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View Full Version : Buff nobushi Guardstance



PecarCZ
04-25-2017, 09:12 PM
She is so ------------ slow.LB with full plate armor have faster GS that she.Warden with 2h sword have 3x faster GS that she.Kensei with that ----- big sword have 3x faster GS that she,DEVS OMG YOU NEVER SEE ANY REAL WEAPON???????????????.

xAnaToMx
04-25-2017, 09:14 PM
She is so ------------ slow.LB with full plate armor have faster GS that she.Warden with 2h sword have 3x faster GS that she.Kensei with that ----- big sword have 3x faster GS that she,DEVS OMG YOU NEVER SEE ANY REAL WEAPON???????????????.

Sure, maybe increase her light attack spam while you at it because she must paired with PK. You want to talk about real weapons try to parry a full halberd wing pal...Wish you luck.

Dizzy4213
04-25-2017, 09:25 PM
She is so ------------ slow.LB with full plate armor have faster GS that she.Warden with 2h sword have 3x faster GS that she.Kensei with that ----- big sword have 3x faster GS that she,DEVS OMG YOU NEVER SEE ANY REAL WEAPON???????????????.

Nobushi, Lawbringer, Shugoki and Raider all have the same guard switch speed.

PecarCZ
04-25-2017, 09:31 PM
I talk about weapon speed so why is knight with plate+chain armor 3x faster that samurai with cloth??? And every time when she switch guard side she switch hand that is unrealistic slow move.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5TNQGBGltk

PecarCZ
04-25-2017, 09:53 PM
Not true try fight vs bot lv3 with LB and fast changing defense you will see he change his hand really fast with polearm but try with nobushi that same hand change animation is 2-2.5x slower so most of time i see when PK/Orochi use fast top attack and i change to top in right times nobushi still have left/right defense animation and that attack is not blocked.They need buff her block speed change or fix that bugged animation.

Dizzy4213
04-25-2017, 10:18 PM
Not true try fight vs bot lv3 with LB and fast changing defense you will see he change his hand really fast with polearm but try with nobushi that same hand change animation is 2-2.5x slower so most of time i see when PK/Orochi use fast top attack and i change to top in right times nobushi still have left/right defense animation and that attack is not blocked.They need buff her block speed change or fix that bugged animation.

I hate to break it to you, but as I said before, Nobushi, Lawbringer, Shugoki and Raider all have the same guard switch speed.

You can find comparison videos on YouTube if you want to see for yourself.

PecarCZ
04-25-2017, 10:40 PM
Have Rep3 warlord/conq/nobushi and now i start leveling LB and i must say i dont have any problems with defense with LB but with nobushi sometimes enemy attacks complete ignore my defense (that is slow animation of guard changing or when i quick change GS and parry in right times its not work because animation delay vs parry.

Herbstlicht
04-25-2017, 11:25 PM
Well, there is one other major point. It feels clunky. It feels wrong. It's like: "You were used for this work? Oh stupid something, with those four heros, you have to feel as if you lag! We make it so!" It seriously affects the feel of responsiveness, what's a real deal. In this way, even the assassins block mechanic is superior.

UbiJurassic
04-26-2017, 01:31 AM
Nobushi seems to be one of the heroes we haven't heard too much feedback on. Love the constructive conversation on her so far guys! I'll make a note of this thread.

xLeapingLizardx
04-26-2017, 02:19 AM
Nobushi seems to be one of the heroes we haven't heard too much feedback on. Love the constructive conversation on her so far guys! I'll make a note of this thread.

I would really just like to know if the slower guard switch speeds on certain heroes is a known thing to the dev team and if it is intended or not..
Been really wanting them to fix it but if they don't know about it, then I'd like them to know.. If they intended it to be that way, then I'd like to know, so I can put my inquiries to rest..

UbiJurassic
04-26-2017, 03:04 AM
I would really just like to know if the slower guard switch speeds on certain heroes is a known thing to the dev team and if it is intended or not..
Been really wanting them to fix it but if they don't know about it, then I'd like them to know.. If they intended it to be that way, then I'd like to know, so I can put my inquiries to rest..

