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Franzen
05-05-2004, 12:59 AM
Hi all,

I'm putting together a project involving care, minor repairs, and eventually restoration of a few WW2 warbirds. I'm looking at a few P-51's, possibly a P-61, a couple La's, a P-40, an IL-2, a I-16 and a few others but all are in poor condition, some could be made flyable. I was hoping that maybe some of you guyz, or galz, are familiar with this type of work. If so I'd really appreciate any input or suggestions you have to offer. Thx in advance.

Fritz Franzen

Franzen
05-05-2004, 12:59 AM
Hi all,

I'm putting together a project involving care, minor repairs, and eventually restoration of a few WW2 warbirds. I'm looking at a few P-51's, possibly a P-61, a couple La's, a P-40, an IL-2, a I-16 and a few others but all are in poor condition, some could be made flyable. I was hoping that maybe some of you guyz, or galz, are familiar with this type of work. If so I'd really appreciate any input or suggestions you have to offer. Thx in advance.

Fritz Franzen

Lawn_Dart
05-05-2004, 01:27 AM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

-HH-Dubbo
05-05-2004, 01:38 AM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif
Sorry. More information please. Not that I can help but you've definitely piqued my curiosity.
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://www.angelfire.com/falcon/nightschpanker/crashoz.jpg
Kermit the Frog is actually a south paw.

SKIDRO_79FS
05-05-2004, 01:55 AM
Franzen, you're talking multi-millions of dollars here and believe me warbirds just don't grow on trees most of them are being hoarded by professional restorers who use them for parts and/or as patterns to manufacture new parts from. Even restoring a single plane for static display (non-flyable) runs well into the high hundreds of thousands if you start with a total basketcase.

Years ago I was looking at buying an A-26 Invader (at the time I was making alot of money and, alas, now those times are long since gone) and though the price for the actual aircraft was very resonable just to get it to a condition where it could be flown to a restoration facility would have been close to 100,000 dollars. After that it has to be taken apart and gone over with a fine tooth comb before the FAA will allow it to fly. It has to be better than new and up to current specs. In short, you need a full team of people to do the work for you or it would take years to just do a single one. Toss in hangar rental, tools, the cost of getting parts you can't make created, etc. and in no time you are well over half a million and then some. Once you have it flying there's regular maintenance, the cost of having a pilot (or getting trained in the aircraft type, a crew to keep it running right, and so on and so on...)

Use the "Glacier Girl" P-38 as an example, there's over 2 million dollars and a decade plus worth of work in that one aircraft and while the results are simply amazing to see in the sky, the amount of money it will take to keep it there is amazing.

That having been said, if I had the money I would have gone for it before I ever got near a computer to ask for opinions and information. I don't though, so I have to be content with the handful of parts I have in my collection....

Franzen
05-05-2004, 01:58 AM
Well, I live in Beijing where we have all the planes mentioned, including the P61.

http://www.afwing.com/gallery/beijing.htm

I'm putting together a project involving local FB players and people just genuinely interested in warbirds. Our first goal will be regular cleaning of the existing units. Second, which I won't give details at present, will be minor repairs. What immidiately comes to mind is a P-51 in need of a rudder, elevators, tailgear assembly, canopy and possibly paint to make it at least appear complete. I believe this to be a fairly easy task including the parts, funding, and repair.
But as I mentioned there are a lot of Russian units. I need things like resoration sites and advice for these. Any info will be valuable.

