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View Full Version : Flicker needs to go, immediatly



fedairkid
05-03-2017, 07:15 PM
Honestly there is no excuse for it to still be in the game.

It drastically lowers the quality of alot of fights( looking at you, warden pk orochi ) .
But whatīs even worse it that there are some players who made iut a skill to abuse it, i would call their flickerīs impressive, but that kind of ******baggery should not be supported with a term like that.

It will be funny to see how many "top" Players will suddenly really fall once it is fixed, which will hopefully happen soon ( seriously ubi, game has been out for a while now.)

CandleInTheDark
05-03-2017, 07:23 PM
Honestly there is no excuse for it to still be in the game.

It drastically lowers the quality of alot of fights( looking at you, warden pk orochi ) .
But whatīs even worse it that there are some players who made iut a skill to abuse it, i would call their flickerīs impressive, but that kind of ******baggery should not be supported with a term like that.

It will be funny to see how many "top" Players will suddenly really fall once it is fixed, which will hopefully happen soon ( seriously ubi, game has been out for a while now.)

Two of the last three dens they have said they are working on it, the first of which they said it will be part of a patch dealing also with the defensive meta.

Charmzzz
05-03-2017, 07:27 PM
Honestly I have no idea how to do it, maybe I do it occasionally by accident? Teach me how to flicker plz! :p

Yes, this should be fixed asap. Screws my plays totally to go vs a Warden / Orochi who only does 2 Moves: Top Light, Flicker-Zone...

ScottJund
05-03-2017, 07:35 PM
Honestly I have no idea how to do it, maybe I do it occasionally by accident? Teach me how to flicker plz! :p

Yes, this should be fixed asap. Screws my plays totally to go vs a Warden / Orochi who only does 2 Moves: Top Light, Flicker-Zone...

To be fair that's literally all Orochi can do. Once they fix Flicker he will be completely useless unless they buff something else.

Charmzzz
05-03-2017, 07:45 PM
To be fair that's literally all Orochi can do. Once they fix Flicker he will be completely useless unless they buff something else.

Same with PK man... But both can do Heavy feint, ZA or Lights to initiate.

ScottJund
05-03-2017, 07:52 PM
Same with PK man... But both can do Heavy feint, ZA or Lights to initiate.


There is a very key difference there - PK can do lightS with an S. Orochi can do Light, just one, from the top. PK has all three directions and a faster Zone with faster recovery than Orochi. They aren't even close.

Charmzzz
05-03-2017, 08:11 PM
Not even close, ok. Orochi only gets the 2nd Top Light guaranteed, has way better Deflect options and what, 3 frames difference on his ZA? Imo they are pretty close, GB gives Oro a guaranteed Top Heavy for example, PK does not get that. Makes a difference with Debuff Reduction, you know?

ScottJund
05-03-2017, 08:57 PM
Not even close, ok. Orochi only gets the 2nd Top Light guaranteed, has way better Deflect options and what, 3 frames difference on his ZA? Imo they are pretty close, GB gives Oro a guaranteed Top Heavy for example, PK does not get that. Makes a difference with Debuff Reduction, you know?

...

Alright let's break this down.


Orochi only gets the 2nd Top Light guaranteed

Warden also gets two confirmed hits, but yes, this is Orochi's signature boring attack and one of the few great things he has. Peacekeeper, however, has such a fast 2nd light that characters with slow guard / reflex block most always cannot block the second hit, basically making her Orochi but in every direction. Faster guard characters can negate this.


has way better Deflect options

I mean against an idiot that doesn't know how to roll or dodge attack, sure, Hurricane Blast is better. However, against people with brains, Wind Gust is the only guaranteed damage, and that only does 25. PK's Deflect does more, so it isn't better, its worse.


3 frames difference on his ZA? Imo they are pretty close

Measuring by frames is a bad idea due to variable framerates. Orochi's ZA is 500ms, PK's is 400ms, which is a massive difference. With Orochi, even if he flickers, the Zone Animation is extremely distinct and I can parry it fairly reliably. PK's Zone Attack has almost no windup and just sort of "happens", all while being faster, and being cancellable, with faster recovery. Its vastly better in every single way.