No guarantee I can get an answer back, but this is certainly a question I could forward to development!

Helnekromancer
04-26-2017, 04:14 AM
Idk I have a little over 100 hours on the Nobushi and having a slow guard stance just means you going to have to rely on parry, swift recoil and hidden stance more often. If you know the enemy is going to hit you on the left then the right and you can easily block the left but to slow to block the right make sure you parry the left swing, or use swift recoil to create space between you two making him whiff his next attack or use hidden stance and punish him immediately for trying to swing at you. Just try to cover your weaknesses as much as possible.

My only problem with her is how much stamina her moves cost her in order for her to be offensive, Using your ZA as a gap closer, canceling the second strike into a side heavy, follow up with a kick and add a light and now shes exhausted, more than half if not 3/4 of those attacks were blocked/dodged and now she is a free kill. It sucks having to fight in slow concentrated bursts.

kweassa1917
04-26-2017, 04:20 AM
Jur, I'd really appreciate it if you can relay my thoughts to the devs as well.

I've always been a fan of spears and staffs over swords, so I began FH with the Nob. I've currently switched over to the Raider, but I still have more time clocked as the Nob than the Raider. With my experience as a Nob, I find things a little bit different than what others have mentioned, so maybe you could send this over to the devs as a "second opinion" of sorts.


Guard/attack stance switching

In my view, the slower stance switching isn't too big a problem. It's probably an arbitrary distinction given to classes with polearm/spear type long reach, and while I'd not really mind it if it became just a slightly more faster, I'd also not mind at all if it wasn't changed. There are plenty of Lawbs and Raiders with solid defense skills, as well as other Nob players.


Hidden Stance grievances

Rather, IMO, the problem is with Hidden Stance which is a unique "special stance" given exclusively to the Nob. I imagine that the original intent of the developers when they gave the Nob HS, was that it was a supplementary offense/defense tool to assist in coming up with a tricky and technical fighting style, to make up for the general lack of variety in the Nob's base "kit".

Aside from attacks that involve slow and vulnerable heavies, all of the Nob's skills involve spear thrusts -- while effective tool at range, frame-wise (at least, if we believe community experiments in frame counts) it's not particularly fast, and hardly any variety, with all of them sharing a common weakness against side-stepping movement.

These limitations, coupled with the slower guard/attack stance switching speeds bring out a very distinct weakness in the class in that it is very vulnerable at closer ranges, particularly against opponents with relatively quick and dominating attacks. I believe the devs knew about this as well, and the fact that they gave the Nob a quick-retreat on block function along with the HS supports this theory.


The problem is, HS currently isn't bringing the results as intended. Even Nob players of higher skill don't really utilize HS all that much. They mostly rely on the very basics of defense/turtle meta, and the element of range -- which makes up for a very bland and static type of class in game, not very fun. HS is hardly involved at all neither as a form of offense, nor defense.

As a matter of fact, the most common use of of HS for Nob players is as a 'taunt' :rolleyes:


The reasons are as follows:


1. HS activation is too slow

I realize the devs have recently increased HS activation speed, but in actual combat application, it's still too slow -- because the problem isn't with HS activation itself, but rather the "non-responsive time" associated with guard stance switching.

As everyone knows, the way guard works is that when you switch guard/attack stance from one direction to another, the character goes through a "greyed out" phase -- which indicates the switch is in transition. It is this transition time that classes like Lawbs or Raiders or Nobs are known to be slow -- with most testings indicating around 20 frames = approx. 330ms. It is here the reason lies that HS is unreliable tool of defense.

The way HS is set up, is that currently, HS will not activate during this 20 frame = 330ms transitional "grey out" time. It is only when this transition phase is over and a guard direction is newly set, that the Nob responds to the HS command.

Imagine a scenario where a Nob has to put up with fast incoming attacks left and right. Defense is of penultimate importance in this game, and the first instinctive reaction to attacks is people shift guard to block off incoming attacks. The Nobushi sees a quick incoming succession of left - right attack, the player plans to first guard left, and then evade the right with HS and land an immediate counter attack with a light.

But what actually happens is his immediate reflexes (as how the game itself has trained him to be) is that he shifts left to block left, and then he shifts guard to his right on instinct as he presses the C(= PC version) key to activate HS.

