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View Full Version : The only somewhat reasonable nerfs for Centurion.



Jasado
05-18-2017, 06:31 PM
The only inherently problematic move from Centurion is his Kick.

Why? It stuns the opponent.

I understand why.

It's because his followup charge stab which can be made to be unblockable, becomes "invisible" during the stun, so you have no real clue beyond visually (during greyscale flashbang) of where it is coming from, making it a nightmare to parry.

But here's the problem.

Because that's a combo, you never even get to learn the parry timing. The parry timing for that move is very tight. It is not easy to parry.

It's ridiculous that you can't practice because - the move that combos into it stuns you. So you never get to learn the timing. That's no good.

Even Kensei can stun grab you into overhead, but the timing is natural and in no ways tight.

You either have to loosen the timing on the parry for that charged attack from Cent, or you need to do something about that stun.

Because absolutely requiring you go into practice mode with a friend to play him and repeatedly spam the move WITHOUT kicking you just so you can naturalize the timing to even have a chance at stopping it in a live game during a stun is actually game warping from a defenders point of view.

Secondly, let's talk about spammable kick. I'm talking about forward dodge into kick.

This move shouldn't be stunning. The grab version? Totally fine, you earned the grab. The naked dodge spam one? Hell no.

This is most abusable against a revenge target. Martial Arts are already quite effective versus revenge targets - because shoves and movements still work. The fact you can flashbang them at the same time over and over makes it borderline impossible for them to respond against multiple targets, which is the point of revenge.

The only other consideration would be making his charged heavy specifically not do the pinning stab versus a revenge mode target. I think we've all seen the video by now (if not, here's a look)

https://www.reddit.com/r/forhonor/comments/6bt1n5/my_experience_with_season_ii_so_far/

On how pinning stab into guaranteed super punch works EZPZ on revenge targets, which only gets more ridiculous the more centurions there are.

If the pinning stab did not work (but still did damage) it would at least give the revenge user a possible reaction time to the charged punch, and then the Centurion has the option for light punch for knockback instead of knockdown instead.

There is at least a meaningful choice between both involved players there. It doesn't shave too much power from Cent in this situation either.

Also, light punch shouldn't be wall-smack inducing. Not even Shinobi's ranged attack > forward roll > super backflip kick causes wallsmack (which physically LOOKS like it should), but Centurion's uncharged punch does.

This is a problem because he can infinite you against the wall. Wall-smack allows Cent to do a charged pinning heavy, which allows him a fully charged heavy > jump stab. BUT, if you have them against the wall you just threw them into, if you do light punch, it wall-smacks again.

Which leads to a pinning strike heavy.

Which leads to a light punch.

Which leads to a wall-smack.

Which leads to a pinning strike heavy.

See the problem? It's not very stamina cost heavy when you are landing all the hits, and punches do stamina damage, so you will probably stamina break the opponent before you do. If they aren't dead. (Hint: they are dead.)

How did this get out of testing, lmao.

TL;DR - ITT REASONABLE CENTURION NERFS WITH SOME EXPLANATION

Kick causing stun makes it improbable and unhealthy to learn the parry timing for the charged heavy that comes after, because you cannot see it - and that parry timing isn't easy like Kensei. While I understand this is intended behavior to mask the opponents ability to easily predict where it's coming from, it still prevents them from even learning how to guess-parry it since the timing is almost impossible to learn without a very specific training environment with a friend. That's not cool.

Kick causing stun during a guard break follow up (because guard break can be rejected) is TOTALLY okay

Kick causing stun when you are spamming it with forward dodge is TOTALLY NOT OKAY

This is made worse by the fact that martial art moves already are super effective versus revenge targets - also being able to repeatedly flashbang stun a revenge target while "bumping" them removes the entire point of revenge in 1 move, because they don't even get to really respond appropriately to other people attacking them when they potentially could.

