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View Full Version : Warden and Pk Nerfs Are Fair But Gonna Feed the Turtle Meta



Kraxers
04-25-2017, 05:57 AM
Hello
First of all pk and warden are two main characters I play with conq and lb (Deus Vult) and when I play them not only playing against them I was saying "yes this spam thing is kinda too strong. And PK spam is too rewarding for just a little effort." I put my friend to for honor when we were just hanging I choose pk and I said just spam left click while moving mouse around and move mouse to indicator for block. He did good which is ********. But for last weeks I tried out other heroes aswell I was always aware of turtles in this game but these two characters were opening them. I fear after nerfing offensive things like these which is also very logical to nerf when you look from another point only thing that keeps this game from infinite staring contest, fights will be even more boring.
Take raider for example. Weak class for For Honor's core fighting mechanics so they mostly try ledge and other things. It is understandable. But the problem is when I play against a raider or any other class aspecialy if I beat them so they lose more than %50hp they just keep backing off and waiting for you to make mistake. That sound logical right? The problem is you can't really punish them for being so defensive parry makes turtling so good. They don't even throw a single hit they just back up back up back up if he is an orochi he will throw some flicker zone or top light and get back. Raiders are even worse they are just waiting for guardbreak all day long. Warlord keep backing up and throw a headbutt when you try to close gap. I can understand nobushis that trying to keep distance but this isn't like that. This is just some mechanical flaw that forces you to stare your openent and press "s" until he ****s up while trying to catch you and play the game.
What do you think about this matter?

kweassa1917
04-25-2017, 06:02 AM
The turtle meta is going to be addressed separately, accordin to the devs, so for now, let's just be glad the balancing came through.

bananaflow2017
04-25-2017, 09:32 AM
Yes the turtle meta will be fed by the nerfs. But it's k cuz then he got the same conditions like other classes.
Hf with the all the warlords.
Nearly Every game I player after patch included a warlord just doing nything than turteling and headbutting....

Charmzzz
04-25-2017, 12:18 PM
So true, and there is nothing you can do about it if you have a class with no bash... Try killing a turtling Warlord as an Assassin. Full Block Stance, heals from Shield blocks, only going for Headbutt into guaranteed Light Attack. You can go for the GB as the Assassin, much wow, works in 1% of all cases...

Really "fun" to play vs full Teams of Warlord,Conq, Valk and Lawbringer, too. Only turtling, waiting for a bash from a Teammate. Nothing you can do as an Assassin Class.

kweassa1917
04-25-2017, 01:04 PM
So true, and there is nothing you can do about it if you have a class with no bash... Try killing a turtling Warlord as an Assassin. Full Block Stance, heals from Shield blocks, only going for Headbutt into guaranteed Light Attack. You can go for the GB as the Assassin, much wow, works in 1% of all cases...

Really "fun" to play vs full Teams of Warlord,Conq, Valk and Lawbringer, too. Only turtling, waiting for a bash from a Teammate. Nothing you can do as an Assassin Class.

Lol assassins complaing... :D :D Try it with a Raider or a Kensei.

CandleInTheDark
04-25-2017, 01:08 PM
Lol assassins complaing... :D :D Try it with a Raider or a Kensei.

Hey some of us assassins quite like cracking turtle shells, I always consider my little shiv a can opener against the more armoured folk :p I have a decent record against warlords, lawbringers and conquerors with peacekeepers and berserkers and I doubt that will change with the nerf as I don't spam lights in any case.

Charmzzz
04-25-2017, 01:30 PM
Lol assassins complaing... :D :D Try it with a Raider or a Kensei.

At least you have Feint into Unblockable. Assassins only have Feint into GB / normal Attacks.


Hey some of us assassins quite like cracking turtle shells, I always consider my little shiv a can opener against the more armoured folk :p I have a decent record against warlords, lawbringers and conquerors with peacekeepers and berserkers and I doubt that will change with the nerf as I don't spam lights in any case.

On Console... I'm playing on PC, blocking and even parrying Light Attacks is pretty common here.

kweassa1917
04-25-2017, 01:45 PM
You mean somebody actually gets hit buy Kensei, Raider UBs??? :D :D

CandleInTheDark
04-25-2017, 02:30 PM
On Console... I'm playing on PC, blocking and even parrying Light Attacks is pretty common here.

Don't throw just light attacks then? I regularly hit my heavy-heavy chain and heavies get parried if you just throw them on console, even peacekeeper's, it takes feinting or feinting at the end of a chain like light-light- feint heavy heavy-heavy. when that starts getting caught, heavy soft cancel light bleed or heavy soft cancel guardbreak. Maybe you would need to feint heavies to land a light until the heavy isn't expected and it would screw up the parry timing but I would bet heavies on console are no faster than lights on pc.

kbvlcvfkhgc
04-25-2017, 04:00 PM
[QUOTE=Charmzzz;12579156]So true, and there is nothing you can do about it if you have a class with no bash... Try killing a turtling Warlord as an Assassin. Full Block Stance, heals from Shield blocks, only going for Headbutt into guaranteed Light Attack. You can go for the GB as the Assassin, much wow, works in 1% of all cases...

Really "fun" to play vs full Teams of Warlord,Conq, Valk and Lawbringer, too. Only turtling, waiting for a bash from a Teammate. Nothing you can do as an Assassin Class.[/QUOTE

You mean like the kind of fun it is for the rest of us to put up with the PK's never ending light spamming? dodge dodge stab stab stab bleed runaway?

your quick to complain about turtling but what other effective method is there to deal with an attack so fast that its virtually unblockable except by luck?

no problem with the warden but hearing ***** PK's complaining? sorry no sympathy or love for the coward class,

you guys are despised for a reason,

CandleInTheDark
04-25-2017, 04:11 PM
You mean like the kind of fun it is for the rest of us to put up with the PK's never ending light spamming? dodge dodge stab stab stab bleed runaway?

your quick to complain about turtling but what other effective method is there to deal with an attack so fast that its virtually unblockable except by luck?

no problem with the warden but hearing ***** PK's complaining? sorry no sympathy or love for the coward class,

you guys are despised for a reason,

Except we don't all do that, streamers just tell you we all do that because it is a popular thing to say. Got to keep their views up and all.

Blasto95
04-25-2017, 04:20 PM
PK fully deserves a nerf/change to the Light Attack Spam. Nerf her to much though and shell drop dramatically. Right now like many heroes, shes limited to just one or two consistent abilities. Everything else is very very situational or completely unusable. I like the direction their taking right now, hope it fixes the light attack spam. I just want to play PK in peace without being called a LA ir ZA spammer.

Warden also needed a nerf to his near 100% safe against certain characters Should Bash. Unless the opponent has a Dodge+Light/Heavy, Warden could freely use Shoulder Bash, and with enough skill he could block/parry any incoming attack, GB if they dodge, or follow through with the shoulder bash. It needed to be nerfed. Unlike PKs nerf though, I think they may have went a little overboard on his. Im all for trying these changes, just dont want to see him unusable for more than month before they fix their mistake.

Kaijudub
04-25-2017, 04:26 PM
I'm amazed tbh, actually thats a lie I was completely expecting UBI to go overboard with this nerf.. I would expect to see 90% of warden users switch to Warlord.

Can't we just have a game thats how its supposed to be upon release?? RB6 siege, The division, and now FH. Ubisoft are actually making money out of mediocrity here and we just continue to let it happen....

Feels bad.

kbvlcvfkhgc
04-25-2017, 04:48 PM
Except we don't all do that, streamers just tell you we all do that because it is a popular thing to say. Got to keep their views up and all.

yes, yes you do and you know you do, i do actually play the game and have seen it countless times.

when any kind of pressure is applied every single PK reverts to the spam, why not its a guaranteed kill for you except if the opposing player gets lucky, once the PK puts the spam on you cant even get an attack off,

like i say the cowards choice, any fool can press R1 R1 R1 R1 R1 R1.

just once it would be nice to hear a PK main concede that they are ridiculously OP, just once?

CandleInTheDark
04-25-2017, 04:51 PM
yes, yes you do and you know you do, i do actually play the game and have seen it countless times.

when any kind of pressure is applied every single PK reverts to the spam, why not its a guaranteed kill for you except if the opposing player gets lucky, once the PK puts the spam on you cant even get an attack off,

like i say the cowards choice, any fool can press R1 R1 R1 R1 R1 R1.

just once it would be nice to hear a PK main concede that they are ridiculously OP, just once?

Dude, you're embarrassing yourself, go look over my post history from about one or two months ago. I was one of the ones trying to get the devs to address the light spam.

kbvlcvfkhgc
04-25-2017, 04:58 PM
Dude, you're embarrassing yourself, go look over my post history from about one or two months ago. I was one of the ones trying to get the devs to address the light spam.

LOL?

embarrassing myself because i'm telling the truth,

you sir are every bit the PK,

wear your badge with pride, you have well and truly earned it,

stab stab stab and runaway.

CandleInTheDark
04-25-2017, 05:12 PM
Like I say, check my post history, even done some of the work for you.

http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1622624-Peacekeeper-nerfs-are-counter-productive?p=12520573&viewfull=1#post12520573

The problem is they don't want to touch the speed (which with the lower fps on consoles affects them more than pcs) but as it is she has speed and damage and damage over time and can seemingly close to engage or get out of dodge at will. I have no problem with her being the best at combat in her range but because of the spam, people are not given any kind of chance to put her back in their range.

As I see it, I think there needs to be more time between chains (meaning she is quick but she has to set herself up to be precise) including when they cancel a chain in favour of starting another, this keeps her speed and gives a chance for guardbreak or a dodge to get back to neutral, her damage on her lights needs to come down (I would be happy with pre way of the shark passive nobushi damage assuming that is less) and she needs to be punishable when she is out of stamina rather than able to roll as far as she does. If they want her to be quick then she needs to be quick and precise which means encouraging her kit over mindlessly pressing light attack. But then people get salty over bleed as well so no idea what to do about that, I just know I have to work harder and take more risks than just using light and the analogue stick for that damage.

http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1619892-Opinion-on-pk-changes?p=12511881&viewfull=1#post12511881

At the same time, spam does exist. The changes benefit my play style because I use deflects and look to use all four ways to get bleed.If they are sold on the speed then one or more of a few things might help.

Take down the damage per hit on both lights and heavies, if people can't react to spam then her damage per hit puts her damage per second as higher than most other characters in real terms(in that while their attacks do more, they are less likely to land them).

Increase the time between ending one chain, whether complete or not, and starting another, make the most attractive option finishing her chain with the risk of block and parry that entails rather than using the quickest attack over and over.

Increase the stamina per light both hit and blocked so that spam is less feasible.

While they want her speed high while she has stamina, nerf her disengage options while she is out of stamina, meaning dodges and rolls need to have less distance and need to be slower. Along with the fact assassins can't avoid falling down now that makes running out of stamina more punishable.

There was another point raised that with the lower fps, they need to look at balancing console and pc separately, it could be that is what causes some of the issues also.

I'm speaking as someone who wants to like the peacekeeper, and hey I have seen at least two people say light spam is boring, I agree with that, we need less spammy peacekeepers out there. Overall she needs to be able to punish over-aggression (deflects and such, to some degree her attack speed, the other person needs to get back into their range which at the same time they need a fair chance to do) but also she needs to have a playstyle of quick but precise attacks.

At what point in any of this am I saying light attack spam is good or advocating use of it? Or did you just come here salty because a peacekeeper beat you?

Blasto95
04-25-2017, 05:25 PM
Like I say, check my post history, even done some of the work for you.

http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1622624-Peacekeeper-nerfs-are-counter-productive?p=12520573&viewfull=1#post12520573


http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1619892-Opinion-on-pk-changes?p=12511881&viewfull=1#post12511881


At what point in any of this am I saying light attack spam is good or advocating use of it? Or did you just come here salty because a peacekeeper beat you?

Its just some troll who apparently cant block a single PK light attack to save his own life. Pretty sad if you ask me.

No one here is saying PKs lights are not OP, but you make it out to be like its some kind of god like untouchable hero. Block the first light attack...Like 5 other heroes have the same speed attack, Its the second attack thats a problem. So if you cant block PKs light attacks, its not just her you're having problems with kbvlcvfkhgc...Its likely the game itself you're having trouble grasping.

CandleInTheDark
04-25-2017, 05:27 PM
Its just some troll who apparently cant block a single PK light attack to save his own life. Pretty sad if you ask me.

No one here is saying PKs lights are not OP, but you make it out to be like its some kind of god like untouchable hero. Block the first light attack...Like 5 other heroes have the same speed attack, Its the second attack thats a problem. So if you cant block PKs light attacks, its not just her you're having problems with kbvlcvfkhgc...Its likely the game itself you're having trouble grasping.

Yeah I figured, but eh three minutes to blow his all pk users deny spam is overpowered BS out the water is worth it when I am otherwise bored.

Kraxers
04-26-2017, 12:45 PM
Well when I read comments I see people more tilted by pk spam than turtle meta so I suppose turtle warlords or all other turtles are more acceptable than PK spam.

CandleInTheDark
04-26-2017, 12:58 PM
Did you actually read this thread or did you just come to poke at pk mains? Because if the latter, if you'll read up you will see me saying, again and again, that we don't all do this and you will see two of my past posts I quoted with suggestions on how to fix the spam, one of which, not that I am saying the devs based it off that, was what the devs actually went with.