The result is that HS doesn't activate when he presses C. His timing is thrown off as he presses C for HS and queues up light attack, so instead of evading the incoming right with HS and countering with a spear thrust, the Nob doesn't register the HS input and simply thrusts the spear while the right attack is coming at her, resulting in getting hit.


So, unless the player gives up his instinct to immediately react upon the attack indicator and switch guard, HS cannot be used as a defensive tool.

Because, in order to use HS as a defensive tool, the player has to stick to whatever guard position he is in and activate HS from there. This means if he fails to activate HS at the right timing -- since he couldn't switch his guard due to fact that the 20 frame = 330ms unresponsive time will deny him from going into HS -- he will be hit.

So, when given a choice to: (a) just use standard guard switch to block and (b) take a risk and remain in wrong guard direction to use HS -- most Nob players, through experience, have chosen to stick with (a). FH is currently "defensive/turtle" meta. Defense is of prime importance. Why would we want to risk an unsure method like HS, which might fail, and has no guarantees that an attack from HS will hit, when just a solid, standard block or parry is safer and will probably bring better results?


This, is the first problem. Nob needs to respond to HS command with higher priority than the guard switch.

The Nob player sees all sorts of attacks coming in all sorts of directions... times his moment and uses the HS, and then the Nob needs to go IMMEDIATELY into HS stance upon command, not wait for guard position to be set to activate. If the HS is not responsive at this levels, then as a defense tool it's too unreliable.



2. Attacks from HS are limited

As an offense tool, in theory, HS "hides" the stance directions like the assassin classes. The problem is, as mentioned earlier Nob attacks aren't particularly fast. Her lights are on the same level as many other classes, with the only classes being noticeably faster being assassins like PK lights, or Orochi toplights... and in the higher levels of players we already have people even parrying assassin lights.

Theoretically, with most of Nob basic attacks being.. well.. "basic" in every meaning of the word, the HS is to be the move that adds unpredictability to her "kit" and therefore act as an opener -- except in reality, blatant HS-heavy moves are out of the question because of its enormous risk due to being slow, and the UB kick move being one of the slowest and easiest to dodge UBs in the game with stuff like Raider or Kensei, Shugoku UBs being slower. The immobility means the opponent's retreat immediately makes it lackluster, and therefore in reality the only reliable options left is light thrusts from HS -- which, as mentioned, advanced players don't particularly have much trouble in blocking correctly.

Hence, as an offensive tool HS is limited as well. In most cases you can evade an attack with HS and immediately try for a thrust, and classes with quicker recovery would simply land its own attack first.

While I don't mean the HS to become the be-all-do-all solution for the Nob, it still needs some kind of an "oomph" factor as a reliable means of unpredictability, offense, and counter attack.



I truly believe a bit of tweak to how HS works could significantly improve the QOL for Nob players. Thx.

teksuo1
04-26-2017, 04:25 AM
sure take away some of her range and make her guard faster :rolleyes:

CoyoteXStarrk
04-26-2017, 04:27 AM
I get that it makes sense realistically to have different guard speeds for different weapons, but balance wise its ridiculously unfair.


Everyone needs to have the same guard speed.

kweassa1917
04-26-2017, 04:35 AM
copy/pasted part2 into previous post

teksuo1
04-26-2017, 04:44 AM
I get that it makes sense realistically to have different guard speeds for different weapons, but balance wise its ridiculously unfair.


Everyone needs to have the same guard speed.

Sure but then everyone needs to have the same range... can't have it all!

kweassa1917
04-26-2017, 04:46 AM
Sure but then everyone needs to have the same range... can't have it all!

Fair enough, once you remove the bullshi* auto-track lunging distances in moves like the PK, WL, Valk jumping strikes, or address how certain tracking attacks cover like meters of gap closed in one strike... then we'll talk about "range advantage".

Oh, not to mention being thrust with a pole weapon also needs to push back the opponents a little with every strike, instead of just stagger them a little on the spot.

Deal? :D

CoyoteXStarrk
04-26-2017, 04:48 AM
Sure but then everyone needs to have the same range... can't have it all!

