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BennyMoore
07-23-2004, 12:24 AM
Did you ever manage to contact that real life P-38 pilot and send him a copy of the game? Or is this project scrapped for some reason?

Currently I am waiting on his verdict to add to my collection of evidence before I create my thread on P-38 in real life versus P-38 in the game.

I know what your opinion on that is, but regardless every P-38 lover here would greatly benefit from the real life P-38 pilot's input.

BennyMoore
07-23-2004, 12:24 AM
Did you ever manage to contact that real life P-38 pilot and send him a copy of the game? Or is this project scrapped for some reason?

Currently I am waiting on his verdict to add to my collection of evidence before I create my thread on P-38 in real life versus P-38 in the game.

I know what your opinion on that is, but regardless every P-38 lover here would greatly benefit from the real life P-38 pilot's input.

Yellonet
07-23-2004, 04:52 AM
Just prepare for a good flamewar when you post that thread http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


- Yellonet

Copperhead310th
07-23-2004, 05:08 AM
it won't matter much. Oleg won't belive him anyway. you could introduce OM to Richard Bong in person (were he still living) and Oleg would Most likly still disregard HIS input. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Oleg has already said that pilots are biased.
and thier opinions cannot be considerd. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/51.gif

http://imageshack.us/files/copper%20sig%20with%20rank.jpg
310th FS & 380th BG website (http://www.310thVFS.com)

SeaFireLIV
07-23-2004, 05:09 AM
What is it with some people? Do they just LOOK for trouble? To update you, Gibbage said he was going to SimHQ and was never coming back to this `filth-bucket` as he so eloquently put it.

Will you be unbiased on your evidence, BennyMoore? Or just use the bits that suit you?

F19_Ob
07-23-2004, 05:11 AM
That would be interesting, good initiative. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
Im also collecting data for my own archive for all kinds of planes.

I would like to suggest to anyone making comparisons to get as many views (contemporary too) as possible (both negative and positive), and also from the enemy side too. Added to this some modern specs data from a few sources.
There is ofcourse more variables to add but these will atleast give some balance.

regards!

Hoarmurath
07-23-2004, 05:48 AM
Well, as i was saying already in simHQ, i was reading some days ago an account from a pilot who shot down two fw190 with its P38... It took him all of its ammo (150 20mm and 1200 12.7mm) to obtain this result.. Do this mean that the fw 190 should be much more tough than it is now? that 12.7mm and 20mm is overmodelled in the game? no, it only mean that this particular day, this pilot needed that much, nothing more, nothing less... There are so many pilots accounts that you can make them tell anything you want, you just have to select them carefully...

Maybe you should also have a look at the credits in the il2 manual, there are some ww2 pilots names in it. Maybe you will explain why these particular pilots opinion is of no value to you?

http://hoarmurath.free.fr/images/sighoar.jpg (http://hoarmurath.free.fr/files/internationale-ru.mp3)
56Kers are strongly advised to NOT click on my signature http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

F19_Ob
07-23-2004, 06:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hoarmurath:
Well, as i was saying already in simHQ, i was reading some days ago an account from a pilot who shot down two fw190 with its P38... It took him all of its ammo (150 20mm and 1200 12.7mm) to obtain this result.. Do this mean that the fw 190 should be much more tough than it is now? that 12.7mm and 20mm is overmodelled in the game? no, it only mean that this particular day, this pilot needed that much, nothing more, nothing less... There are so many pilots accounts that you can make them tell anything you want, you just have to select them carefully...

Maybe you should also have a look at the credits in the il2 manual, there are some ww2 pilots names in it. Maybe you will explain why these particular pilots opinion is of no value to you?

http://hoarmurath.free.fr/files/internationale-ru.mp3
56Kers are strongly advised to _NOT_ click on my signature http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with Hoarmurath.
Its impossible to answer from that info unless u can give a detailed account for where all bullets hit and what damage they caused.

