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Salfordian
06-24-2004, 08:12 AM
Found an interesting page at militaryairshows.co.uk which I hadn't come across before. Some interesting stories for all those into X-files kinda stuff at this page http://www.militaryairshows.co.uk/unex1.htm.

As Nick Ross would say "Sleep well, don't have nightmares" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Salfordian
06-24-2004, 08:12 AM
Found an interesting page at militaryairshows.co.uk which I hadn't come across before. Some interesting stories for all those into X-files kinda stuff at this page http://www.militaryairshows.co.uk/unex1.htm.

As Nick Ross would say "Sleep well, don't have nightmares" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Maple_Tiger
06-24-2004, 08:46 AM
How do we know, you are who you say you are?

Capt. 361stMapleTiger.
http://img52.photobucket.com/albums/v158/Maple_Tiger/FBAA2.gif
Proud member of the FBAA and Nutty Philosohpy Club.

LStarosta
06-24-2004, 09:49 AM
Waiter, may I have a grain of salt, please?

http://home.comcast.net/~l.starosta/sig2.jpg
Spacer nad Berlinem!

Chuck_Older
06-24-2004, 10:13 AM
I'll take one per story http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


I love that kind of stuff, it would be an amazing thing, but as always, it's complete bollocks, as they say, at least until I experience it myself

*****************************
The hillsides ring with, "Free the People",
Or can I hear the echoes from the days of '39?
~ Clash

Maple_Tiger
06-24-2004, 10:19 AM
I new it, i just new.

You are not from around here are ya? You and your friends want to take every single grain of salt from are planet. We know your plan.

Capt. 361stMapleTiger.
http://img52.photobucket.com/albums/v158/Maple_Tiger/FBAA2.gif
Proud member of the FBAA and Nutty Philosohpy Club.

NorrisMcWhirter
06-24-2004, 10:29 AM
Hi,

I've seen that UFO when up in a 190A9.

I think my compass was spinning but I couldn't see it because I forgot to map a key to see the cockpit panel when I saw a grey streak pass me by at about 25,000 MPH before climbing at an incredible rate. By the time I'd fiddled with my joystick hat switch, the bogey had disappeared into a cloud although I do think I spotted a red star on it.

When I got back to base, my CO thought I'd gone La-La...or was it La7-La7?

Cheers,
Norris

================================================== ==========

: Chris Morris - Blue Jam :
http://cabinessence.cream.org/

: More irreverence :
http://www.tvgohome.com/

: You've seen them... :
www.chavscum.co.uk (http://www.chavscum.co.uk)

gates123
06-24-2004, 10:36 AM
Of course everyone wants to take it for a grain of salt for one reason or another but what they fail to realise it that after its all said and done, if only ONE (1) of these accounts/stories are true then guess what.....


http://www.nuforc.org/webreports/ndxe200406.html

http://www.flightjournal.com/images/index_photos/gunslinging.jpg
Did anyone see that or was it just me?

Chuck_Older
06-24-2004, 10:42 AM
I only one of these stories is true, that does not put any more creedence into any other story.

Just because one might be so, it doesn't make the rest of them fact http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

*****************************
The hillsides ring with, "Free the People",
Or can I hear the echoes from the days of '39?
~ Clash

NorrisMcWhirter
06-24-2004, 10:48 AM
Hi,

And if all (ALL) of these accounts are cobblers, then the X files fans were wrong...

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Cheers,
Norris

PS: I should say that my old cheese and his friend says they saw a UFO once when they were out shooting on a local farm at about midnight in September, 1982. They described the object as a large red disk that had decreasing concentric circles on it; it appeared above them in the trees before rising vertically into broken cloud. More unbelievably, they said that they hadn't been drinking!

================================================== ==========

: Chris Morris - Blue Jam :
http://cabinessence.cream.org/

: More irreverence :
http://www.tvgohome.com/

: You've seen them... :
www.chavscum.co.uk (http://www.chavscum.co.uk)

gates123
06-24-2004, 10:52 AM
No but if one is fact then the subject must be taken seriously by the scientific communities, who can't grasp their hands around it because its something that can't be repeated and demonstrated in a contained environment and the powers that be have purposely ridiculed the subject over the decades to keep the mainstream away.

http://www.disclosureproject.org/

http://www.flightjournal.com/images/index_photos/gunslinging.jpg
Did anyone see that or was it just me?

[This message was edited by gates123 on Thu June 24 2004 at 10:13 AM.]

LilHorse
06-24-2004, 11:36 AM
One has to wonder about the validity of the "transcripts" that are used as evidence. Where do people get such transcripts or audio tape to make transcripts if this stuff is supposed to be "hush-hush". Everything else about this stuff is supposedly so well hidden, yet these transcripts are on the internet.

That said, if something like the Lightning transcript is for real (it sorta did give me the heebie-jeebies) then....dunno.

MEGILE
06-24-2004, 11:46 AM
To quote a great man..

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Little green men don't fly 50 million light years across a vacuum in an aerodynamic dinner plate to hide behind trees and chop up cows every now and again <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

@LilHorse I guess you didnt notice the BBC REAL transcript of what happened? read it.. its much more plausible, and ofcourse down to earth, not to mention ts the truth. Ufo guys just like to spin and change stories to look "out of this world" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://www.2and2.net/Uploads/Images/p51light.bmp

Countdown to 1337 post count = P minus 148

gates123
06-24-2004, 12:54 PM
Well I admit I'm a little bias toward the subject since I've had my own sighting 8 years ago. I guess until you see a strange blue and yellow light make incredibly fast right angle turns its easy for someone just to hit the BS button and make it go away. S!

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s1106371.htm

http://www.flightjournal.com/images/index_photos/gunslinging.jpg
Did anyone see that or was it just me?

MEGILE
06-24-2004, 01:01 PM
Don't get me wrong, I believe in UFOs.. every time I look into the sky and I see something i don't recognize... its an unidentified flying object.. I very much doubt however that they are from a distant planet http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://www.2and2.net/Uploads/Images/p51light.bmp

Countdown to 1337 post count = P minus 174

_VR_ScorpionWorm
06-24-2004, 01:53 PM
Looks like the 7up Spot got a job dancing on their website....now he fits in just right. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

"Soldiers, Sailors, and Airmen of the Allied Expeditionary force:
You are about to embark upon a Great Crusade toward which we have strived these many months. The eyes of the world are upon you. Good Luck! And let us all beseech the blessing of Almighty God upon this great and noble undertaking" - Gen. Dwight D. Eiseinhower-Supreme Allied Commander.

www.vultures-row.com (http://www.vultures-row.com)

BfHeFwMe
06-24-2004, 02:06 PM
Stories? What stories?

