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SixKeys
04-29-2017, 09:21 PM
Like the title says. In your opinion, which combat system has been the best in the series and why?
What features would you like to return or not to return in future titles (e.g. unarmed combat, medicine, guns)?
If you think there are games AC could learn a few things from, what makes those games' combat better for you?
Which fights have been the most memorable in the series (whether good or bad)? What did you like about them/what would you have improved?

ERICATHERINE
04-29-2017, 09:28 PM
I would like the counter-kill to return. I know this would make the combat way more easier, but I still miss those awesome finishing move.

I would also like the possibility to fight, using hidden blades to return. ^-^

crusader_prophet
04-29-2017, 09:48 PM
Remove counter kills - they are too easy.
Introduce timed parry and dodging to avoid damage but not inflict damage.
Introduce prolonged parries (should depend on player’s stats – like stamina, weight of weapon – and input like timing, button combos) and make attacks proportional to player and game progression and enemy levels/types.
Add Block mechanic to avoid damage for lower level enemies, make the block resistance proportional to the physics and level of the weapon and enemy
Add Jump, Slide, Roll, Dodge, vault/flips during combat and create combos/special attacks if player attacks the enemy during the animations
Retain kidnap, non-lethal takedown
Retain the combined combat (secondary weapon and primary weapon combinations) such as the fancy moves perk in AC:Syndicate
separate kicks, punches, stuns (using weapons) as individual combat inputs as offensive perks
Retain multi-finishers - but require more player skill than just getting lucky because of a nearby AI enemy.
Re-introduce tactical bomb crafting and this time make use of them, by making enemies immune to the types of bomb except their weakness
Player shouldn’t be able to leave a pile of bodies single-handedly on the street regardless of the level of enemies. If surrounded by more than 2 - 3 challenging enemies, player’s options should be vanishing, running, social stealth, use environment and tools to it’s advantage as a true assassin would or call for help.
Pertaining to above bullet, the awareness level system should make a comeback but more refined. There should be bounties out on the assassin or templar for notoriety. Should not be just as simple as eliminating another AI walking with bunch of guards unaware of my presence around them. If I am notorious in the city, the hitman sent out to take me out should be aware of my presence and not just a random guard walking around. Hence it should take more stealth skills and tricks for me to be able to get close to the official/hitman and assassinate the guard and be able to reduce notoriety level and then be able to walk incognito again among general crowd.

LoyalACFan
04-30-2017, 12:03 PM
AC1 and ACU had the most promise, but objectively, I don't think this series has ever had an exemplary combat system. Just some random thoughts about it...

-I really liked AC1's approach of giving you essentially three permanent weapon classes; sword (strong defense, medium damage, weak counter), short blade (medium defense, strong damage, medium counter) and hidden blade (no defense, no offense, strong counter). It was a pretty elegant way of letting you tailor your own combat style; the only problem was that you could literally just turtle up and let each enemy run one at a time into your counter-attack (remember, AC1 and 2 didn't give you a kill on every counter) and just rinse and repeat until everyone was dead. Which brings me to my next point...

-The biggest problem with AC's combat (and arguably one of the series' biggest problems, full-stop) is the enemy AI itself. You can have the most awesome combat system in the world, and it would mean nothing if the enemies just attack one by one with a single easily blocked attack. Enemies need to have different attack types (which Unity sort of touched on but never fully realized) and attack in twos and threes fairly regularly. The slow pace of AC's combat really sort of kills it. The killstreaks of ACB-AC4 solved that problem, but at the expense of any semblance of challenge.

-I DO NOT want the combat to be anything like Batman: Arkham's, but... they really could learn some things from that series. Most importantly, the wide variety of enemy attack types, and the fact that Batman can learn an elegant solution to respond to any one of them. Contrary to popular perception, in the Arkham games, you don't just hit one button to block every kind of attack and one button to attack every enemy archetype. You can learn skills to counter blades, punch through armor, destroy shields, grab and yank enemies with ranged weapons from their hiding spots on the sidelines, and more. And none of those skills are passive; they all require a unique button input to pull off. Like I said, I don't want AC combat to be AT ALL like Arkham's, but I would grealy prefer learning skills and new moves to counter new threats, rather than just buying new swords to kill arbitrarily higher-ranked goons. Like, for example, in Unity, what do you do when a gunner shows up outside your combat range? You either spam your ranged weapons (which rarely work in that game since the enemies can roll-dodge) or break your combat sequence, run over to him, and initiate a new fight. That's lame. Why not a non-contextual human shield move where you could grab an enemy in combat for a few seconds, so you could get a small window of Splinter-Cell-style free-aim while holding him to huck a throwing knife at the shooter without breaking combat.