-----------------------------------------------

I have read hundreds of quite detailed acounts of battles,(trying to pay attention to guns and damage) and still think its impossible to say anything about the accurasy of weapons in FB. So in my cannons tests for example I only display my results, not if I think its accurate or not. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Zayets
07-23-2004, 06:17 AM
I don't know why I'm getting myself in this discussion since the only thing I don't like about .50's is the sound.Sounds like cr@p.
But,if I would be the game maker,I would do research like how's the hitting power,ROF,velocity,impact on different surfaces.ALL SCIENTIFIC,nothing more nothing less.Same would go for flight models and damage models.AND I WOULD NOT CHANGE ANY DARN THING EVEN IF THE WHINE WILL REACH MOUNT EVEREST.
Here are the tables and calculations boys,is anything wrong here?Bet you it isn't!Ah,there were some "events" in the war which are in obvious contradiction with what the game is doing?Maybe,but the same real things were designed scientifically first and tuned after users inputs where that was possible.Where not, well,is war,what do you expect.I don't want to sound that I have a lack of respect for the veterans,but this is just a game,not war.If you want war,enlist yourself and go in Iraq or Afganistan.ONU needs also troops in Sudan and former Yugoslavia.Is just a game , and for 40 euros I still have the kick of my entire gaming life so far.

Zayets out

http://server5.uploadit.org/files/Zayets-sigIAR.jpg

NorrisMcWhirter
07-23-2004, 06:23 AM
^^^ These are the points I've been making for some time and Oleg is exactly right in disregarding what is anecdotal evidence because people will naturally be biased.

For example; take this message board - if we assume the message board to be representative of human nature, then you can see precisely why Oleg is right in his thinking.



Cheers,
Norris

================================================== ==========

: Chris Morris - Blue Jam :
http://cabinessence.cream.org/

: More irreverence :
http://www.tvgohome.com/

: You've seen them... :
www.chavscum.co.uk (http://www.chavscum.co.uk)

SeaFireLIV
07-23-2004, 07:38 AM
Yes, NorrisMcWhirter.

I don`t know why, but it`s incredibly HARD to get some people to try and be objective. Ok, they`ll always be some bias- everyone is, but this is why it`s so important for those who feel strongly about their particular favourite aircraft to be even MORE CAREFUL.

*Please read the WHOLE post carefully before responding, if you do*:

I say:
NEVER take GUNCAM footage as TOTAL evidence.

NEVER take PILOT R\L reports as TOTAL evidence.

NEVER take TECHNICAL MANUALS as TOTAL evidence.

Same with ALL other evidence.

Rather, look at ALL the evidence, both GOOD and BAD and put together the BEST representation of WWII aircraft possibe, EVEN if this means that YOUR FAVE plane ends up WORSE than you thought before!!

Think of CSI!


The thing is, a lot of people are simply not honest enough to admit if evidence might reveal something they don`t want to hear.

IT`s like they simply don`t care for the bad news parts of their plane, just the good - then they say it`s historical and realistic!

SeaFireLIV...

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v31/SeaFireLIV/SigHarry.jpg

Harris was overjoyed when the Controller gave him bombs at last!

WUAF_Badsight
07-23-2004, 07:47 AM
what is it with the P-38 thats wrong ?

WUAF_Hero is one of the best Lightning pilots ive seen online & he only talks about the things shaking

(& ammo count , but that was corrected wasnt it ?)

EDIT . . . . i know that zero torque effect isnt possible in FB BTW

.
__________________________________________________ __________________________
actual UBI post :
"If their is a good server with wonder woman views but historic planesets...let me know!" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

NegativeGee
07-23-2004, 08:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
Gibbage said he was going to SimHQ and was never coming back to this `filth-bucket` as he so eloquently put it.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Classic Gibbage subtlety http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/34.gif I'm surprised he didn't use caps.

I agree about the objectivity issue 100%. Also, I so often read "I have an opinion- what evidence can I find to support it?" instead off "does all the evidence support my opinion?".

