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View Full Version : Blocking heavy attacks should drain stamina



wethebishop
05-14-2017, 07:54 PM
It's in the title.

Eat that, turtlers.

Edit:

This game has abilities that drain stamina. These same abilities are harder to react to than a heavy, guarantee free damage, and typically come with very little risk, whereas a heavy attack is easy to react to and comes with significant risk. It makes sense and is one way to address the turtle meta.

FinnOfTheHorde
05-14-2017, 08:00 PM
No.

Berard_Gutler
05-14-2017, 08:09 PM
Get a life please

wethebishop
05-14-2017, 08:51 PM
Thank you, BerardGutler. I'll take that into serious consideration.

bmason1000
05-14-2017, 09:10 PM
Can someone explain to me why this is such a bad idea that it was just written off completely by two people instead of being countered?

wethebishop
05-14-2017, 09:13 PM
how about NO... and apparently pass the salt.

I understand that you disagree, but how is making this suggestion salty?

Antonioj26
05-14-2017, 09:24 PM
I understand that you disagree, but how is making this suggestion salty?

LOL SO SALTY DUDE, YOURE SO MAD!!! XD.

Seriously though what's wrong with this idea he put forward? its such a tiny change and with enough of these small changes we can find a healthy place for the game to be rather then full on revamping the way defense and offense work.

Moondyne_MC
05-14-2017, 10:40 PM
I understand that you disagree, but how is making this suggestion salty?

Lol people just like to throw around buzz words without really knowing what they're saying. I actually like this idea, it'd put more risk/reward in to parrying, and potentially allow for more combos.

Mudflaaaps
05-14-2017, 10:58 PM
It's not a bad idea at all, id like to see something similar in theory. But it hardly negates the turtle meta alone.
You'd get your opponent drained, then they'd back off and turtle even more till its back. Pointless cycle.

Now, if they implemented your stamina drain on block (and parry?), PLUS made it so drained enemies fall from any attack blocked or unblocked (which I've been saying since day one), you might have yourself a nice little turtle negation.

Throw in 'no dodges whilst out of stamina' and a 'no parries whilst drained' and boom, you're successfully negated the turtle meta I think.

Pillow_Hands
05-14-2017, 11:09 PM
I say just add bigger chip damage. If they're going to turtle, and only rely on safe moves, then they shouldn't be rewarded for sitting there and just blocking everything, not even attempting to parry because a parry attempt is unsafe. People would turtle less, and bring this game back to baiting parries/deflects, and attempting parries/deflects, if blocking only negated half the damage.

Would also make the flow of a fight a lot faster than the staring contest it usually is now.

Antonioj26
05-14-2017, 11:11 PM
It's not a bad idea at all, id like to see something similar in theory. But it hardly negates the turtle meta alone.
You'd get your opponent drained, then they'd back off and turtle even more till its back. Pointless cycle.

Now, if they implemented your stamina drain on block (and parry?), PLUS made it so drained enemies fall from any attack blocked or unblocked (which I've been saying since day one), you might have yourself a nice little turtle negation.

Throw in 'no dodges whilst out of stamina' and a 'no parries whilst drained' and boom, you're successfully negated the turtle meta I think.

Problem with this are there are heroes that excel at destroying stamina and keeping it down including one you already out in god tier (LB). That much of a punish on exhaustion would change the turtle meta-into a drain meta. I do sort of think exhaustion isn't punished nearly enough but there are heroes that can capitalize on it really really well And tweaking it may make those heroes completely broken. It's a tough game of balance

wethebishop
05-14-2017, 11:21 PM
If you no longer got a free GB from parrying a heavy, it would also make it much more comfortable to attack with heavies and would keep the game flowing more. Since you would also expect more heavies to be thrown out, more parries would happen within a given game, as heavies are easier to parry. Currently, when you parry a heavy, you get stamina drain on the enemy and a free GB (except parrying Nobushi's heavy will get you nothing with most characters). It would be nice if you just got stamina drain and a free light.

Also, if they did implement stamina drain from blocking a heavy attack, the value of drain could be on a theoretical slider. A drain close to 0 stamina is insignificant, while a drain close to 100% would cause the whole game to revolve around it. They could find a reasonable number somewhere between there, obviously closer to 0 than to 100%.

UbiJurassic
05-14-2017, 11:38 PM
That's an interesting solution! We're happy to hear the community coming up with unique ideas to help address the turtle meta. The only downside I can see with heavy attacks casing stamina drain on turtles is that it still leaves the player open to a free guardbreak at the start of the heavy animation.

