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View Full Version : New "Defense Penetration" stat theory



kweassa1917
05-04-2017, 06:58 PM
I think what you guys should be keenly observing, is the concept of "defense penetration".

"Defense penetration" reminds us a lot of the "Armor Penetration" concept that exists in many MMORPG games. The basic premise is that in MMORPGs, some classes have very high damage resistances as mode of defense.

For example, you can have an attack doing 100 damage, and against a class that has 75% damage resistance, your 100 attack damage will be reduced down to only 25. But on the other hand, you can set your gear so you only have 45 damage... which seems like a poor choice. But if that set-up has "Armor Piercing" trait added to it, then it means the 75% damage resistance of your target doesn't work against you. So, even if you have lower maximum damage, the actual damage you do against very highly damage resistant targets is actually higher.


Now, this got me thinking. What WOULD "defense penetration" do in FH? Do we expect the same thing as AP attacks in MMORPGs? But look closely the new distribution of stats. There are total 3 slots for defense on armor pieces, and 3 slots for attack on weapon pieces. What "defense" does the new stat actually "penetrate"?



1. For one thing, damage resistance in FH isn't all too high in the first place. And in actual game mechanics, typically "penetration" stats only reach maximal efficiency against targets with really, really high defense. Against lightly defended targets, an AP attack is very lackluster, and it's generally a good idea to hit them with high maximum damage. But then, does this mean the 3 defense stats allocated to 3 armor pieces increase damage resistance upto huge levels like can be seen in MMORPG? I don't think so. I don't think they'll certainly make "tank gear" in FH, if you know what I mean.


2. Also, If we assume that investing into the new "damage penetration" will -- as a result -- give you higher damage when you hit a target... then this is counter-intuitive. Like mentioned in 1, it seems unlikely we'll be seeing stuff like 75~80% damage resistance like in MMORPGs. This means just investing into flat-out high maximum damage will bring you better results if you want to see higher damage. Besides, it also means we have two stats that effectively do the same thing -- which means whichever stat people find to be more useful for the task, people will use that, and dump the other. Depending on the efficiency, it means either the "Attack" or "the Defense Penetration" stat will be overlooked due to min/maxing.


3. Points 1 and 2 imply that the functionality of "defense penetration" must be different from the functionality of "attack". In other words, if you want to hit someone and do bigger damage as a result, you'll be using the "attack" stat, not the "defense penetration" stat.



Then, what in the world would "defense penetration" do? What type of damage resistance is there in FH that's so high, that a "defense penetration" stat would have a clear justification?

Then, it hit me. :D

Many games have the concept of "guard" or "block". But while it looks common, how it is actually implemented can be very different. Instinctively, we tend to think "block" as just immunity to damage by way of stopping attack. But when it comes to actually coding/programming the basic principle of block, it can be handled in a way that's exactly like you think, but it could also be implemented in a way that's totally different from what you think.[/b


This, is my theory,

"Block" in FH, might actually not be a state that refuses to register any damage, because you "blocked" the incoming attack. "Block" in FH, might actually be a form of VERY HIGH DAMAGE RESISTANCE (!!!) so the damage is registered, but the resulting total damage after calculation becomes almost none.

Suddenly, after thinking of this, it starts to make sense. :D Some games actually do use that kind of block mechanic.

We tend to think "block" is literally a "block". When someone swings a 100 damage attack, you "block" that and stop the attack from connecting on you, so that's why you receive 0 damage. We tend to think it like this because that's literally what it looks like.

But when it comes to actual mechanics and calculation behind that "visual illusion", it is entirely possible that what seems to look like a "Block", is just a bunch of visual animations, and the 100 damage attack on you is just registered normally. It's just that the final result of damage calculation becomes 0 -- because damage resistance at that moment is set to 100%


At this point, the pieces seem to fit together -- Defense Penetration, is most probably a revamped, better functioning BLOCK DAMAGE (=CHIP DAMAGE) !!![

Let's say someone swings a 100 damage attack on you, and you receive 10 block damage. Due to the "visual" illusion I've explained above, we tend to think that we register 0 damage from the attack, and then receive +10 damage as block damage. Because, also like said, it looks that way. But if my hunch is correct, then it's not +10 block damage you're actually receiving. It's that your block is reduced from 100% damage resistance, to 90% damage resistance, and therefore the initial incoming damage of 100 was reduced to 10....!

If this is the way how it works in FH, "defense penetration" is actually percentage-based damage resistance debuff.


Now, ultimately, this is my final theory.

Attack and Defense being divided into 3 pieces of gear each, means it's literally "33%" each. So, when you invest max defense in all 3 gear slots, your damage resistance will be 99% -- but not as flat-percentage subtraction damage reduction, but as multiplicative -- 100% defense means incoming damage is halved. Like wise, all 3 weapon pieces invested into "attack" will mean you have 100%(99%) higher damage = twice the normal damage.

