me to drain to much stamina, but it doesn't hurt so much as cent because it isn't so chainable.

By now, berserkers and warlords are still the most hard classes to fight agains with my orochi, in line with cent, and follow by conq and shugoki. Shinobi is far behind these

With my valk , it's pk and cent again with berserker. Shinobi is a bit hard but only because i'm nor use at it.

Dizzy4213
05-22-2017, 12:00 PM
Duel/Brawl he isn't so bad, but in 4v4 he can pretty much be one shot by high Gear Score players thanks to how ****ed the Gear System is. Don't need any buffs, feats or revenge to do it. I've stopped playing Shinobi for this very reason.

One mistake and you're dead. That to me, is not fun at all. Especially when he has the worst block in the game.

SnugglesIV
05-22-2017, 12:13 PM
I've said it once, and I'll say it again. Personal anecdotes are invalid because anyone can walk in here and say "I think Shinobi is really overpowered because I'm outperforming all of my mains as him, and here are my personal stats as proof" and you would have no way to dispute his claim. Only community statistics matter when it comes to balance discussions. If Shinobi is severely underperforming compared to the rest of the roster, then you can say that he is weak. At this point in time, all we can say is that you are not a good Shinobi because that is all we can reliably gather from the statistics you have provided.

Phallicmenace
05-22-2017, 12:30 PM
I think the ranged attacks could use some love, I don't dare use them in 1v1.

Nestramutat
05-22-2017, 12:33 PM
Shinobi is fine as is (bugs aside). The only complaint I ever see is kick, and that's easy to deal with. You just let the kick hit you then get ready for the gb or heavy, which then knocks the shinobi over when you parry/cgb, and you win.



It's meant to be guaranteed apparently. I can confirm that on consoles it's currently not.

Except the heavy or any hit after kick is unblockable/unparryable. GG