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OnyxCoffee
05-18-2017, 03:47 AM
Incomin rant (kinda?):
I don't understand how Ubisoft can buff Raider to the point where he's actually not a bad character in the slightest and then not only directly nerf Kensei's execution speed but also his unlock tech. Is it really necessary? I understand that it was an exploit used by some characters besides Kensei but honestly at this point, he needed everything he could get. You guys saw the tournament, you know how turtley the game can get. If you didn't see the tournament, it mostly consisted of using unblock-able moves out the gate and then feinting either said unblock-able or a heavy. Kensei does not viably have these options available to him since all of his moves outside of helmsplitter are so slow, players don't even have to try to parry anything outside the top light.

Ok, might have gotten A LIL off topic but I'm pretty curious as to what Ubisoft's thoughts are on how Kensei is as a character. I love him to death and it made me sad that not a single one was used in tournament. He's only gotten nerfs, save for the attack speed boost on his side attacks "which should make them safer on block" or however they put it, which is true in the sense that if I place a drop of water on a thirsty plant, I "watered" it. :(

Don't get me wrong, the 1st hit in chain cancel into the 3rd hit was basically a godsend but if we're real with each other, it was needed. Every other character had an opener besides him. Heck, he still barely has one.

TL;DR Can someone explain why nerfing kensei has seemed to be a trend? Is he just the joke character people aren't supposed to play seriously?

Edit P.S.: I know other characters also need a bit of loving. I'm just down since I play kensei almost exclusively.

P.P.S: I'm actually grateful that this game is still receiving updates and content, so thanks and shoutout to the devs (pls buff).

That_guy44
05-18-2017, 03:49 AM
Kensei is the least scariest character in the game imo

BeefMan_
05-18-2017, 03:56 AM
Dunno
He's probably the only character in this game that's actually balanced

CoyoteXStarrk
05-18-2017, 04:39 AM
I hear people say Kensei is gimped and needs help and I just keep my mouth shut because other than the PK Kensei is the ONLY hero I have consistent trouble against if the guy is good.


I can beat a good player on any hero 90% of the time I feel, but the moment I hit a Kensei that knows EXACTLY what he is doing I lose 95% of the time and I have no idea why

dekot11
05-18-2017, 04:48 AM
I hear people say Kensei is gimped and needs help and I just keep my mouth shut because other than the PK Kensei is the ONLY hero I have consistent trouble against if the guy is good.


I can beat a good player on any hero 90% of the time I feel, but the moment I hit a Kensei that knows EXACTLY what he is doing I lose 95% of the time and I have no idea why

Do you have trouble blocking/parrying his swift strike?

CoyoteXStarrk
05-18-2017, 04:52 AM
Do you have trouble blocking/parrying his swift strike?

I have trouble with his everything.


For some reason the way I play my Beserker just does not compute against him.

bmason1000
05-18-2017, 04:59 AM
I hear people say Kensei is gimped and needs help and I just keep my mouth shut because other than the PK Kensei is the ONLY hero I have consistent trouble against if the guy is good.


I can beat a good player on any hero 90% of the time I feel, but the moment I hit a Kensei that knows EXACTLY what he is doing I lose 95% of the time and I have no idea why

Saaaame. Been this way since launch. I'll admit I've gotten a hell of a lot better against them since then, but that's if we consider 95% loss rate "a lot better" than 100 haha. You're a berserker too, right? Maybe that's somehow our trouble.

I know i consistently misjudge his range. I eat frequent hits because i think I'm far enough away and neverrr am. And i STILL get mixed up by that dodge attack too. I know I'm supposed to block the opposite direction but i never do. He gets halfway through the attack animation and i think "oh son of a b*** i did it again." So disappointed in myself.

Both really easy fixes on my part and i still keep suckin.

dekot11
05-18-2017, 05:01 AM
I have trouble with his everything.


For some reason the way I play my Beserker just does not compute against him.

Kensei's easiest match-up is zerker imo

bmason1000
05-18-2017, 05:01 AM
I have trouble with his everything.


For some reason the way I play my Beserker just does not compute against him.

Haha there it is

DrExtrem
05-18-2017, 06:50 AM
His strafe attack is unnerving.

I know I have to block the opposite side but my instincts are often stronger.

Mudflaaaps
05-18-2017, 07:18 AM
I'll give you some advice as a kensei mainer.
The one main form or attack is top light. It's the fastest he has and the indicator doesn't seem to show up properly to opponents (console anyway).
The dash top light has same properties, but can be followed with a finisher.
Basically, block that top attack and a kensei is useless.

I use a lot of feints, about all you can do really. But after two feint combos you're out of stamina. Wait for this, punish.