GB gives Oro a guaranteed Top Heavy for example

...and GB gives PK at the very minimum 42 damage, 7 more than the max GB punish from Orochi. That's not even counting double stab kick wallstun into forward r2, for over 60 damage.

Who cares about Debuff reduction, no one is basing balance off of Gear Stats.

CandleInTheDark
05-03-2017, 09:10 PM
...
Warden also gets two confirmed hits, but yes, this is Orochi's signature boring attack and one of the few great things he has. Peacekeeper, however, has such a fast 2nd light that characters with slow guard / reflex block most always cannot block the second hit, basically making her Orochi but in every direction. Faster guard characters can negate this.


With the nerf to light spam, doesn't the fact that PK's second light is almost guaranteed not bring her into line with the warden and orochi on that score? I never spammed lights to begin with but with the recovery frames on chain interrupt, her viable mixups from that point are either to evade an opponent's gb or light, feint the heavy (here I would give that her next set of lights come out quick after this but so long as she is eating the stamina loss then that is like everyone else that feints) or to finish her attack chain. Yes they can come from any direction while the warden's can come from two, but blocking the first light shuts that down same as everybody else.

Don't get me wrong, I was one of the pk mains saying the spam needed to be dealt with and made a lot of noise on that between the last two patches, I am also not someone who is now claiming she is trash tier, that is far from the truth, but at this point I do think it is time to look at raising the other heroes and seeing how the defensive meta changes planned change things rather than nerfing her further. The things that people complained about that made it so toxic were light spam (nerfed and rightly so) zone attack in revenge (nerfed) zone attack in general (fixed, making the indicator come twice as quickly is giving the same extra time to react as slowing it by half) and zone flicker (being fixed for everyone in a future patch). I know gb was off the charts bad in beta but that was nerfed also, at this point there isn't much more to nerf on her.

ScottJund
05-03-2017, 09:12 PM
With the nerf to light spam, doesn't the fact that PK's second light is almost guaranteed not bring her into line with the warden and orochi on that score?.

No, because she can do it from any direction. Orochi can only do it from one, and Warden's is slower, and also from only 2 directions.

Charmzzz
05-03-2017, 09:30 PM
...

Alright let's break this down.



Warden also gets two confirmed hits, but yes, this is Orochi's signature boring attack and one of the few great things he has. Peacekeeper, however, has such a fast 2nd light that characters with slow guard / reflex block most always cannot block the second hit, basically making her Orochi but in every direction. Faster guard characters can negate this.



I mean against an idiot that doesn't know how to roll or dodge attack, sure, Hurricane Blast is better. However, against people with brains, Wind Gust is the only guaranteed damage, and that only does 25. PK's Deflect does more, so it isn't better, its worse.



Measuring by frames is a bad idea due to variable framerates. Orochi's ZA is 500ms, PK's is 400ms, which is a massive difference. With Orochi, even if he flickers, the Zone Animation is extremely distinct and I can parry it fairly reliably. PK's Zone Attack has almost no windup and just sort of "happens", all while being faster, and being cancellable, with faster recovery. Its vastly better in every single way.



...and GB gives PK at the very minimum 42 damage, 7 more than the max GB punish from Orochi. That's not even counting double stab kick wallstun into forward r2, for over 60 damage.

Who cares about Debuff reduction, no one is basing balance off of Gear Stats.

Ok, so you want to tell me that a GUARANTEED second hit is NOT better than a chance to hit? It is fast, yes, but it is still blockable and parryable / deflectable. Your argumentation is lacking...

Next Deflect: Orochi has 3 Options basically off of a Deflect: Light, Heavy, GB. PK has 1. Who can play mindgames with 1? If Orochi manages to land 1-2 Deflect he probably gets a Heavy off after, which is massive Damage.

Ok, my POV is from PC, playing with 144hz Monitor and same with frames, you could be right on Console that it is a big difference. Can't feel it on PC. On 30 FPS it is 300ms - 400ms, so I can understand the problem with it. Better guard your right side I guess. ;)

So you don't want to take the "extra" Defense Stats against PK into the calculation? Really? In Duel, ok, you are right. It does more damage. But every other mode... I guess Ubi wont balance Characters for Duel, the main mode is Dominion.