But boy are the galleries a treasure, the spitfire ones are unbeleivably good. Very rare 70's airshow stuff also, you won't find many great collections like this. Bookmarked. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

enraged_chimp
06-24-2004, 02:23 PM
i dont know about the others but its been proved glenn miller died when flying under lancs dropping their bombs in the channel after a failed mission

Bo_Nidle
06-24-2004, 05:35 PM
In the early 1980's I was an RAF policeman at RAF Waddington in Lincolnshire,UK.The base has a long and distinguished aviation history.It was a Vulcan base when I was there but during WW2 it was home for several Lancaster squadrons.

In the "conventional bomb dump" (in other words "non-nuke" at that time) was where the 1000lb bombs were stored.parts of this area date back to the war.

As can be imagined the base was a prime target for the Germans and got bombed many times.

In fact when they were building the Nimrod simulator they dug up at least one unexploded bomb dropped by the LW.

However one day in the conventional bomb dump an armourer returned to their rest room and asked who the new Chief Technician was he had just been speaking to as he found it unusual he was still wearing the old uniform with the eagle motif on the shoulders.(RAF uniform at the time did not have this motif).It turned out the Chief tech did not exist.However legend has it that during the war Chief tech was KIA in that bomb dump although the account of how he met his end are unknown.He was seen by many people since and they were deadly serious when they reported it in the knowledge that major p!sstaking would surely follow!!!

When we were on night shifts we were required to carry out foot patrol of this bomb dump and I can honestly say that in 3 years there I never went all the way in.Instead i used to stay by the gate clutching my Sterling SMG (Which was of little use against the supernatural I know but it was still comforting!!) and waiting for my relief!!! (I think the word you are looking for is: "Wuss!")

P.S. At that time I went by the nickname "Punchy" in case any other 814 duty trogs read this.



Bo_Nidle

"You've got to treat your kite like you treat your woman.Get inside her five times a day and take her to Heaven and back"
Lord Flashheart RFC 1917

"All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing" Edmund Burke

Baron_Kiptofen
06-24-2004, 06:21 PM
Trying to keep this vaguely on topic, UFO's are not real. Any of them. The reasons are many, varied and complex, but it all boils down to the laws of Physics, which absolutely deny the existance of UFO's as they are currently understood. Just to give one small example.

Imagine an aeroplane in Il2 now. Anyone at all to begin with. How do we make it match the typical UFO?
Well, it has to move extremely fast, for a start. How fast? Let's say 3,000 miles an hour at the moment. Not a problem, we have earth planes today which do that. But you'd need to stick modern engines and air frame onto our IL2 aeroplane to do it. You just can't shove a WW2 vintage craft to that sort of speeds, no matter what propulsion technology you'd have; it's airframe would collapse. Even slung under the SR1 it's wings would be ripped off, and it wouldn't really be doing that speed itself now, would it? You always need the correct design for the performance needed: And this is true of ANY craft operating in Earth's atmosphere, UFO's or not. This is an important point. It doesn't matter what the world the creatures came from is like, here on Earth the laws of physics for our part of the universe remain constant. There's no point using your imagination and saying "Well, an IL2 might go 3,000 mph"... not and remain an Il2 it can't. It has to match the performance related criteria for it's environment.

And here on earth there's one environmental feature no craft can get around. And that's the atmosphere. Ignoring all the other issues again, let's just focus on the absolute killer issue. No matter what you do, moving through air creates sound... unless you can develop a way of allowing every single molecule of air to pass unchanged through the body of your craft, no matter how aerodynamic your craft is, it will create some noise simply because it has to pass through the air, and thus changes the air's movement. Even the most aerodynamic ship will only direct all it's sound in a single direction. And, because you can't have an object with zero width or length, because the sound will be coming from different points off the body of your craft, at speeds above the Sound Barrier you will always get a sonic boom. If you theorize a shield of some sort which prevents sound waves leaving the craft, the air would simply be passing around the shield instead (sound being a wave form of, amongst other things, air molecules, which if they can't get out, won't be able to get in either: Or if by some amazing tech, they can, your shield will eventually bloat up like Mr Creosote as it gets full of trapped air) and thus making the same noise. Hence it's absolutely impossible for a UFO here on Earth to fly perfectly silently. Or anything else for that matter. Certainly not at 3,000 mph and only a few feet above your house or what not.

I could go on and on... That's not to deny the existance of intelligent life. Perhaps if we are really lucky, one day we might meet some. But every single element of UFO belief at the moment relies enormously on subjective interpretation of badly recorded, or not recorded at all information. Here's an article on the chief problem with that:

http://www.csicop.org/si/9511/eyewitness.html

Called "Eye Witness Testimony And The Paranormal", it recounts, amongst other things, a scientific experiment where a Seance was faked... and even after the experimenters showed some of the subjects how they'd faked their phenomena which occured during it, some of them still believed that they had seen genuine paranormal activity. Prior beliefs or susceptability to certain new ones radically affects what people think they saw... Hell, you can't even get people to agree on various flight models for real life and still flying 'planes here; we argue even over the same piece of software we've all got identical standard copies of! Now imagine the level of data of UFO's, combine the principle of Occams Razor... and isn't a far more sensible proposition to state that it's most likely ALL of UFO's are either explainable or delusional?

Sure, one day there may be contact with an alien life form, possibly via visitation to Earth... but where's the proof that they have actually done so yet?

NTESLA
06-24-2004, 07:01 PM
Who said "they" traveled great "distances"? Did someone asked "them"? For all we know "they" could be time travelers, maybe our offspring coming to pay a visit in the 21st century or so...

Why think in the same box? Think outside of it and ask the same question again.

http://fluxout.homestead.com/files/Thx-32x.jpg

"You can discover what your enemy fears most by observing the means he uses to frighten you"

Eric Hoffer (1902 - 1983)

_VR_ScorpionWorm
06-24-2004, 07:22 PM
Well its been said before countless times...if we are alone in the Universe, it does seem like an entire waste of space. Besides, the acronym is "UFO", unidentified flying object, all they have to do is indentify it, put a name on it and it will no longer be a UFO. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"Soldiers, Sailors, and Airmen of the Allied Expeditionary force:
You are about to embark upon a Great Crusade toward which we have strived these many months. The eyes of the world are upon you. Good Luck! And let us all beseech the blessing of Almighty God upon this great and noble undertaking" - Gen. Dwight D. Eiseinhower-Supreme Allied Commander.

www.vultures-row.com (http://www.vultures-row.com)

Maple_Tiger
06-24-2004, 09:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Baron_Kiptofen:
Trying to keep this vaguely on topic, UFO's are not real. Any of them. The reasons are many, varied and complex, but it all boils down to the laws of Physics, which absolutely deny the existance of UFO's as they are currently understood. Just to give one small example.