Fritz Franzen

trumper
05-05-2004, 02:01 AM
Blimey good luck.You will need alot of money or friends who have alot of money oh and aeroplanes.
I would think your best bet would to join a warbird restoration group and see the realities of the work and costss involved.
I would also suggest that you have a look at this forum http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?s=4622def428601e61e5fd9208d643112 f&forumid=4 ,theres alot of advice and pilots and restorers that post on there,just be courteous and ask.
I remember talking to someone who restored aircraft and the cost of one bolt can cost 50 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

310th Falcon
05-05-2004, 02:02 AM
S! Franzen

My advice to you if you have the money is buy them one at a time and start your restoration of those beauties. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Once finish some of them will be worth alots of Dinero. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Best Regards http://www.cup.com/kobayashi-dojo/english/aisatsu.gif

Falcon
http://members.optusnet.com.au/cailith/coolsoldier.gif

http://777avg.com/sigs/sig07.gif

Franzen
05-05-2004, 02:04 AM
You are right Trumper. He he he, my friend just sold 3 Mercedes Maybachs. Don't worry, the money is there. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Fritz Franzen

Franzen
05-05-2004, 02:14 AM
That's a good idea Falcon but personally, I'm saving up to buy a 109 from Flugwerk. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
No restoration, just assembly.

Fritz Franzen

Franzen
05-05-2004, 02:30 AM
Hi Skidro,

I missed your posting earlier. All of the warbirds I mentioned are in similar condition or better than the P-61 I posted. Believe me, I would not attempt anything like the first P61 project mentioned. My idea of restoration starts with something that's at least 80% complete. I wouldn't want to bother with anything less than 60% complete

Fritz Franzen

Sam311
05-05-2004, 02:42 AM
im an aircraft mechanic with A&P license. Pay me $15 an hour and I'll help. Hope you dont live to far away.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

**** just noticed you're in Beijing http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Franzen
05-05-2004, 02:43 AM
Sam311, how far are you from Beijing?

Fritz Franzen

Franzen
05-05-2004, 09:53 AM
bump!

Chuck_Older
05-05-2004, 10:33 AM
I saw in the latest Warbirds International that P-51D "Miss Marilyn II" is for sale...well over a million dollars. It's probably the best restored P-51 in existence.


Consider that in man hours, the cost of actually restoring the aircraft is much more than that.

Franzen, if you have that type of cash lying around, I'd like to ask you a question:

Can you front me a measly 10 grand? For you, it's spare change http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

*****************************
The hillsides ring with, "Free the People",
Or can I hear the echoes from the days of '39?
~ Clash

Sam311
05-05-2004, 11:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Franzen:
Sam311, how far are you from Beijing?

Fritz Franzen<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

very very far

VonKlugermon
05-05-2004, 11:43 AM
Franzen:

Contact some of the collectors like Kermit Weeks at "Fantasy of Flight" in Polk City, Florida, USA. There is a company near me called "Black Shadow Aviation" that does warbird restoration. The Experimental Aircaft Association (EAA) probably has all kinds of contacts. If your serious, anyone in this business would bend over backwards to help you, especially if you have items/parts/aircraft to barter with! You know what they say, money talks!

Willy

Blottogg
05-05-2004, 10:33 PM
Franzen, the short answer is the same as it is for most aviation endeavors: add money and stir.

Your multi-step approach sounds like a good idea, but I'm not sure you're aware of how much time, money and effort will be required to restore a warbird. I'm only vaguely familiar with the Beijing Black Widow for example, but what I've read about it says that the corrosion is so bad that the whole airframe is useful for nothing more than a pattern for new parts. It's complete, but not restorable. Of course, I'm sure folks told the Glacier Gal crew similar things, too. The big difference is that Glacier Gal was VERY hard to get to, but while many parts had to be repaired/replaced, corrosion wasn't a big problem. The P-61 is a lot easier to get to (with permission), but not much of the original airframe will ever fly again.

A quick Google search turned up these links. By no means comprehensive, it should get you started at least:

http://www.avsource1.com/warbirds.html

http://www.retroair.co.uk/about.html

http://www.warbirdalley.com/maint.htm

Most of the restoration firms that I've heard of are either in the States, New Zealand, or the UK. Flugwerke, as you mentioned, is a good place to shop for German warbirds in that country. I remember reading about a shop in Australia with a lot of tooling set up for the restoration/rebuild of P-39 rescue projects, but I don't remember specifics. Russia also had programs to build new Yaks (I don't know if the tooling still exists), as well as a steady slow trickle of recovered warbirds, some restored, some sold as hulks.