ScottJund
05-03-2017, 09:43 PM
Ok, so you want to tell me that a GUARANTEED second hit is NOT better than a chance to hit? It is fast, yes, but it is still blockable and parryable / deflectable. Your argumentation is lacking...

Next Deflect: Orochi has 3 Options basically off of a Deflect: Light, Heavy, GB. PK has 1. Who can play mindgames with 1? If Orochi manages to land 1-2 Deflect he probably gets a Heavy off after, which is massive Damage.

Ok, my POV is from PC, playing with 144hz Monitor and same with frames, you could be right on Console that it is a big difference. Can't feel it on PC. On 30 FPS it is 300ms - 400ms, so I can understand the problem with it. Better guard your right side I guess. ;)

So you don't want to take the "extra" Defense Stats against PK into the calculation? Really? In Duel, ok, you are right. It does more damage. But every other mode... I guess Ubi wont balance Characters for Duel, the main mode is Dominion.

Let me preface this by saying I am talking about fighting at high level / tournament level play, so we may be talking in different mindsets here.

I would happily lose my guaranteed 2nd hit if it meant I could attack from more than one direction, yes, 100%. When you really only have one massive threat, a monkey can be trained to block it.

First off, Orochi doesn't get a Guard Break off of Deflect. The only way that could ever happen is if you Hurricane Blast, the opponent dodges once only for some reason, and then you guard break them in their dodge. This doesn't work on good players whatsoever. Hurricane Blast can be avoided by every single character in the game in an unpunishable fashion, and this is after you already hit a Deflect on them. So your only really viable option is Wind Gust, for 25 damage, which again, is less than Peacekeeper's Deflect. Orochi's Deflect is unique in that it is the only one in the game that can very easily in fact do zero damage. Regardless of all of this, parrying is better than Deflecting and every class can do that. You also don't "get a heavy off after" a Deflect actually hits someone, I don't know where you got that.

Millisecond-measured time has nothing to do with framerate. It doesn't vary between console and PC.

Rikuto01.tv
05-03-2017, 09:45 PM
Honestly I have no idea how to do it, maybe I do it occasionally by accident? Teach me how to flicker plz! :p

Yes, this should be fixed asap. Screws my plays totally to go vs a Warden / Orochi who only does 2 Moves: Top Light, Flicker-Zone...

And that exact reason is why it currently cannot go.

If they are only capable of landing one of two attacks, what happens when you remove the viability of one of them? There is no longer a guess, and nothing lands.

Charmzzz
05-03-2017, 09:56 PM
Let me preface this by saying I am talking about fighting at high level / tournament level play, so we may be talking in different mindsets here.

I would happily lose my guaranteed 2nd hit if it meant I could attack from more than one direction, yes, 100%. When you really only have one massive threat, a monkey can be trained to block it.

First off, Orochi doesn't get a Guard Break off of Deflect. The only way that could ever happen is if you Hurricane Blast, the opponent dodges once only for some reason, and then you guard break them in their dodge. This doesn't work on good players whatsoever. Hurricane Blast can be avoided by every single character in the game in an unpunishable fashion, and this is after you already hit a Deflect on them. So your only really viable option is Wind Gust, for 25 damage, which again, is less than Peacekeeper's Deflect. Orochi's Deflect is unique in that it is the only one in the game that can very easily in fact do zero damage. Regardless of all of this, parrying is better than Deflecting and every class can do that. You also don't "get a heavy off after" a Deflect actually hits someone, I don't know where you got that.

Millisecond-measured time has nothing to do with framerate. It doesn't vary between console and PC.

1. You get a Deflect. You can press - light, heavy, GB. If you use 1-2 times the Heavy after Deflect, what do you think your opponent will do next time? Correct, Dodge. So press GB after Deflect. Same as LB does now with Shove, goes for 1-2 Lights, then suddenly presses GB and grads the dodging guy.

2. Seriously? https://toolstud.io/video/framerate.php
You have more time to react on PC because your Monitor refreshes more often. That's why blocking PK Light Attack is not that big problem on PC...