Those two are not related in anyway.


Guard speed is the basis for being able to do anything about your opponent attacking you and it has been shown that certain heroes (Nobushi) are literally incapable of defending themselves accurately against some attacks.


That is a direct balance issue. Range is not comparable to that because range itself is not the basis for anything. Its just a handy thing to have. Whereas the ability to defend oneself needs to be universal.

Moondyne_MC
04-26-2017, 04:49 AM
Jur, I'd really appreciate it if you can relay my thoughts to the devs as well.

I've always been a fan of spears and staffs over swords, so I began FH with the Nob. I've currently switched over to the Raider, but I still have more time clocked as the Nob than the Raider. With my experience as a Nob, I find things a little bit different than what others have mentioned, so maybe you could send this over to the devs as a "second opinion" of sorts.


Guard/attack stance switching

In my view, the slower stance switching isn't too big a problem. It's probably an arbitrary distinction given to classes with polearm/spear type long reach, and while I'd not really mind it if it became just a slightly more faster, I'd also not mind at all if it wasn't changed. There are plenty of Lawbs and Raiders with solid defense skills, as well as other Nob players.


Hidden Stance grievances

Rather, IMO, the problem is with Hidden Stance which is a unique "special stance" given exclusively to the Nob. I imagine that the original intent of the developers when they gave the Nob HS, was that it was a supplementary offense/defense tool to assist in coming up with a tricky and technical fighting style, to make up for the general lack of variety in the Nob's base "kit".

Aside from attacks that involve slow and vulnerable heavies, all of the Nob's skills involve spear thrusts -- while effective tool at range, frame-wise (at least, if we believe community experiments in frame counts) it's not particularly fast, and hardly any variety, with all of them sharing a common weakness against side-stepping movement.

These limitations, coupled with the slower guard/attack stance switching speeds bring out a very distinct weakness in the class in that it is very vulnerable at closer ranges, particularly against opponents with relatively quick and dominating attacks. I believe the devs knew about this as well, and the fact that they gave the Nob a quick-retreat on block function along with the HS supports this theory.


The problem is, HS currently isn't bringing the results as intended. Even Nob players of higher skill don't really utilize HS all that much. They mostly rely on the very basics of defense/turtle meta, and the element of range -- which makes up for a very bland and static type of class in game, not very fun. HS is hardly involved at all neither as a form of offense, nor defense.

As a matter of fact, the most common use of of HS for Nob players is as a 'taunt' :rolleyes:


The reasons are as follows:


1. HS activation is too slow

I realize the devs have recently increased HS activation speed, but in actual combat application, it's still too slow -- because the problem isn't with HS activation itself, but rather the "non-responsive time" associated with guard stance switching.

As everyone knows, the way guard works is that when you switch guard/attack stance from one direction to another, the character goes through a "greyed out" phase -- which indicates the switch is in transition. It is this transition time that classes like Lawbs or Raiders or Nobs are known to be slow -- with most testings indicating around 20 frames = approx. 330ms. It is here the reason lies that HS is unreliable tool of defense.

The way HS is set up, is that currently, HS will not activate during this 20 frame = 330ms transitional "grey out" time. It is only when this transition phase is over and a guard direction is newly set, that the Nob responds to the HS command.

Imagine a scenario where a Nob has to put up with fast incoming attacks left and right. Defense is of penultimate importance in this game, and the first instinctive reaction to attacks is people shift guard to block off incoming attacks. The Nobushi sees a quick incoming succession of left - right attack, the player plans to first guard left, and then evade the right with HS and land an immediate counter attack with a light.

But what actually happens is his immediate reflexes (as how the game itself has trained him to be) is that he shifts left to block left, and then he shifts guard to his right on instinct as he presses the C(= PC version) key to activate HS.

The result is that HS doesn't activate when he presses C. His timing is thrown off as he presses C for HS and queues up light attack, so instead of evading the incoming right with HS and countering with a spear thrust, the Nob doesn't register the HS input and simply thrusts the spear while the right attack is coming at her, resulting in getting hit.


So, unless the player gives up his instinct to immediately react upon the attack indicator and switch guard, HS cannot be used as a defensive tool.