Given your location, I'd start looking for experience and help from the shops in Australia, New Zealand and/or Russia. Who knows, you could become the shop to turn to to restore warbirds in the PRC. Good luck, and remember to multiply all time and cost estimates by at least two.

Blotto

"Speed is life." - Anon
"Sight is life. Speed is merely groovy." - "Junior"

DaBallz
05-06-2004, 03:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Franzen:
Hi all,

I'm putting together a project involving care, minor repairs, and eventually restoration of a few WW2 warbirds. I'm looking at a few P-51's, possibly a P-61, a couple La's, a P-40, an IL-2, a I-16 and a few others but all are in poor condition, some could be made flyable. I was hoping that maybe some of you guyz, or galz, are familiar with this type of work. If so I'd really appreciate any input or suggestions you have to offer. Thx in advance.

Fritz Franzen<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you got deep pockets a few P-51s can be
purchased. But a flying un restored P-51
in certafied airworthy condition will run
you between $800,000 and $1,700,000 US
depending on condition. Just a rebuilt
Packard RR Merlin will run you $225,000 with
a core.

There are only two intact P-61s that I am aware
of, one at the USAF Museum and one in China.
Neither are airworthy, and I'll bet both
are beyond any purchase price.

Read below, I hadded a quote from Joe Baughers
web site, he says there are 4 survivors.

P-40s are not that hard to find, but the price,
just like the P-51s is in the stratosphere.

The IL2, La's and I-16s might be the easiest to
procure. The Russians might build you new ones
just like the I-16s, I-153 and the new manufacture
Yaks that are now flying.

But there are few if any originals in
restorable condition.

Pie in the sky dude.
Even Bill Gates could not put that group together.
It would take 10 years to build or
replicate the squadron even if you got
twenty or thirty million to burn.

Da...



I am aware of only four surviving P-61 Black Widows, all of them in museums.



P-61C-1-NO serial number 43-8352 is currently on display at the Wright-Patterson Air Force Base Museum in Dayton, Ohio. It is marked as P-61B-1-NO serial number 42-39468 of the 550th NFS "Moonlight Serendade". It had originally been donated to the Boy Scouts of Urbania, Ohio in 1954 and was sold to Earl Reinert of Illinois in 1958, who never collected it. It was passed along to the USAFM later that year.


The Smithsonian Institution's P-61C (43-8330) is reportedly in storage at the Silver Hill facility in Suitland, Maryland, awaiting much-needed restoration work. I was at Silver Hill in November of 1992, and I didn't see it there at that time. However, there were only a couple of buildings that I was allowed to enter, and there are a lot of really intriguing buildings that I did not get a chance to see. Perhaps the Smithsonian's Black Widow is in one of them.


There is a P-61A on display at the Beijing Institute of Aeronautical Engineering in Beijing, China. I am unaware of its serial number. The story of how it got there is sort of interesting. It seems that the 427th Night Fighter Squadron based in China during the war was in preparation for the return home after the end of hostilities. Just as they were were about to leave, some Communist troops came onto the field and ordered the Americans to get out immediately, but to leave their aircraft behind. The Beijing Institute Black Widow may be one of the three P-61Cs seized at that time. It is reported that the Chinese will sell the plane for 2 million dollars, but the wing spar is reportedly so corroded that the aircraft would collapse if moved. There may be other Black Widows in other locations in China.


On January 10, 1945, P-61B 42-39445 crashed near the top of Mount Cyclops in New Guinea during a training flight. The four people aboard survived with only minor injuries, but the wrecked aircraft remained where it hit for over 40 years. In 1991, a team from the Mid-Atlantic Air Museum of Reading, Pennsylvania dismantled the wreck and shipped it back to the USA for restoration and eventual flying status as N550NF.

[This message was edited by DaBallz on Thu May 06 2004 at 02:36 AM.]

woofiedog
05-06-2004, 05:08 AM
Excellent post DaBallz! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif I wonder if the P-51's... Franzen is talking about are H models?