-Enemy levels suck. If the developers want to keep us out of certain zones until later in the game, I honestly prefer the huge white Animus walls to being swarmed by grunts who can each take 50 hits without dying. It's not skill-based at that point, it's just a grind to unlock higher-level gear. That's OK in true RPG's, but AC has never had enough meaty side content to make that kind of grind feel gratifying. I much prefer having enemy archetypes that require different strategies to fight. Honestly, Revelations did this better than any other AC game, with enemy archetypes that had distinct weaknesses and immunities (even though it did a poor job of conveying what they were to the player).

Sushiglutton
04-30-2017, 12:19 PM
I think you need a somewhat greater set of moves and more varied enemies/attacks. I just don't see a way around that if you wanna make combat more interesting. The Witcher 3 has some neat idea, even though the execution isn't perfect. For instance TW3 has 3 defensive moves (roll, hold to defend and tap to counter). Then you could have light, heavy and stun as basic attacks. And then follow ups for the different moves as well so the system branches and there's some depth. Enviromental takedowns in Arkham Knight was a pretty neat idea, even though I didn't really like the visual presentation of take down opportunities.


I dunno, I kind of feel like I have been away from the series a bit long. I also think that a great combat system isn't just based on a couple of ideas, it takes a ton of tuning to make everything feel smooth (or so I would guess).

LoyalACFan
04-30-2017, 12:28 PM
I dunno, I kind of feel like I have been away from the series a bit long. I also think that a great combat system isn't just based on a couple of ideas, it takes a ton of tuning to make everything feel smooth (or so I would guess).

Oh yeah, game balancing is a hard, slow and torturous process. I've had only a small bit of experience working on that sort of thing (most of my game-making experience is with narrative-based walking sims, lel) but it's honestly the most frustrating part of game development that I've had a hand in. Still, it helps to brainstorm the broad strokes. Like, in Syndicate, no amount of fine-tuning would make me like the combat system. I'm just conceptually opposed to the whole foundation of that style of combat for AC.

m4r-k7
04-30-2017, 01:10 PM
Use AC 1's combat system as the basis but provide more options (kind of like what AC 2 did)

The earlier combat systems were much more tailored to the social stealth approach the series started with. Your main move was simply defending and countering - but your light and heavy attacks could build small combo's, the animations were great and not over the top, the player actually felt the impact of the sword strikes with enemies trying to defend themselves.

AC 2 did build on AC 1 in a substantial way, giving us more freedom in combat than we have had in ages (different weapons, disarming, poison, hand to hand combat, hidden gun, throwing knives etc).

Unity tried to give us harder combat for the first time in ages, but at the expense of so many features.

Personally, I want a combat system that is similar to AC 1 where defence is priority, but where you can have sword on sword fights, where you feel the impact of the battle. If they are going for The Witcher 3 feel I would be happy as human to human combat on that game was awesome - although please please Empire do not limit us to who we can fight depending on our level as this makes no sense whatsoever (i.e. having a level 1 sword should allow us to kill a standard level 50 guard without having to strike at him 10000 times!)

P.S its crazy how limited the combat was on Syndicate - we had more options in a game that is 8 years old.

BananaBlighter
04-30-2017, 07:05 PM
I've thought about this a lot, so here are some ideas for my ideal combat system:

- In terms of blocking I would like something similar to Unity, where simply blocking an attack does not reward you in any way, but you can press block at the last moment to parry, temporarily staggering the opponent rather than killing them outright.

- I'd also like to see more variety with the player's options, so I think that when an opponent is in this staggered state after a parry, you should be able to (a) disarm them, (b) grab them as a human shield, or (c) push them into a wall or another enemy (if either are nearby). When this happens, they become stunned, and you can then use a finisher. If they are thrown into an opponent, both will be stunned and you can perform a multi-finisher. I also want to point out that the 'stagger' state after a parry is different to the 'stunned' state you get by throwing enemies into objects.

