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Jezzadog
03-31-2004, 06:01 PM
Apparently I'm what's known as a "noobie" or "noob" or whatever. I don't know much about computers or PC flight sims (but have plenty of flight experience - albeit a looonnnng time ago)

I've got lots of questions but (unlike other noobies) I'm sure as hell not going to apologise for asking any of them. Seems there's a wealth of knowledge out there with educated people prepared to put in time and effort to inform the rest of us.

Now to my question: What do force feedback sticks do for us? Are flight control forces modelled in FB and similar sims and sent to the stick (eg does the stick "stiffen up" as airspeed increases, do fighters have lighter stick forces than heavy bombers etc) OR is the force feedback only to provide "effects" such as buffet at the stall, firing guns, taking hits (my specialty!) etc.

If FF are for 'effects' only; do they significantly add to flight sim realism? Seems to me that the combination control forces and displacement is more important than a bit of buffet and shock.

"The mark of a true combat pilot is that he can throw his aircraft at the ground - and miss"

Jezzadog
03-31-2004, 06:01 PM
Apparently I'm what's known as a "noobie" or "noob" or whatever. I don't know much about computers or PC flight sims (but have plenty of flight experience - albeit a looonnnng time ago)

I've got lots of questions but (unlike other noobies) I'm sure as hell not going to apologise for asking any of them. Seems there's a wealth of knowledge out there with educated people prepared to put in time and effort to inform the rest of us.

Now to my question: What do force feedback sticks do for us? Are flight control forces modelled in FB and similar sims and sent to the stick (eg does the stick "stiffen up" as airspeed increases, do fighters have lighter stick forces than heavy bombers etc) OR is the force feedback only to provide "effects" such as buffet at the stall, firing guns, taking hits (my specialty!) etc.

If FF are for 'effects' only; do they significantly add to flight sim realism? Seems to me that the combination control forces and displacement is more important than a bit of buffet and shock.

"The mark of a true combat pilot is that he can throw his aircraft at the ground - and miss"

MarkGos
03-31-2004, 08:57 PM
Jezzadog,

Firstly welcome to the madhouse! There are plently of skilled/knowledgable people in the community (and a few nutters http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif) You'll find you have to take the good with the bad. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

The answer to your question is both. A FF stick will stiffen up to simulate forces from the control surfaces and also give you srike effects etc. FF adds so much to the experience. It helps with riding the edge of a stall along with giving you tactile feedback from the plane.

IMO FF is the only way to go

The propellor is there to keep the pilot cool. Switch it off and watch them sweat!

Regards
Gos from Oz

Bearcat99
03-31-2004, 09:39 PM
Im with Mark....... you will notice a difference in say.... a Yak and an IL2.... or an IL2 and an HE-111... just stick forces. In my opinion aHOTAS is the best way to enjoy this sim.... as far as immersion goes anyway... Hands On Throttle And Stick setup. There arent unfortunately no FFB HOTAS on the market yet however I saw something from Japan where they had are you ready for this.... a FFB X45..... I use a MSFFB stick and a regular X45... works great for me. Welcome aboard.

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LC34
03-31-2004, 10:23 PM
Yep these two hit it right on the nose. I also wouldnt go with a stick that didnt have FF. I played EAW with an old MS wingman stick that didnt have FF and once I got FB I got a new stick with FF. Would never go back even if my new stick broke. Just adds so much not just in immersion but it lets you know when your riding your plane right on the edge of its performances.

And when flying a fighter, right on the edge is exactly where you want to be.

Udidtoo
03-31-2004, 11:01 PM
Bearcat, you got a link to that FFB X45 story. Even if they don't deliver I can always dream.

Jezz, give FFB a try. You won't want to fly without it. Lots of MSFFB II's still on Ebay

..............................
I always have just enough fuel to arrive at the scene of my crash.

ELEM
04-01-2004, 12:06 AM
The most important thing is that they give you notice of the onset of the stall, so you can fly the a/c closer to it's limits. Never fly without FF, fly the Saitek 3D FF.