Franzen
05-06-2004, 09:00 AM
Wow,

Thx for all the info guyz. DaBallz, you got sparetime and not enough hobbies? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Could really use a guy like you on this project.

I spent the day visiting some of the planes I mention, even more. The La's were La8 and La11. The IL's were IL-10's, man you should checkout the armor plating that protects the back of the pilot's head. If something even came close to penetrating that 1/2 steel plate it wouldn't matter. The force would rip the cockpit apart.
Anyway, as you said, it will take a mountain range of money but maybe everyone has misunderstood my post. At present there is no plan to make much flyable. The only one's that I would consider would be the stangs or the La's. The P-40 is actually a poorly built replica. The I-16 is only about 70% complete and someone has already done less than perfect work to it. I'm more interested , at present, in doing cosmetic work and cleaning.
As for the money part, I'm pretty sure I can get some funding for that. BTW, Beijing has about 35 Mig jets. I think some bartering can be done.
Thx again guyz, I knew I was in the right forum http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Fritz Franzen

LilHorse
05-06-2004, 12:53 PM
If you're really serious about wanting to restore the P-61 then you'll need to get those R-2800s either re-built or swapped out. Try contacting these guys:

http://www.precisionengines.com/

Taylortony
05-06-2004, 04:05 PM
OK, so i take it you are talking about stabilising these old girls to stop then deteriorating further, externally without seeing the condition of them metal wise, i would treat any surface corrosion with the likes of B55 to kill the corrosion then alochrome it and put a coat of paint on them to protect them, internally for the structure i would use something like ACF 50 this will remove moisture from the structure, kill corrosion, lift it off and form a self healing surface on the internal structure, I would also spend time ensuring all the drains are clear etc, it is sitting level ie not wing down to prevent moisture pooling, I seem to remember seeing photographs of the IL10's are they not stored in a mountain except a couple which are outdoors? Have you considered exchange programs for resources world wide, the IL2 the Americans aquired cost them several UH1 Helicopters of which some were flyers..... I could probably send you parts of the maintenance manuals over the net on corrosion treatment etc...

I am incidently a CAA A and C Licensed Aircraft Chief Engineer.

Chuck_Older
05-06-2004, 04:14 PM
Tony-

I'm not restoring warbirds, classic cars is my thing. Howsabout a link or somesuch to a good website on corrosion control? Thanks in advance

*****************************
The hillsides ring with, "Free the People",
Or can I hear the echoes from the days of '39?
~ Clash

Taylortony
05-06-2004, 05:00 PM
Cars tend to be slightly different but i think you will both find this a good read. Chuck, it covers steels
Franzen it covers everything from fabric repairs, metal repairs canopy repairs including blowing of and corrosion treatments and preventatives
http://www.faa.gov/certification/aircraft/av-info/dst/43-13/default.htm

PlaneEater
05-06-2004, 05:19 PM
Franzen, be EXTREMELY careful with the P-61. Do not do a thing with it, aside from buy it, until you have talked extensively with archivists from Northrop (now Northrop-Grumman), and the team that is restoring a P-61 at the Mid-Atlantic Air Museum.

The P-61 was an incredibly complex aircraft compared to others of the time, and the one there is the only other surviving B model in the world.

It would be best for you to do a lot of talking with people who have restored a number of vintage aircraft before, and have at least two of them look over the airframe. That Black Widow needs to be handled meticulously and with incredible care.

Also be ready to spend well over a million US$ restoring just that aircraft. You aren't dealing with just an airframe--there are also complex metal pieces and surfaces that will need to be machined and hand-fabricated, one of a kind mechanical components for the spoilerons and full-length flaps, a very rare turret assembly, and most of all a radar and gyro instruments.

If you decide to go ahead with this, please be extremely careful and methodical. Otherwise, help somebody else who can restore it correctly obtain that plane.

Frenchy-
05-06-2004, 05:23 PM
I am doing the same as you Franzen.