- When grabbing an enemy as a human shield, you can: use them to defend against projectiles; throw them off a ledge or into an enemy for a multi-finisher; or simply slit their throat to quickly eliminate them. Eventually they can escape your grip however, so you can't hold onto them forever.

- I also really enjoyed AC1's combo kills, where if you pressed attack again just as your hit landed, you would instantly initiate a cool finisher. The nice thing about this was that it allowed you to go on the offensive rather than sit and wait for counter kills, while also not simply being a button-mashing simulator like Syndicate. Maybe if you press attack just as your hit lands, you stagger the opponent just as a parry would, and then can continue on from there by disarming them, pushing them etc...

- I would also like to see something similar to the kill-streaks we had in ACB-ACRo, but less OP. A kill-streak still starts after you get a kill, however it does no allow you to simply jump from enemy to enemy and wipe them all out in one sweep. When in a kill-streak, regular attacks will simply stagger, however the combo-attacks I just talked about, will kill rather than stagger.

- I would also like the return of counter-kills, since they add a sense of flow and 'awesome factor'. However, the problem with counter-kills in previous games was that they were too easy to pull off. All we need to fix this is make them much harder to do. My idea is that if you parry during a kill-streak, then you will perform an instant counter-kill. Also bring back multi-counters. They rarely occur, so it doesn't really change the difficulty in any way, but when they do it is very satisfying.

- A big part of it is also enemy archetypes and AI, so I would also like to see a greater variety of enemies with more aggressive behaviour. Maybe for example, some enemies will break out of human-shield grabs easily, while others have much smaller parry windows on their attacks. Maybe some will parry your attacks unless you combo-attack, and throw you into walls after staggering you. Maybe some enemies can infinitely chain attacks even as you block them, and the chain only stops when you achieve a parry.

To sum up the essential stuff:
• Moves like combo-attacks (from AC1) and parries (from Unity) stagger opponents briefly.
• When an enemy is staggered they can be disarmed, grabbed as a human shield, or pushed into objects, stunning them.
• Stunned enemies can be instantly killed with finishers.
• In a kill streak, blocks and attacks stagger the opponent, whereas moves that would normally stagger (combo-attacks and parries) auto-kill.

With this system, I think you can strike a good balance between difficulty and variety. It takes a combination of Unity's and AC1's system as a base, and adds elements from the other games, like counter-kills and kill-streaks, but nerfing them to create an 'awesome factor' while maintaining a relatively high difficulty.

Sorrosyss
04-30-2017, 09:06 PM
AC Brotherhood - hands down the best combat system. I miss the counter kills, and going into chained multi kills. Yes it was easy, but it always looked awesome and in my mind really cemented you as the superb hand to hand combatant you would expect an Assassin to be.

I'd really like to see the Hidden Blade combat return as well. It was always my favoured, especially with the Wolverine inspired executions.

I think Syndicate took the combat in a better direction, and it was certainly inspired by the Arkham Batman games. Not a bad thing to aspire to be. In my view the combat system needs to be sped up, no more of the prancing around in a circle waiting for each NPC to have a swing at you in tandem. It was never particularly interesting, and challenging yourself to just parry attacks is hardly fun either. An Assassin wants to get out of the location fast, and back to the rooftops. Anything to expediate the process is a good thing, especially as combat has never really been an area that the series has excelled at.

D.I.D.
05-01-2017, 12:47 AM
I'd move away from combat, really. Few open world games really do hand-to-hand combat well, and the ones that do achieve it by turning the player-character into a whirling death machine. I don't think it's appropriate for this kind of game.

Of the AC systems so far, Unity's was the most interesting to me because it was the one most likely to echo the way violence goes in Dishonored. You can expect to hack down guards one-to-one in Dishonored, but groups will be more of a problem (at least on harder difficulty settings). Even killing one guard leaves you with an issue afterwards, because you don't want to leave a body where it will be found so you either have to clean up after yourself or deal with the consequences of walking away from a murder. Things can quickly get out of control in the wrong environment (guards evenly spread everywhere through the level, all within earshot of each other). You certainly can play Dishonored in full Blades Of Death mode if you're good enough, but for most people they end up playing it like an assassin: using quiet projectiles unseen in the shadows, sneaking past enemies, using non-lethal melee and ranged attacks if possible.

