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View Full Version : Armor Pen being flat reduction screws new players, not veteran geared ones



Jasado
05-18-2017, 06:53 PM
Like, duh.

Lower level gear has lower base defense values.

Higher level gear has higher natural armor pen (and defense) values.

Flat subtraction does nothing but crap all over new players, and does LESS to higher level characters because they have naturally higher flat values to reduce.

The ENTIRE point of Armor Pen is to make it a % based pierce, so that people stacking it are less effective, while making it less punishing on already squishy players (like the enforced squishy-ness on low def value gear.)

For instance, a warlord with all his defense/hp passives and a value of 40 defense

and a new Shinobi leveling up with a max value of 20 defense

A higher level person can get +20 armor pen.

A lower level person can get +7 armor pen.

(these are examples, not reflective of actual stats, but the analogy is valid were you to look at the numbers)

Exactly how does this crap "help lower level players kill higher level ones"? (hint: it does not.)

This helps high level players TWO SHOT lowbies.

Armor Pen needs to be a % based stat to actually affect high level people trying to be super tanky.

50% armor pen versus 40 is 20 penetration.

50% armor pen versus 20 is 10.

50% armor pen versus people with negative defense does nothing.

50% armor pen versus a grey gear lowbie with 11 defense is 5.

See how this is less punishing, even if a high level person uses armor pen against a noob, but the other way around is more effective?

Yeah, that's how math works.

Please Ubi. Do your own math. You totally did the opposite of what you claimed the stat was for.

Reference taken from

https://forhonor.ubisoft.com/game/en-US/news-community/152-290121-16/season-2-gear-stats-revamp

quote in question being analyzed is

"Another big change is the introduction of a new statistic: the Defense Penetration, to help addressing the gap between low and high level gear. The Defense Penetration decreases the opponentís Defense Stat.
For example, if an opponent has 20% Defense, it would take 20% less damage from any hits. But with a 15% Defense Penetration stat, it would be reduced to 5% less damage from your hits.
So in the end, itís a good counter to high level Gear without unbalancing low level attack. Also this stats, starts at a higher value to be really impactful against high level heroes from the start."

Jasado
05-19-2017, 02:57 AM
bamp

TheMalakith
05-19-2017, 02:59 AM
For as far as I know it can't put your defense into a negative. So you can only bypass the extra defence someone has from gear and nothing more with this stat. Meaning you will waste it if you're fighting someone who doesn't use defence on his gear.

Jasado
05-19-2017, 03:05 AM
For as far as I know it can't put your defense into a negative. So you can only bypass the extra defence someone has from gear and nothing more with this stat. Meaning you will waste it if you're fighting someone who doesn't use defence on his gear.

That would happen in either case, whether it was % or flat based reduction - and frankly, has little to do with the topic at hand.

It's not about returns versus people who choose to abandon defense, it's how it doesn't work as advertised or intended at all in it's current iteration.

Alustar.
05-19-2017, 03:36 AM
Like, duh.

Lower level gear has lower base defense values.

Higher level gear has higher natural armor pen (and defense) values.

Flat subtraction does nothing but crap all over new players, and does LESS to higher level characters because they have naturally higher flat values to reduce.

The ENTIRE point of Armor Pen is to make it a % based pierce, so that people stacking it are less effective, while making it less punishing on already squishy players (like the enforced squishy-ness on low def value gear.)

For instance, a warlord with all his defense/hp passives and a value of 40 defense

and a new Shinobi leveling up with a max value of 20 defense

A higher level person can get +20 armor pen.

A lower level person can get +7 armor pen.

(these are examples, not reflective of actual stats, but the analogy is valid were you to look at the numbers)

Exactly how does this crap "help lower level players kill higher level ones"? (hint: it does not.)

This helps high level players TWO SHOT lowbies.

Armor Pen needs to be a % based stat to actually affect high level people trying to be super tanky.

50% armor pen versus 40 is 20 penetration.

50% armor pen versus 20 is 10.

50% armor pen versus people with negative defense does nothing.

50% armor pen versus a grey gear lowbie with 11 defense is 5.