"As weaponry, both were good, but in far different ways from each other. In a nutshell, I describe it this way: if the FW 190 was a sabre, the 109 was a florett, or foil, like that used in the precision art of fencing." - G√ľnther Rall

http://www.invoman.com/images/tali_with_hands.jpg

Look Noobie, we already told you, we don't have the Patch!

F19_Ob
07-23-2004, 08:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:
what is it with the P-38 thats wrong ?

WUAF_Hero is one of the best Lightning pilots ive seen online & he only talks about the things shaking

(& ammo count , but that was corrected wasnt it ?)

EDIT . . . . i know that zero torque effect isnt possible in FB BTW

.
__________________________________________________ __________________________
actual UBI post :
"If their is a good server with wonder woman views but historic planesets...let me know!" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



I dont want to look for what is wrong only, and there must be many things we absolutely cant know since we dont have the experience of flying the planes ourselves.

If the sim only had 2 planes they maybe could have done heavier tweaking on the models and spend more time on them.
On the p38 U could then added the flipping effect when one of the engines died at slow speed and low altitude and if u hadnt time to feather the prop, the plane used to flip upside down and many pilots died. Recently a during a display a p38 did this and was destroyed.
Another thing is the turning effect when one engine was throttled up and the other down, wich was a very fast motion and used in combat by experienced pilots.
But I wonder if this is possible to do in a sim today.

Personally I like the p38 and I like to fly it but as most of us I have no clue how close to the real thing it is.

Just a few thoughts.

Cheers

LeadSpitter_
07-23-2004, 08:34 AM
edited being nice http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[This message was edited by LeadSpitter_ on Fri July 23 2004 at 08:47 AM.]

MEGILE
07-23-2004, 08:38 AM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Leadspitter, classic!

http://www.5thairforce.com/e107_files/public/p51darkj.jpg

MetalG.
07-23-2004, 08:48 AM
Fail to see the point/fun/joke, some guy gets shot down and bails out?
Or is there more to it then just that...

SeaFireLIV
07-23-2004, 08:48 AM
That kind of thing doesn`t help, leadspitter, really...

I have a little secret for you. You actually flew alongside me yesterday and we fought together in battle... At least you do communicate when you need help! :P

Don`t pan others online in HL because others may pan you, m8!

WUAF_Badsight
07-23-2004, 09:33 AM
the L & the J both hit the correct speeds at the correct Alt according to the object viewer

the L doesnt want to go to its rated max AlT

.
__________________________________________________ __________________________
actual UBI post :
"If their is a good server with wonder woman views but historic planesets...let me know!" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Hoarmurath
07-23-2004, 09:46 AM
Well, leadspitter, good that you take pride of shooting someone down on a server where there are 30 people fighting...

You may not notice on that screenshot, but i was flying a P38J, and already had a victory. It was well done anyway, good shooting, i made a mistake staying in furball while my ammo were getting low. Tried to rtb too late... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://hoarmurath.free.fr/images/sighoar.jpg (http://hoarmurath.free.fr/files/internationale-ru.mp3)
56Kers are strongly advised to NOT click on my signature http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Maple_Tiger
07-23-2004, 09:49 AM
I agree there Badsight,

They both can reach there max speeds.

However, I find that i can get the L to its max ceiling. The J on the other hand, comes up short. I mean about 1000m short. This was in 2.02 though.

Capt. 361stMapleTiger.
http://img52.photobucket.com/albums/v158/Maple_Tiger/FBAA2.gif
Proud member of the FBAA and Nutty Philosohpy Club.

LeadSpitter_
07-23-2004, 09:50 AM
its all in good fun hourmurath, I actually owe gibbage a kill and pk. last time i flew with him he got me last p51d me in the 190a9 snapped my cables then got my chute.

http://img14.photobucket.com/albums/v43/leadspitter/LSIG1.gif

Franzen
07-23-2004, 11:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NorrisMcWhirter:
^^^ These are the points I've been making for some time and Oleg is exactly right in disregarding what is anecdotal evidence because people will naturally be biased.