The Arkham series had street combat which I liked for Batman but wouldn't like for AC. However - the Predator rooms were great (especially in Arkham Origins - one of the few areas that justified the game). You had to play it smart, and to win you'd be constantly swooping in, removing another guard from play and then disappearing to a new hiding place. They responded to your success by becoming more dangerous themselves.

But does combat necessarily need to be people hitting each other until one is defeated? I've sometimes wondered if there isn't a way to do something more interesting with a different take on combat, where (instead of trying to land blows on the opponent) you simply dodge their strikes. If you think about martial arts films, an awful lot of the best fight scenes don't end up with everyone except the hero dead or injured -- the hero dodges loads of attacks and gets past his/her enemies. They bring down barriers behind them to cut off their enemies' paths when necessary. You could have the assassin do this by having environmental hazards that you can pull down, and maybe a few carried items that can be deployed in doors and gates (imagine an iron device that you bang into a door lock and twist, thus making the door permanently locked).

One of my favourite new games this year is Snake Pass, because it has a unique control system. With combinations of buttons, sticks and triggers, you guide a snake and wind it around poles, tightening and slackening your coils, and using physics to your advantage. I'd love it if there was a way to enter and exit slow-motion when getting into melee combat range, and you'd have to guide a path around the opponents' swinging weapons. Get it right, and the assassin's body follows an acrobatic path, twisting her shoulders to duck under one blade and backflip past another. To add a layer of skill for those with the best co-ordination, opportunities would arrive in the path to stab at the opponents during the dodge (maybe the dodge path with the left analogue stick and the offensive opportunities guided by the right stick). Once clear of melee range, time would curve back into normal speed giving you the opportunity to prepare to run or to re-engage with the dodge system.

So I'd be imagining a game where you can take out enemies if you catch them unaware from behind, or if you pick them off with a ranged weapon, but melee combat would be mostly about outmanoeuvring the enemy to get past them, running, and pulling over a market stall or a bookshelf or jamming a door shut to prevent them following you. The very best players would be able to turn the dodging play into kill opportunities, but it would involve pretty keen coordination skills. Guards would react aggressively to losses on their side, and become much more attentive to your likely hiding spots: rafters, high ledges, rooftops.

Megas_Doux
05-01-2017, 12:52 AM
AC Brotherhood - hands down the best combat system. I miss the counter kills, and going into chained multi kills. Yes it was easy, but it always looked awesome and in my mind really cemented you as the superb hand to hand combatant you would expect an Assassin to be.

.


And there you lost me for I HATE "combat" in that game...

I would choose Unity`s combat by a HUGE margin, not even close. It's in the only game in the franchise in which you can die. Of course I would add tons of features and variety.

LoyalACFan
05-01-2017, 01:34 AM
Forgot to mention this earlier- I actually do like counter-kills, but they need to be seriously re-nerfed, maybe by making it hidden-blade only? AC1 balanced it pretty well by making it "do or die;" you can't block attacks with the hidden blade, so you either get an instant kill with perfect timing, or you screw it up and take massive damage.

Megas_Doux
05-01-2017, 03:33 AM
I don't know man....

Looking for a realistic approach in a video game franchise is dumb, I know. However being able to parry a HUGE axe with a hidden blade, well....Never a fan, being honest.

LoyalACFan
05-01-2017, 08:32 AM
I don't know man....

Looking for a realistic approach in a video game franchise is dumb, I know. However being able to parry a HUGE axe with a hidden blade, well....Never a fan, being honest.

In AC1-Rev you don't really parry with the hidden blade, though (barring that one move where Ezio crosses his blades in front of his face to block, stabs the attacker in the throat). You just sort of sidestep the attack and stab the guy while he's indisposed. But yes, it was pretty stupid that Connor could block axe swings with his pivot blade in AC3

BananaBlighter
05-01-2017, 11:11 AM
Forgot to mention this earlier- I actually do like counter-kills, but they need to be seriously re-nerfed, maybe by making it hidden-blade only? AC1 balanced it pretty well by making it "do or die;" you can't block attacks with the hidden blade, so you either get an instant kill with perfect timing, or you screw it up and take massive damage.

I would actually really like to see a combat system that uses only the hidden-blade with occasional disarms for greater weapon variety. And yes, I also want counter-kills to return, but they need to be a lot harder to do.

