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92SqnGCJimbo
04-25-2004, 04:47 PM
now im an aviation buff and i was just wandering if anyone has ever noticed how at the close of ww2 both britian and america had prop fighter that could top 450mph. where as the russians could only top 410mph. its like at the end of ww2 britian and america were just trying to see who could go faster lol. i mean its not as if we needed them as russia could make do with the slower planes...
just thought id raise the point

92SqnGCJimbo
04-25-2004, 04:47 PM
now im an aviation buff and i was just wandering if anyone has ever noticed how at the close of ww2 both britian and america had prop fighter that could top 450mph. where as the russians could only top 410mph. its like at the end of ww2 britian and america were just trying to see who could go faster lol. i mean its not as if we needed them as russia could make do with the slower planes...
just thought id raise the point

92SqnGCJimbo
04-25-2004, 04:50 PM
and please be aware that i said prop fighters. if anyone mentions the bell x series going supersonic id just like to mention the british were the first to 1000mph...

chris455
04-25-2004, 05:50 PM
Yeah, we noticed.

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/p47n2.jpg

VW-IceFire
04-25-2004, 08:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jimbolina25:
now im an aviation buff and i was just wandering if anyone has ever noticed how at the close of ww2 both britian and america had prop fighter that could top 450mph. where as the russians could only top 410mph. its like at the end of ww2 britian and america were just trying to see who could go faster lol. i mean its not as if we needed them as russia could make do with the slower planes...
just thought id raise the point<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
However, in most of those cases the Russian fighters were faster in their element than the similar high speed fighters that the RAF and USAAF were feilding.

The La-7 was fastest at low altitude. The only really fast allied fighter at low altitude was the Tempest V which did have the La-7 beat but the La-7 has other advantages so there are tradeoffs. Meanwhile the Spit XIV or the P-51H or P-47M/N that you are probably refering to were generally reaching their top speeds at higher altitudes.

So once again, Russian aircraft typically suited for low alt tactical support and the others for higher altitude strategic support. Unlike the militaries of today...the major powers of WWII essentially had the same technological level...

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/tmv-sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

jenikovtaw
04-25-2004, 11:10 PM
And also, who cares about latewar super mega 2800HP P47N? It ruled the skies after the back of the enemy was broken, so to speak.

horseback
04-26-2004, 05:36 AM
USAAF and RAF fighter designs were philosophically built on the "speed is life" model, particularly at at medium to high altitudes. Speed dictates the tactics, in the sense that it allows the pilot with the energy advantage to decide whether to engage, or if the attack was unsuccessful, to disengage from a potentially bad situation.

Also, it was the one advantage of a new, expensive fighter that the average taxpayer could grasp. For a democracy (or a country with pretensions to democracy), the military budget is as much about public relations as it is about defending the country. So the idea that "our planes fly higher and faster" is more reassuring than "our planes have good accelleration and turn really tight."

Soviet designs were based on the concept of protecting the sky over the Red Army, and supporting the ground units (and not p!ssing off Stalin). Where the Germans had forced the air war in the ETO and Med higher with their early bombing campaigns, the lack of strategic targets in their medium bombers' range in Russia allowed the Soviets to dictate where the air combat would take place.

But Soviet designs got faster in their arena of choice too.

BTW, jenikovtaw, the P-47C was pretty fast at 9000m too, and it was in-theater in the Spring of 1943, in plenty of time to break the enemy's back. The N model was just an incremental improvement of an existing design.

cheers

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944

Cajun76
04-26-2004, 06:21 AM
Not to say that the Jug was slow at low altitudes, it just shone better the higher it went. At one time I made a comparasion to a 109G6 and a P-47D-35. The 109 was only slightly faster on the deck than the D-35. But as stated, speed is life, otherwise 2000hp Gladiators would have ruled the skies. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Turning was less than a big deal later in the war at high alt. Low alt tactical combat is a differant story, but speed is still extremely useful. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Good hunting,
Cajun76

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v30/Cajun76/Real_35a.gif
What if there were no hypothetical questions?

ShVAK
04-26-2004, 07:31 AM
jenikovtaw:

Your disrespect for the P-47N is noted; however, I'll be watching for the fear on your face when she appears in this game by way of a future patch.

The P-47J was the fastest of the Jugs anyway, but was not produced. She too was in flight well prior to "breaking the enemies back".