Only other thing worth noting is zone attack feinting which I find stupid but other people use it quite effectively. Just feinting it half way through and top light attack, it's very hard to see coming unless you expect it.

Herbstlicht
05-18-2017, 08:36 AM
Yep, i can attest to that. Kensei top light is rather fast, indicator showing rather late, so it is his easiest way to hit someone. Specially on console, it is almost impossible to parry and for assassins hard to block. Not impossible though.
All other attacks however can be easily (and i really mean easily)
parried
deflected
blocked
dodged
Right now I have fun with my Shinobi. Except for the top light (not the jump attack, that's a free parry as well) it is incredibly easy to deal with his kit. Only Kenseis hitting me are those that come from behind in Dominion. Those normally almost kill me on approach -.-
Anyway, in duel, Kensei is incredibly weak. I don't play Berserker much, but as Kensei vs Zerker, I think Kensei has the following advantage: If you aren't a parry- and defence god, the game would match you with incredible bad players only, due to relative weakness of the class. So I honestly believe if you meet a Kensei player, his average skill is beyond the skill of many other opponents you are facing right now.

dekot11
05-18-2017, 09:00 AM
Yep, i can attest to that. Kensei top light is rather fast, indicator showing rather late, so it is his easiest way to hit someone. Specially on console, it is almost impossible to parry and for assassins hard to block. Not impossible though.
All other attacks however can be easily (and i really mean easily)
parried
deflected
blocked
dodged
Right now I have fun with my Shinobi. Except for the top light (not the jump attack, that's a free parry as well) it is incredibly easy to deal with his kit. Only Kenseis hitting me are those that come from behind in Dominion. Those normally almost kill me on approach -.-
Anyway, in duel, Kensei is incredibly weak. I don't play Berserker much, but as Kensei vs Zerker, I think Kensei has the following advantage: If you aren't a parry- and defence god, the game would match you with incredible bad players only, due to relative weakness of the class. So I honestly believe if you meet a Kensei player, his average skill is beyond the skill of many other opponents you are facing right now.

I agree, if you play kensei and your top light and helm splitter and swift strike don't consistently get blocked or parried then I don't think you should talk about how kensei is balanced. And vice versa if you consistently get hit by those moves you shouldn't be talking about how kensei is okay.

And I think all kensei needs to be viable is anything that lets him get to his unblockable easier, maybe through safe dash attack on block or a faster second light. Once you're in mix-up I don't care how good your opponent is, most people fall for unblockable > feint > top light and after you hit them a couple times with that you have a whole bunch of options.

Hillbill79
05-18-2017, 11:05 AM
His strafe attack is unnerving.

I know I have to block the opposite side but my instincts are often stronger.

And his ability to chain that dodge attack straight into a top unblockable, which you can let fly or feint into a side uninterruptable heavy or a guard break makes it one of his stronger moves.

Hard not to get damage from it.

bmason1000
05-18-2017, 01:02 PM
His strafe attack is unnerving.

I know I have to block the opposite side but my instincts are often stronger.nailed it

Rikuto01.tv
05-18-2017, 01:08 PM
Incomin rant (kinda?):
I don't understand how Ubisoft can buff Raider to the point where he's actually not a bad character in the slightest and then not only directly nerf Kensei's execution speed but also his unlock tech. Is it really necessary? I understand that it was an exploit used by some characters besides Kensei but honestly at this point, he needed everything he could get. You guys saw the tournament, you know how turtley the game can get. If you didn't see the tournament, it mostly consisted of using unblock-able moves out the gate and then feinting either said unblock-able or a heavy. Kensei does not viably have these options available to him since all of his moves outside of helmsplitter are so slow, players don't even have to try to parry anything outside the top light.

Ok, might have gotten A LIL off topic but I'm pretty curious as to what Ubisoft's thoughts are on how Kensei is as a character. I love him to death and it made me sad that not a single one was used in tournament. He's only gotten nerfs, save for the attack speed boost on his side attacks "which should make them safer on block" or however they put it, which is true in the sense that if I place a drop of water on a thirsty plant, I "watered" it. :(

Don't get me wrong, the 1st hit in chain cancel into the 3rd hit was basically a godsend but if we're real with each other, it was needed. Every other character had an opener besides him. Heck, he still barely has one.

TL;DR Can someone explain why nerfing kensei has seemed to be a trend? Is he just the joke character people aren't supposed to play seriously?

Edit P.S.: I know other characters also need a bit of loving. I'm just down since I play kensei almost exclusively.

P.P.S: I'm actually grateful that this game is still receiving updates and content, so thanks and shoutout to the devs (pls buff).