I've been playing a lot of For Honor recently, and in that game all the assassin classes have this ability called 'deflect'. It is essentially a counter-attacking move whereby you dodge INTO the direction of the attack just as it is about to land. It is incredibly risky, more so than parrying. Going too early or too late mean you will get hit, and the window to do it is very small.

Maybe AC could use something similar. If you dodge into the attacker just as their hit is about to connect, you will do an AC1-style counter-attack where you dodge out of the way and insta-kill the enemy with your hidden blade.

marvelfannumber
05-01-2017, 12:41 PM
And there you lost me for I HATE "combat" in that game...

I would choose Unity`s combat by a HUGE margin, not even close. It's in the only game in the franchise in which you can die. Of course I would add tons of features and variety.
Agreed 100%, the combat in Brotherhood is absolutely horrid, I hope they never go that direction again.

Not only is it impossibile to die (no seriously, if you just stand still and let yourself get hit, you regenerate before you can die), but it's way too simple and casual (even by AC standards). Different enemy types are pointless because the kick negates any type of defense they have, auto kills after counters pretty much makes the game play itself with the most minumum "challenge" possibile. It's just a terrible combat system. Here's hoping Ubisoft build the next games combat system off of Unity's, adding more features while retaining the balance.

Here's how I see it so far:
AC1 combat: Decent, but counters break the game and like the rest of the game, there's a huge lack of variety.
AC2 combat: Incredibely stale, tedious and button-mash heavy.
ACB "Combat": Horrid
ACR "Combat": The same as Brotherhood but with very slight variety added.
AC3 combat: Improvement over the Ezio ganes, but still far too easy. Animations are smooth, but the combat is stale.
AC4 combat: The same as AC3 but with worse animations.
ACU combat: Absolutely a step in the right direction, only major problem I have is that several useful features like throwing and different primary weapons (melee, hidden blades) were removed.
ACS combat: What were they even thinking? Animations look terrible, the button mash is constant and the counters are back, but even easier than before. Probably the worst combat system since Brotherhood if you ask me.

cawatrooper9
05-01-2017, 02:38 PM
Well, here's my 2 cents:

Melee Combat- To me, the most enjoyable melee combat in the series is probably AC1 and Unity. They're difficult, but doable. AC2's is probably the worst, in my opinion. So many fights are broken down to simply whatcking a brute with your sword until you finally score a hit. It can be a bit cringey at times.

Ranged Combat- Basically, anything after and including AC4 has done ranged combat best (with Unity maybe being the weakest) . I like having the Assassin aim with you. Ranged like in Brotherhood felt a bit strangely mapped on the controller, and having Connor not even aim at his target until shooting just felt awful to control.

Gadgets- Maybe not technically combat, but I think the Ezio trilogy (particularly Revelations) handled gadgets the best, with the wheel that paused the game. It was just enough of a pause to make it easy to select what you wanted even in the heat of combat, but not enough to completely take you out of the game through a slow odyssey of menus (here's looking at you again, ACIII).

"Other" combat- Basically, any other non-regular combat that was innovative enough. Honestly, I'd say Rogue's ship stuff. Personally, I prefer Black Flag's ships, but there were certain elements of Rogue that I think make it better for this category. While I actually liked the barrels better than the burning oil, and the machine guns seemed a bit silly, I think that the ability to be boarded by enemies was a step in the right direction. Everything else (ice ram, machine guns, burning oil, etc) was gimmicky, but at least they expanded a little on the formula. Still think Ubi needs to do a naval game (AC or not) again at some point.

Megas_Doux
05-06-2017, 06:37 PM
Agreed 100%, the combat in Brotherhood is absolutely horrid, I hope they never go that direction again.

Not only is it impossibile to die (no seriously, if you just stand still and let yourself get hit, you regenerate before you can die), but it's way too simple and casual (even by AC standards). Different enemy types are pointless because the kick negates any type of defense they have, auto kills after counters pretty much makes the game play itself with the most minumum "challenge" possibile. It's just a terrible combat system. Here's hoping Ubisoft build the next games combat system off of Unity's, adding more features while retaining the balance.