Charmzzz
05-03-2017, 09:59 PM
And that exact reason is why it currently cannot go.

If they are only capable of landing one of two attacks, what happens when you remove the viability of one of them? There is no longer a guess, and nothing lands.

So Flicker should stay? Cant be serious... You maybe have to play mindgames with Heavy Feints? That's what I do on PK even... Flicker shows a WRONG indicator and has to be fixed. Buff Orochi after, I have no problem with that, but remove that bug!

ScottJund
05-03-2017, 10:02 PM
1. You get a Deflect. You can press - light, heavy, GB. If you use 1-2 times the Heavy after Deflect, what do you think your opponent will do next time? Correct, Dodge. So press GB after Deflect. Same as LB does now with Shove, goes for 1-2 Lights, then suddenly presses GB and grads the dodging guy.

2. Seriously? https://toolstud.io/video/framerate.php
You have more time to react on PC because your Monitor refreshes more often. That's why blocking PK Light Attack is not that big problem on PC...

1.) Again, all of this is completely countered by rolling backwards. No amount of mindgames stops an opponent from just..rolling backwards. You can even roll directly forwards and it will miss. Its stupidly easy to dodge.

2.) That's not what I meant. Milliseconds and frames are completely different measurements. You said PK's Zone is 300-400ms on console as if the duration of the animation is different on PC, which it isn't.

Charmzzz
05-03-2017, 10:13 PM
1.) Again, all of this is completely countered by rolling backwards. No amount of mindgames stops an opponent from just..rolling backwards. You can even roll directly forwards and it will miss. Its stupidly easy to dodge.

2.) That's not what I meant. Milliseconds and frames are completely different measurements. You said PK's Zone is 300-400ms on console as if the duration of the animation is different on PC, which it isn't.

1. Never saw that happen when I deflected into Light. Literally never. But good to know. Mostly people will be too surprised be the Deflect imo, it is really fast.

2. Misunderstood. The Animation is 9 Frames compared to 12 Frames. But depending on your FPS you have more or less time to react.

Rikuto01.tv
05-03-2017, 10:13 PM
1. You get a Deflect. You can press - light, heavy, GB. If you use 1-2 times the Heavy after Deflect, what do you think your opponent will do next time? Correct, Dodge. So press GB after Deflect. Same as LB does now with Shove, goes for 1-2 Lights, then suddenly presses GB and grads the dodging guy.

2. Seriously? https://toolstud.io/video/framerate.php
You have more time to react on PC because your Monitor refreshes more often. That's why blocking PK Light Attack is not that big problem on PC...


1. No one in their right mind is going to guess twice to get the same payout as guessing once.

2. Frame rate helps very slightly. The real problem is the intense input delay present on PS4 and Xbone hardware. Frame rate simply happens to be the most visible difference between PC and console versions so people love to blame it on that.

ScottJund
05-03-2017, 10:18 PM
1. Never saw that happen when I deflected into Light. Literally never. But good to know. Mostly people will be too surprised be the Deflect imo, it is really fast.

2. Misunderstood. The Animation is 9 Frames compared to 12 Frames. But depending on your FPS you have more or less time to react.

Uh you wanna show me proof that attacks are intentionally different durations from console to PC? Not different frames, actual physical time.

Its 12 frames @30 fps, or 0.4s.

Charmzzz
05-03-2017, 10:27 PM
Uh you wanna show me proof that attacks are intentionally different durations from console to PC? Not different frames, actual physical time.

Its 12 frames @30 fps, or 0.4s.

12 frames @30 fps = 0.4s
9 frames @30 fps = 0.3s

12 frames @60 fps = 0.2s
9 frames @60 fps = 0.15s

But that is not relevant. When the indicator shows + input lag + Monitor refresh rate + FPS, that combined is relevant. Have no data for that.

ScottJund
05-03-2017, 10:31 PM
12 frames @30 fps = 0.4s
9 frames @30 fps = 0.3s

12 frames @60 fps = 0.2s
9 frames @60 fps = 0.15s

But that is not relevant. When the indicator shows + input lag + Monitor refresh rate + FPS, that combined is relevant. Have no data for that.