See how this is less punishing, even if a high level person uses armor pen against a noob, but the other way around is more effective?

Yeah, that's how math works.

Please Ubi. Do your own math. You totally did the opposite of what you claimed the stat was for.

Reference taken from

https://forhonor.ubisoft.com/game/en-US/news-community/152-290121-16/season-2-gear-stats-revamp

quote in question being analyzed is

"Another big change is the introduction of a new statistic: the Defense Penetration, to help addressing the gap between low and high level gear. The Defense Penetration decreases the opponentís Defense Stat.
For example, if an opponent has 20% Defense, it would take 20% less damage from any hits. But with a 15% Defense Penetration stat, it would be reduced to 5% less damage from your hits.
So in the end, itís a good counter to high level Gear without unbalancing low level attack. Also this stats, starts at a higher value to be really impactful against high level heroes from the start."

You know, it's doesn't sound like you even read your own link. Defense pen is percent based...
Where are you getting this from?

Jasado
05-19-2017, 04:05 AM
You know, it's doesn't sound like you even read your own link. Defense pen is percent based...
Where are you getting this from?

Read the quote taken from the article.

The PERCENTAGE of armor pen is SUBTRACTED FLAT from the PERCENTAGE of DEFENSE.

It's is not a PERCENTAGE pierce, it's a roundabout way of saying direct plus and minus.

20% defense

15% armor pen

makes it

5% defense

Because the BASE values are always HIGHER on HIGHER level gear,

high reputation players can take any decent Armor Penetration piece and level it, and it will

COMPLETELY NEGATE ANY DEFENSE VALUES A LOWER LEVEL COULD EVER HOPE TO INVEST IN.

The intended point was to help lower level players do relevant damage to high-end leveled people with average to above average defense investment, because of the aforementioned HIGHER BASE VALUES of gear.

Currently, the opposite is in effect - anyone who tries to have any defense before really high gear score gets completely stripped of all defense values, no matter how much they invest.

And max level people do not get nearly as much impact loss because their base defense across 3 pieces can go higher than lower gear score.

Basically what I'm saying is this.

Armor Penetration, to be effective against high level people like Warlord and such, who can stack defense alongside complementary talents that increase their max hp, would need to be a PERCENTAGE PENETRATION AFTER CALCULATIONS. (I.E., a 50% armor pen value of the grand total, not a flat reduction BEFORE calculation.)

For instance, instead of

20% defense

15% armor pen

= 5% defense

it would be added after the total defense value was determined. (but only affect the bonus defense gained from defense, not reducing the baseline defense.)

This might require some bigger numbers internally for the math to be right, depending on how simple it is under the hood.

But it is what is required for the current iteration of the stat to meet the goal of it's design - help deal more effective damage to people stacking tank.

Currently, high geared people can completely invalidate any lower leveled tier gears defense value - while still managing to get some bonus.

It's supposed to help balance damage out, not completely invalidate a lower levels gear choices. If it were a % pierce after the fact, there would still be SOME return value of defense on a lower gear score person.

Currently, high level armor pen totally nullifies any chance at bonus defense, while high level defense outpaces armor pen period.

(Though currently, attack values are upscaled and defense as a stat, is simply in a poorer state. But that makes this point all the more sticky, both now and after the fact, should defense be made more valuable again.)

It's a non-question that penetration doesn't provide benefit on people who take negative defense values, that isn't the point at all.

Gray360UK
05-19-2017, 04:13 AM
They updated their stat descriptions so it now reads:

Defense Penetration

Defense Penetration allows your Hero's Attacks to ignore an amount of the enemy Hero’s Defense when attacking them.

Your Hero ignores as much of the opponent’s Defense as the value of the Defense Penetration is.

So it sounds like if they have 10 defence and you have 20% Defense Penetration, then you would ignore 2 Defense, reducing their Defense to 8.

Obviously a higher Defense Penetration stat (higher players) vs a low level players already small Defense value will be more devastating than a low level players lower Defense Penetration vs a high level players higher Defense stat.

So correct, it does not help lower level players reduce the gap vs high level players as much as it helps high level players crush low level ones.