Here's how I see it so far:
AC1 combat: Decent, but counters break the game and like the rest of the game, there's a huge lack of variety.
AC2 combat: Incredibely stale, tedious and button-mash heavy.
ACB "Combat": Horrid
ACR "Combat": The same as Brotherhood but with very slight variety added.
AC3 combat: Improvement over the Ezio ganes, but still far too easy. Animations are smooth, but the combat is stale.
AC4 combat: The same as AC3 but with worse animations.
ACU combat: Absolutely a step in the right direction, only major problem I have is that several useful features like throwing and different primary weapons (melee, hidden blades) were removed.
ACS combat: What were they even thinking? Animations look terrible, the button mash is constant and the counters are back, but even easier than before. Probably the worst combat system since Brotherhood if you ask me.

Nailed it.

RVSage
05-06-2017, 06:53 PM
AC1 combat to me was the best (animations/difficulty), mix it with Syndicates kill combo animations, we have a winner (Ah also remove easy counters)

marvelfannumber
05-06-2017, 06:56 PM
AC1 combat to me was the best (animations), mix it with Syndicates kill combo animations, we have a winner (Ah also remove easy counters)
It might be just me but I found the Syndicate animations to be horrible. Overly ridiculous, way too fast and awkward. I don't know if they used motion capture for those or not, but it certainly doesn't show.

RVSage
05-06-2017, 07:10 PM
It might be just me but I found the Syndicate animations to be horrible. Overly ridiculous, way too fast and awkward. I don't know if they used motion capture for those or not, but it certainly doesn't show.

Yup normal animations in syndicate felt half baked sets, too fast, I was talking about the 2 person, 3 person and 4 person finishers

marvelfannumber
05-06-2017, 07:18 PM
Yup normal animations in syndicate felt half baked sets, too fast, I was talking about the 2 person, 3 person and 4 person finishers

Oh I see, I apologize. I think the ones in AC3 looked better though personally (the animation in general for AC3 was buttery smooth)

LoyalACFan
05-07-2017, 04:27 AM
Oh I see, I apologize. I think the ones in AC3 looked better though personally (the animation in general for AC3 was buttery smooth)

Yeah, I honestly hated all of the combat animations in ACS. They looked like freaking Tom & Jerry physics. Not even in the same league as AC3's (which honestly might be the most well-animated game I've ever played, in terms of character movement).

Helforsite
05-07-2017, 08:32 AM
Agreed 100%, the combat in Brotherhood is absolutely horrid, I hope they never go that direction again.

Not only is it impossibile to die (no seriously, if you just stand still and let yourself get hit, you regenerate before you can die), but it's way too simple and casual (even by AC standards). Different enemy types are pointless because the kick negates any type of defense they have, auto kills after counters pretty much makes the game play itself with the most minumum "challenge" possibile. It's just a terrible combat system. Here's hoping Ubisoft build the next games combat system off of Unity's, adding more features while retaining the balance.

Here's how I see it so far:
AC1 combat: Decent, but counters break the game and like the rest of the game, there's a huge lack of variety.
AC2 combat: Incredibely stale, tedious and button-mash heavy.
ACB "Combat": Horrid
ACR "Combat": The same as Brotherhood but with very slight variety added.
AC3 combat: Improvement over the Ezio ganes, but still far too easy. Animations are smooth, but the combat is stale.
AC4 combat: The same as AC3 but with worse animations.
ACU combat: Absolutely a step in the right direction, only major problem I have is that several useful features like throwing and different primary weapons (melee, hidden blades) were removed.
ACS combat: What were they even thinking? Animations look terrible, the button mash is constant and the counters are back, but even easier than before. Probably the worst combat system since Brotherhood if you ask me.
I agree in general, but I think AC2's combat was ACB's without any of the fluidity which makes it way worse for me, because in ACB you could atleast be done with it fairly quickly.

Ygdrasel
05-08-2017, 06:44 PM
Teach guards to start attacking faster. Stop taking turns.

Make countering (also counterkills and streaks) a more involved process than 'press one button'. Maybe a directional element. Incorporate a better AI and a guard mechanic for enemies so they can learn and block repetitive counter attacks. -- Think 'For Honor'.

Give enemies actual varying armor that actually must be broken through. Add a durability system to weapons that weakens them with time, at least when it comes to countering - I'm deflecting a giant axe with a sword here, how is that not wearing on the blade.


Incorporate a dodging system ala The Witcher and uncounterable attacks to go with it.