...I know? You're just doing simple math. I don't know what you're actually trying to claim but its not something I'm even arguing against. What are you even saying is 9 frames?

Rikuto01.tv
05-03-2017, 10:31 PM
You're looking at around a 100 millisecond input delay before we even get into the subject of whether or not a visible frame is missing at the start of an animation, how much a lower frame rate effects the brain or whether most people are using TV's with additional input delay to compound that problem.

Really, the console hardware input delay is the big issue and people need to educate themselves about how god awful it is for fighting games. It's the primary reason that the console versions should be balanced differently than the PC versions. They are completely different games because of it.


You can forcibly cap the PC version at 30 fps and its still going to be way more responsive.

Charmzzz
05-03-2017, 10:40 PM
...I know? You're just doing simple math. I don't know what you're actually trying to claim but its not something I'm even arguing against. What are you even saying is 9 frames?

9 Frames is the Framecount of PK ZA Attack Animation. But what Rikuto-san says...

ScottJund
05-03-2017, 10:43 PM
9 Frames is the Framecount of PK ZA Attack Animation. But what Rikuto-san says...

But that's wrong... its 400ms which is 12f @30fps.

Charmzzz
05-03-2017, 10:47 PM
But that's wrong... its 400ms which is 12f @30fps.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gm5L19vZiEg

Not correct info? Do you have a table for all Animations? Would like to see it.

Rikuto01.tv
05-03-2017, 10:49 PM
I suppose I would just confuse the issue by mentioning the netcode also speeds up other players attack animations to compensate for connection quality in certain instances...

Yea, we should probably sidestep that....


Though in all likelihood that is most likely exactly why different people doing tests got different results.

UbiNoty
05-04-2017, 12:04 AM
We definitely have plans to address the flicker issue in a future update. Hopefully soon!

fedairkid
05-08-2017, 03:27 PM
i disagree.

he could certainly use another offensive tool, but remeber he is labeled as counter attacker, and when used like that riptide, stormrush and the rest of his moves suddenly work, really well




EDIT: this answer isnt supposed to be here, ignore it XD

fedairkid
05-08-2017, 03:31 PM
And that exact reason is why it currently cannot go.

If they are only capable of landing one of two attacks, what happens when you remove the viability of one of them? There is no longer a guess, and nothing lands.

BULL. Warden most certainly doesnt need the fliucker and will be beyond broken without it anyway. Orochi is actually pretty good imo, but he should be used a counter attacker ( you know, what he is labaled as?). if you play like that his kit is actually quite strong, but has a high skill ceiling ( which is great, but that is currently beeing overshadowed by the flicker, another reaosn it needs to go)

NickyNoNeko
05-09-2017, 01:25 AM
We definitely have plans to address the flicker issue in a future update. Hopefully soon!

Nice, so maybe you'll finally understand that Orochi with only one atk will be the worst char of the game with Kensei.
Can't wait for that and see his win ratio decreases so fast

Infidel.Castro
05-09-2017, 01:58 AM
12 frames @30 fps = 0.4s
9 frames @30 fps = 0.3s

12 frames @60 fps = 0.2s
9 frames @60 fps = 0.15s


I think you got the wrong end of the stick for this. An attack that is 0.4s at 30 fps will still be 0.4s at 60fps, the only difference is that at 30fps it will render it over 12 frames and at 60 it will render it over 24. If that is what you were suggesting.

Alustar.
05-09-2017, 02:18 AM
Has anyone else bothered to point out that you are arguing sheer quality of animation.

The end result will always be the same regardless of 30 or 60 frames a second as this all revolves around animation frames.

You are all arguing over the animations rendering smoother with more frames per second of the same hypothetical 4-6 second animation frames.

A breakdown:

So in reality if player 1 makes action 1 with stance A it will render this animation c4 over x seconds. That's where we get fps.

All more or less fps means is more or less frames involved in animation c4.

The value of c4's animation length will always be x seconds.

LastManGunning
05-09-2017, 03:17 AM
so many filthy try-hards on this thread. if you're unhappy with 0.4s, please do everyone a favor and go jump off a bridge.