Because, in order to use HS as a defensive tool, the player has to stick to whatever guard position he is in and activate HS from there. This means if he fails to activate HS at the right timing -- since he couldn't switch his guard due to fact that the 20 frame = 330ms unresponsive time will deny him from going into HS -- he will be hit.

So, when given a choice to: (a) just use standard guard switch to block and (b) take a risk and remain in wrong guard direction to use HS -- most Nob players, through experience, have chosen to stick with (a). FH is currently "defensive/turtle" meta. Defense is of prime importance. Why would we want to risk an unsure method like HS, which might fail, and has no guarantees that an attack from HS will hit, when just a solid, standard block or parry is safer and will probably bring better results?


This, is the first problem. Nob needs to respond to HS command with higher priority than the guard switch.

The Nob player sees all sorts of attacks coming in all sorts of directions... times his moment and uses the HS, and then the Nob needs to go IMMEDIATELY into HS stance upon command, not wait for guard position to be set to activate. If the HS is not responsive at this levels, then as a defense tool it's too unreliable.



2. Attacks from HS are limited

As an offense tool, in theory, HS "hides" the stance directions like the assassin classes. The problem is, as mentioned earlier Nob attacks aren't particularly fast. Her lights are on the same level as many other classes, with the only classes being noticeably faster being assassins like PK lights, or Orochi toplights... and in the higher levels of players we already have people even parrying assassin lights.

Theoretically, with most of Nob basic attacks being.. well.. "basic" in every meaning of the word, the HS is to be the move that adds unpredictability to her "kit" and therefore act as an opener -- except in reality, blatant HS-heavy moves are out of the question because of its enormous risk due to being slow, and the UB kick move being one of the slowest and easiest to dodge UBs in the game with stuff like Raider or Kensei, Shugoku UBs being slower. The immobility means the opponent's retreat immediately makes it lackluster, and therefore in reality the only reliable options left is light thrusts from HS -- which, as mentioned, advanced players don't particularly have much trouble in blocking correctly.

Hence, as an offensive tool HS is limited as well. In most cases you can evade an attack with HS and immediately try for a thrust, and classes with quicker recovery would simply land its own attack first.

While I don't mean the HS to become the be-all-do-all solution for the Nob, it still needs some kind of an "oomph" factor as a reliable means of unpredictability, offense, and counter attack.



I truly believe a bit of tweak to how HS works could significantly improve the QOL for Nob players. Thx.

Very well put. The only reliable use of HS I ever get is cancelling light recoveries in to more lights to gain something like 10ms advantage on my next light (lol). I'd love to see it implemented in a slightly different way (an actual button would be nice, and help with the guard change input confusion) but having HS activate immediately during a guard change would be wonderful.

kweassa1917
04-26-2017, 05:27 AM
Very well put. The only reliable use of HS I ever get is cancelling light recoveries in to more lights to gain something like 10ms advantage on my next light (lol). I'd love to see it implemented in a slightly different way (an actual button would be nice, and help with the guard change input confusion) but having HS activate immediately during a guard change would be wonderful.

I certainly think so too. I've been playing fighting games for a long time and it's certainly not my first time using classes/characters with special stances. I loved the stance changes in "Lei Wulong" in Tekken series -- which I find to be one of the most impressively done in a fighting game. Certainly I would commend UbiMont's efforts so far, but unfortunately HS is just lackluster.

I wouldn't expect it to be such a complex and masterful stance-change mechanic as in Tekken, but still, its got potential to be a really cool and awesome "wow" factor for the Nob, and introduce some technical aspect to the otherwise "very simple and basic" class.

I mean, I'd actually prefer if they changed the UB jumping kicks into just a quicker, faster UB sidekick that, but at the price of removing the extra guaranteed thrust attack... and that alone would actually make the Nob feel a lot more dynamic. Nothing's guaranteed, but the quicker special attack would put a lot more pressure on the opponent.

Just... some "oomph!" with the Nob, please! :)

Joseph_2017
04-26-2017, 07:11 AM
She's a woman holding a polearm, seems pretty accurate to me. I use her too btw.