Consider this example scenario:

You swing a 50 default damage attack. You have 100% attack, so this damage is doubled to 100. But the opponent has 100% defense, meaning that 100 damage is halved, so the final damage count is at 50 -- same as default. If that someone blocks your 100 damage attack (which is reduced to 50 due to his defense), the "block = 100% damage resistance" kicks in, and the damage gets reduced to 0.

- Your attack value = 100% = "double damage" = 50 damage attack is buffed to 100
- Opponent defense value = 100% = "half damage" = your buffed 100 attack, is reduced back down to 50
- Opponent blocks your 100→50 damage attack = "Block 100% damage resistance" = opponent receives 0 block damage


Now, let's suppose that of the 3 pieces, you sacrifice "attack " for "defense penetration". Now, you have 66% attack, 33% damage penetration, the opponent has 100% defense, and you swing a 50 damage attack.

- Your attack value = 66% = x1.66 damage" = 50 damage attack is buffed to 83
- Opponent defense value = 100% = "half damage" = your buffed 83 attack, is reduced down to 41.5
- Opponent blocks your 83→41.5 damage attack = "Block 100% damage resistance" MINUS your 33% "defense penetration" = 66% resistance = opponent receives 13.7 block damage



This, is my interpretation of the new "defense penetration" -- you sacrifice your direct inflicted damage, but in turn, gain much higher block damage...!

Karma_Ghost
05-04-2017, 07:37 PM
Attack and Defense being divided into 3 pieces of gear each, means it's literally "33%" each. So, when you invest max defense in all 3 gear slots, your damage resistance will be 99% -- but not as flat-percentage subtraction damage reduction, but as multiplicative -- 100% defense means incoming damage is halved. Like wise, all 3 weapon pieces invested into "attack" will mean you have 100%(99%) higher damage = twice the normal damage.


That's quite an assumption to make. It could be that each piece only gives 5%-10% at maximum value to stay in line with current max stat values. I doubt they'd let you have double damage with normal attacks when revenge only provides a 30% boost.

Weapon part 1 has both defense penetration and block damage. It's safe to assume that defense penetration does not grant higher block damage. Most likely, defense penetration just decreases the effectiveness of enemy defense. That is to say, it's probably functionally similar to the attack stat. It's probably scaled in a way that makes defense penetration more valuable against high defense targets and attack more valuable against low defense.

BananaBlighter
05-04-2017, 07:46 PM
I don't understand how this is any different to the 'block damage' stat, which is also on the same piece of gear.

Didn't they explain in the stream that the stat is simply a debuff to the opponent's defence stat? Essentially, it's like attack, except that it works more effectively against people who have higher defence, so it's supposed to be more useful for newer players. If this is really all it is, then I'm not all that pleased.

Maybe I misunderstood?

Gray360UK
05-04-2017, 08:00 PM
I don't understand how this is any different to the 'block damage' stat, which is also on the same piece of gear.

Didn't they explain in the stream that the stat is simply a debuff to the opponent's defence stat? Essentially, it's like attack, except that it works more effectively against people who have higher defence, so it's supposed to be more useful for newer players. If this is really all it is, then I'm not all that pleased.

Maybe I misunderstood?

Block damage relates solely to how much damage goes through a blocked attack.

Defence is how much damage you take the rest of the time, damage mitigation. How hard you are to kill. Defence Penetration as I understand it, is going to reduce the damage mitigation of your enemies Defence stat. So (to use completely made up figures) if I was going to hit you for 100 but your high Defence reduces that to 60, then if I had high Defence Penetration, I would do 70.

That's how I understood it anyway :)

DrExtrem
05-04-2017, 08:05 PM
How about, they fix the existing mechanics before adding new ones.

As usual, great appreciation for your work and mind games.

But first things first. Console and PC gameplay need to be streamlined and adjusted to remotely match. Incorporate console data to balance the game. Its disgraceful to ignore your biggest part of the playerbase. Acknowledge, that the def-meta is very limited on console and mostly a PC problem.

If all those adjustments are made, new mechanics to adjust the gameplay can be introduced.

BananaBlighter
05-04-2017, 11:01 PM
Block damage relates solely to how much damage goes through a blocked attack.

Defence is how much damage you take the rest of the time, damage mitigation. How hard you are to kill. Defence Penetration as I understand it, is going to reduce the damage mitigation of your enemies Defence stat. So (to use completely made up figures) if I was going to hit you for 100 but your high Defence reduces that to 60, then if I had high Defence Penetration, I would do 70.

That's how I understood it anyway :)

Yh that's what I thought, but what it seems the OP is suggesting is that it is in fact something very similar to block damage, essentially increasing your chip damage.

UbiNoty
05-05-2017, 12:18 AM
Very interesting theory! While I can neither confirm nor deny any of the ideas you've presented (as I myself am not privy to the exact details yet either), I think it's super cool that you took this view on the new changes to gear stats. We'll be able to see how much you were able to guess over the next 2 weeks! :D