CandleInTheDark
05-09-2017, 01:19 PM
BULL. Warden most certainly doesnt need the fliucker and will be beyond broken without it anyway. Orochi is actually pretty good imo, but he should be used a counter attacker ( you know, what he is labaled as?). if you play like that his kit is actually quite strong, but has a high skill ceiling ( which is great, but that is currently beeing overshadowed by the flicker, another reaosn it needs to go)

Yeah I've said that, a few times, with use of storm rush and riptide strike they have strong options. The mains, or the ones here, don't want to be a counter-attacker though, they want guaranteed safe damage and more openers.

Alustar.
05-09-2017, 02:30 PM
I'll be glad when people realize more frames per second isn't going to give you more seconds to react to things.

bmason1000
05-10-2017, 03:12 AM
I just ran in to my first real abusive zone flicker orochi. I'd seen people use it before, but not like this guy. It was a pretty terrible experience.

Rikuto01.tv
05-10-2017, 06:51 AM
We definitely have plans to address the flicker issue in a future update. Hopefully soon!

You can nerf my flicker when you give me a second attack that actually has the ability to land.

SnugglesIV
05-10-2017, 07:21 AM
And that exact reason is why it currently cannot go.

If they are only capable of landing one of two attacks, what happens when you remove the viability of one of them? There is no longer a guess, and nothing lands.

Or maybe, just maybe, you can BUFF or even REWORK Orochi so they have more options than top and zone? I know that might be a shocking concept, but if a character needs to rely on exploits to be slightly playable then they are fundamentally weak. Relying on exploits to balance characters is lazy and it does nothing to improve the situation for UP/boring characters.

kweassa1917
05-14-2017, 04:08 AM
You can nerf my flicker when you give me a second attack that actually has the ability to land.

Maybe try a class that doesn't have anything to abuse to help with your addiction to broken shi*?

Vordred
05-14-2017, 04:19 AM
they should just make it so when you do ZA it will change you to the correct Ward before the attack comes how, much like how if your in left ward and hit up and attack, the attack will be slower than if you were already in top ward, as it has to change ward before the attack comes out.

even simpler, just make it so if you try to ZA well in the wrong ward, the ZA just doesn't work and you just get a light or heavy.

Egotistic_Ez
05-14-2017, 04:26 AM
they should just make it so when you do ZA it will change you to the correct Ward before the attack comes how, much like how if your in left ward and hit up and attack, the attack will be slower than if you were already in top ward, as it has to change ward before the attack comes out.

Flicker is caused because you don't need to press the trigger and bumper at the same moment (a requirement since triggers have degrees of sensitivity). The game thinks you're pressing heavy but then needs to change to ZA when it registers the second press. Your above suggestion would do literally nothing.


even simpler, just make it so if you try to ZA well in the wrong ward, the ZA just doesn't work and you just get a light or heavy.

This would work, but I think it might feel a bit weird.

kweassa1917
05-14-2017, 06:38 AM
Flicker is caused because you don't need to press the trigger and bumper at the same moment (a requirement since triggers have degrees of sensitivity). The game thinks you're pressing heavy but then needs to change to ZA when it registers the second press. Your above suggestion would do literally nothing.

Not if the developers sort out the the indicator priorities, and ensure that the "final" attack input always displays corresponding attack direction -- as in, you try the "flicker" from the top position in to a side ZA, then it displays "top" but quickly changes to "side" without fail or glitchiness. The indicator should ALWAYs display the final command that went into action.

If that much is guaranteed, then the "forced stance change" suggestion (as I call it) works, and works well, it should.

I've put down simple calculations elsewhere, so to just summarize its anticipated effects, the 'forced stance change" suggestion will -- for example -- increase overall 'from-activation-to-hit' time of the Warden's ZA by 20%, and in turn allow classes with slower guard stance changes around 60% more time to react.