I wouldn't join any club that would have ME as member!

http://img35.photobucket.com/albums/v107/Elem_Klimov/I-16_desktop.jpg

lindyman
04-01-2004, 12:42 AM
Yup, FF is the way to go. FB models both control surface forces and effects. The former are inevitable for good flying, since with it you can make a rough estimate of your speed and stall margin by the feel of the stick. The latter are mostly annoying (I think.)

A word of caution, though. If you're shopping for a stick, be careful with what you buy. I had, until only a few days ago, a Logitech Wingman extreme 3D FF, and it's a pile of junk. Lousy pots giving spikes, low resolution giving low precision, crappy geared DC engines instead of stepping motors for forces, giving very weird force effects near center. I hear the MSFF2 sticks are good, if you can find one. I know the Saitek Cyborg 3D FF are good, but they too are difficult to find.
_
/Bjorn.

Jezzadog
04-01-2004, 01:42 AM
Thanks guys, looks like I'm missing out on too much without a FFB stick.

Will take onboard all your recommendations; do some research and then take the plunge.

Thanks again,

Jezzadog (the dog from Oz)

"If the wings are travelling faster than the fuselage, it's probably a helicopter - and therefore, unsafe"

Haele
04-01-2004, 04:59 AM
Force Feedback HOTAS:

http://us.thrustmaster.com/products/lookproduct.php3?skin=Joysticks&productid=71

(not many buttons, but I can vouch for the quality)

blairgowrie
04-01-2004, 06:20 AM
I have often wondered if FF wears out a stick faster, especially firing heavy cannon. I have a MSFFB plus a spare and sometimes fly with FF turned off, in the hope that it will prolong the life of the stick.

Any opinions?

http://img14.photobucket.com/albums/v41/blairgowrie/FBWebpage.jpg

ELEM
04-01-2004, 08:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by blairgowrie:
I have often wondered if FF wears out a stick faster, especially firing heavy cannon. I have a MSFFB plus a spare and sometimes fly with FF turned off, in the hope that it will prolong the life of the stick.

Any opinions?

http://img14.photobucket.com/albums/v41/blairgowrie/FBWebpage.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've been using my Saitek 3D FF for 4 years on IL-2 almost every night. Never had the slightest problem, still feels good for 4 more years!

I wouldn't join any club that would have ME as member!

http://img35.photobucket.com/albums/v107/Elem_Klimov/I-16_desktop.jpg

blairgowrie
04-01-2004, 09:05 AM
Thanks Elem. Maybe I was being overly cautious. I must admit it is more enjoyable with FF on.

http://img14.photobucket.com/albums/v41/blairgowrie/FBWebpage.jpg

lil_labbit
04-01-2004, 09:13 AM
You did good blairgowrie - the MSFFB is no longer produced - so you got backup LOL.

If it's a USB stick - you can also use 2 sticks (even more) - and use the buttons for extra commands.

I'm using Saitek X45 Hotas and a Saitek cyborg evo now - I had a FFB Wingman Strike Force 3D stick before (never gonne buy Logitech again http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gifit had no center).

FFB gives a more "immersive" feeling though - its nice to feel the runway and the buffeting before a stall, the kickback of the guns firing etc etc...

http://members.home.nl/lil.labbit/lilseesya.jpg
Night is better than Day

blairgowrie
04-01-2004, 10:19 AM
Yes, I snapped up the last one in the store here as soon as I heard Microsoft was getting out of the business. I am really surprised they didn't sell the business to someone else since it is such a good stick.

I hadn't thought of using the spare stick for other functions, but that is a good idea. Thanks.

http://img14.photobucket.com/albums/v41/blairgowrie/FBWebpage.jpg

AirBot
04-01-2004, 10:29 AM
I don't know why so many people are complaining about Logitech sticks. I've had my Wingman Force 3D for several years now, and it has never given me too much trouble. Plus, it's real cheap and is the only FFB stick that will actually fit on my desktop.

On topic: I'd say FFB adds a whole new dimension to this sim. It's very useful for feeling when you're nearing the limits of your aircraft. The only problem is the recoil effects, which can ruin you aim and cannot be turned down without also reducing stall buffeting effects.