Pinning stab should be looked at for it's effectiveness versus revenge targets, in terms of the CC. If the stab didn't pin but still did damage and allowed the followup punch (either charged or uncharged), this would at least allow some interaction between the revenge target and the centurion. They could potentially dodge the charge punch, or they would get the light punch but no guaranteed jumping impale. This change alone (specifically versus revenge) would prevent situations like this

https://www.reddit.com/r/forhonor/comments/6bt1n5/my_experience_with_season_ii_so_far/

Because currently, Revenge mode is totally nullified by Cent alone, and it becomes toxic the second more than 1 Centurion gets added to the mix, for the above mentioned reasons.

It is far worse than actually coordinating attacks with previous characters, for the above mentioned reasons. Revenge, while outplayable, shouldn't be totally nullified by 1 kit with so little (or absolutely no) response from the revenge user.

Light punch should not wall-smack

Way heavier knockbacks, including Shinobi super kick (the one after a ranged attack where he flips forward then does a full backflip kick, not the double dash one) don't even wallsmack. A zero charge punch should not be doing this

This is made worse by the nigh-infinite of cheese this also gives Centurion

Wall-smack guarantees a pinning heavy

Which guarantees a light punch

Which guarantees a wall-smack

Read that again to discover the problem.

These three problematic behaviors are the reasonable issues that actually impact game health. Everything else about Centurion is great, he's overall a great release.

Duuklah
05-18-2017, 07:06 PM
youve done a good analysis of the issues with centurion. Being stunned while you are expected to parry a charged heavy that comes out at random timing usually is damn near impossible.


Usually the TLDR section isnt just as long as the section its TLDRing!!

Xynrex
05-18-2017, 07:28 PM
The only inherently problematic move from Centurion is his Kick.


Dodge - problem solved.

No need to thank me.

Gensui.Musashi
05-18-2017, 07:43 PM
lol come on. thats really ez to dodge. Not if 2 Cents kick you but one =ez.

Jos3phhdz89
05-18-2017, 07:45 PM
Another guy crying about centurion becouse he's not good enough to be patient and read the oponente moves!!... there's no need of nerf centurion or shinobi at all, you just need how to play against them!!

Vingrask
05-18-2017, 07:47 PM
The only problem with Centurion is that the stamina drain which is too much. Everything else is a matter of pay attention and counter.

FootlessRhino
05-18-2017, 07:55 PM
Infinite combo needs to be fixed and they need to do some changes with revenge interaction when it comes to CC. that's about it. the kick is fair, easily dodgable and gives you free GB if dodged.

Besides infinite punch combo, in 1v1 situations Centurion is perfectly fine. once the revenge gets tweaked he should be fine in 4v4's as well.

Jasado
05-19-2017, 03:04 AM
Infinite combo needs to be fixed and they need to do some changes with revenge interaction when it comes to CC. that's about it. the kick is fair, easily dodgable and gives you free GB if dodged.

Besides infinite punch combo, in 1v1 situations Centurion is perfectly fine. once the revenge gets tweaked he should be fine in 4v4's as well.



You keep talking like the issue with kick is the 1v1.

I very specifically pointed out the fact that it's spammable on revenge mode users in multi-fight as a double blind. It's not "easy to dodge" when it's from the side or behind, because your dodge is "wrapped" around your target.

Really, the only problem is the dash one stuns you. Frankly, the stun should be a benefit for the grab followup - because that has interaction involved, and is the most likely one to happen in a 1v1, where it belongs.

The only other issue with kick is it prevents the followup from being "learned" in terms of how to defend against it.

You can also freely spam it on someone with revenge because it isn't blown away by the revenge burst animation, and in fact negates the followup from the revenge user on any allies since they get womped on.

But yeah, it's mostly the infinite combo and pinning stabs on revenge mode users that create real problems.

It seems like if someone activates revenge during the pin, it doesn't knockback Cent and he can just ignore the activation and charge the full punch during their burst animation.