People call people morons and or burned them at the stake becaues they beleaved the world was round.

Imagine an aeroplane in Il2 now. Anyone at all to begin with. How do we make it match the typical UFO?
Well, it has to move extremely fast, for a start. How fast? Let's say 3,000 miles an hour at the moment. Not a problem, we have earth planes today which do that. But you'd need to stick modern engines and air frame onto our IL2 aeroplane to do it. You just can't shove a WW2 vintage craft to that sort of speeds, no matter what propulsion technology you'd have; it's airframe would collapse. Even slung under the SR1 it's wings would be ripped off, and it wouldn't really be doing that speed itself now, would it? You always need the correct design for the performance needed: And this is true of ANY craft operating in Earth's atmosphere, UFO's or not. This is an important point. It doesn't matter what the world the creatures came from is like, here on Earth the laws of physics for our part of the universe remain constant. There's no point using your imagination and saying "Well, an IL2 might go 3,000 mph"... not and remain an Il2 it can't. It has to match the performance related criteria for it's environment.

And here on earth there's one environmental feature no craft can get around. And that's the atmosphere. Ignoring all the other issues again, let's just focus on the absolute killer issue. No matter what you do, moving through air creates sound... unless you can develop a way of allowing every single molecule of air to pass unchanged through the body of your craft, no matter how aerodynamic your craft is, it will create some noise simply because it has to pass through the air, and thus changes the air's movement. Even the most aerodynamic ship will only direct all it's sound in a single direction. And, because you can't have an object with zero width or length, because the sound will be coming from different points off the body of your craft, at speeds above the Sound Barrier you will always get a sonic boom. If you theorize a shield of some sort which prevents sound waves leaving the craft, the air would simply be passing around the shield instead (sound being a wave form of, amongst other things, air molecules, which if they can't get out, won't be able to get in either: Or if by some amazing tech, they can, your shield will eventually bloat up like Mr Creosote as it gets full of trapped air) and thus making the same noise. Hence it's absolutely impossible for a UFO here on Earth to fly perfectly silently. Or anything else for that matter. Certainly not at 3,000 mph and only a few feet above your house or what not.

I could go on and on... That's not to deny the existance of intelligent life. Perhaps if we are really lucky, one day we might meet some. But every single element of UFO belief at the moment relies enormously on subjective interpretation of badly recorded, or not recorded at all information. Here's an article on the chief problem with that:

http://www.csicop.org/si/9511/eyewitness.html

Called "Eye Witness Testimony And The Paranormal", it recounts, amongst other things, a scientific experiment where a Seance was faked... and even after the experimenters showed some of the subjects how they'd faked their phenomena which occured during it, some of them still believed that they had seen genuine paranormal activity. Prior beliefs or susceptability to certain new ones radically affects what people think they saw... Hell, you can't even get people to agree on various flight models for real life and still flying 'planes here; we argue even over the same piece of software we've all got identical standard copies of! Now imagine the level of data of UFO's, combine the principle of Occams Razor... and isn't a far more sensible proposition to state that it's most likely ALL of UFO's are either explainable or delusional?

Sure, one day there may be contact with an alien life form, possibly via visitation to Earth... but where's the proof that they have actually done so yet?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



If UFO's are not real, then what do you call unidentified flying objects?

If you don't understand something, it dosen't mean it doesn't exist.

Why are there picturs of UFO's painted on walls by cave men? Or, pictures of what looks like asternots, painted by people 6 thousand plus years ago?

How did people ten thousand years ago know there were 7 planets orbiting our solor system?

Capt. 361stMapleTiger.
http://img52.photobucket.com/albums/v158/Maple_Tiger/FBAA2.gif
Proud member of the FBAA and Nutty Philosohpy Club.

WWMaxGunz
06-24-2004, 09:40 PM
Well I just asked Elvis and he said that UFO's do exist and come from
other, far away galaxies to bring peanut butter, banana and bacon
sandwiches deliveries called in on his ET phone. JFK backs that up too.

What more proof could you need? And every word is internet true (TM).


Neal

Stanger_361st
06-24-2004, 09:58 PM
Quote:"Well I just asked Elvis and he said that UFO's do exist and come from
other, far away galaxies to bring peanut butter, banana and bacon
sandwiches deliveries called in on his ET phone. JFK backs that up too.

What more proof could you need? And every word is internet true (TM).


Neal"

I thought Elvis liked pizza's and Oreo cookies.

woofiedog
06-24-2004, 10:24 PM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gifOh oooowww... the Banshee's are out to Tonight! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif

Salfordian
06-25-2004, 02:25 AM
Don't believe in the little green men and flying saucers myself but they do make interesting reads. The things that do give me the creeps are the ghosty ones like the Lincoln bomber at Cosford and Bo_nidles story. I remember seeing on local BBC TV a few years back a program about the Lancashire moors where quite a few planes went down during the war in bad weather. 2 americans wanted to be taken upto the hills as relatives were aircrew in the war. The guide took them up to one of the crash sites and told them a bit about the area, when he looked at their faces they had gone pale, apparently they had both seen some airmen standing near the wreckage. I might not have got it totally right, but that is the basics of what the report said.

Then there is always the story of the lost Roman legion as well...

Baron_Kiptofen
06-25-2004, 07:08 AM
"People call people morons and or burned them at the stake becaues they beleaved the world was round."

I think you've misphrased that sentance somewhat. I believe you meant to say "Morons burnt people at the stake because they insisted the world wasn't round. Or because God said it wasn't."

You see, ancient astronomy from at least the time of the 7th Century BC had suspected the world was round, when Thales noticed that Ursula Major (The Big Dipper) didn't dip below the horizon in Greece, but did in Eygpt. By 230 BC Eratosthenes had managed to measure the Earth's circumference to within 7% of the true figure... However for ideological, sociological and religious reasons,l lots of other people said that the world was flat all the same, and burnt those who tried to point out that it wasn't for generations to come. The knowledge has been there all along, it's just no one wanted to believe it.
The difference with alien visitations is that there is no knowledge or science at all which states that they have been here yet, but people wish to believe it all the same. It is the acceptance of no evidence rather than the denial of some evidence. As I said, never underestimate the power of belief to shape subjective understanding of the objective universe.

"If UFO's are not real, then what do you call unidentified flying objects?"