For example; take this message board - if we assume the message board to be representative of human nature, then you can see precisely why Oleg is right in his thinking.



Cheers,
Norris

================================================== ==========

: Chris Morris - Blue Jam :
http://cabinessence.cream.org/

: More irreverence :
http://www.tvgohome.com/

: You've seen them... :
http://www.chavscum.co.uk
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with you and Oleg on this matter. I can't see how anyone would say "it should be this way because(insert famous pilot)said so".

How many years ago was it? How many times has the story been told? How many of these pilots are human? I can't remember the term but it is commonly known that the more times a story is told the more inaccurate it becomes. It's simply human nature.
I've watched a couple of Chuck Yaeger interviews and frankly speaking I take much of what he says with a grain of salt. This doesn't mean I have any negative thoughts about his person but simply just as I mentioned above.
The best we have to go on isn't good enough. Technical data from the companies that design, build, and test the planes is still not 100% trustworthy. Their goal was to sell a better plane.
As for the pilot that emptied all his weapons in the P38 to down 2 190's, mmm,..well..., what did you think when you first read it? My thought was he should try to improve his aim. Maybe you thought the 190 is tough. so, with this in mind how can we think his testimony is something to use for a DM?
In summary, using a pilot's tesimony(created in the heat of battle)as a basis for a dm or fm 50 years after the fact is not valid.
The best Oleg and the crew can do is use what ever "factual" data they can find. Add it all up and take an average.
No disrespect toward pilots. They did what they had to do for what they thought was the defense of their family and nation. They were soldiers but human first. Humans have more bugs than FB and if I remember correctly, FB was created by humans. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Fritz Franzen

Hoarmurath
07-23-2004, 12:14 PM
Two points for the pilot who shot down two focke wulf using all its ammo on a P38... it was a combat report, so done freshly after combat, and the pilot was to become an ace... It was a combat report from Robin Olds, last pilot to become ace on P38 in 8thAF... Of course the report is quite long, i will not reproduce it here, because all i have is a french translation.. I don't think it is a good idea to translate it back all by myself... To resume, i'll say that he began to fire at approximately 400m, for long bursts, 5 to 8 seconds... What did i thought when i did read it? I just noticed that even while he was observing hits on the ennemy planes, those hits were not enough to bring them down outright. He had to keep firing to be sure they were actually shot down. It was on the 14th Aout 1944, on a P38J "L2-B" on a rubharb mission. And these were its two first victories. Maybe it is possible to have an english transcript of this report somewhere if you're interested.

http://hoarmurath.free.fr/images/sighoar.jpg (http://hoarmurath.free.fr/files/internationale-ru.mp3)
56Kers are strongly advised to NOT click on my signature http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

karost
07-23-2004, 03:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Copperhead310th:
it won't matter much. Oleg won't belive him anyway. you could introduce OM to Richard Bong in person (were he still living) and Oleg would Most likly still disregard HIS input. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Oleg has already said that pilots are biased.
and thier opinions cannot be considerd. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/51.gif

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So some history combat books from a pilots are biased's books right ?

well... that make me feel bad http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

S!

horseback
07-23-2004, 08:07 PM
Don't feel bad, Korost-consider what they're saying in context, and remember that the pilots were mostly guys in their twenties, not exactly the most articulate people in the world, and tended to judge things on the basis of their own limited experience (gee, not unlike many of us).

A young guy spends three or four frightening months flying P-47s in late 1943. The Germans are flying aircraft with better climb, better accelleration and tighter turning ability at most speeds and altitudes. He does, however, learn how to make the most of his Jug, getting 2 or three kills (he's pretty good).

Now put him into a Mustang.

It climbs quite a bit better, turns tighter (not quite as good a roll rate, but a sustained turn is way better than he's used to), accellerates well, has comparable speed and dive advantages at altitude, and can take him where the 'easy meat', the twin engined zerstorers are. He's thinking "Wait'll I get my hooks into those jokers in their 109s..."