I hate to tell you this, but the raider is still terrible.

I mean you can now spend 75% of your stamina to now "mix up" into a fully reactable light attack that can realistically be followed up with nothing decent. Doesn't count as much of a game changer.

I guess there is the stamina drain buff as well, which is decent, but.... ok, what are you going to do once you drain your opponents stamina? Everything is still too slow to open anyone. Meh.

OnyxCoffee
05-18-2017, 08:04 PM
ikr

Blasto95
05-18-2017, 08:28 PM
Incomin rant (kinda?):
I don't understand how Ubisoft can buff Raider to the point where he's actually not a bad character in the slightest and then not only directly nerf Kensei's execution speed but also his unlock tech. Is it really necessary? I understand that it was an exploit used by some characters besides Kensei but honestly at this point, he needed everything he could get. You guys saw the tournament, you know how turtley the game can get. If you didn't see the tournament, it mostly consisted of using unblock-able moves out the gate and then feinting either said unblock-able or a heavy. Kensei does not viably have these options available to him since all of his moves outside of helmsplitter are so slow, players don't even have to try to parry anything outside the top light.

Ok, might have gotten A LIL off topic but I'm pretty curious as to what Ubisoft's thoughts are on how Kensei is as a character. I love him to death and it made me sad that not a single one was used in tournament. He's only gotten nerfs, save for the attack speed boost on his side attacks "which should make them safer on block" or however they put it, which is true in the sense that if I place a drop of water on a thirsty plant, I "watered" it. :(

Don't get me wrong, the 1st hit in chain cancel into the 3rd hit was basically a godsend but if we're real with each other, it was needed. Every other character had an opener besides him. Heck, he still barely has one.

TL;DR Can someone explain why nerfing kensei has seemed to be a trend? Is he just the joke character people aren't supposed to play seriously?

Edit P.S.: I know other characters also need a bit of loving. I'm just down since I play kensei almost exclusively.

P.P.S: I'm actually grateful that this game is still receiving updates and content, so thanks and shoutout to the devs (pls buff).

Id like you to please list the past nerfs kensei has recieved, since apparently its a trend now...

Execution extended 100ms...seriously calling that nerf? Unless it was the fastest execution in the game, there's no reason to extend it beyond making it look better in the time frame that its active. And if its not Kenseis fastest execution, then its a straight up buff for him lol. More execution time=more health. You have one execution for show/health regen and one for the fastest animation possible.

Unlock tech as you said was fixed for everyone. If thats considered a nerf to any hero, it immediately goes to Raider, no question about it. And Id bet Kensei still has a few unlock techs, just not unparryable. Last week I was still able to Unlock-Turn Around-Zone Attack for a near instant hit, right into a feint leaving little room for punishment.

Besides that, Kensei has not been touched in any major way since that ONE chain nerf he had months ago. And that was at the same time or right after he received one of the bigger buffs in the game right around the end of beta/release.

Kensei has not been the target of nerfs, thats laughable. He just hasnt been an AWFUL character. Not every hero can be the best. Kensei needs a few small changes just to make him viable at a high level. Currently hes 100% fine to use for 95% of the playerbase, just not an amazing character.

mathi4s
05-18-2017, 09:48 PM
I think this entire hate kensei thing is a console exclusive. With 30fps it's probably hard to react even to the side lights of the kensei even though on the PC no one even uses them without a elaborate feinting minigame and then they still get blocked. No one uses the helm splitter either. It's just too risky, just like every dash in front attack. The swift strike is an utterly utterly useless move. Whatever you were trying to punish with it its more likely the enemy recovers before you hit him. Blocks the swift strike and gets a free GB on you. So how else can you get to the mixup? you go for the heavy combo and get parried. I guarantee it. Without the mixup kensei is nothing. Ok. Ok. You can still parry someone and GB or you could bait a parry and then GB (Something that every class can do) . Do a side heavy. Then another one and there you have the flames of the unblockable. A sick mixup is coming. Unless he won't try to parry me because he doesn't have to. On the PC a player can reliably block and counterguardbreak everything a kensei can do. He can then just poke me to death or vortex me while I'm feinting like an idiot. All the console players problably wont believe me because they can't imagine how reactable everything is when you have 60fps. But I swear that things are that bad for the kensei.