I don't call them alien craft, and they certainly aren't that. If I am driving down a road and I see something moving in the bushes, could it be a leprechaun? Nope. It's likely to be a bird, or a cat or something of that nature. But it will, unless I get out and look, forever be Unidentified. Saying it's Unidentified doesn't mean it's a leprechaun, it just means "I can't say for certain". Were I a WWII pilot (desperate theme keeping open of) I could say that the plane I've just shot down was a Spitfire MkXIV GTI, but that doesn't mean it was, it just means that I didn't know what it really was. And I wanted to show off a bit too. Bias, see?

"If you don't understand something, it dosen't mean it doesn't exist."

Not an insult, but this is the famous Argument From Ignorance, a definition of which is here:

http://skepdic.com/ignorance.html

If something exists only in ways which cannot be observed by mankind then no conclusion at all can be drawn about it. Saying it "might be" does not say something "is". You can concieve of the idea of a circle being square, but no true circle ever can be... it's an element of imagination, of hope and not of reality. I can concieve of whupping everyone's *** on Hyperlobby with my mighty ("the cat went through the flap" - Ed) planes. It's possible. It doesn't happen though.


"Why are there picturs of UFO's painted on walls by cave men? Or, pictures of what looks like asternots, painted by people 6 thousand plus years ago?"

Simple answer is; Because there isn't. I'd need to see what particular claims you are refering to to be able to state what they actually are, and in the realm of cavemen it's perhaps not possible even then (because no one knows for sure): but ever since Von Danniken released "Chariots Of The Gods", this claim keeps turning up again and again, and the usual answer is "The author doesn't know enough about that culture to realise what it actually is." For instance, Von Danniken claimed an Aztec picture showed an ancient astronaut on a rocket, when it was in fact tomb art showing a reclining figure picking fruit from the tree of immortality. The "Abydos Helicopter" is actually two hieroglyphs, one superimposed over the other (a common practice in Eygpt, as Pharoahs would write their name over their ancestors achievements). And so on...

Our ancestors may have been primitive, but they were not stupid: if they had art or language, they could have said or drawn what they saw. "One day creatures from another world landed in a craft". Instead, all we have are pictures which might, if you wish to believe they are, look a bit like alien craft and astronaughts, yet not one unambigious source of an actual alien visitation has been left to us.

Look at it like this: Do we say that when a Preacher in a Christian church reads from the Bible and says Jesus comes down from heaven and ascends back again, that what they are really doing is recounting a badly remembered visitation from Aliens 2,000 years ago? Because that's the level of argument being used for "Ancient Astronaughts": The context of the original picture is always either a God or something else of the sky from within that culture's understanding. Yet UFO believers claim "Well, the art shows Horus or whatever coming from the sky and returning, but it was obviously a UFO that they stupidly mistook for a God." But it's a ridiculous argument: What they thought they saw in the sky was their Gods, just like today people believe that what they are talking about is Jesus, not some alien with an all powerful Loaveandfishes Gun. People have always had a sense of faith, and the artwork of the ancients is part of that tradition, and can only be understood within that context. Human knowledge may have expanded, but humans basic needs remain more or less the same, and one of those needs is for a sense of faith in something. In 2000 years time it will be nonsense to argue that people praying to Jesus were actually really hoping for the return of an an Alien, because some of the Christian artwork can be interpreted to show an Alien Jesus stepping out of a tractor beam coming from a UFO up in the sky, yet that's what we are arguing about the religious images of thousands of years past.

And neither now nor 2000 years hence will either tradition actually tell us if there really WAS anything in the sky: they are both tales of what people believed came from the heavens. They are not evidence that anything actually did. Perhaps then and now people thought they really were seeing Aliens. It's odd that they didn't claim that they did, that they insist that they saw Jesus or Horus: but even if they had written down somewhere that they saw Aliens, again you have to ask "So where's the hard proof of that?". I can start a culture up of worshipping me as a God, and if I can get people to believe it, and draw pictures of me ascending to heaven, does that make me a God? No. But it certainly doesn't make me an alien either!

"How did people ten thousand years ago know there were 7 planets orbiting our solor system?"

The simple answer is that the first 7 planets (Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn) are ALL visible to the naked eye. Go ahead and look it up... it's only a mystery if you didn't know that http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

NTESLA
06-25-2004, 07:25 AM
You keep repeating yourself. "Think OUTSIDE the box".

http://fluxout.homestead.com/files/Thx-32x.jpg

"You can discover what your enemy fears most by observing the means he uses to frighten you"

Eric Hoffer (1902 - 1983)

NorrisMcWhirter
06-25-2004, 07:30 AM
Hi,

2-1 odds on this turning into a religious debate. Place your bets now!

Cheers,
Norris

================================================== ==========

: Chris Morris - Blue Jam :
http://cabinessence.cream.org/

: More irreverence :
http://www.tvgohome.com/

: You've seen them... :
www.chavscum.co.uk (http://www.chavscum.co.uk)

boxmike
06-25-2004, 07:43 AM
Nice one for a change http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
One thing close to me has always been gothic horror stories. Those from 1790-1850. They certainly have their own atmosphere and difficult language for non-english native. But I enjoy them nevertheless.
To be honest, I do not know what to think about ghost stories about WWII personnel. On the other side, it feels like hurting their memory; on the other hand, is there a difference between a ghost story of fourteenth century knight and ghost story of twentieth century pilot?
And last, is there Great Britain without haunted mansions,castles,locations? That feature must be preserved, methinx.

UFOs? I see them almost daily. They are simply unidentified.
Maybe someone visited Earth some time. In that case, the visit is been buried under all cr*p nowadays.
Traffic up there is quite enormous these days so let's give a thought to controllers in their towers.

MEGILE
06-25-2004, 08:20 AM
Ockham's Razor.... swamp gass people, be sure http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://www.2and2.net/Uploads/Images/p51dark.bmp

Countdown to 1337 post count = P minus 143

LilHorse
06-25-2004, 10:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Baron_Kiptofen:
Trying to keep this vaguely on topic, UFO's are not real. Any of them. The reasons are many, varied and complex, but it all boils down to the laws of Physics, which absolutely deny the existance of UFO's as they are currently understood.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not that I'm here to promote the idea of aliens having come here but the above statement assumes that our knowledge of physics is THE knowledge of physics. Now, if you first simply eliminate the possibility of the existance of any other intelligent lifeform that could come up with a similar approach to looking at the universe then, by default, ours is the only true knowlege of the mechanics of reality (until we find out we were wrong, then the new knowledge becomes THE knowledge ). http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Indeed, it does come down to belief. But it might be a belief in the possibilty of creatures which are intelligence-wise to us what we are to apes (or maybe even ants) in terms of our own measure of intellect. It allows for the possibilty that these creatures can manipulate energy or even the very fabric of reality in ways that we are incapable of comprehending.