The first few 109s and 190s he encounters are just as used to Jugs as he is, and expect no more out of the (to them) still oversized new Ami fighter. Surprise! The Mustang turns & climbs tighter than the 109 drivers expect, they try diving away, some of their buddies die, and both sides come away thinking the Mustang driver has all the cards.

American fighter pilots coming back from their initial sorties with it (in early '44)were convinced that the Mustang could turn and climb (oh, yes, and dive) with anything the Germans had.

Bear in mind that their fights had all been at 20,000 ft or higher, that the Yanks had, as was their doctrine, maintained high speeds, and the Germans had no clue what to expect, and they mostly guessed wrong at the critical moments.

Oh, and the Americans had a good idea of what they had vs what they were up against.

Does that fire a young guy up? You betcha. Before long, almost every fighter group in the 8th is banging on the table for P-51s, and believing in it, having faith in it, they would exaggerate its virtues and minimize its faults (the ones that they noticed, anyway). Confidence can lead to success, and success leads to fond memories.

So, yes, you have to take what these guys said (and say, the few who are left-and who doesn't know and old guy who likes to go on and on about when he was young?) with a grain of salt.

Now, of course, we know things that would have curled that young Mustang driver's hair. The guys driving the 190s and 109s would still have had some morale issues, and their aircraft were not built to the same Quality standards they were in the first half of the war, but by and large, everyone understands that the guys who were actually out there fighting the war knew next to nothing about what they were doing, and it is only by the grace of God (or the Cosmic Muffin, if that's your creed) and a bunch of thirty or forty something year old history professors who never actually accomplished anything, instead writing books about those who did (and how badly they did it, and how they should have done it, if only the author had been there to tell him how), that we now know what actually happened.

Me? I think that every word that one of those garrilous old farts says is pure Gospel.

cheers

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944

LEXX_Luthor
07-23-2004, 08:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>that we now know what actually happened<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Pilot stories never tell what is happening in the other cockpit, or the other pilot's nature...in case we were wondering if the man in the pit plays any role. All the pilot story can tell is a distant visual story about an enemy piece of metal...or wood.


__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack

"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Franzen
07-24-2004, 05:07 AM
I saw a clip of a 190 pilot returning from a combat mission. This was real footage. I always thought that it was quite interesting how he's standing beside his plane, minutes after landing, and describing a kill he had just got, presumably a bomber. He was using his hand to represent what had happened. When you watch this you'll notice that he puts himself at a completely impossible view point, unless of course he was attacking from a submarine.
The point is, he was young, full of adrenilin, surrounded by the excited ground crew, and only minutes after landing, already unintensionally giving an innaccurate account.
After he must tell the story again to his commanding officer.
Then later after relaxing a little he has to write a detailed report,.....not the first time he tells the story though.
Anyone who writes detailed reports knows that it isn't easy and that's without the life threatening situation and all the excitement.

Fritz Franzen

CHDT
07-24-2004, 05:16 AM
Remember this very good movie "The Right Stuff", yes, remember what the pilots thought of the engineers and what the engineers thought of the pilots!

Truth is probably in the middle but if my life would be in balance, I would prefer to trust the man at the controls http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

SeaFireLIV
07-24-2004, 06:20 AM
I won`t repeat horseback`s post, but he has the point perfectly. Pilot recollections, while not lies or intended to be `over the top` have to be taken alongside other evidence (along with opposing pilot evidence if possible, etc). And I have the GREATEST respect for these people.



@ karost

Can you recollect EVERYTHING that happened to you yesterday in perfect detail ? Could you do this again 40-60 years later?

You may think you can, but it`s VERY unlikely.

I`m actually quite amazed just how many posters here do not appear to undersatand this simple logical fact. I can only assume that they`re are more younger and impressionable people here than I first realised (or some who know better but just don`t care as long as their fave plane flies better than everyone elses!)

