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View Full Version : New characters ARE over powered, and here is the really REAL reason why!!!



Alustar.
05-18-2017, 02:04 AM
So, get this, it donned on me after reading a player's post who I am pretty sure we have likely not agreed on a single damn thing. Yet here we are, now both arguing the same side to an argument against the idiocy of players getting ruffled before learning things.

Basically what I am saying, to bring this full circle, is that you nubblets out there are getting crushed by new classes, and the single greatest thing they did was unite the veteran players under one banner.

Long Live L2P!!!

Fenrirwolf24
05-18-2017, 02:07 AM
Lol the new characters do need some tweaks here and there but really they are not really that op. I played Valk for awhile and was just destroying Centurions.

CoyoteXStarrk
05-18-2017, 02:12 AM
The ONLY thing that I could see being tweaked is the Shinobi's dodge kick.


Other than that I see absolutely nothing wrong with either of the heroes. In my opinion the salt is coming from players whose mains are Mid to Low Tier and are mad that these new heroes are better out of the box than their old ones.


Its like players think that because they are NEW they shouldn't be as good as or better than the old ones. Why shouldn't they? The new Heroes are Mid to High Tier out of the box. How is us having two new great options to play a BAD thing?


Its like someone giving you two delicious steaks and then you start complaining that these steaks are BETTER than the steaks they gave you last week.


It makes no sense.

Sykoink
05-18-2017, 02:14 AM
It seems people only read your title and not the actual post lol

Alustar.
05-18-2017, 04:08 AM
It seems people only read your title and not the actual post lol

I love social experiments.

UrWaifuAintReal
05-18-2017, 04:24 AM
The ONLY thing that I could see being tweaked is the Shinobi's dodge kick.


Other than that I see absolutely nothing wrong with either of the heroes. In my opinion the salt is coming from players whose mains are Mid to Low Tier and are mad that these new heroes are better out of the box than their old ones.


Its like players think that because they are NEW they shouldn't be as good as or better than the old ones. Why shouldn't they? The new Heroes are Mid to High Tier out of the box. How is us having two new great options to play a BAD thing?


Its like someone giving you two delicious steaks and then you start complaining that these steaks are BETTER than the steaks they gave you last week.


It makes no sense.

Well, I've been playing Raider , who is still a low tier hero and I have no problem beating either of them (except laggy shinobi who is really pure cancer), we'll still have too see how much of their kit is actually useful against good players and so far I've seen nothing from centurion (the trick is to not rely on the indicator but the animations as to not get fooled by Centurion mixups, not to rely on parrying but dodging as centurion whiffed attacks are very punishable) and only the kick from shinobi.

OLomasO
05-18-2017, 04:50 AM
This argument doesn't make any sense......It's like you're saying there are only a couple of characters that should be playable relative to the time they were released. i think the new characters are better than the entire list of current heroes. If you don't properly defend their first attack their combos are guaranteed. No other class had combos that deal the damage they do while taking about your opponents stamina at the same time. This isn't a matter of "tiers". It's bad design. Which is why this game hasn't seen a competitive scene at all. Just poor design... Hopefully they can have the other classes "catch up" to the new ones because this game just because For Honor: Cent and shino only edition.

razabak10mm
05-18-2017, 05:43 AM
I kinda see them like the PK. She's got a learning curve of about 14 seconds, then you can start wrecking ppl. It didn't take long for shins and cents to start wrecking ppl.

Whereas, if I pick up a different hero that I have really never played like LB or kensei I'm going to get totally owned, and I should.

The learning curve should work both ways. People should lose to the new heros because they don't know them. Also the new heros should lose because people don't know how to play them.

You can judge for yourself what's happening.

Personally I think they were made this way to promote the product. I'm not against this. On the surface I think it looks smart. I mean why bother buying new heros if they suck right?

I also think they over played their hand and went too far with it if they drive ppl away from the game because they feel they can't play the heros that they like.

I'm guessing Ubi wants a game thats fun to play for the top 90% and not just the top 2%.