Simjock
06-25-2004, 11:35 AM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif
http://www.navicache.com/pics/memberpics/pic2393-1.jpg
http://cbg.nohomers.net/images/alien.gif


"Take Off is Optional, Landing is Manditory."

Chuck_Older
06-25-2004, 12:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stanger_361st:
Quote:"Well I just asked Elvis and he said that UFO's do exist and come from
other, far away galaxies to bring peanut butter, banana and bacon
sandwiches deliveries called in on his ET phone. JFK backs that up too.

What more proof could you need? And every word is internet true (TM).


Neal"

I thought Elvis liked pizza's and Oreo cookies.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope, the Big E like fried peanut butter and bannana sandwiches. Which are actually quite yummy.


As far as Aliens go, it is incredibly silly to assume that we are the only intelligent life in the Universe. The Universe is pretty...well...universal...by which I mean limitless in theory, so what's easier to imagine? One solitary intelligent life form on one little planet, or that more than one exists? Easy question, really- if one exists there might be two, or three, or a billion.

*****************************
The hillsides ring with, "Free the People",
Or can I hear the echoes from the days of '39?
~ Clash

diomedes33
06-25-2004, 12:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LilHorse:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Baron_Kiptofen:
Trying to keep this vaguely on topic, UFO's are not real. Any of them. The reasons are many, varied and complex, but it all boils down to the laws of Physics, which absolutely deny the existance of UFO's as they are currently understood.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not that I'm here to promote the idea of aliens having come here but the above statement assumes that our knowledge of physics is THE knowledge of physics. Now, if you first simply eliminate the possibility of the existance of any other intelligent lifeform that could come up with a similar approach to looking at the universe then, by default, ours is the only true knowlege of the mechanics of reality (until we find out we were wrong, then the new knowledge becomes THE knowledge ). http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Indeed, it does come down to belief. But it might be a belief in the possibilty of creatures which are intelligence-wise to us what we are to apes (or maybe even ants) in terms of our own measure of intellect. It allows for the possibilty that these creatures can manipulate energy or even the very fabric of reality in ways that we are incapable of comprehending.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You beat me to it LilHorse. I just have to chime in a little.

At one time we were postive that the Earth was flat, then we were sure that the atom looked like pudding with raisens in it. We've made a lot of progress with the development of quantum theory, but there are still phenomina that can not be explained by our theories. A loop hole so to speak.

Every theory that we have come up with has been revised, changed or proven to be wrong. Why should the Laws and Theories that we hold true today be different.

Also how many things do we have today that were considered science fiction 20 years ago? Where would a civilization be that is a million years ahead of us?

I'm not saying that every UFO is from another planet, but the human race has only been around for a blink of an eye. It is quite possible that we are not the big-dog. Hell we could be a case study for some other race on our naive understanding on physics, chemestry, etc ...

http://www.public.asu.edu/~guthriec/ubi_sig.jpg

Simjock
06-25-2004, 01:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stanger_361st:
Quote:"Well I just asked Elvis and he said that UFO's do exist and come from
other, far away galaxies to bring peanut butter, banana and bacon
sandwiches deliveries called in on his ET phone. JFK backs that up too.

What more proof could you need? And every word is internet true (TM).


Neal"

I thought Elvis liked pizza's and Oreo cookies.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope, the Big E like fried peanut butter and bannana sandwiches. Which are actually quite yummy.


As far as Aliens go, it is incredibly silly to assume that we are the only intelligent life in the Universe. The Universe is pretty...well...universal...by which I mean limitless in theory, so what's easier to imagine? One solitary intelligent life form on one little planet, or that more than one exists? Easy question, really- if one exists there might be two, or three, or a billion.

*****************************
The hillsides ring with, "Free the People",
Or can I hear the echoes from the days of '39?
~ Clash<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

By no means do I take this seriously, but it's kinda spooky to think that people who believe in aliens can drive cars, bear children, and vote!

Take a close look at your own logic:
"The Universe is pretty...well...universal..."
Lets say just for fun an alien ship landed on the White House lawn, and a little green man poped out to say, "Hello".

The first thing that would happen would be the secret service, and all the marines would blast our little green man into cat food.

Then the entire east coast would be quarantined and run over with a fine toothed comb by every hazmat team in the world.

Then the public unrest would set in as people realize that since aliens truly exist, God, and creationizm is bunk, and there goes 2000 years of Judeo Christian law right out the window.

Cicvlization as we know it colpases back to the stone age while we try to re-establish our core belief system through another 2000 years of war.

In the mean time the relitives of the little green man debate weither or not we are an intelligant species, or just an advanced biological rash on the planet Earth in need of eradication.

Thats the best case senario for first contact, but cheer up because the odds are, by the law of probability and improbability, that any other form of intelligant life in the universe is iether so far away in time and space that the odds of crossing paths is near nil, or that we are so differant in mind and body that if we do cross paths we wont even know it.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/cry.gif

LilHorse
06-25-2004, 01:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Simjock:
Then the public unrest would set in as people realize that since aliens truly exist, God, and creationizm is bunk, and there goes 2000 years of Judeo Christian law right out the window.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think that would necessarily follow. I'm sure God made little green (or gray) men too. And even if he didn't, I'm sure he loves them anyway.
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Simjock:
Cicvlization as we know it colpases back to the stone age while we try to re-establish our core belief system through another 2000 years of war.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nah! I bet after a few days of "WOW! GEE WHIZ!" It'd all blow over and people start talking about what happened on American Idol at work again.

Simjock
06-25-2004, 02:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LilHorse:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Simjock:
Then the public unrest would set in as people realize that since aliens truly exist, God, and creationizm is bunk, and there goes 2000 years of Judeo Christian law right out the window.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think that would necessarily follow. I'm sure God made little green (or gray) men too. And even if he didn't, I'm sure he loves them anyway.
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Simjock:
Cicvlization as we know it colpases back to the stone age while we try to re-establish our core belief system through another 2000 years of war.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nah! I bet after a few days of "WOW! GEE WHIZ!" It'd all blow over and people start talking about what happened on American Idol at work again.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your probably right...but then again I can't imagine what kind of hay day the trial lawers would have with this.

http://www.pcaviation.net/simjocksig.jpeg (http://www.pcaviation.net/)
"Take Off is Optional, Landing is Manditory."

DrDave242
06-25-2004, 02:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Baron_Kiptofen:
The simple answer is that the first 7 planets (Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn) are ALL visible to the naked eye.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Er...um...that's only six. (Count 'em!) Perhaps aliens probed Uranus and then erased your memory of it.

Sorry, couldn't help myself. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

---
There are 10 kinds of people in the world: those who can count in binary, and those who can't.

HL callsign: FruitPieJones
Today is a good day for pie.