I'm working on getting two B25s and three P47s from Mexico. We got a deal with the authorities to be able to get some back to the US.
Most of the work will be done in Mexico. Some like the "aeronautical institut" volonteered to participate as a "end of the year project".

If you restaure in the US, it's $35/50 per man hour ... ouchy ... in Mexico it's way cheaper and the skill level is still there. I'm sure in Beijing you will find some great craftmans.

The skin of the plane rivets/metal/ribs is quite cheap. The big $$$ will come from the engine/prop ... all those elect/hyd pumps accumulate quickly to a big tab.

Electrical is ok, more tedious than complex.

Cheers http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

DaBallz
05-06-2004, 06:37 PM
R-2800's are actually quite easy to get.
US millitary aircraft used them through
the 1980's and many DC-6's are still flying.

Finding a R-2800 B series like the -10 might
be a bit trickey.

the P-61 was indeed overly complex, even by
Northrop standards. with only three confirmed
survivors, airframe parts must be impossible
to get.

Sad to say, I read years ago where the Smithstonian's
P-61 was scrapped in the late 70's as being
beyond economical repair/restoration. Sorry
but I can not give reference or verification.
I hope I am wrong.

As an answer to the P-51H comment, there are
only two P-51H's airworthy, and even static
display birds are rare.

P-51Hs are rarer than "Hen's Teeth".

I have 4 years in the USAF on C-130s, and very
little time spinning wrenches on prop planes.

Da...

PlaneEater
05-07-2004, 04:35 AM
The Smithsonian's P-61C was not scrapped. Part of the NASM charter is the restoration of their collection, no matter the cost, because of the irreplacable historical value of the collection.

That, and Moonlight Serenade was taken fresh out of a duty unit. It's in fine condition. Probably been brought off display for cleaning and maintinence, and possibly for the restoration team at MAAM to check parts, but it's still in one happy piece.

Now if only the stupid Chinese could take as good care of rare aircraft.

chilicheese
05-07-2004, 07:37 AM
I highly suggest you contact a couple museums in the states, namely the Santa Monica Museum of Flying and the operation out at Chino.

Aside, I am guessing by your vernacular that you are probably fifteen and pulling our collective legs, as it seems that someone with the massive resources required to begin a warbird collection doesn't use a gaming board to figure out how to do things.

In the future, if you are serious, I suggest that you refrain from using "guyz" and "girlz" in correspondence with the tight fraternity that makes up the warbird restoration market, lest you appear like a hobbyist wanting to live your online dreams.

A generous donation to an aviation museum with a warbird program is a wonderful first step to take in the field....

Franzen
05-07-2004, 11:05 AM
Chilicheese,

Firstly, yes, I was 15 twenty-two years ago.

Secondly, having "massive resourses" doesn't mean **** if you don't have organization. Success depends upon each step taken in the right order.

Thirdly, if you actually read(comprehend)what the others have posted, you'll find there is some good advice including important links that have been offered.(See my second point)

Fourthly, I guess having studied five languages, the history of English, linguistics, worked in advertising(copywriting and slogans)for such companies as Western Pacific, Norinco, BMW, just to mention a few, I somehow had the idea that "guyz" and "girlz" would come across as a friendly gesture.

Lastly, in the future, if you are serious, I suggest that you refrain from being so. Lighten up buddy. Go kill some kittens or something.

BTW, I do appreciate all but one post, thx guyz. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Fritz Franzen

Franzen
05-07-2004, 08:00 PM
bump!

VMF513_Viper
05-07-2004, 08:21 PM
Hello Franzen,

If you contact me via Email, I can speak to my local air museum here in arizona (Museum is over 450 aircraft and the largest in the western US).

I know a few folks and contacts who may be able to assist you in getting theinfo you need for your projects.

My email is boyington214@cox.net.