I'll say it so you don't have too. I should just git gud.

BeefMan_
05-18-2017, 05:46 AM
I kinda see them like the PK. She's got a learning curve of about 14 seconds, then you can start wrecking ppl. It didn't take long for shins and cents to start wrecking ppl.

Whereas, if I pick up a different hero that I have really never played like LB or kensei I'm going to get totally owned, and I should.

The learning curve should work both ways. People should lose to the new heros because they don't know them. Also the new heros should lose because people don't know how to play them.

You can judge for yourself what's happening.

Personally I think they were made this way to promote the product. I'm not against this. On the surface I think it looks smart. I mean why bother buying new heros if they suck right?

I also think they over played their hand and went too far with it if they drive ppl away from the game because they feel they can't play the heros that they like.

I'm guessing Ubi wants a game thats fun to play for the top 90% and not just the top 2%.

I'll say it so you don't have too. I should just git gud.


This. Pretty sure they deliberately released broken characters in order to promote sales for the season pass.
I'm getting to rep 1 with Cent and I'm not touching this game until both cent and shinobi are fixed.

AmericanBalls
05-18-2017, 05:58 AM
Agreed. I've gotten pretty decent at this game (not top tier by any means, but I can usually hold my own), and I'll keep playing but I think the Cent is pretty frustrating...going against two of them is a nightmare. So many fast unblockables and knockdowns it makes your head spin. I think they really did a poor job balancing them, but they probably did this to promote sales as has been said throughout this thread. Not the end of the world, but its a bit lame at the moment. I'm sure it'll level out though.

razabak10mm
05-18-2017, 01:29 PM
I guess we'll see how it works out. If they drive more ppl to purchase the early content it will be looked at as a good move.

If more ppl go and buy/play a different game instead, then not so much.

Lyskir
05-18-2017, 01:32 PM
the only thing that i could see being tweaked is the shinobi's dodge kick.


Other than that i see absolutely nothing wrong with either of the heroes. In my opinion the salt is coming from players whose mains are mid to low tier and are mad that these new heroes are better out of the box than their old ones.


Its like players think that because they are new they shouldn't be as good as or better than the old ones. Why shouldn't they? The new heroes are mid to high tier out of the box. How is us having two new great options to play a bad thing?


Its like someone giving you two delicious steaks and then you start complaining that these steaks are better than the steaks they gave you last week.


It makes no sense.

this

razabak10mm
05-18-2017, 01:37 PM
Isnt it more like two people are in a cooking contest and one person gets a nice fat juicy steak, and the other some road kill to cook with?

Sure a master chef might be able to make the road kill edible, but most ppl will have an easier time with the steak.

kweassa1917
05-18-2017, 01:57 PM
...that being said, if experience serves me well, my hunch is the Cent and the Shib are probably going to be nerfed.

It's a pattern with any "new classes" introduced in a game. They raise the bar high initially NOT BECAUSE DEVS ARE GREEDY AND THEY WANT PEOPLE TO BUY CLASSES AND THAT GARBAGE SHI*, but because it's easier to first offer a very high-end and powerful model of gameplay and gradually tone it down according to need, instead of going the opposite way which might require you to "build in" new stuff... so after the launch and with a much larger testbed and feedback, they gradually tone it down.

Think of it this way.

It's like building car that the buyers want to be between certain specific levels of performance. They want not too sucky, but not too much of a "hot-rod" either. Then, when you come up with a prototype, do you build it on minimalist approach, which later on, you might be forced to add new stuff in, but might hit trouble because the very basic "frame" of the car cannot support new modules? Or, conversely, do you first come up with a prototype that has just EVERYTHING included, and then simply remove the stuff that the buyers don't deem necessary?

Which is easier to do? It's a no-brainer. That's why "new" classes in games always come out quite strong, and inevitably go through nerfs.


So for those throwing endless tantrums, don't worry. Experience tells me that they'll probably maintain the status quo until season 2, mine and gather data, look it up in tourneys, in normal player matches and stuff, and around the end of season 2 they will start the nerfing.

darkspawn2101
05-18-2017, 02:04 PM
The ONLY thing that I could see being tweaked is the Shinobi's dodge kick.