Depower smoke bombs as a cheap, lazy way to take on groups. Smoke should be an escape tactic - make the enemy blind but not suffocating and incapacitated.

Incorporate sound and light variance systems (more stealth than combat but stealth is often a pre-phase to combat, or an aftermath). - Think Thief.

Allow enemies to disarm the player, particularly when a gun is involved (as, with upgrades, a gun makes everything way too easy)
Regarding guns, incorporate a random chance of jamming.

Create a targeting mechanic via which individual parts may be attacked for various advantage. Take out a leg to slow them, both to ground them (leaving them to arm-crawl away). Incapacitate an arm to handicap heavy-weapon users. Give this same mechanic to enemies to use against the player. -- Think Dwarf Fortress or Fallout again.

Make the player be an Assassin, not Scarface during the finale.

SixKeys
05-09-2017, 12:11 AM
Teach guards to start attacking faster. Stop taking turns.

Make countering (also counterkills and streaks) a more involved process than 'press one button'. Maybe a directional element. Incorporate a better AI and a guard mechanic for enemies so they can learn and block repetitive counter attacks. -- Think 'For Honor'.

Give enemies actual varying armor that actually must be broken through. Add a durability system to weapons that weakens them with time, at least when it comes to countering - I'm deflecting a giant axe with a sword here, how is that not wearing on the blade.


Incorporate a dodging system ala The Witcher and uncounterable attacks to go with it.

Depower smoke bombs as a cheap, lazy way to take on groups. Smoke should be an escape tactic - make the enemy blind but not suffocating and incapacitated.

Incorporate sound and light variance systems (more stealth than combat but stealth is often a pre-phase to combat, or an aftermath). - Think Thief.

Allow enemies to disarm the player, particularly when a gun is involved (as, with upgrades, a gun makes everything way too easy)
Regarding guns, incorporate a random chance of jamming.

Create a targeting mechanic via which individual parts may be attacked for various advantage. Take out a leg to slow them, both to ground them (leaving them to arm-crawl away). Incapacitate an arm to handicap heavy-weapon users. Give this same mechanic to enemies to use against the player. -- Think Dwarf Fortress or Fallout again.

Make the player be an Assassin, not Scarface during the finale.

I can get behind almost everything on this list except weapon durability. IMO it's a cheap gimmick and discourages you from ever engaging in combat only because constantly cycling through replacement weapons is annoying as hell.

I also think body part targeting is difficult to implement in third-person combat since the characters are so small. It's only an option with guns or bows which allow for zooming in while targeting. They seemed to have such a system in mind for AC3, but scrapped it for whatever reason and haven't revived it.

LoyalACFan
05-09-2017, 08:36 PM
I can get behind almost everything on this list except weapon durability. IMO it's a cheap gimmick and discourages you from ever engaging in combat only because constantly cycling through replacement weapons is annoying as hell.

Same. It's the only thing I hate about The Witcher. Having to pause to resharpen my swords or buff out my armor mid-combat was a gigantic pain in the ***.

Also @Ygdrasel I'm not a fan of weapon jamming either. Just sounds like a recipe for rage-inducing frustration when your pistol doesn't work when you desperately need it to. Since we're talking Ancient Egypt (and possibly Classical Antiquity for the foreseeable future) it's a bit of a moot point, though.

Tolkyyn
05-31-2017, 04:11 AM
I'm in the worst fight so far, with like 8 or 10 knights Templar so I can kill Robert De Sades (or whatever his name is) and my Altair keeps sheathing his sword. WTF? I keep hitting the 3 button for him to use it, and he fights bare hands against these guys and dies every time. Any suggestions? Is the game bugged or something?

TexasCaesar
05-31-2017, 05:50 AM
AC3 had a very fun and visually appealing combat system, but it was way too easy.

Unity had a challenging combat system, but it lacked a lot of the variety from AC3.

Personally, I've been thinking of something like this:

To start, you'd generally have three classes of weapons: heavy, standard, and light, heavy being things like axes and polearms, standard being things like most swords, and light being things like daggers and knives.

The way they'd interact is as follows. Heavy weapons can parry other heavy weapons but cannot counter, and if you have one you cannot roll. Heavy weapons may also prevent you from using secondary weapons/gadgets if you have them drawn. If you're going up against a heavy weapon user with something "lighter" than a heavy weapon, you're mainly relying on rolling as your means of dodging. These would mostly be situational weapons (like muskets in AC3).