I just hope that some you who see one piece of evidence then jump to overwhelming conclusions do NOT work as Police Detectives/Inspectors in REAL LIFE! We`d all be in serious trouble!

SeaFireLIV...

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v31/SeaFireLIV/SigHarry.jpg

Harris was overjoyed when the Controller gave him bombs at last!

Want to see more? go here: http://seafire.dreyermachine.com/
(Fantasy sections for mature viewers only).

Covino
07-24-2004, 07:28 AM
For your information, CFS2 was built with a Pacific WW2 pilot as an advisor and other pilots consulted too. FM's were ****. I've also seen books and interviews where the pilot reports were way off mark. Facts, not opinions, please.

Hoarmurath
07-24-2004, 07:56 AM
Sure tOn, now, when we have contradictory accounts about some planes capabilities, which ones must we trust?

http://hoarmurath.free.fr/images/sighoar.jpg (http://hoarmurath.free.fr/files/internationale-ru.mp3)
56Kers are strongly advised to NOT click on my signature http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

TgD Thunderbolt56
07-24-2004, 09:13 AM
LOL...A thread titled "Gibbage" that's 2 pages long that doesn't even have one post from Gibbage. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

http://www.greatergreen.com/il2

Franzen
07-24-2004, 09:15 AM
Don't worry, Gibbage has probably been reading and chuckling. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Fritz Franzen

Zayets
07-24-2004, 09:16 AM
This was a combat report for Romanian pilots.Check the fact that the pilot didn't knew the bomber was down,thus,initially he didn't included that in his report. Here (http://www.worldwar2.ro/arr/doc1.htm) is the report.

Zayets out

http://server5.uploadit.org/files/Zayets-sigIAR.jpg

Tully__
07-24-2004, 11:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Copperhead310th:
Oleg has already said that pilots are biased.
and thier opinions cannot be considerd. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You have to love selective quoting. He said that pilot accounts could not be considered without supporting test results. Not quite the same thing, eh? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

=================================================


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Tully's X-45 profile (SST drivers) (http://members.optusnet.com.au/tully_78th/fb.zip)

Salut
Tully

Hoarmurath
07-24-2004, 11:29 AM
yep, pilots accounts are useful to get the general picture, but they stay subjective. We are speaking about a computer simulation here, it needs nombers. If the nombers obtained with the test results that were made show discrepancies with pilots accounts, you can search for more tests results, or for something you may have missed. But in no case you should take the pilots accounts only and work on this base. Especially when you limit yourself to a very few of these accounts.

http://hoarmurath.free.fr/images/sighoar.jpg (http://hoarmurath.free.fr/files/internationale-ru.mp3)
56Kers are strongly advised to NOT click on my signature http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

whitetornado_1
07-24-2004, 04:33 PM
Hi everybody.For those who like to read modern accounts of the P-38.I like and buy this journal.
Its nice reading

http://www.flightjournal.com/articles/p-38_lightning/p-38_lightning_3.asp

BennyMoore
07-25-2004, 01:37 AM
Well, seeing as how this thread was meant to address Gibbage (I haven't had much luck in the past with private topics, and Leadspitter apparently doesn't check his e-mail), and Gibbage has read the initial post and invited me to a private topic, I should delete the thread, but Whitetornado's link makes it worthwhile not to do that.

Hey Whitetornado, did you get Jeff's Roaring Glory video on the P-38? I did and it's probably the best twelve dollars I've ever spent.

Franzen
07-26-2004, 12:34 AM
Hi Benny,

Besides the link the thread is interesting and has been kept somewhat calm. I would only deleted if it gets out of hand.

It must be really difficult for Oleg to try to similate flying a WW2 plane, in combat and accurately. For the models I'm sure he tries to use statistical and accurate data. But the end result is us, the customers. He has to somehow give us the same subjective feelings the real pilots wrote about.
So, he must work objectively to create subjective results. I won't be applying for his job any time soon. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I think we must be more objective in our views and opinions and also be more patient. Just think of the first version to what we have now.

Fritz Franzen