Knight_Raime
05-14-2017, 08:38 AM
Nice, so maybe you'll finally understand that Orochi with only one atk will be the worst char of the game with Kensei.
Can't wait for that and see his win ratio decreases so fast

Actually I highly disagree. Orochi's entire moveset is viable. His side lights are fast enough that if they were sped up at all they'ed be as fast as his zone. Top lights are used as a "go to" because of the damage. But if we're talking really top tier players even those top lights can be block/parried pretty easily if they are not thrown at the right time. Deflect into heavy deflect is good damage in itself and has mix ups. His storm rush can be used on a whiff punish and get you top light most of the time. I can go on. People refer to his zone and his top lights as his "only" moves because they are generally safe moves. but without mixing up your stuff and using feints those are still punished.

kensei's in a whole different ball park. The only workable move he has is helm splitter. all feint bait combos go there eventually. So you just have to really look for that. Orochi is a medium tier hero who IMO could break into top tier if his storm rush had more flexibility (either with more control over being able to cancel it whenever or allowing soft feints off of storm rush.)
Where as kensei isn't going to get better unless his dashes become safe on block or the defensive meta is nerfed properly.

Orochi's only flaw is that he's got no reliable way to open a turtle. Kensei's issues run far deeper than that. Really the only other hero in the game that's in a similar position to kensei is conq. and the only reason conq is higher up than him is because he's the king of defense.

kweassa1917
05-14-2017, 09:28 AM
Actually I highly disagree. Orochi's entire moveset is viable. His side lights are fast enough that if they were sped up at all they'ed be as fast as his zone. Top lights are used as a "go to" because of the damage. But if we're talking really top tier players even those top lights can be block/parried pretty easily if they are not thrown at the right time. Deflect into heavy deflect is good damage in itself and has mix ups. His storm rush can be used on a whiff punish and get you top light most of the time. I can go on. People refer to his zone and his top lights as his "only" moves because they are generally safe moves. but without mixing up your stuff and using feints those are still punished.

kensei's in a whole different ball park. The only workable move he has is helm splitter. all feint bait combos go there eventually. So you just have to really look for that. Orochi is a medium tier hero who IMO could break into top tier if his storm rush had more flexibility (either with more control over being able to cancel it whenever or allowing soft feints off of storm rush.)
Where as kensei isn't going to get better unless his dashes become safe on block or the defensive meta is nerfed properly.

Orochi's only flaw is that he's got no reliable way to open a turtle. Kensei's issues run far deeper than that. Really the only other hero in the game that's in a similar position to kensei is conq. and the only reason conq is higher up than him is because he's the king of defense.

Generally agree. The reason many refer to Orochi as only having toplight/ZA, is basically that's the only move even beginners can reliably replicate without being punished really hard after failing. That usually leads to a serious self-imposed restriction on the Orochi for most average players -- since they probably use only those two moves upto like rep5, how would they ever know how the other skills are to be used?

Compared to the Berserker and the PK, like it or not, Orochi's moveset basically implies it's a technical counter fighter style and a risk-taker -- meaning a lot of technical moves that require hefty amounts of experience to be used in correct anticipation of enemy attacks.

People say the Lawb's a counter style but that's not what you really call a "counter". For the Lawb, the term "counter means simply reactionary move -- whereas for the Orochi, the term "counter" applies in the way a real fighter uses it -- to make use of all the skills other than toplight/ZA spam, an Orochi player needs to anticipate the incoming attack to straight-counter it as a boxer would throw a cross-counter punch.

That's why most Orochi players never get past a certain level. They never take risks, so they never use anything else than the toplight/ZA spam... and since that's a really easy, efficient, cheap 50/50, you can literally use just 3 moves -- toplight, ZA, GB-topheavy... and that's often enough to get you easy victories against most PUG matchups in game... but once they start going over that level, and start meeting people who consistently block toplight/ZA ... those Orochi players literally got nothing left. They become like a Kensei with a shorter sword. Since they've never experimented or practiced using other attack moves, they never really get over the obsession of using only "safe and easy" attacks -- so they basically shut off like 80% of their own movesets by themselves, and then come to these forums and complain Orochis are weak.


No one denies that Orochi is not as good as WD/WL level. But it's still plenty possible to get upto PK level IMO. At least, from some Orochis I've met, they're equall- if not more -- threatening as the PK.