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View Full Version : Tu2 can dive bomb?!!!!1



pdog1
06-19-2004, 11:04 AM
Since when?
WTF!!!?!!

pdog1
06-19-2004, 11:04 AM
Since when?
WTF!!!?!!

Magister__Ludi
06-19-2004, 12:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pdog1:
Since when?
WTF!!!?!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Since the beginning. Tu-2 was a dive bomber, Pe-2 also. Though Pe-2 was used mostly as a low altitude (below 1000m) level bomber because it lacked the reinforced structure of Tu-2.

Magister__Ludi
06-19-2004, 01:33 PM
Hey crazyivan or anybody else with good knowledge of Russian, can you translate a bit from those 3 pages, dealing with dive and level bombing with Tu-2? What is the purpose of the 2 devices from the first page? Can you tell us what is marked on the 2 dials of the first device? Or what can we select with the second device?
Thanks a lothttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.photodump.com/direct/dan_oprea/Tu2_Image84.jpg

http://www.photodump.com/direct/dan_oprea/Tu2_Image85.jpg

http://www.photodump.com/direct/dan_oprea/Tu2_Image86.jpg

Flakwalker
06-19-2004, 06:38 PM
This info seems to be very interesting..

Agamemnon22
06-19-2004, 07:16 PM
Magister, I love you!

The exact devices shown in your scans are in the Pe-2, and none of us working on it could figure out what they were! Thank you dude!

Magister__Ludi
06-19-2004, 07:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Agamemnon22:
Magister, I love you!

The exact devices shown in your scans are in the Pe-2, and none of us working on it could figure out what they were! Thank you dude!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I love you too man, do this plane!
I have 4 more scans for you, maybe you can tell something more about those devices (first 3 scans in this post are the exact 3 pages before the 3 scans in my first post, and the 4th scan is the page after those first 3 scans - check the page numbers).

Can you tell us what was the use for those 2 devices? what the markings on the dials represent? Please..

http://www.photodump.com/direct/dan_oprea/Tu2_Image81.jpg

http://www.photodump.com/direct/dan_oprea/Tu2_Image82.jpg

http://www.photodump.com/direct/dan_oprea/Tu2_Image83.jpg

http://www.photodump.com/direct/dan_oprea/Tu2_Image87.jpg

Agamemnon22
06-19-2004, 08:28 PM
Sure,

Page 80: Getting ready to bomb
Basically it says you pull the bombbay doors lever (on the left) then fold the handle of the emergency jettison lever like shown. Move said lever from position "Safety on" to "Safety off".

Page 81: the thing with the round wheels selects the number of bombs you drop in one go. You move the big handle to the number of bombs you want to drop. In the example, they show choosing to drop 3 bombs. The little dial selects the time delay between consequitive bomb releases. Finally, if you want to drop each bomb separately, you select each bomb number in turn on the big dial, while setting the delay to the minimum (0.05 sec). It also mentions that the navigator should set these settings, regardless of whether the intention is to dive bomb (pilot has control) or level bomb (navigator has control).

Page 82: Dive bombing is done in accordance with dive bombing regulations released by NII VVS KA, 1944 (NII VVS is a VVS research institute)

Page 83: Dive bombing
The time delay should be set to 0.25 seconds.
In case the electric release fails, bombs can be dropped by moving the emergency release lever from position "Safety off" all the way down and to the right. Bombs should be released in dive exit or at least at a constant dive angle. Glide bombing is carried out in the same fashion.

Page 84: Bombing
Step 1: maintain speed indicated by the navigator
Step 2: Steer the plane roughly toward the target using flight plan.
Step 3: On approach to target, pilot corrects the course according to the navigator.
Step 4: Maintain course, speed and attitude until navigator signals that bombs are away.
Step 5: Order navigator or radio operator to check if there aren't any bombs that didn't leave the bay or the external pilons.
Step 6: In stuck bombs are found, drop using the emergency jettison mechanism.
Step 7: Close bomb bay doors by moving the emergency release lever to "Safety On" and unlocking the bomb bay door lever and moving it to the "Closed" position.

Page 85:
Step 8: If it is necessary to drop bombs without engaging the fuse
1) Move the top part of the emergency jettison lever into horizontal position.
2) Push it forward
3) Pull toward self slowly.
4) Make a pause in the "Safety Off" to allow bay doors to open.

Page 86: Low altitude bombing (50-800m)
1. Bombing is carried out using the PBP-1 sight.
I don't quite get this, but you're supposed to use this sight (I'll get you a clear picture from the Pe-2 cockpit tomorrow, taking off soon) in such a way that you have some indication of true ground direction, i.e. your course + wind influence. Do you have any more about that sight? It's sort of been bugging me because I don't really get what it does. I actually thought it was a compass until now :|

Building some of these things is like solving Myst puzzles. It's like "oh.. so THAT's what it does... didn't see that coming"

Magister__Ludi
06-20-2004, 12:55 AM
Thanks Agamemnon22 that you took the time to translate those pages. Now I have a grasp of their content.