Agamemnon22
06-25-2004, 03:10 PM
I don't buy that "First contact tears apart our society" idea. Why would it? Will electricity stop flowing because we've met other beings? Will cows stop producing milk? Will people go berserk and howl at the moon?

There's no reason. Suppose tomorrow the front page of the paper read "GREEN MEN VISIT UN HEADQUARTERS, STAY FOR LUNCHEON". So what? Are you going to stop going to work? Are you going to stop buying groceries or going out for the odd brew? I just don't see it. You're going to call your friends like "dude, you read the paper?" and you'll talk it over and go on with your life. Why? Because there's absolutely nothing you can do about it. It's happened. Whatever you thought before doesn't matter, it's a reality now. Does it affect you personally? I mean provided the aliens don't want to wipe us off the face of the planet, you'll probably not even see one.

The only problem that we may see is organized religion. "Little green men? There's no such thing in the Bible!" I don't have any statistics handy, but I seriously doubt even a third of the world is so incurably religous that they can't get over first contact. There's a difference between religion and ethics. We may lose our religion in a day, ethics go a little deeper than that.

We survived a couple world wars, I think we can get over making a couple new acquaintances.

"By no means do I take this seriously, but it's kinda spooky to think that people who believe in aliens can drive cars, bear children, and vote!"

Damn, I better stop driving then. Might hurt myself. Or worse, screw up my vote next week! Good thing you're here to point out these things! Why is it so unbelievable? I'm not saying they're here and you're one of them, but at least entertain the possibility...

Ob.Emann
06-25-2004, 03:39 PM
*whistles innocently*

www.ufoevidence.org (http://www.ufoevidence.org)

Very enlightening website, make sure to check out the photo section.

Der Oberst von schlechten Piloten

Chuck_Older
06-25-2004, 04:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Simjock:


Nope, the Big E like fried peanut butter and bannana sandwiches. Which are actually quite yummy.


As far as Aliens go, it is incredibly silly to assume that we are the only intelligent life in the Universe. The Universe is pretty...well...universal...by which I mean limitless in theory, so what's easier to imagine? One solitary intelligent life form on one little planet, or that more than one exists? Easy question, really- if one exists there might be two, or three, or a billion.

*****************************
The hillsides ring with, "Free the People",
Or can I hear the echoes from the days of '39?
~ Clash<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

By no means do I take this seriously, but it's kinda spooky to think that people who believe in aliens can drive cars, bear children, and vote!

.....

the odds are, by the law of probability and improbability, that any other form of intelligant life in the universe is iether so far away in time and space that the odds of crossing paths is near nil, or that we are so differant in mind and body that if we do cross paths we wont even know it.

[/QUOTE]

So on one hand you think that if I believe that alien life exists and if my reasoning is that if it has happened before (the human race) then that sets a precedent where in the vastness of the Universe, the conditions probably exist for it to happen again, and probably in fact has, I'm a nut, but at the same time you cite situations in which even if they do exist, we wouldn't know...you use the law of probablity to prove that something can happen but we wouldn't know, but you also say it isn't possible...make up your mind http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


You are acting as if I say they walk among us and have done this that and the other thing...no, I do not say that. I think that maybe you are pre-supposing my responses. I beleive "they" have never been here. I read Erich von Danniken and laugh. It is a fun story he tells, but I do not beleive it. I would like to, but it doesn't work out for me. I just can't buy it even though I want to. It would be cool to think that it were true, but his stories are very neat, as in they fit too well within his own guidelines. But some of the things he brings up are mysteries and interesting. I don't however, think that the coincidence of, for example, a particular form of navigation existing in the sketchy maps of ancient Greece being 'proven' out by the Greek Air Force in training exercises, while completely oblivious to the fact that they are travelling the "same" airlanes that were described in ancient text, is true. But SOME weird thing is going on. I just don't think the answer is 'aliens'. I think it's more likely that geography tended to dictate habitiation then as it does now, and habitable and arable land back then became the urban centers of today. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif No need for the Fantastical.

But does intelligent life exist somewhere besides here? Any answer other than "possibly" is an incredibly narrowminded and arrogant reply. How can Humans be the one and only shot at intelligent life in the limitless Universe?

I hate the X-files and consipracy films, they are all a bunch of nonsense. But if you can concede that we do not know all about the universe, and that intelligent life has somehow happened here on Earth, how can you possibly and rationally explain why it can never ever happen anywhere else in the universe? That is a peculiar standpoint that says, "it can only happen once, and one time only ever, and at one place, at one particular instance in time and then never gain, period".

We don't even really know for certain how old the Human race is. We have the accepted version, and then we have evidence just as concrete that says that it's even older. I don't beleive in the Chariots of the Gods and all that but it's a fun story. I do however, think that Man figured out a way to do some things in very mundane ways that we in the last 2000 years never really deveoped, and it happened so long ago that we forgot about it. Godlike beings don't have to come from the Sky to impress primitive people, they could just be assumed to be Gods of those primitive people because they couldn't explain it any other way...then a modern scientist uses his modern rationale to explain the irrational primitive. So a guy from 2000 years ago sees a dale pump making water move over land without digging a ditch...and it's a miracle. Then the "Gods moved the water". Then a crackpot like von Danniken claims that Ancient Astronauts visited the Earth and made a fantastical flying machine like the Argo, with a Speaking Beam, and the Machine moved the water...when all along it was clever guy watering his fields with a new invention, shouting through a Flinstones-type megaphone at some dummy to get off his lawn http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

*****************************
The hillsides ring with, "Free the People",
Or can I hear the echoes from the days of '39?
~ Clash

Chuck_Older
06-25-2004, 05:09 PM
I had missed the Creationism bit


I have talked to Religious people about this, and why they beleive it. Now I beleive there is a God, but by Religious I mean devout.

I asked what they thought about Creationism. They said it's true.

I say what is true.

They say that God created everything

I say, Everything?

Yes, they say.

I ask what they think of Darwinism

They say it's rubbish. I ask ask if God created Darwin, and if He gave Darwin Independant thought

Yes, they say, of course

Then I ask why couldn't have God set in motion a series of events in which he created All originally, but also allowed Evolution to occur, so species could evolve or die out based on their abilty to adapt

It can't happen, they say

Why, I ask. (Get this, i have gotten a version of this repsonse twice)

"Because there are too many Species"
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

All powerful, All knowing, and All creating GOD couldn't do that?!?!

So, I say, there is something God cannot do?

"No", they say.