Standard weapons would be able to parry and counter other standard weapons. They would also allow for dodging, and prevent you from rolling while you have them drawn.

Light weapons would only be able to dodge, but also allow you to roll.

Parries and dodges would require moving in the "right direction." Not entirely like For Honor, but the enemies would have tells, and you'd have to move away from where they're coming from to make the parry/dodge successful. A counter might then involve moving in the opposite way, with, of course, proper timing. Counter kills wouldn't be the flashy takedowns, though, unless it was a killing blow.

Now, let's add in ranged weapons. I liked human shields in previous games, but it was, admittedly, a bit easy. I'd say that if you get behind an enemy you should be able to restrain them and walk around with them as a human shield. This would act like kidnapping in Syndicate does, but it would stay in combat. Whenever the enemy you've restrained tries to break free, though, that gives the other enemies an opportunity to break your hold, as does them getting behind you. Otherwise, you'd have to press dodge. If Ubisoft makes more games set in time periods where firearms are prominent (like Syndicate), they ought to consider adding a cover system for shootouts and making enemies try to keep their distance.

In close ranges, you might also add a simple pull-push system. Basically, X would be the "push" and O would be the "pull." Some examples of how this could be used in different situations:

- Chasing an enemy from behind, press O to "pull": you tackle them to the ground, then restrain them.
- You're behind the enemy or on their side, press O to "pull": you restrain them.
---- Press X to push, you fling them away from you, staggering them and putting some distance.
---- Press Square to kill.
---- Hold O to knock out (sleeper hold).
---- Hold Triangle to... combine with gadget?
- You are facing off with an enemy, press X to "push." You kick/punch them away from you, staggering them (breaks a parry).
- You are behind an enemy or chasing them, press X to "push." You knock them to the ground, dealing extra damage.

For the player, we might also limit the number of holsters/scabbards they can carry, putting in some trade-offs. Like, do you wear a musket (treated as a heavy weapon, probably) on your back, or do you wear an ax? Do you go into battle with a sword and a backup knife, or a sword and a pistol, or a pistol and a knife? Etc.

Add some more gadgets and plenty of environmental kills, and I think it'd be a great system. As for possible enemy types, we may not want archetypes so much as just different combinations. Is the enemy skinny (faster and weaker), normal, or thick (slower and stronger)? Do they have a light, standard, or heavy weapon? Do they have no ranged weapon, a sidearm, or a long-ranged weapon? Can they climb buildings or swim? And, then, we apply some common sense. You wouldn't expect a skinny to fight with a heavy ax, for example, or a thickie to fight with a little knife. Enemies with long-ranged weapons probably wouldn't have anything bigger than a light weapon as a backup.

Gadgets would vary from setting to setting somewhat, but it's kind of common sense what sort of things you'd include. Except for Ubisoft, I guess, since they seem to hate introducing new tools and regularly get rid of old ones. For example, dynamite would have made a ton of sense as a gadget in Syndicate. Caltrops would have worked well in Black Flag.

cawatrooper9
05-31-2017, 03:12 PM
I'm in the worst fight so far, with like 8 or 10 knights Templar so I can kill Robert De Sades (or whatever his name is) and my Altair keeps sheathing his sword. WTF? I keep hitting the 3 button for him to use it, and he fights bare hands against these guys and dies every time. Any suggestions? Is the game bugged or something?

Could be a bug- but I'd check to make sure you're not accidentally brushing the directional pad during fights, making him go to fisticuffs mode.

What platform are you on?

Tolkyyn
05-31-2017, 06:01 PM
Could be a bug- but I'd check to make sure you're not accidentally brushing the directional pad during fights, making him go to fisticuffs mode.

What platform are you on?

I'm using a PC, so the 3 key for the sword is no where near where I hit my fighting keys.

cawatrooper9
05-31-2017, 07:26 PM
I'm using a PC, so the 3 key for the sword is no where near where I hit my fighting keys.

Ah, well someone might be able to help you here, but if there's a known bug then the PC forums (http://forums.ubi.com/forumdisplay.php/195-Assassin-s-Creed-General-Discussion-(PC)) might be a good place to check instead. Good luck!