Too bad I wasnt near you i would come in and help for 15 bucks an hr. Maybe you could fly me to china http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Viper

&lt;table style="filter:glow(color=Navy Blue, strength=3"&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt; &lt;B&gt;&lt;font color=white&gt;Viper&lt;BR&gt;Commanding Officer VMF-513
http://www.vmf513.com
UBI Movie Maker Forum Moderator
Virtual War Cinema Admin
http://www.virtualwarcinema.com
"Chance Favors The Prepared Mind"
&lt;BR&gt;&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/B&gt;

SKIDRO_79FS
05-08-2004, 01:59 AM
Someone mentioned the P-51H earlier, there's one being restored at the Octave Chanute Aerospace Museum right now, the webmaster of the site below has been helping me to identify some of the parts I have from a crashed 20th. Fighter Group P-51D.
The link: http://home.insightbb.com/~p51h/index.htm

wayno7777
05-08-2004, 02:33 AM
It's shame I'm so far away, too. I was a Huey ccrewchief. I'd help out weekends for that. Here's a couple links: http://www.maam.org/p61.html
http://www.stormbirds.com/project/general/updates.htm
http://warbirdsofww2.tripod.com/
http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/index.html
http://www.warbirdalley.com/

You can glean all sorts of information from these sites.
I wish you the best of luck, Fritz!

"Wir greifen an!"
("We attack!")
Erich 'Bubi' Hartmann
http://server6.uploadit.org/files/wayno77-bluesclues3a.JPG

Any landing you can walk away from is a good one!

T_O_A_D
05-08-2004, 10:15 AM
All I can say is if you have the resources and get the info needed go for it. I can only say I wish I lived closer to the project. Im a excellent deisel/auto mechanic with over $30,000 invested in Snapon tools just sitting around now that I'm the boss! I'm sure with the right guidence I could be of use around an aircraft.
We had a museum in the plans here locally Springfield Missouri USA but it fell through I was hoping to donate some time on my weekly 3 days off, but alas it just didn't happen.

Have you checked your Private Topics recently? (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=ugtpc&s=400102)
131st_Toad's Squad link (http://www.geocities.com/vfw_131st/)
My TrackIR fix, Read the whole thread (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?q=Y&a=tpc&s=400102&f=49310655&m=15310285&p=1)
2.11 drivers (http://home.mchsi.com/~131st-vfw/NaturalPoint_trackIR_2_11.exe)
http://home.mchsi.com/~131st_vfw/T_O_A_D.jpg

woofiedog
05-08-2004, 12:11 PM
Thank's for the link SKIDRO_79FS. There is some fine work going into the restoration on that bird.
Why I had orginally asked about the China P-51... is because it was in the Chinese war between the Comunist forces under Mao and Chinese forces under Chiang Kai-shek that the P-51H might have been used in combat... I believe.
I have a listing of 90 P-51's in The Peoples Republic of China. But it dosen't list what type. I also have a picture of a P-51H in Comunist markings.
It could have been in this conflict that the P-51H was used in combat. There is very little written by either side about this part of Chinese history.

Franzen
05-09-2004, 09:36 AM
Hi Guyz,

I'm really pleased with all the info I'm receiving. I knew i came to the right place.

Woofiedog, you mentioned you had a pic of a P-51H with Communist markings on it. Would you mind sending that to me at friedrichfranzen@yahoo.de ? There are two P-51s here in Beijing with the same markings. I'm just curious if your picture is one of them.

Once again thx a lot to all who contributed. It's helped in organizing and research. So far, it seems that a P-51 clean-up and parts replacement will be our first task. We're starting small and who knows what the future will bring. The more I learn the more I realize possibilities. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Fritz Franzen

DaBallz
05-09-2004, 09:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by woofiedog:
Thank's for the link SKIDRO_79FS. There is some fine work going into the restoration on that bird.
Why I had orginally asked about the China P-51... is because it was in the Chinese war between the Comunist forces under Mao and Chinese forces under Chiang Kai-shek that the P-51H might have been used in combat... I believe.
I have a listing of 90 P-51's in The Peoples Republic of China. But it dosen't list what type. I also have a picture of a P-51H in Comunist markings.
It could have been in this conflict that the P-51H was used in combat. There is very little written by either side about this part of Chinese history.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No P-51H's were sold or realesed outside USAAF
inventory until 1957.
I would love to see a P-51H in ANY other countries
markings.
Cavalier P-51D conversions did get sold
abroad and may have wound up with communist
markings. Cavalier P-51s have a H model tail
grafted on but have all other features as a D model.
The landing gear are large and the wings have
a large fillet for them.
The radiator intake is angled as a D model
and not cut off square like an H model.