"If you want full realism, join the military!"

CooperF4E
04-26-2004, 12:19 PM
I've never heard of the P-47J. I've heard of the P-47M which was slightly faster than the N model, but only had six .50 cal. guns. as opposed to eight.

The P-47N was still the ultimate Jug, and certainly nothing to joke about.

When I think about it I wonder why the USAAF (later USAF) didn't keep the P-47D/N for a fighter-bomber instead of the P-51 (later F-51). I think the P-47 could have been much more useful over Korea than the P-51, at the very least for being much more durable than the P-51.

Cajun76
04-26-2004, 03:07 PM
Slight correction, it was an XP-47J, an in house experimental model by Republic, nearly a year before the first V-1's were launched. The M was developed concurrently with the J, but had fewer, less costly modifications for mass production. The M used a P-47D-30-RE as the base airframe and as far as I know, the M carried 8 guns, but it's gross weight was much lighter than a regular Jug. It's empty weight was actually a tad heavier than a D model, and it had that screaming R-2800 with 2800hp under the hood.

Someone around here made a very good post about the fact that the P-47 wasn't used for ground pounding in Korea, but one of the best points he made is that the N in particular was used in the Continental US for border defense, since it had longer legs and was more reliable than the early jets, and it had better speed at altitude than the P-51. It may have had even more range than the P-51. Chapter 8 in the link I'm posting has that stated, but I'm not sure just how much farther the N could go. 2300mi is what I can come up with for the P-47N.

P-47 Chapter 7 (http://home.att.net/~historyzone/Seversky-Republic7.html)

Good hunting,
Cajun76

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v30/Cajun76/Real_35a.gif
What if there were no hypothetical questions?

lrrp22
04-26-2004, 03:37 PM
"However, in most of those cases the Russian fighters were faster in their element than the similar high speed fighters that the RAF and USAAF were feilding."

That's really only true in FB. By Summer '44, Spit XIV's, P-51's, and Tempests were as fast or faster at sea level than anything the Russians had, La-7 included.

The P-51H was insanely fast for a prop at all altitudes.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VW-IceFire:

However, in most of those cases the Russian fighters were faster in their element than the similar high speed fighters that the RAF and USAAF were feilding.

The La-7 was fastest at low altitude. The only really fast allied fighter at low altitude was the Tempest V which did have the La-7 beat but the La-7 has other advantages so there are tradeoffs. Meanwhile the Spit XIV or the P-51H or P-47M/N that you are probably refering to were generally reaching their top speeds at higher altitudes.

So once again, Russian aircraft typically suited for low alt tactical support and the others for higher altitude strategic support. Unlike the militaries of today...the major powers of WWII essentially had the same technological level...

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/tmv-sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

grist
04-26-2004, 06:10 PM
What about the XP-72? Its max speed was 490mph and was going to be armed with 4 x 37MM cannon. It just didn't have the range, which the Army considered to be more important than speed.

http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/p72.htm

horseback
04-26-2004, 07:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CooperF4E:
I've never heard of the P-47J. I've heard of the P-47M which was slightly faster than the N model, but only had six .50 cal. guns. as opposed to eight.

The P-47N was still the ultimate Jug, and certainly nothing to joke about.

When I think about it I wonder why the USAAF (later USAF) didn't keep the P-47D/N for a fighter-bomber instead of the P-51 (later F-51). I think the P-47 could have been much more useful over Korea than the P-51, at the very least for being much more durable than the P-51.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My old man retired from the USAF in 1971 after over twenty years. He was an air traffic controller in the UK during Korea. When I asked him about the apparent unwisdom of using P-51s in Korea when they had all those late model P-47Ds and Ns still on the rolls, he said that a lot of 'em were kept in Europe, just in case the Korean War was just a diversion for the invasion of Western Europe.

He said that he saw bunches of them going through RAF Wethersfield in 51-55, but next to no Mustangs.

cheers

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944

Ki_Rin
04-28-2004, 12:47 PM
Rebuplic also had a one-off XP-47 H, I think powered by a Chrysler engine, that the manufacterer claimed could top 500 mph level flight...under what conditions, eg alt, fully or partially loaded, etc, I don't know
To bad the D.H. Hornet didn't get in any WW2 combat, now that was a sexy a.c., even nicer than it's forebear, the Mosquito, and very very fast, too