Other than that I see absolutely nothing wrong with either of the heroes. In my opinion the salt is coming from players whose mains are Mid to Low Tier and are mad that these new heroes are better out of the box than their old ones.


Its like players think that because they are NEW they shouldn't be as good as or better than the old ones. Why shouldn't they? The new Heroes are Mid to High Tier out of the box. How is us having two new great options to play a BAD thing?


Its like someone giving you two delicious steaks and then you start complaining that these steaks are BETTER than the steaks they gave you last week.


It makes no sense.

No, people are angry because their design runs counter to the entire game in two ways.

Cent is just balls out agressive. He is, a desperate attempt to kill the turtle meta. Thing is, the game trained you to think that way. Now it's just unblockables without a dodge system worth a crap and it feels ****ing cheesy.

Shinobi is a ranged character in a melee game and should not exist. Period. Nothing will convince me otherwise.

Their desperate attempts to break the turtle meta. What's worse is learning how to counter them means you need to pay. It's ********, and if you cant see it, you dont want to.

But as people have said, it's a cash-grab. Nothing more or less. Both will be nerfed to 'acceptable' levels and life will go on.

razabak10mm
05-18-2017, 02:04 PM
Wouldn't you like to see the data from the last couple days though? I bet the even the devs are thinking they went a little far.

I'm not saying that salty at all. I think it's kinda funny myself. Like getting shoved off a ledge. Meh. It's all part of the game, might as well laugh it off.

CandleInTheDark
05-18-2017, 02:05 PM
The learning curve should work both ways. People should lose to the new heros because they don't know them. Also the new heros should lose because people don't know how to play them.

Might be they are overpowered, might not, I don't think we can tell until everyone has them, but this is a line of logic I take issue with.

Ok, so I have played shinobi, right? Only before I have played him in pvp, I have spent hours going over his mixups against bots, so I feel that I am reasonably competent with him. So I go into duel or dominion and I meet your raider. I don't know how much you have seen of the shinobi, but let's assume you are like I suspect 75% of the player base without season pass, you've not seen gameplay videos on the den or premiere and you haven't had bot battles against him.

So what we have is me, knowing my shinobi, you, knowing your raider, and here is the very important bit, I have also fought your raider for the last three months, while I am not an expert in him (blatantly, I didn't know the name of stunning tap), I know how about 90% of raider mains will use him. So I have a clear advantage there before we consider the characters and this is why I think we need to wait until everyone has had access to them. If I may drop a quote from a general:


If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.

EmeraldCthulhu
05-18-2017, 02:06 PM
Think of it this way.

It's like building car that the buyers want to be between certain specific levels of performance. They want not too sucky, but not too much of a "hot-rod" either. Then, when you come up with a prototype, do you build it on minimalist approach, which later on, you might be forced to add new stuff in, but might hit trouble because the very basic "frame" of the car cannot support new modules? Or, conversely, do you first come up with a prototype that has just EVERYTHING included, and then simply remove the stuff that the buyers don't deem necessary?

Which is easier to do? It's a no-brainer. That's why "new" classes in games always come out quite strong, and inevitably go through nerfs.


It is a no brainer - you test the car before you sell it, not just go, like Ubi "yeah, this thing is broken as hell, but I'm sure we can get it right after 100 customer or so crushes".

This analogy is terrible.

razabak10mm
05-18-2017, 02:13 PM
I see your point Candle but like I said above, is the learning curve for the new heros on par with the PK? You mave spent the time to study the shin before you jumped into real matches, but that's not the case for 90% of the people playing the new characters. But they are still wrecking ppl. Or at least that is the perception.

In some ways it feels like they doubled down on the complaints we heard about the PK.

CandleInTheDark
05-18-2017, 02:17 PM
I see your point Candle but like I said above, is the learning curve for the new heros on par with the PK? You mave spent the time to study the shin before you jumped into real matches, but that's not the case for 90% of the people playing the new characters. But they are still wrecking ppl. Or at least that is the perception.