Mia.Nora
05-19-2017, 03:45 AM
At this point I dont even care whether they nerf him or not. If they dont I will just main him until game gets stale and boring with everyone and their dog running as centurions (probably less than a month), then I will quit.

Looks like ubisoft is doing a great job.

Vordred
05-19-2017, 03:55 AM
yeah i said from the start the stun needs to go, it shouldn't heat seek so much either

but giving a character a unblockable, unparryable stun as a opening move is just BS.

kweassa1917
05-19-2017, 04:09 AM
Nah, let them have their fun. It's how they designed the class.

Instead, impose bigger stam useage.


Like, any other class try a combo of 5~6 attacks in a row composed of heavies, UBs, and GBs? They run dry in like the 4th attack. Like if it's a Warden doing a (theoretically, not limited to "real" skills) SB into a heavy into a GB into a heavy into a light into a SB into a.... buh-bye, stamina, hello exhaustion... Or even better. If it's a Shugoki... it's like... heavy into a heavy into a ZA feint into a... wait... stamina gone.

As for their 'effectiveness' I already feel people are getting used to the Cent, novelty is slowly but surely rubbing off, and starting from seasoned players, I see them killing Cents more and more,


So if this is the design direction they chose for the Cent, let him do it. But compared to the massive rewards he can reap, whereas possible punishment remains limited, then it'd be only wise to retouch the stamina so they can either try that combo once and blow the load, or use it in shorter bursts and mixups from time to time.

Jasado
05-19-2017, 04:18 AM
Nah, let them have their fun. It's how they designed the class.

Instead, impose bigger stam useage.


Like, any other class try a combo of 5~6 attacks in a row composed of heavies, UBs, and GBs? They run dry in like the 4th attack. Like if it's a Warden doing a (theoretically, not limited to "real" skills) SB into a heavy into a GB into a heavy into a light into a SB into a.... buh-bye, stamina, hello exhaustion... Or even better. If it's a Shugoki... it's like... heavy into a heavy into a ZA feint into a... wait... stamina gone.

As for their 'effectiveness' I already feel people are getting used to the Cent, novelty is slowly but surely rubbing off, and starting from seasoned players, I see them killing Cents more and more,


So if this is the design direction they chose for the Cent, let him do it. But compared to the massive rewards he can reap, whereas possible punishment remains limited, then it'd be only wise to retouch the stamina so they can either try that combo once and blow the load, or use it in shorter bursts and mixups from time to time.

Removing interaction from both sides and turning it into "hey, my gear piece is max stamina cost reduction and I threw you into a wall once, good luck" is toxic game design and runs directly counter to the principle of push/pull from both parties.

Having a built in "true combo" is okay, but it was obviously an oversight to let uncharged punch wallsmack again. They obviously expected people to do the full one for the jumping impale, and simply didn't test for the opposite.

An infinite gated only by how the centurion chooses his gear and completely removes any enemy interaction is NOT the design direction intended for him, or he would not have the insane toolkit of moves he has.

This issue is totally separate from his balance as a character individually, because this is a matter of emergent gameplay that isn't conducive to the game design principles. Removing wallsmack from light jab is going to do zero things to deconstruct his character design.

Knight_Raime
05-19-2017, 04:40 AM
as a person whos played cent all day for 2 days the only suggested nerf you posted that i can get behind is the removal of the blind on kick. people are already getting my parry timing down. the pin exists specifically for team fights. the problem isnt the pin nor centurion. its general 4v4 design. and cent design is to be extremely punishing on a surface. so the splat should stay. honestly just wait till you fight compitent players who understand his kit. you gotta try a lot harder to get your combo going.

NocturnalFox-
05-19-2017, 04:47 AM
I honestly believe all of you calling for centurion nerf are chatting ****.
It has low HP, low reach, damage output isn't great, and AND stamina runs out fast after a couple of kicks/punches.