Panty_Ninja
05-18-2017, 10:12 PM
I think this entire hate kensei thing is a console exclusive. With 30fps it's probably hard to react even to the side lights of the kensei even though on the PC no one even uses them without a elaborate feinting minigame and then they still get blocked. No one uses the helm splitter either. It's just too risky, just like every dash in front attack. The swift strike is an utterly utterly useless move. Whatever you were trying to punish with it its more likely the enemy recovers before you hit him. Blocks the swift strike and gets a free GB on you. So how else can you get to the mixup? you go for the heavy combo and get parried. I guarantee it. Without the mixup kensei is nothing. Ok. Ok. You can still parry someone and GB or you could bait a parry and then GB (Something that every class can do) . Do a side heavy. Then another one and there you have the flames of the unblockable. A sick mixup is coming. Unless he won't try to parry me because he doesn't have to. On the PC a player can reliably block and counterguardbreak everything a kensei can do. He can then just poke me to death or vortex me while I'm feinting like an idiot. All the console players problably wont believe me because they can't imagine how reactable everything is when you have 60fps. But I swear that things are that bad for the kensei.

You nailed it bro.
Kensei's only real option is top light. He has some uses in team fights, as you can slip a dash attack-chain unblockable. But in 1v1 is is probably the worst in the game. On PC his whole combo ender "mixup" is actually very predictable. Unblockable, feint- GB, or top light, are your best bets, but are counter often as well. Throwing the unblockable, or soft feint uninterruptible heavy is parry suicide as well.
Despite his whole Combo ender mixup being flawed. I think they need to maybe make his combo ender start on the 2nd part of the chain. So no longer 3rd.
I know it sounds like alot. But swift strike and helm splitter already essentially do what im proposing. So Light- Ender, or Heavy - Ender.
This would add more pressure to his offense, and still be balanced because it is all completely reactable and heavily punishable ( see parry).
Side note, I know parry punish are already a hot topic. But Kensei often cant even Parry- GB because the range is to far. Using Forward Dash GB doesn't work. Which is another aspect of how useless his Dashing GB is. Also the stunning effect on the throw is completely pointless. Only time you throw some one out of GB as Kensei is into a wall for unblockable, or for environment kill, so the stun is completly useless.
Also I'm not sure why he has such slow sprint speed. By far the slowest Vanguard and Im pretty sure the 2nd slowest character right after Shugoki.

*end salt*

Look I love Kensei and he was the reason I fell in love with For Honor during the betas. Now he just sits in my character select window rep 7 never being played. With all the new tech of Shinobi, and Centurion... alot of the old roster has fallen way behind in practical competitive play. Kensei perhaps the most far behind of all.

Brologna_Xeno
05-18-2017, 10:22 PM
I hate to tell you this, but the raider is still terrible.

I mean you can now spend 75% of your stamina to now "mix up" into a fully reactable light attack that can realistically be followed up with nothing decent...

Realize too this same statement can be said of Kensei. Raider wasn't buffed, I agree. Just long overdue fix to Stampede, which previously were not working as intended. Soft feint tap is laughable, because feints are laughable, which is Kensei's 'theme' too. See, there's room for two, misery loves company.

..
..

If folks here are struggling vs Kensei, spend 10 minutes to practice VS a lvl3 bot. Just turtle. It's fun. Every single attack Kensei has is Parry-punishable. Stay in top guard, why? His top light. He shows you something else, wait until he's commited to it and you punish that ****. That's what's fun about fighting against a Kensei, he's so damn punishable. Everything short of his top light can be answered with a maximum punish counter. (And if you're a Warden/WL/Conqueror/more you can even have fun with the top light).

Have to dispel some BS about his third hit change-ups. It is only a mind game if you **** up.

Every possible change-up in his third hit his leaves more than enough time to observe and react. His change-ups are not 50/50s, they're not guessing games. Just ****ing sit back and watch what he does. Every change-up leaves time to defend or counter. It he hits you, it's only because you were too hasty in responding... Only Top UB cancel -> top light is hard to react to, but that is why you stay in top ****ing guard, remember?

Kensei's only successful strat is to bait parry and wall throw for guaranteed Top heavy. That is all Kensei can do against anyone who's putting forth effort. And the fact he has a guaranteed heavy off GB is the reason people suggest he's 'stronger' than a Raider.

Will concede assassins have a harder time against him because of reflex guard and the impulse to dodge-attack counter everything. Focus on parrying his attacks, not dodging. Only deflect if you're a Zerker, his Armor'd third hit can out hit-trade your deflect counter. But know when feint windows pass, which, on side attacks, is after the blade passes the shoulder. It's slow enough to read. All his heavies are, save first top heavy, ...but that's why you stay in top guard. And again if you're a Conq/Warden/WL you can punish that lol-top-heavy-feint-light garbage too.

Devs in a patch note went out of their way to mention Top Heavy -> Feint -> Top Light is Kensei's opener.. Grasping Pounce, Helm Splitter guess those are just for counter.