As you said, understanding how those planes worked is much like a puzzle. I still do not know how Tu-2 and Pe-2 did level bombing from higher than low altitude (more than 1000m). I never saw a real bombsight mounted on those planes. Never saw a device to allow the bombardier to input the speed and altitude of the bomber (into a sort of computing bombsight) the 2 most important parameters in level bombing.

Do you know how this was done? Or Tu-2 and Pe-2 simply did not have such kind of computing bombsight since they were designed for dive bombing (or low alt level bombing). Were such computing bombsight found on planes with larger cockpits like DB-3, Il-4 or Pe-8? TB-3 had one such device.

Aaron_GT
06-20-2004, 12:05 PM
Very much looking forward to the Pe2 and any other allied medium bombers here...

Agamemnon22
06-20-2004, 12:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Magister__Ludi:
Do you know how this was done? Or Tu-2 and Pe-2 simply did not have such kind of computing bombsight since they were designed for dive bombing (or low alt level bombing). Were such computing bombsight found on planes with larger cockpits like DB-3, Il-4 or Pe-8? TB-3 had one such device.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know about the DB-3, Il-4, etc. I should hope they had them. About the Pe-2 though, according to the Monino museum it actually had the same bombsight as the TB-3. They have the sight on display with a plaque "Bombsight so-and-so, used in TB-3 and Pe-2". However, I have yet to figure out where the bombsight actually goes in the plane. It isn't in any photos or schematics that I have. The 3 devices from your scans are there, but no bombsight. Maybe only certain squadrons or models had it equipped, but I'm really at a loss.

The standard use of the Pe-2 was front-line bombing, so I think a lot of their level bombing did indeed take place at medium altitude using the system described in your scans. Too high and you won't be able to make out the targets maybe? I'm just speculating though. If can scan anything more about that round device on page 86, I'd really appreciate it. The Pe-2 has one just like it, but the one I have pictures of is in really bad shape and it's hard to figure out how it works, exactly.

Magister__Ludi
06-20-2004, 01:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Agamemnon22:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Magister__Ludi:
Do you know how this was done? Or Tu-2 and Pe-2 simply did not have such kind of computing bombsight since they were designed for dive bombing (or low alt level bombing). Were such computing bombsight found on planes with larger cockpits like DB-3, Il-4 or Pe-8? TB-3 had one such device.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know about the DB-3, Il-4, etc. I should hope they had them. About the Pe-2 though, according to the Monino museum it actually had the same bombsight as the TB-3. They have the sight on display with a plaque "Bombsight so-and-so, used in TB-3 and Pe-2". However, I have yet to figure out where the bombsight actually goes in the plane. It isn't in any photos or schematics that I have. The 3 devices from your scans are there, but no bombsight. Maybe only certain squadrons or models had it equipped, but I'm really at a loss.

The standard use of the Pe-2 was front-line bombing, so I think a lot of their level bombing did indeed take place at medium altitude using the system described in your scans. Too high and you won't be able to make out the targets maybe? I'm just speculating though. If can scan anything more about that round device on page 86, I'd really appreciate it. The Pe-2 has one just like it, but the one I have pictures of is in really bad shape and it's hard to figure out how it works, exactly.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Oh sorry Agamemnon22, I should have posted the link with the scans from Tu-2 manual from the beginning:

http://www.airwar.ru/other/bibl/tu2man.zip

I think it is possible that none of the Pe-2 and Tu-2 operational in ww2 had a computing bombsight installed (the notes at Monino are not exactly a good source of accurate info), and did level bombing only from low alts (less than 1000m) where the bombardier could estimate the drop without a special device. Maybe VVS used other bombers (like Il-4) for medium altitude level bombing. Though in post ww2 service Tu-2 probably got a computing bombsight.

Let us know if you find anything new about medium alts level bombing with Tu-2 and Pe-2. And thanks again for translation http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Matz0r
06-20-2004, 01:41 PM
Yak9b can divebomb also! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.pfy.nu/tmp/fw3.jpg

BigganD
06-21-2004, 05:24 PM
so can the p.11 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"Get close .. when he fills the entire windscreen ... then you can't possibly miss." Erich Hartmann

Agamemnon22
06-21-2004, 10:15 PM
Magister: it's a shame you don't read Russian. There's a great article here (posted by Liosha in the Pe-2 thread): http://www.airforce.ru/history/ww2/anosov/index.htm

It's an interview with a former Pe-2 pilot. He talks a lot about how they bombed, how they fought and the plane in general.

Maybe run it through an online translator?

PE_Sushi
06-22-2004, 04:34 AM
on this site : http://www.vectorsite.net/avpe2.html

they say : "Along with the bombsight for level bombing in the glass nose, the pilot had a windscreen bombsight for dive bombing"

I don't know if it means that there was a bomsight the same kind of TB-3's in the noose or if it was lines and numbers drawed in the glass to aid aiming