This one is probably the weakest character.
As for "it seems fast" It does not seem fast to me.
Everyone elses attacks seem to beat mine, so it is a case of grab/kick to open them up and get a couple of jabs in there. But the moment they hit me with a 2-3 combo= dead.
Literally all they have to do is turtle and centurion is ****ed.

Jasado
05-19-2017, 05:01 AM
as a person whos played cent all day for 2 days the only suggested nerf you posted that i can get behind is the removal of the blind on kick. people are already getting my parry timing down. the pin exists specifically for team fights. the problem isnt the pin nor centurion. its general 4v4 design. and cent design is to be extremely punishing on a surface. so the splat should stay. honestly just wait till you fight compitent players who understand his kit. you gotta try a lot harder to get your combo going.

Pin is intended to be the true combo to access the guaranteed charge punch...which is totally valid in teamfights too, I get that, but it's intended to destroy people 1v1, it just has plenty of versatility because of the raw power it contains. Which is clearly too much versus revenge.

If you think light jab justifies wallsplat, then every single martial art should as well, by that logic. Because it's the weakest.

Every type of shinobi kick, Shugoki headbutt, warlord headbutt, totally uncharged warden shoulder.

Wouldn't that be super cool? Warlord can do his super armor jump slash, headbutt you into a wall, then immediately do the super armor jump slash into another headbutt?

Man, so much fun. So earned.

Shugoki can just light > headbutt you and you wallsmack, so then he can heavy > headbutt into another wallsmack! He can keep doing this over and over until he's almost out of stamina, and then get his guaranteed bearhug grab for the finisher!

So fun. So justifiable. So deserved.

Everyone would love Warden's > side lightx2 > light shoulder shove with no charge > wallsmack > side lightx2 > uncharged shoulder > wallsmack! He could do it infinitely until he was out of stamina, then end it with a top heavy off the wallsmack to execute you!

Ledgebringer could simply grab you, toss you into wallsmack, overhead heavy (stun) you, shove cancel, shove wallsmacks, infinite repeat until free execute!

So skill. Such back and forth. So earned.

After all, surfaces should be punishing, hue hue hue.



Surfaces are supposed to punishing for everyone being tossed against them, period. But you are supposed to EARN it each time for the rewards it presents. You have to outplay your opponent repeatedly to get continuous wallsmacks. Usually involving feint and being actually good. Centurion already gets the biggest value in the game from ONE, (Pinning heavy>full punch>Lion's Roar) so it is totally nonsensical for you to suggest that he "deserves" an infinite as well? Because of 1 instance of outplay?

Lmao? No.

dekot11
05-19-2017, 05:29 AM
I honestly believe all of you calling for centurion nerf are chatting ****.
It has low HP, low reach, damage output isn't great, and AND stamina runs out fast after a couple of kicks/punches.

This one is probably the weakest character.
As for "it seems fast" It does not seem fast to me.
Everyone elses attacks seem to beat mine, so it is a case of grab/kick to open them up and get a couple of jabs in there. But the moment they hit me with a 2-3 combo= dead.
Literally all they have to do is turtle and centurion is ****ed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxzWHAVH-hc&t=45s

Antonioj26
05-19-2017, 06:10 AM
I honestly believe all of you calling for centurion nerf are chatting ****.
It has low HP, low reach, damage output isn't great, and AND stamina runs out fast after a couple of kicks/punches.

This one is probably the weakest character.
As for "it seems fast" It does not seem fast to me.
Everyone elses attacks seem to beat mine, so it is a case of grab/kick to open them up and get a couple of jabs in there. But the moment they hit me with a 2-3 combo= dead.
Literally all they have to do is turtle and centurion is ****ed.

Absolutely insane. Like I said I'm happy to spar with you because you are talking absolute nonsense.