Besides that, Kensei has not been touched in any major way since that ONE chain nerf he had months ago.

His last adjustment was reduction of the superior block duration on his dashes (which coincided with the removal of the 2nd hit from the Helm Splitter / Swift Strike chain).

As I mentioned before, his most significant nerf was his speed and dash nerfs that were stealth implemented at launch. Anyone who main'd Kensei during beta, took the 3 day break after servers went down, then bought the game and started playing again at launch would have noticed their Kensei was made sluggish.

Consider, other than his 1 > 2 > 3 combo, all Kensei has left in his move-set are the dash attacks. So changes to dash are significant to Kensei.

And that, like his other nerfs, is frustrating because: WHY? No one complained about Kensei in beta, but apparently he was OP.

No one complained about his superior block on dash, hell most Kensei don't even bother utlizing it, yet still they nerf it.

The other significant change Kensei suffered is the nerf to GB after launch. GBs were harder to counter then. But people *****ed and they made GBs easy to interrupt again (if not easier). That hurt Kensei because the harder GB actually made Grasping Pounce and the 3rd-hit GB change-up threatening.

And because Kensei and the other low-tier classes depend on GB, that easy-GB-interrupt change put them in an even worse place. But of course there was all the crying over Warlord ledging so they had to do it.

that chain nerf wasn't even a big deal for me. It was only available on Swift Strike and it was still blocked as easily as the 2nd light. Feinting it was the only thing it was good for, but we can still do that..

..oh wait we can't because they took the 2nd hit out of SStrike entirely.

UbiNoty
05-19-2017, 12:23 AM
We're planning some incoming buffs for Kensei (As well as Orochi + Nobushi) - no specifics to give out yet but it'll be coming up soon.

Netcode_err_404
05-19-2017, 12:46 AM
We're planning some incoming buffs for Kensei (As well as Orochi + Nobushi) - no specifics to give out yet but it'll be coming up soon.

I apreciate the focus of the whole team regarding the balancing of each class, but is POINTLESS until you guys don't fix defensive gamestyle..

Who cares if you give him amazing combo if all I need to do is block all and parry > GB insta ledge kill ?

UbiNoty
05-19-2017, 01:22 AM
I apreciate the focus of the whole team regarding the balancing of each class, but is POINTLESS until you guys don't fix defensive gamestyle..

Who cares if you give him amazing combo if all I need to do is block all and parry > GB insta ledge kill ?

That's also coming. In fact the Kensei changes were pushed back so we could focus on addressing the def meta problems. It's also why we're pushing back changes to heroes like conqueror because we want to wait to balance him after the def meta patch.

CoyoteXStarrk
05-19-2017, 01:27 AM
We're planning some incoming buffs for Kensei (As well as Orochi + Nobushi) - no specifics to give out yet but it'll be coming up soon.

Noty I know you are good people man, but do you ever feel a slight cringe everytime you have to use the word "Soon" to us?

I mean most of us understand of course. You can't say anything definitive or use any timelines because you know they will be thrown back in your face.



But its gotta sting right? lol

FIX.THE.KENSEI
05-19-2017, 01:46 AM
Yes maybe....

But still we need what was mentioned above, keep in mind that Kenseis, we can not practically enjoy the 1v1 because we lack a good or effective opening combat, our zone attack is practically nonexistent, with insignificant damage and our chains of light and heavy attacks are very slow easy to block. suffering hight recovering time after parry..,.

Our superior heavy attack is too well known and we rarely can use it as an offensive possibility, since its ease to be blocked....On 1v1 if I am not attacked practically my only alternative is gb my opponent and at a good level of play, this is very difficult to happen as a first move...

The timing of our dodge was increased, causing the Kensei slow down to avoid some spam attacks. The dodge ability was our great alternative ... ´´our buff`` but was modified after the first 1.03 update (kensei hide nerff) .... To break a defense based on total block and spam push with only gb or light attack?... puuuuff ....to bad

Anyway i think that future buff will be very welcome....

UbiNoty
05-19-2017, 02:04 AM
Noty I know you are good people man, but do you ever feel a slight cringe everytime you have to use the word "Soon" to us?

I mean most of us understand of course. You can't say anything definitive or use any timelines because you know they will be thrown back in your face.



But its gotta sting right? lol

I die a little every time. I'm basically just an empty shell of a human right now.

CoyoteXStarrk
05-19-2017, 02:08 AM
I die a little every time. I'm basically just an empty shell of a human right now.

Right there with you man.

https://media.giphy.com/media/wloGlwOXKijy8/giphy.gif