WTF

If you mention creationism, watch out. If you know something about Religion as I do (I have the scars to prove I attended Catholic School), do not ever ever ever put a limit on what the Almighty can do. Even if it is contradictory. All powerful means "Can do anything even if is impossible for rational thought"

So. My point:

Creationism, by default, should include the possibilty that God created Evolution, and Darwin was just a very keen observer. The debate between Darwinism and Creationism is a fabricated Nothing argument. One does not and cannot disprove the other!

My Religion teachers didn't like me much http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I got very reluctant A's from them

*****************************
The hillsides ring with, "Free the People",
Or can I hear the echoes from the days of '39?
~ Clash

JimRockford
06-25-2004, 05:24 PM
IS this anything like ghost stories?

I'm willing to spend a night in any 'haunted' house if someone is willing to put up money betting that I won't. 'Nuff said.

Simjock
06-25-2004, 07:53 PM
I never said any such thing!!!!!!

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

I said it's to improbable!!!

Simjock
06-25-2004, 08:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Agamemnon22:
I don't buy that "First contact tears apart our society" idea. Why would it? Will electricity stop flowing because we've met other beings? Will cows stop producing milk? Will people go berserk and howl at the moon?

There's no reason. Suppose tomorrow the front page of the paper read "GREEN MEN VISIT UN HEADQUARTERS, STAY FOR LUNCHEON". So what? Are you going to stop going to work? Are you going to stop buying groceries or going out for the odd brew? I just don't see it. You're going to call your friends like "dude, you read the paper?" and you'll talk it over and go on with your life. Why? Because there's absolutely nothing you can do about it. It's happened. Whatever you thought before doesn't matter, it's a reality now. Does it affect you personally? I mean provided the aliens don't want to wipe us off the face of the planet, you'll probably not even see one.

The only problem that we may see is organized religion. "Little green men? There's no such thing in the Bible!" I don't have any statistics handy, but I seriously doubt even a third of the world is so incurably religous that they can't get over first contact. There's a difference between religion and ethics. We may lose our religion in a day, ethics go a little deeper than that.

We survived a couple world wars, I think we can get over making a couple new acquaintances.

"By no means do I take this seriously, but it's kinda spooky to think that people who believe in aliens can drive cars, bear children, and vote!"

Damn, I better stop driving then. Might hurt myself. Or worse, screw up my vote next week! Good thing you're here to point out these things! Why is it so unbelievable? I'm not saying they're here and you're one of them, but at least entertain the possibility...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



yes.


"Take Off is Optional, Landing is Manditory."

Chuck_Older
06-25-2004, 08:03 PM
To which are you indignantly replying, SimJock


I can't very well explain if I don't know

*****************************
The hillsides ring with, "Free the People",
Or can I hear the echoes from the days of '39?
~ Clash

Franzen
06-26-2004, 04:23 AM
God created everything and Oleg made it flyable. No more blind faith, we have the "Wonderwoman View". http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Now, all good sinners, oooops, I mean simmers, please pray for more flyable aircraft. If you pray hard enough Oleg will answer your prayers,.........in two weeks! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

Fritz Franzen

DuxCorvan
06-26-2004, 05:48 AM
About UFOs:

In the 80s I was a teenager. I once flew in a DC-9 from Bilbao to Seville, to spend my summer holydays in Cadiz. And I saw them: two 'foo-fighters', two big light orbs flying in formation with the plane, about thirty meters off our starboard. They were yellowish and almost perfectly round. After five minutes or so, they dived suddenly and left at incredible speed. Everybody saw it.
Intelligent beings? I don't think so, they were more likely some kind of natural phenomena, but I must admit they were behaving in a 'intelligent' way, manoeuvering with the plane as wingmen would do.

About evolution and creationism:

Evolution is not incompatible with Christian faith. Creationism is just as plain stupid and obsolescent as geocentric theories about Sun orbiting around Earth. We are guilty, because we go on and on calling evolution a theory, when it is not. Evolution is now a proven fact, just as evident as gravity. It is not a theory any more, it is a theorema. It's not posible to argue and start a debate about this, because it's like arguing about the color of grass.

Even St. Thomas admitted science as the main instrument to know the reachable truth, leaving faith to be the main instrument to understand things that are beyond human explanation.

But the immediate origin of man can be fully explained without any supernatural intervention. A completely different thing is that of the origin of universe, life, and the laws that rule them.

But never try to prove Darwin was wrong. He wasn't, and that's all. You can see it in Olduvai, in Java, in Atapuerca, in the Neander valley. You can see how birds are scaled-down dinosaurs. You can watch salamanders and tritons conquering solid ground.

It's an ancient, very ancient world. You can take the petrified rests of trilobites from rocks formed hundreds of millions of years before Noah left his mother's womb.

That's evident, not book-revealed, truth.

How can someone be so stubborn not to admit what his eyes do prove to him? Even Catholic church -the most conservative in the Christian world- have admitted it, and released a new 'symbolism' interpretation for Genesis book, adopting a -rather tendencious- theory about 'providential' evolution, this is, evolution as a divine plan to create man thru indirect means.

All about God intervention in the tangible world just can be interpreted thru faith, but real facts that have become so evident, don't need explanation, they are available to anyone.

Dux corvan said. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

- Dux Corvan -
http://www.uploadit.org/DuxCorvan/Altamira2.jpg
Ten thousand years of Cantabrian skinning.

Simjock
06-26-2004, 06:17 AM
Ok, I saw an Alien last night at the bottom of a bottle of vodka. I was to wasted to get any pictures. but I can tell you he had two heads and looked just like my wife in a bad mood, only very blurry.

ploughman
06-26-2004, 08:35 AM
Here's a ghost story.

Just north of York is an out of town shopping and leisure centre called Clifton Moor. During the World War II Clifton Moor was an operation air-field, home to several heavy bomber squadrons.

There's a multiplex cinema there now, and about ten years ago my brother worked there, shortly after it opened. One morning the cleaners were cleaning one of the theatres when they saw a group of men in flying suits stood talking together. The cleaners were, he reported, shaken to their bones. Further sightings were reported by other staff members, including the drone of aero-engines, it was always the same theatre. Allegedly, the runway would have passed through that part of the cinema complex.

Woooo...spooky http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

BS87
06-26-2004, 10:33 AM
Regarding the whole god issue, I don't believe in the whole adam and eve bit, i'm more keen on evolution. But the "Big Bang" still perplexes me. I ask people where the big bang (which created all forms of matter, aparently) came from, and usually they name a few elements or somesuch reaction, etc. They usually don't have an answer when i ask them, How that reaction would happen if the Big Bang created all matter, and therefore the reactants neccesary were not in existance yet.

Life is a mystery not meant to be understood.

Dawg-of-death
06-26-2004, 10:39 AM
What about that big monster in the pond over there............................"They" put it there

Bad-MF(Mongrel Fighter) AKA .......Dawg-of-death

Maple_Tiger
06-26-2004, 10:41 AM
I am so spooked from reading these posts lol...