BeefMan_
05-19-2017, 06:11 AM
Pin is intended to be the true combo to access the guaranteed charge punch...which is totally valid in teamfights too, I get that, but it's intended to destroy people 1v1, it just has plenty of versatility because of the raw power it contains. Which is clearly too much versus revenge.

If you think light jab justifies wallsplat, then every single martial art should as well, by that logic. Because it's the weakest.

Every type of shinobi kick, Shugoki headbutt, warlord headbutt, totally uncharged warden shoulder.

Wouldn't that be super cool? Warlord can do his super armor jump slash, headbutt you into a wall, then immediately do the super armor jump slash into another headbutt?

Man, so much fun. So earned.

Shugoki can just light > headbutt you and you wallsmack, so then he can heavy > headbutt into another wallsmack! He can keep doing this over and over until he's almost out of stamina, and then get his guaranteed bearhug grab for the finisher!

So fun. So justifiable. So deserved.

Everyone would love Warden's > side lightx2 > light shoulder shove with no charge > wallsmack > side lightx2 > uncharged shoulder > wallsmack! He could do it infinitely until he was out of stamina, then end it with a top heavy off the wallsmack to execute you!

Ledgebringer could simply grab you, toss you into wallsmack, overhead heavy (stun) you, shove cancel, shove wallsmacks, infinite repeat until free execute!

So skill. Such back and forth. So earned.

After all, surfaces should be punishing, hue hue hue.



Surfaces are supposed to punishing for everyone being tossed against them, period. But you are supposed to EARN it each time for the rewards it presents. You have to outplay your opponent repeatedly to get continuous wallsmacks. Usually involving feint and being actually good. Centurion already gets the biggest value in the game from ONE, (Pinning heavy>full punch>Lion's Roar) so it is totally nonsensical for you to suggest that he "deserves" an infinite as well? Because of 1 instance of outplay?

Lmao? No.

This
If Cent gets a lucky parry, GB, or punch off on you, and you hit a wall, you may as well put the controller down. Absolute cancer.

KnifeInUrNeck
05-19-2017, 06:33 AM
I plan on investing in debuff resistance if it helps me snap out of effects earlier. The Cent is like Mike Tyson in that he wants to get you in a corner or against a wall so he can keep the pressure up. Try and make him Eiffel so he burns his stamina. Both the Cent and Shinobi lose most of their kit when exhausted.

Arekonator
05-19-2017, 07:09 AM
One thing that would make sense to do is to make his charged heavy get auto-parried by the revenge activation. I really dont know why it ignore the revenge pop unlike every other parriable attack in the game. It doesnt just do damage through the hyper-armor but also stuns you. Should be put in line with other parriable unblockables. Its sensible thing to do to get consistent across the board and it would ease some of the butthurt in general playerbase. (which in this specific case is justified imo)

kumanchik
05-19-2017, 07:36 AM
You keep talking like the issue with kick is the 1v1.

I very specifically pointed out the fact that it's spammable on revenge mode users in multi-fight as a double blind. It's not "easy to dodge" when it's from the side or behind, because your dodge is "wrapped" around your target.

Really, the only problem is the dash one stuns you. Frankly, the stun should be a benefit for the grab followup - because that has interaction involved, and is the most likely one to happen in a 1v1, where it belongs.

The only other issue with kick is it prevents the followup from being "learned" in terms of how to defend against it.

You can also freely spam it on someone with revenge because it isn't blown away by the revenge burst animation, and in fact negates the followup from the revenge user on any allies since they get womped on.

But yeah, it's mostly the infinite combo and pinning stabs on revenge mode users that create real problems.

It seems like if someone activates revenge during the pin, it doesn't knockback Cent and he can just ignore the activation and charge the full punch during their burst animation.
you can dodge all the kicks and jabs stop crying

Antonioj26
05-19-2017, 07:40 AM
you can dodge all the kicks and jabs stop crying

You are talking quite a bit. What platform you play on? Let's see you try and dodge my kicks and jabs come Tuesday when I get these characters.