Antonioj26 has also raised a good point regarding concern of the "out of stamina" state turning into a new meta. While there isn't too much danger to the current "out of stamina" state, we are looking to make it more dangerous for players in the future when we introduce our own fixes to address the turtle meta.

Father_Giliam
05-14-2017, 11:39 PM
This

drained enemies fall from any attack blocked or unblocked (which I've been saying since day one)

Combined with this

Throw in 'no dodges whilst out of stamina' and a 'no parries whilst drained'

Would kill the game. This would mean that when a person runs out of stamina, they die. Only if they have the sprint while out of stamina feat would they stand a chance, which even then would only work if they are faster then their opponent(s).

Both of those suggestions have some merit to them individually, but combined would entirely destroy the game.

wethebishop
05-15-2017, 01:29 AM
The good thing is that there seems to be many different solutions.

kweassa1917
05-15-2017, 01:41 AM
While interesting, it sounds more like a Berserker conspiracy to me. :D

Mudflaaaps
05-15-2017, 04:30 AM
Well yeah, if you make adjustments to the way blocking works you're going to get a fundamentally different system of defense altogether.

My idea wasn't perfect, but it would essentially force people to play carefully and conservatively. Yknow, as if they were ACTUALLY fighting with sharp swords?
Stamina drain isn't really punishable by most characters, nor is attacking in general.

Hell, I'd like to see a hard-core mode with similar rules to what I've described, as well as the original posters idea.
Lots of emphasis on attack and feint games, less on defense and 'free hits', more punishment on stamina drain.

There have been several fighting games that follow those exact rules that are perfectly balanced, it can work theoretically.

Antonioj26
05-15-2017, 05:53 AM
Well yeah, if you make adjustments to the way blocking works you're going to get a fundamentally different system of defense altogether.

My idea wasn't perfect, but it would essentially force people to play carefully and conservatively. Yknow, as if they were ACTUALLY fighting with sharp swords?
Stamina drain isn't really punishable by most characters, nor is attacking in general.

Hell, I'd like to see a hard-core mode with similar rules to what I've described, as well as the original posters idea.
Lots of emphasis on attack and feint games, less on defense and 'free hits', more punishment on stamina drain.

There have been several fighting games that follow those exact rules that are perfectly balanced, it can work theoretically.

I think it would Acheieve the opposite. Feinting takes up quite a bit a stam as it is and people will be less likely to do it since your proposal is a death sentence if you run out. When it comes to out of stam punishes conq, WL, LB, raider, warden can really capitalize with some insane damage with their unblockables and the more the oos person guesses wrong the longer they stay out of stam. Assasssins have a much better chance against these characters since their dodge is so good but if caught early in the oos state before they can dodge away it's gonna hurt. 4 of the characters I mentioned are already doing really well draining stam and the fifth is going to get a lot better at draining stam come Tuesday. This means the characters that have always dominated will continue to dominate. I don't think your suggestion is terrible but the reasons I mentioned are why I feel it's best to make incremental changes to the game that get us away from the turtle meta like the one op suggested as to not complete upset the balance of a game that's already shaky.

Sincerity117
05-15-2017, 07:24 AM
It's not a bad idea at all, id like to see something similar in theory. But it hardly negates the turtle meta alone.
You'd get your opponent drained, then they'd back off and turtle even more till its back. Pointless cycle.

Now, if they implemented your stamina drain on block (and parry?), PLUS made it so drained enemies fall from any attack blocked or unblocked (which I've been saying since day one), you might have yourself a nice little turtle negation.

Throw in 'no dodges whilst out of stamina' and a 'no parries whilst drained' and boom, you're successfully negated the turtle meta I think.

Just disregard anything this guy says. He's a complete moron that lives in his own fantasy world dreaming about vikings humping other men.

DrinkinMyStella
05-15-2017, 10:17 AM
for honor = the most toxic community i have ever seen. unfortunately you suggest something that other disagree with and you get abuse instead of a constructive opinion. i think it not a bad idea, something has to be done about the turtles.

DrExtrem
05-15-2017, 10:49 AM
More important.

Why should I block a heavy attack? Even if it is a failed faint or the safe option, most heavy strikes take so long, that you can still react to a real incoming strike, that got not canceled.

There have to be better ways to open turtles ... on PC.

Mudflaaaps
05-15-2017, 04:14 PM
That's a fair point, problem is that whatever they do to help negate the turtle meta, the game will change dramatically and will need a lot of new reworks. Because of the problems you've highlighted, if my ideas were all implemented there would obviously have to be some changes to stamina draining characters who would understandably be insane as you've pointed out.

This is the most complicated fighting game ever made, just throwing some brainstorming ideas out. I'm no expert haha.