Father_Giliam
05-19-2017, 04:37 AM
Your Hero ignores as much of the opponent’s Defense as the value of the Defense Penetration is.

This states it is a flat rate.

Jasado
05-19-2017, 05:07 AM
Your Hero ignores as much of the opponentís Defense as the value of the Defense Penetration is.

This states it is a flat rate.

Yeah, he stated it got updated, breh.

That doesn't do anything to explain the point that the stat was falsely advertised and does the complete opposite of what it was explained to do.

If they wanted to just say "This makes higher geared people completely destroy newcomers for free! Just sacrifice chip damage! Totally pay for power, the exact opposite of what a whole stream was dedicated to explaining we wanted to even out gearscore!" then they should have. Not entirely mislead everyone about their intentions surrounding a new feature.

Or, they didn't think it through enough, which is why this thread exists, because if they really meant to do what they said, they DID NOT DO THAT, and should look into what they have done instead to better fit their stated goals.

Father_Giliam
05-19-2017, 05:32 AM
Yeah, he stated it got updated, breh.

Right.. and yet..


So it sounds like if they have 10 defence and you have 20% Defense Penetration, then you would ignore 2 Defense, reducing their Defense to 8.

DrExtrem
05-19-2017, 06:53 AM
The gear stat update is lovely isn't it?

Father_Giliam
05-19-2017, 07:32 AM
The gear stat update is lovely isn't it?

Since I only had one hero maxed out and prepared, it wasn't too bad. I miss my extra sprint speed but I'm happy with the new stats.

I see why those who had multiple heroes maxed would be upset though.

DrExtrem
05-19-2017, 07:44 AM
Since I only had one hero maxed out and prepared, it wasn't too bad. I miss my extra sprint speed but I'm happy with the new stats.

I see why those who had multiple heroes maxed would be upset though.

I only have two heroes with pretty good purple gear.

But the update is crap in general. Not even because of the stats but how they are explained ingame - or more precisely, how they are not explained.

8,4% of what? Blueberry muffins? Fuder (ancient northern german unit)? We can not even cross check, if the stats,are working as intended, because we can't see how much damage we deal or how much stamina we lose.

The gear system is bolted to a basically nice combat system but it is extremely intransparent. The update was the chance to fix it but they only made it even worse. An achievement on its own.

Gray360UK
05-19-2017, 12:05 PM
I only have two heroes with pretty good purple gear.

But the update is crap in general. Not even because of the stats but how they are explained ingame - or more precisely, how they are not explained.

8,4% of what? Blueberry muffins? Fuder (ancient northern german unit)? We can not even cross check, if the stats,are working as intended, because we can't see how much damage we deal or how much stamina we lose.

The gear system is bolted to a basically nice combat system but it is extremely intransparent. The update was the chance to fix it but they only made it even worse. An achievement on its own.

Exactly. To be honest in the end you know nothing from the numbers on the gear until you go into combat and see what happens.

Jasado
05-21-2017, 10:23 AM
Bump.

Defense penetration is not percentile. Defense penetration reduces the flat % of itself from the bonus % of defense on the enemy gear.

Read the article I quoted from Ubisoft itself.

It NEEDS to be a percentage penetration to work on higher level people - while still providing some benefit but not entirely negating lower level defense.

An example. 50% penetration on a 200 defense target is 100 defense penetration. The same value versus a 80 defense target is 40 penetration.

The higher the total value of defense the enemy has, the better it is.

CURRENTLY, defense penetration STRIPS AWAY THE STATED % FROM THE OPPONENTS STATED % BONUS DEF.

All this accomplishes is that high gear level people can invest in 1 armor penetration piece and absolutely destroy anyone not at max gear score because their defense investment is always considered ZERO.

15% Armor Pen makes a 20% defense into 5% defense. Get it?

Stop spreading misinformation when the FAQ clearly states Armor Penetration is a flat reduction based on comparing the total % of YOUR PENETRATION versus THEIR defense.

This is why you see Berserkers top heavy doing 75 damage and one shotting just about anyone in a fight they trade with.