BeefMan_
05-19-2017, 07:55 AM
you can dodge all the kicks and jabs stop crying

Literally none of the jabs are dodgeable unless the cent purposefully charges one when he doesn't need to.
Also if you get wallsplatted by it, that's game over

Knight_Raime
05-20-2017, 05:27 AM
Pin is intended to be the true combo to access the guaranteed charge punch...which is totally valid in teamfights too, I get that, but it's intended to destroy people 1v1, it just has plenty of versatility because of the raw power it contains. Which is clearly too much versus revenge.

If you think light jab justifies wallsplat, then every single martial art should as well, by that logic. Because it's the weakest.

Every type of shinobi kick, Shugoki headbutt, warlord headbutt, totally uncharged warden shoulder.

Wouldn't that be super cool? Warlord can do his super armor jump slash, headbutt you into a wall, then immediately do the super armor jump slash into another headbutt?

Man, so much fun. So earned.

Shugoki can just light > headbutt you and you wallsmack, so then he can heavy > headbutt into another wallsmack! He can keep doing this over and over until he's almost out of stamina, and then get his guaranteed bearhug grab for the finisher!

So fun. So justifiable. So deserved.

Everyone would love Warden's > side lightx2 > light shoulder shove with no charge > wallsmack > side lightx2 > uncharged shoulder > wallsmack! He could do it infinitely until he was out of stamina, then end it with a top heavy off the wallsmack to execute you!

Ledgebringer could simply grab you, toss you into wallsmack, overhead heavy (stun) you, shove cancel, shove wallsmacks, infinite repeat until free execute!

So skill. Such back and forth. So earned.

After all, surfaces should be punishing, hue hue hue.



Surfaces are supposed to punishing for everyone being tossed against them, period. But you are supposed to EARN it each time for the rewards it presents. You have to outplay your opponent repeatedly to get continuous wallsmacks. Usually involving feint and being actually good. Centurion already gets the biggest value in the game from ONE, (Pinning heavy>full punch>Lion's Roar) so it is totally nonsensical for you to suggest that he "deserves" an infinite as well? Because of 1 instance of outplay?

Lmao? No.

Take your salt else where kiddo. Nothing you said applies to what I posted sans the jab comment. If you looked at the rest of the kit for cent he's built specifically for pushing you into surfaces. But I really don't care if the wall splat inf combo stays or not. I just think it's fine. Also jab is dodgable in a majority of instances. If it had an easier time landing I might agree with you.

Qarismah
05-20-2017, 05:33 AM
The nerf that they just dropped on the centurion feels huge to me. I was one of the people in favor of nerfing and now he seems much much weaker. Almost too much... For one, his moves are actually dodgeable. Previously, you could actually dodge too early but they changed that. Now you really have to focus and utilize his mixups(which are still super powerful) if you want to be successful with him. You can't just spam kick, jab, punch.

kanuzira
05-20-2017, 10:30 AM
The walls smack is once after that you can get out by dodging......

ArcheDemonm
05-20-2017, 10:41 AM
The walls smack is once after that you can get out by dodging......

Completely wrong about that.

RAGEQUIT U JOKE
05-20-2017, 10:53 AM
Take your salt else where kiddo. Nothing you said applies to what I posted sans the jab comment. If you looked at the rest of the kit for cent he's built specifically for pushing you into surfaces. But I really don't care if the wall splat inf combo stays or not. I just think it's fine. Also jab is dodgable in a majority of instances. If it had an easier time landing I might agree with you.

kiddo is the trendiest and definitely the most cringy thing that is currently trending in the nerdy messages "im more adult than you" gaming community

kweassa1917
05-20-2017, 11:08 AM
The kick-stab needs to be on a "on success" condition.

Kicks can be dodged, but usually covered up by the following stab. If you're reactive enough to parry that, that's good for you, but most usually muster up a block... in which case, back to square one.