In some ways it feels like they doubled down on the complaints we heard about the PK.

I suspect the shinobi is currently hated more than the pk ever was, I induced a two message rage hatemail from one warden, I am used to one liners with my peacekeeper but that was something special lol. I think it does make some difference, I came up against a level one shinobi in duel and I made him ragequit after two rounds because he couldn't lay a sickle anywhere near me (bearing in mind I had the same kit he had). Is it too easy? I don't know, possibly not in duel, possibly in dominion if a player has good situational awareness to avoid 1vx. I suspect you will always have people who spam double light backflip which is at least a little more dangerous than it is for the peacekeeper,some of the more advanced stuff, like if I hit it all I can take most of a warden's lifebar in one chain (charged heavy with the heavy follow-up, forward dodge heavy, three sickle bleed lights which have different timings to the peacekeeper's triple stab, isn't as smooth and consistent) takes both muscle memory and knowing when to throw a charged heavy so it has a chance of hitting.

Duuklah
05-18-2017, 08:05 PM
it should take a week to learn a new character enough to cause as much trouble as the centurion has caused in 4v4 and duels. When someone picks up a new toon they should lose to players who are on their mains with equal skill levels.

Centurion props up bad players with OP mechanics.

CandleInTheDark
05-18-2017, 08:12 PM
it should take a week to learn a new character enough to cause as much trouble as the centurion has caused in 4v4 and duels. When someone picks up a new toon they should lose to players who are on their mains with equal skill levels.

Centurion props up bad players with OP mechanics.

Thing is, what in their kits is actually brand new? Dodge? Can do that. Charged attacks? People have that. Dodge into guardbreak? People have that. Triple stab? Already in the game. Dodge attacks? Already got that, the shinobi has a lot of synergy with my main the peacekeeper. You need to figure the ranges, you have to get specific combinations down to muscle memory, but the only really new thing for me has been double dodge.

Antonioj26
05-18-2017, 08:16 PM
Thing is, what in their kits is actually brand new? Dodge? Can do that. Charged attacks? People have that. Dodge into guardbreak? People have that. Triple stab? Already in the game. Dodge attacks? Already got that, the shinobi has a lot of synergy with my main the peacekeeper. You need to figure the ranges, you have to get specific combinations down to muscle memory, but the only really new thing for me has been double dodge.

Well for starters the fastest unblockable in the game with super armor and has a guaranteed heavy follow up. Just that little ol thing

CandleInTheDark
05-18-2017, 08:20 PM
Well for starters the fastest unblockable in the game with super armor and has a guaranteed heavy follow up. Just that little ol thing

As I said before, not saying whether the kit as a whole is over or underpowered, the point I was answering was people should take a week to be good with a character, my point was there is nothing actually brand new that forces me to use complex button combinations. I'll try to make this clearer. Kick is dodge dodge guardbreak, shoulder bash is dodge guardbreak. Forward roll crush requires forward dodge heavy, the peacekeeper has forward dodge heavy. it isn't like this is tekkan where a new character might have a combination of x b x rt a y b and another might have b rb a b a y x. The button combinations haven't changed overly much.

Antonioj26
05-18-2017, 08:27 PM
As I said before, not saying whether the kit as a whole is over or underpowered, the point I was answering was people should take a week to be good with a character, my point was there is nothing actually brand new that forces me to use complex button combinations. I'll try to make this clearer. Kick is dodge dodge guardbreak, shoulder bash is dodge guardbreak. Forward roll crush requires forward dodge heavy, the peacekeeper has forward dodge heavy. it isn't like this is tekkan where a new character might have a combination of x b x rt a y b and another might have b rb a b a y x. The button combinations haven't changed overly much.

My mistake I read that wrong, guess I'm just getting annoyed with people pretending these characters aren't excellent. They are easily better than the majority of the cast. The top 3 possibly being the exception but even then it's close.