I want my mommy.


Elvis is an alien.

Capt. 361stMapleTiger.
http://img52.photobucket.com/albums/v158/Maple_Tiger/FBAA2.gif
Proud member of the FBAA and Nutty Philosohpy Club.

DuxCorvan
06-26-2004, 01:38 PM
For real 'spooky' phenomena, see this:

http://www.leftfield-psi.net/ghosts/belmez.html

This is not a fraud. Rooms were even sealed by a judge order, only to be legally broken before police some weeks later and check the faces had changed, even moved.

So, JimRockford, you can sleep there if you want. I wouldn't do it for a million dollars. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

- Dux Corvan -
http://www.uploadit.org/DuxCorvan/Altamira2.jpg
Ten thousand years of Cantabrian skinning.

Baron_Kiptofen
06-26-2004, 04:18 PM
Just some quick points:

1.) Yes, only 6 there, miscount on my part. But that only leaves 1 planet missing: And which religion or myth couldn't resist adding to their numbers, eh? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I just used it as a throw away example of the problems with belief in UFO's: most believers don't understand the basic facts, and so are more easily able to go "Wow" at something which isn't quite such a mystery after all. But mea culpa for the counting on my part.

2.) Regarding Contact the film: Ironically, it's opening sequence is actually one of the best arguments AGAINST recent Alien visitation. You remember the scene... Earth, radio waves radiating outwards, eventually picked up by another alien civilization. Well this is actually true: Our radio waves now cover an area of approximately 60 light years. Anyone listening within 60 light years knows wer are there. But... that also means that anyone within 30 light years who is both listening and has the ability to reply will already have done so. And we have heard nothing. No radio waves. No deliberate reply. Nothing yet. You see...

3.) The very thing which makes life so absolutely certain elsewhere in the Universe, also makes it likely to be absolutely huge distances away. A dice rolled for eternity will eventually roll a 100 6's in a row... just don't expect to do it soon. So it is with life in the Universe. I entirely accept we are not alone. What I debate is that they've been HERE: Because...

4.) There are all sorts of further problems apart from distance, but staying with that for now: Read up on energy requirements for travel across Galactic distances. To power a probe to Alpha Centauri, our closest neighbour 4.3 Light Years away, with the best theoretical Tech that can be concieved of being constructed now, would still take 40 years to get there, and use the same amount of energy as 100x the entire annual US energy output. Going the speed of light speeds up journey time, but slows down time outside the craft, as all good geeks know, so the time saving is only useful for the crew: But that requires an impossible energy requirement. And this can't be gotten around by...

5.) Thinking outside the box. Sorry, the box is all there is. In order to ignore the limitations upon space travel, you have to disprove the limits, you can't claim some other new set of limits. Our current understanding has to be completely wrong: And there is no evidence that is, and ample evidence that it is not. There may be area's of which we do not know enough, such as sub atomic particles, but when it comes to moving normal atoms around the universe, our knowledge is pretty accurate. And it says there's no cheap and fast rides through the universe. Star Wars/Trek looks cool, but it's never going to be reality

6.) Besides, even if there were fast and quick methods, there are ever more things running against Alien contact apart from sheer size of the universe. For instance, consider a species age. What do I mean? Well, how old is Mankind. We've existed as an identifiable species for about 2 million years. Records of our societies are about 5,000 years old. We've only had radio for about 100 (being loose with figures, bear with me). How much longer will we last? Well, considering our propensity for violence, and that we now have nuclear weapons, who'd dare to guess that time? Let's be generous and say mankind lasts another 5,000 years without really messing up. That gives about 5,100 years of our species being able to talk to another race across the galaxy. That gives you a limit of a 5,100 light year circle for anyone to hear you. Anyone over 2,550 years will be out of luck: By the time their message gets back to us, we'll be long dead. And if that doesn't illustrate the problem for you...

The universe is 156 BILLION Light Years Wide at present, and expanding. It is 10 Billion light years high, and is 15 odd billion years old. And in all of that, even being optomistic for how long intelligent life on earth will last, we have to pray that our tiny little band of signals exists AT THE SAME TIME as another intellegent species. Life is guarentee'd to exist elsewhere. But given the sheer scale of the Universe, it could exist right next door to us, but never know we were here because for another 10 Billion years, we won't be. And unless mankind changes it's ways pretty quickly, we won't be on the Galactic stage for very long either. You have to match both time and distance for communication. Anyone setting out 5 million years ago after recieving our signal will arrive to a dead planet with no trace of mankind left. And so too for us as well.
The human mind was built for analysing things within our own lifetime; events happening in sub seconds or millions of years have no relevance to the cave man, they don't help him catch his food. Hence we still have extreme difficulty trying to understand such events... trying to cope with the enormous majesty of the Universe. Hence we either just call it all "God" (hence creationism, but I won't touch that with a barge pole, hooooo no!) or we try and cut it all up into nice simple and small parts so we can deal with it. We imagine some sort of Space-Wheel to make travelling easy, just as we did here on Earth. But the Universe cares nothing for such human conciets: It is what it is.

And on and on I could go. The reality is that the odds are just too stacked against ever meeting Alien life. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and I'm just not convinced that a few blurred photo's and some particularily excited nerds stack up well against the sheer size of the problems involved in coming here! I am relatively hopeful that one day SETI will pick up a signal from someone else; but for all those dreams we all had of gigantic space battles, the most likely future will be of the mother of all long distance calls.

Simjock
06-26-2004, 06:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>And on and on I could go. The reality is that the odds are just too stacked against ever meeting Alien life. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and I'm just not convinced that a few blurred photo's and some particularily excited nerds stack up well against the sheer size of the problems involved in coming here! I am relatively hopeful that one day SETI will pick up a signal from someone else; but for all those dreams we all had of gigantic space battles, the most likely future will be of the mother of all long distance calls.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I enjoyed reading that. I don't think Carl Segan could have said it better.

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Huxley_S
06-26-2004, 06:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>And on and on I could go. The reality is that the odds are just too stacked against ever meeting Alien life. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No need dude... I totally agree with you. Somewhere out there are some alien dudes realising exactly the same thing. But that still leaves a whole lotta space that we can go to on our own... starting with the rest of the Solar system.

"You know all that money we spend on nuclear weapons and defence every year? Trillions of dollars? Correct? Trillions, Instead, if we spent that money feeding and clothing the poor of the world, which it would pay for many times over, not one human being excluded, not one, we could, as one race, explore outer space together in peace forever. You've been great, thank you."

- Bill Hicks, Village Gate, NYC 1990.

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