Da...

Franzen
05-09-2004, 09:59 AM
DaBallz,

Is it fairly simple to distinguish the difference between P-51 models? As I mentioned we have two in Beijing and I don't know which models they are. I know most would say "ask the museum" but,.....well,....mmmmm,....no comment. I'd rather be sure. If it is too complicated maybe I could photogragh them and send you the photos. What's your advice?

Fritz Franzen

chilicheese
05-09-2004, 11:31 AM
I certainly didn't mean to offend, my pentalingual 37 year old friend.

Perhaps some of that Maybach money taken to a bookstore might help you distinguish between a Cavalier and an H model...

Good luck, chief. A valuable contact here for you in the states is a Mr David Price out of the Santa Monica Museum of Flying. He has quite a collection, and used to run a warbird auction out of Santa Monica that ran for a couple years in the early nineties. I suggest you contact him at the museum.

TgD Thunderbolt56
05-09-2004, 12:34 PM
Here are a few restoration links that might help:

http://www.pioneeraero.co.nz/

http://www.warbirdmuseum.com/



http://home.earthlink.net/~aclzkim1/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/il2sig2.jpg

woofiedog
05-10-2004, 08:26 AM
DasBallz the picture caption states that it was a captured P-51H with no other information... not a Cavalier P-51D.
I have a record of 7,956 Cavalier and other firms which rebuilded and or modified the P-51D's. I don't believe it's a Cavalier because of the time frame. Most P-51's were modified during the 60's not late 49 or early 50.
Also The People's Republic of China used or had captured 43-B-25H and 6-B-25J Bombers... 1-B-24J Liberator Bomber, 36-P-47N Fighters and 90 P-51 fighters... 42-C-46 Cargo planes.
Could the P-51H have been captured the same as the P-61's?
That is the information I am now looking into. Your sources are better than what I have.
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gi***ain Thank's for the Information.

SKIDRO_79FS
05-10-2004, 10:02 AM
woofiedog.
Contact Norm at the URL I gave concerning the P-51H restoration, he seems to know alot about those aircraft and might be able to guide you towards some folks who could help with your research. He's a good guy and very dedicated to the project of getting that Mustang back into some semblance of it's former glory.

http://server6.uploadit.org/files/SKIDRO-signatureimg.jpg
VICTORY BY VALOR, GENTLEMEN TO THE END

woofiedog
05-10-2004, 01:50 PM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gifThank You again SKIDRO_79FS! The P-51H is one of the Sweetest looking Aircraft of WW2. Even though it came into the war at the end and didn't see any action. The craft they are restoring will be a fine example of American Workmanship. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif
Thank's

SKIDRO_79FS
05-10-2004, 09:27 PM
I dug through my collection and found something you might like then, wolfiedog. It's an old North American postcard I picked up at an aviation memorabilia show years ago.

http://server6.uploadit.org/files/SKIDRO-p51h.jpg

http://server6.uploadit.org/files/SKIDRO-signatureimg.jpg
VICTORY BY VALOR, GENTLEMEN TO THE END

woofiedog
05-11-2004, 10:20 AM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gifThank's for the Post's SKIDRO_79FS and the P-51H picture. The link's and the postings have been helpful.
I found some other photos of the Bird they are restoring... plus some photos of the orginal ANG group from Massachusetts. What a beautiful Aircraft. Maybe we'll get one for IL-2. I'm not to good on the computer, so I can't post any photos... but maybe I can get a little help from my son??? If hes not too busy! YEH!
Again THANK"S http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif