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WUAF_Boxer
04-04-2004, 12:34 PM
I'm not sure if this has been adressed, but the overheating of 190s in AEP is ridiculous. This is compared to other planes in the game. Once they start to overheat it is very hard to get them to cool. I always have my rad full open. Flying the Dora is a constant battle to keep it cool. And the engine gets damaged quickly after overheating begins. This is a real disadvantage for a plane who's main advantage is speed. As soon as you go to 110%, it overheats.

There is a huge difference compared to 109's or most other planes. Was this true in real life? Where 190's really prone to overheating? If not please correct this Oleg because it has turned my favorite plane into somewhat of a frustration, and has put it at a severe disadvantage http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif.

WUAF_Boxer
04-04-2004, 12:34 PM
I'm not sure if this has been adressed, but the overheating of 190s in AEP is ridiculous. This is compared to other planes in the game. Once they start to overheat it is very hard to get them to cool. I always have my rad full open. Flying the Dora is a constant battle to keep it cool. And the engine gets damaged quickly after overheating begins. This is a real disadvantage for a plane who's main advantage is speed. As soon as you go to 110%, it overheats.

There is a huge difference compared to 109's or most other planes. Was this true in real life? Where 190's really prone to overheating? If not please correct this Oleg because it has turned my favorite plane into somewhat of a frustration, and has put it at a severe disadvantage http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif.

p1ngu666
04-04-2004, 12:45 PM
i dont have this problem. close/auto is now just closed.
the spit/hurri have strange overheat

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VW-IceFire
04-04-2004, 03:54 PM
I keep the rad at 4 or 6 during a fight with WEP on and few problems.

The Auto system doesn't work anymore...apparently wasn't realistic anyways.

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ZG77_Lignite
04-04-2004, 04:45 PM
I don't fly the Dora much, so can't comment on it, but with the A series, I find it unnecessary to open the radiators under all but the most extreme conditions. Flown with sensible power settings the thing is a dream, imho.

That being said, Oleg has mentioned (in addition to the 'auto/closed' situation) that the Ta-152 and FW190D series' have a heating issue. One overheats to fast, the other too slow is I believe how he put it.

Hunde_3.JG51
04-04-2004, 05:21 PM
ZG77_Lignite wrote:

"That being said, Oleg has mentioned (in addition to the 'auto/closed' situation) that the Ta-152 and FW190D series' have a heating issue. One overheats to fast, the other too slow is I believe how he put it."

That is correct so expect changes in those two aircraft. And the "auto" setting does mean closed now in the 190A's, and this is historically accurate. Still, I hope he gets rid of the closed/auto option to avoid confusion.

The A-4 overheats quicker than the other 190A's, whether this is accurate or not I don't know but it seems a bit fast to me. As far as cooling them down I don't find them harder to cool down than most planes.

The Spitfire seems to take forever to overheat but when it does it is very hard to cool down, I think this will be looked at IMO.

The La-5 is still a joke IMHO, seemingly never overheating at all.

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TheStriker_p51d
04-19-2004, 07:21 PM
for those of you who seem to not be having an overheating problem you must not be staying alive long enough to realize it.....lol

Fehler
04-19-2004, 08:03 PM
Hey Hunde.. I was able to overheat the La-5 (Standard) yesterday in a dogfight. Of course, by the time I did, I had actually forgotten that I was testing the overheat time, no kidding! This was in an online dogfight, I wonder if that matters...

LOL

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VW-IceFire
04-19-2004, 09:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TheStriker_p51d:
for those of you who seem to not be having an overheating problem you must not be staying alive long enough to realize it.....lol<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I last longer in a FW190 during a fight than any other type of aircraft. Usually thats because if I have the advantage I totally control the fight by using immense speed and hitting power to make several passes at the opponent maintaining speed or altitude. At a disadvantage I can prolong the battle (sometimes long enough to escape) using the superior roll rate and durability of the FW190.

So no I last quite a long time in these planes and while it overheats fairly quickly it is noted as being a plane that runs hot. More to the point if you have speed and your rad is open to 4 or 6 then overheating is not an issue that can't be controled with sensible throttle control. Its not a disadvantage at all...

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Hunde_3.JG51
04-20-2004, 03:34 PM
Fehler, yeah tested this again and it will eventually overheat but man does it take a long time. I remember Robban mentioning in his climb tests about Lavochkins not overheating while others would have long toasted their powerplants. Wonder why the La's are so resistant to overheating, I have never read or seen anything suggesting they had extremely efficient cooling systems.

Wait a minute, what the &*%$ were you doing in an La? Blasphemy!

I am kidding of course (sort of http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif). I have alot of respect for the Lavochkin, if it were made of all metal construction and there was better quality control during production it would be among my favorites (I have a thing for fast radial engined aircraft). Some things in FB may be questionable but the La was one hell of a design and it will always have my respect.

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Formerly Kyrule2
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DJDalton
04-21-2004, 04:05 PM
I was overheating in the FW190A and the Bf-109 (Though not as frequently) as well until I took the advice here. I had my radiator set in "Closed/Auto" prior to that. Now I leave it open or partially open and play with the settings in "extending" (never say running) or dives. I don't have the overheating problem anymore.

"I never lost a wingman"

Erich Hartmann

p1ngu666
04-21-2004, 04:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hunde_3.JG51:
Fehler, yeah tested this again and it will eventually overheat but man does it take a long time. I remember Robban mentioning in his climb tests about Lavochkins not overheating while others would have long toasted their powerplants. Wonder why the La's are so resistant to overheating, I have never read or seen anything suggesting they had extremely efficient cooling systems.

Wait a minute, what the &*%$ were you doing in an La? Blasphemy!

I am kidding of course (sort of http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif). I have alot of respect for the Lavochkin, if it were made of all metal construction and there was better quality control during production it would be among my favorites (I have a thing for fast radial engined aircraft). Some things in FB may be questionable but the La was one hell of a design and it will always have my respect.

http://www.chesterfieldarmament.com/trudgian/icewarriors/icewarriors.jpg

Formerly Kyrule2
http://www.jg51.com/<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

hunde, LA9 and 11 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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Hunde_3.JG51
04-21-2004, 08:50 PM
p1ngu666, yeah, La-9 and La-11 were certainly wicked planes but unfortunately came too late to see action in WWII. It's like the Tempest for me, it is one of my favorite planes ever made but the fact that it only saw action for a relatively short time really takes away from my fondness for the aircraft (of course its not the plane's fault but still...).

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Formerly Kyrule2
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Nub_322Sqn
04-22-2004, 01:56 AM
FW190's overheat disatvantage?

LMAO, it has a huge advantage.

It can cool down it's engine without opening the cowl flaps very fast.

Just turn off the booster and set throttle at 99% and the engine cools down rapidly.

I find that a lot more weird then the Spitfire/Hurricane overheat issue because once you reach overheat in those planes your toast if your in the middle of a dogfight because you need to open the radiator and set throttle and prop pitch around 70% to cool down your engine and you need to do that for a long time before your able to use 100% throttle and pitch again.

The only time you seriously overheat a FW190 or a Bf109 is with manual prop pitch.
If you use auto pitch you can fly at 99% throttle until you run out of fuel.

Can't do that is a Spitfire or a Hurricane.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~rcma/banners/Nubarusbanner.jpg

p1ngu666
04-22-2004, 03:28 AM
u can back hurri/spit to zero power itll cool off quick, but yes it is strange compared to the other planes

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Nub_322Sqn
04-22-2004, 03:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
u can back hurri/spit to zero power itll cool off quick, but yes it is strange compared to the other planes

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&lt;123_GWood_JG123&gt; NO SPAM!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You can't do that in the middle of a dogfight, you loose too much speed and altitude so your still toast in a Spit/Hurri when you overheat your engine.

Cooling down an air cooled radial engine without additional airflow at 99% throttle and auto pitch within a few seconds is completely wrong.

But I am sure it will be fixed in the next patch for all planes.

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Hunde_3.JG51
04-22-2004, 07:48 PM
T-ONub, it's true you can fly a long time in a 190 with auto prop-pitch, but as anyone who flies the 190 will tell you auto prop-pitch is useless and you will lose up to 15km/h or so in top speed and climb slower. I've already said this once before but the 190 gets no boost from manual prop-pitch like 109, it is needed just to get to indicated top speeds in object viewer, using auto prop-pitch will slow you down. Take a 190A-4, build max speed at sea-level, then disengage auto prop pitch and set it to 100% manual. Only then will you reach indicated top speed.

I think the Spitifre (takes too long to overheat, takes too long to cool down), 190D, and Ta-152 all have overheat issues that are being looked at.

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Formerly Kyrule2
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[This message was edited by Hunde_3.JG51 on Fri April 23 2004 at 10:19 AM.]

Nub_322Sqn
04-23-2004, 12:43 AM
I can reach the speeds listed in the object viewer for the FW190-A4 just fine with auto prop pitch.
It's even 8km/h faster at sea level then in the object viewer.

I can reach 548 km/h in the A4 and 651 km/h at 6000 meter with auto pitch.

Manual pitch will help in a climb though but once your at alt and start to B&Z your enemies you don't need manual pitch anymore as long as you maintain your speed.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~rcma/banners/Nubarusbanner.jpg

clint-ruin
04-23-2004, 02:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by T-ONub_322Sqn:
I can reach the speeds listed in the object viewer for the FW190-A4 just fine with auto prop pitch.
It's even 8km/h faster at sea level then in the object viewer. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Something else weird.

Just went and did some testing in 2.00.


http://users.bigpond.net.au/gwen/fb/fw190a4vsla5.zip

Tests included are:

La5, 100% throttle, rad open - overheat message at ~5.20, engine damage at ~12.20, top speed 505/500kmh, down to ~435/430 with engine damage.

La5, 100% throttle, rad open, boost engaged - overheat message at ~3.10, engine damaged at ~10.00, engine inoperable at ~12.00, top speed 535/530kmh

FW-190A4, 100% throttle, rad open, no overheat message after 35 minutes of testing, top speed 505/500kmh.

FW-190A4, part of same test as above, after 35 minutes of 100%/rad open, tested 100%/rad closed. Still no overheat message of any kind and no engine damage, top speed 525/520kmh

FW-190A4 with 110% throttle with rad open, no overheat message of any kind and no engine damage, top speed 525/520kmh.

I haven't tested the A4 at 110/rad closed because I got bored, but if someone wants to, go for it - I have done about 45 or so of these for differnt planes so far and I'm getting really bored with it.

All Crimea, 12:00, 100% fuel, CEM, radiators manually toggled to "open" or "closed", sea level.

Perhaps I am just doing this wrong, but I'd be very interested to see what is supposed to be so bad about the FW-190s overheating behaviour and what makes the La5s so "resistant to overheating" or "a joke".

http://users.bigpond.net.au/gwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

Nub_322Sqn
04-23-2004, 02:31 AM
If you keep auto pitch on and never go above 100% in a FW190 A4 it never overheats, not even with rad fully closed.

When you fly with 110% and rad closed you will reach 548km/h with auto pitch.

When you get the overheat message you simply trottle back to 100% and the overheat message is gone without opening the radiator.

The same for the Bf109 G2, when I fly the G2 I just close the radiator and fly at 100% most of the time with sometimes boosting up to 110% if needed.

You only need the radiator controls if you toy around with manual pitch control.

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Hunde_3.JG51
04-23-2004, 10:40 AM
I use different tesating method, I fly off multiplayer map 1.

Here is what I get:

Max speed for FW-190A-4 50% fuel with radiator closed;

Sea level (540km/h in object viewer):
Auto-pitch: 533km/h
100% manual: 548km/h

6,000m (648km/h in object viewer)
Auto-pitch: 633km/h
100% manual: 644km/h

La-5 ('42) 50% fuel radiator closed.

Sea-level: 549km/h (540-558km/h in object viewer)
6,000m: 618km/h (598-605km/h at 6,250 in object viewer)

At sea-level with manual prop-pitch the 190 overheated MUCH faster than La-5 but it is going over indicated number. At 6,000m it overheated very fast and still did not reach indicated speed. With auto-pitch the 190 still overheated faster and was 7km/h short of its indicated speed at sea-level and 15km/h slower than its indicated speed at 6,000m. The La-5 overheated much slower and was right in the middle of its indicated speed at sea-level and was 13-20km/h faster than indicated top speed at 6,000m (max is supposed to be at 6,250m, so maybe it can go even faster). Now here is the great part, I climbed to 6,000 at 100% throttle (max for La-5), boost enabled, and radiator open for short time, then closed it while still climbing and never overheated, even 10 minutes after (I stopped out of boredom) I had reached top speed (618km/h). Like I said, a complete joke.

I will try on Crimea, etc later. Also, I can acieve 100% identical results every time using this method and I am pretty precise with my speed testing. Also, I accelerate to speed, I don't dive and deccelerate. And for the record I only complained about the 190's overheating once, and that was because we were never told that auto setting means closed concerning radiator in AEP. And I never complained about ability to cool down 190's engine. I do however have a problem with the La-5 as stated above.

And clint, I recommend you do test both planes with radiator closed at max throttle and with boost for La-5. Especially since this is the most applicable. Do a test with 190A-4 at 100% manual pitch vs. La-5 standard, that would be real interesting http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

*La-5 requires proper management in fuel mixture and supercharger switchover.

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Formerly Kyrule2
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[This message was edited by Hunde_3.JG51 on Fri April 23 2004 at 10:24 AM.]

clint-ruin
04-23-2004, 11:53 AM
http://users.bigpond.net.au/gwen/fb/la5vsfw190a4-2.zip

FW190 110% boost, rad closed, speed 545/540, overheat message at ~3.20, engine damage at ~8.20, engine inoperable at ~9.20

La5 100% w/ boost, rad closed, speed 560/555, overheat message at ~3.20, engine damage at ~10.20, engine inoperable at ~11.30

http://users.bigpond.net.au/gwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

Nub_322Sqn
04-23-2004, 12:14 PM
I conducted my tests on the Crimea map, as instructed by Oleg.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~rcma/banners/Nubarusbanner.jpg

Hunde_3.JG51
04-23-2004, 04:05 PM
Yes, speeds are different on Crimea map as I get 542km/h with A-4 on auto and 561km/h with La-5 at sea-level. Haven't timed overheat yet.

But unfortunately we don't always play on Crimea map and my tests still stand. You are welcome to try them yourself. The La-5 not overheating at all climbing to 6,000m and flying at full speed for 10 minutes is as I said, a joke. Not to mention the La-5 exceeding top speed by 13-20km/h at altitude while the A-4 can't even reach top speed.

Will test more Crimea stuff later concerning speeds at altitude and overheat.

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Hunde_3.JG51
04-23-2004, 04:28 PM
Here you go.

Take the La-5 on Crimea map (at 12:00 over the sea as per Oleg) and fly at 6,000m. My max speed was 623km/h (598-605 according to object viewer). And I could not overheat the La-5 AT ALL under max power (rad closed, boost enabled, 100% throttle which is max) until I got bored. Remember supercharger at position 2 and I used 60% fuel mixture.

FW-190A-4 on auto overheated in a few minutes and could only get 640km/h (648km/h in object viewer). On manual it overheated even quicker and could just get to the indicated 648km/h.

I'll have to send this to Oleg.

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clint-ruin
04-23-2004, 04:36 PM
What I'm finding after doing more than a few tests of different planes is that there seems to be an odd relationship between the radiator drag and top speed vs cooling effects. There seems to be a similar effect with all of the jet planes where none [not one] of them overheats at sea level at maximum power as long as the speed is allowed to reach max sea level speed. You'll get overheat warnings in the Go229 and Me262 but as soon as the speed goes above about 650kmh and is kept there they'll never reappear.

Note the way that opening the radiators on the La5 makes almost no difference whatsoever to the time to overheat/engine damage/engine inoperable states with boost engaged. You just lose speed. Similar story with the FW-190A4 where the difference between 100%, radiators closed, and 110%, radiators open seems to be nothing at all. No real difference in top speeds and still no overheat behaviour.

There's a few planes with near identical cooling systems that produce quite remarkably different results [La5/La5f/La5FN, Hurricane MkI/II/FM] that I've found so far. I'm pretty sure that whatever weird radiator drag bug was occuring in 1.11 is still around in some shape or form.

We could all go and test on winter or pacific maps depending on what we would like to cry about specifically, but Oleg has indicated that he considers tests on the Crimea map to be valid data. So that's what I use. I've been recording tracks of this kind of behaviour and submitting them off to Oleg to see if he thinks there is anything unusual going on with this, going through the list of flyables steadily and reporting what they do, recorded with the same settings on the same map.

I can only suggest that you try and do the same if you are finding things you see as ridiculous going on. Almost guaranteed to be more effective than posting an anecdote about it in the forum.

Edit: ahh good. sorry, was writing this when your last message got posted - good that you're sending the data off to oleg.

http://users.bigpond.net.au/gwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

[This message was edited by clint-ruin on Fri April 23 2004 at 04:02 PM.]

Hunde_3.JG51
04-23-2004, 05:55 PM
Like I said, please try my test in last post and see what you get. Compare 190A-4's overheat time with La-5's (if there is one) at 6,000m (rad closed, boost for La, full throttle). Remember CEM for La-5 and you can try 190 with manual and auto. Feel free to check out top speeds too http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

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WWMaxGunz
04-23-2004, 06:50 PM
Prop pitch in manual control 190-A's is critical to engine heat.

Knighton Warbeck has made a training manual for the 190-A9 from FB 1.22 and he let me post it. the gunnery is different from AEP and some of the flying but the main techniques still apply.

It will soon be down so get it while you can.

www.intergate.com/~nealorr (http://www.intergate.com/~nealorr)

Send your thanks to Knighton if you find it useful.

I personally think that at high speeds and 100% power (which means different things in different planes so it's no use comparing by power %'s, try RPM and boost) the use of less than 100% pitch in CSP planes gets me more speed than 100% pitch. Get into climb, slow down, and 100% is a good pull but the extra revs will overheat at least some engines sooner.


Neal

clint-ruin
04-23-2004, 07:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hunde_3.JG51:
Like I said, please try my test in last post and see what you get. Compare 190A-4's overheat time with La-5's (if there is one) at 6,000m (rad closed, boost for La, full throttle). Remember CEM for La-5 and you can try 190 with manual and auto. Feel free to check out top speeds too http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup, checked out 6000m overheat with both rad open and closed and it made no difference regarding overheat, so at least there's no rad open / slowdown / overheat bug at that alt/speed. Getting about ~620kmh for the La5 100% w/ boost/rad closed, no overheat. I believe there may also possibly be a bug with the La5 never running out of boost but I'm not sure what kind of boost system it is exactly. Object data says "10 mins boost" - not sure if that means total or max continuous - if it's max cont. @ sea level/rad closed it's too short, if it's total it never seems to run out. Unfortunately I failed to save the bloody track when I exited the mission. I used 80% mix w/ stage 2 in that test btw, still works at that alt.

The figures for both the La5 and FW190A4 appear to agree almost exactly [~5kmh] with Il2Compare 2.3s' "Max TAS vs Altitude" calculated data at 6000m.

http://users.bigpond.net.au/gwen/fb/fw190a4-6000m.zip

FW190 does 640/635kmh @ 6000m 110% rad closed, overheat message 2.50, engine damage 7.50, engine inoperable 9.20.

FW190 does ~617kmh @ 6000m 110% rad open, never overheats.

I am assuming that this is identical performance to 100% / rad closed as it was with sea level but I didn't test that.

Feel free to link to the files I've listed so far if need be when you send the data to oleg.

So in short:

FW190A4 never seems to overheat with rad open at any power setting at 6000m & 0m.

FW190A4 overheats with 110% rad closed, but not 100% rad closed, at 6000m & 0m

La5 never seems to overheat regardless of power/rad settings at 6000m.

La5 always overheats with both 100% w/ boost, and 100% w/o boost, regardless of rad setting at 0m.

You might want to look into whether there's a rad/throttle setting for the 190A4 that will get you over 617/620 at 6000m without triggering overheat on autopitch - full open @ 110% is a tiny bit too slow and closed @ 110% runs the risk of burning the engine, but there might be something in the middle.

http://users.bigpond.net.au/gwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

Hunde_3.JG51
04-23-2004, 10:44 PM
Glad we finally agree. It is weird that the La-5 overheats at sea-level but not at all at 6,000m. I'll have to check some altitudes in between to see if there is a pattern, I just need a stopwatch http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. The La-5 shouldn't be doing 620km/h+ either at 6,000m or anywhere else. That is 13-20km/h too fast. I really do like the Lavochkin series of aircraft, like I said I have a thing for fast radial engined aircraft, but this has always bothered me. Just too lazy to send it to Oleg but that will change tomorrow.

I'll try to examine the FW-190 overheat points you made and compare it to other planes as well.

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Formerly Kyrule2
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GK.
04-23-2004, 10:49 PM
Anyone wanna comment on Bf-109 overheat time? I havent actually tested it, but with boost enabled it doesnt seem like 10minutes before stated in the flight manual for the bf109, it seems a lot less time than that.

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*Proud Chute Shooter*
"P40's can't out run the zero, so we'll have to outfly them." -Ben Affleck

clint-ruin
04-24-2004, 12:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hunde_3.JG51:
Glad we finally agree. It is weird that the La-5 overheats at sea-level but not at all at 6,000m. I'll have to check some altitudes in between to see if there is a pattern, I just need a stopwatch http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't use a stopwatch and spend ages testing it. Set it up in the FMB, spawn in over the ocean at your desired alt/heading, set time to 1/4, power up / set mix / set pitch / set supercharger / set wep / set radiator, switch to normal time, wait for the plane to hit near the max speed it's going to reach, trim it, then hit 8x ... if you have trimmed the plane right you shouldn't need to correct it much but slow it down to 1x if you drift off course. Then after you have waited a few minutes you should be able to see if it's overheating or not - about 6 minutes at 8x speed is plenty to work out what it's going to do.

When you're done, exit, save the track, open it in the track player, fast forward it at 8x again and notice the very handy little red digital clock ticking away in the bottom right corner. I usually take a couple of goes at it just to make sure I haven't done something wrong the first time. Easy to forget to cycle the radiator or throttle to the correct place after you've done enough of these tests.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
The La-5 shouldn't be doing 620km/h+ either at 6,000m or anywhere else. That is 13-20km/h too fast.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I tend to be less concerned with the speed and more with the overheating issues myself, that's why I started looking into this stuff in the first place.

You realise that 13kmh too fast out of 600kmh is a 2.1% error? This is on a figure that is said to be an averaged performance figure that presumably includes both good and bad manufacturers, too. Not going to be losing sleep over it any more than I am the A4 being 5kmh too fast at sea level. But able to hold that 2.4% over forever with no cooling but cowl ablation is a bit more of a concern as I see it.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
I'll try to examine the FW-190 overheat points you made and compare it to other planes as well.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll tell you straight off that the La5 is actually an extreme exception to the rule in overheating at 100%/rad closed/SL. All the M82-x series engine'd planes do it, along with the IAR 80, Bf109E4 and E7, all Hurricane models .. consequences vary from moderate engine damage [most] to complete engine failure [Hurri MkI only]. And those are actually the only flyables I've found so far that have a problem with 100%/rad closed. All FW-190s, all other Bf-109s save the Emils, P-40s, Ta-152, and a -lot- more, can run like that as long as there's fuel in the tank. It is not looking like the most consistent piece of code in the world, which is why I've been going through it and logging results :&gt;

http://users.bigpond.net.au/gwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

Hunde_3.JG51
04-24-2004, 01:10 AM
Testing method sounds interesting, I'll give it a go though I can't see holding a plane steady at altitude even if trimmed properly at 8x. I will try it though.

If I am going to send a track I might as well mention the high max speed as well. As for the 190 being too fast at sea-level, that is only if you use manual pitch which overheats your craft very quickly. And when you consider that the 190 is about 8km/h under its max speed at altitude using auto then the difference can be up to 28km/h between the two, which is significant enough for me to mention IMO. By itself, maybe not, but since I will be sending track anyway I'll probably mention it.


Your last paragraph certainly saved me some time then http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

http://www.chesterfieldarmament.com/trudgian/ardennesoffensive/ardennes.jpg

Formerly Kyrule2
http://www.jg51.com/

Nub_322Sqn
04-24-2004, 02:15 AM
Hunde, Max speed for FW190-A4 according to the object viewer at sea level is 540 km/h, not 548 km/h.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~rcma/banners/Nubarusbanner.jpg

Fillmore
04-24-2004, 07:16 AM
You can see from Il2_Compare there is something odd about boost on La5, between about 3500 and 5900m it gives practically no performance increase. I suspect that the increase in heat is related to the increase in power, and above 3000m or so there isn't much of any. I'm not sure why the sudden difference at 6000m between with and without boost, while at 5500m there is practically no difference. What is happening at 6000m that makes the boost suddenly more effective?

Long ago (1.0, or maybe 1.1) I did a bunch of testing and found that radiator settings on all La5s had no real effect on overheat, it seems that there is both head temperature and oil temperature and opening radiator lowered one, but not the other. Don't know if it was ever fixed, or even considered a bug, but there are two different temperature guages on the La5s so you can see for yourself if it is still like that.

kubanloewe
04-24-2004, 07:27 AM
i´ve tested the A8 and F8 on crimea map in sealevel flight with wep 110%+boost and open radiators fully; when after a while the engines began to overheat i reduce Power at 100% and wait for message "normal"; then I give power on 105% with full open radiators and the overheat message comes very quickly so I go back to 100% to "normal" then up to 101% and once more again fast overheat ! I couldnt fly with add boost over 98% without overheating and full open radiators. But on the other hand I can fly with 110% at normal boost and full open radiators without overheating.

hm, think it isnt right so http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://home.arcor.de/kubanskiloewe/g14gutspruchsig.jpg
"Finde den Feind und schiesse ihn ab alles andere ist Unsinn"
Rittmeister Freiherr Manfred von Richthofen

Hunde_3.JG51
04-24-2004, 10:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by T-ONub_322Sqn:
Hunde, Max speed for FW190-A4 according to the object viewer at sea level is 540 km/h, not 548 km/h.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~rcma/banners/Nubarusbanner.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


How about reading what I am posting. Yes you can get max speed of 548km/h with 190A-4 at sea-level with 100% manual prop-pitch but your overheat time will be very short, too short to be useful in combat.

I proved the La-5 can fly at maximum power, with boost, radiator closed, at speeds it shouldn't even reach for an infinite period of time. Track sent to Oleg and crew, its up to him now. If anyone else finds any abnormal overheating behavior, please send it to Oleg & team.

http://www.chesterfieldarmament.com/trudgian/ardennesoffensive/ardennes.jpg

Formerly Kyrule2
http://www.jg51.com/

[This message was edited by Hunde_3.JG51 on Sat April 24 2004 at 09:42 AM.]

Nub_322Sqn
04-24-2004, 10:47 AM
So the fact that the FW190 and Bf109 can fly with rad closed at 100% until it runs out of fuel is normal?

Because so far all I saw is talk about the LA5 when the subject is brought up.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~rcma/banners/Nubarusbanner.jpg

Hunde_3.JG51
04-24-2004, 02:21 PM
T-ONub, please find where I said that is normal, you won't. I don't know if it is true, I'll check it out later. I don't know if it is even wrong, ask clint if other planes can do it as well. And what is the big deal if you can fly at 100% with radiator closed. You will be slow as you haven't even engaged boost yet, especially in 109. Who flies in combat without boost, is it that big of a deal if you can cruise faster? If it is wrong or you think it is wrong, do as I have done and send it to Oleg, anyone is allowed to do it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. The La-5 flying at maximum power, rad closed, and boost with no overheat is certainly worse IMO. If I get a chance I will post the speeds of 190 and or 109 with rad closed and no boost, it's not that impressive. Still, if it is wrong it should be brought to Oleg's attention. You can find the e-mail address to report bugs in a sticky at top of ORR.

Edit: Actually Clint already answered this for you, try reading a little bit before posting http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

"I'll tell you straight off that the La5 is actually an extreme exception to the rule in overheating at 100%/rad closed/SL. All the M82-x series engine'd planes do it, along with the IAR 80, Bf109E4 and E7, all Hurricane models .. consequences vary from moderate engine damage [most] to complete engine failure [Hurri MkI only]. And those are actually the only flyables I've found so far that have a problem with 100%/rad closed. All FW-190s, all other Bf-109s save the Emils, P-40s, Ta-152, and a -lot- more, can run like that as long as there's fuel in the tank. It is not looking like the most consistent piece of code in the world, which is why I've been going through it and logging results :&gt;"

You can assume that "alot more" means other Soviet and USAAF aircraft.


http://www.chesterfieldarmament.com/trudgian/ardennesoffensive/ardennes.jpg

Formerly Kyrule2
http://www.jg51.com/

Chromatorg
04-24-2004, 02:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fillmore:
You can see from Il2_Compare there is something odd about boost on La5, between about 3500 and 5900m it gives practically no performance increase. I suspect that the increase in heat is related to the increase in power, and above 3000m or so there isn't much of any. I'm not sure why the sudden difference at 6000m between with and without boost, while at 5500m there is practically no difference. What is happening at 6000m that makes the boost suddenly more effective?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Seems there is a small bug with LA5 boost at critical altitude. According to all RL charts LA5 boost can be engaged only up to about 3500m. Its modelled quite good in FB. Btw, thats why LA5 dont overheat at altitude - in fact, WEP after 3500m means 100% power - so its perfectly right with no overheating. What is NOT right is strange 12 kph speed increase with WEP after 6000m. Notice what with 100% power LA5 does exactly 608 kph at 6000m - as it should according to object viewer. I think here is the root of the problem - bug in boost modelling after critical altitude 6000m.

jurinko
04-24-2004, 02:56 PM
Fw190 overheat much less in beta, dunno about La series

----------------------
Letka.13/Liptow @ HL

"With the advent of the FW 190A, this was not as critical as it once had been. The aircraft was a superb dogfighter, and its pilots used it as such. The previous summer, faced with slashing attacks by the 109s, the constant complaint of RAF pilots was that 'Jerry' didn't stay and fight, totally ignoring the fact that in the 109 this was tactically correct. Now they were repaid in spades: in his new Fw 190A, 'Jerry' stayed and fought as never before."

clint-ruin
04-24-2004, 03:06 PM
I-153M62 - No overheat during test period.

I-16 Type 18 - No overheat during test period

LaGG3 All series [4 66 IT] - No overheat during test period

La5 - Overheat message appears at ~5.30
Engine damage noise occurs at ~12.30
Speed drops from 520kmh to 430kmh
Engine status drops to "Normal" after engine damage noise and no further damage or speed loss occurs during test period

La5F - Overheat message occurs at ~8.30
Engine damage noise occurs at ~15:30
Speed drops from 525kmh to 470kmh
Engine status drops to "Normal" after engine damage noise and no further damage or speed loss occurs during test period

La5FN - Overheat message occurs at ~6.30
Engine damage noise occurs at ~11.30
Speed drops from 555kmh to 470kmh
Engine status drops to "Normal" after engine damage noise and no further damage or speed loss occurs during test period

La7 - Overheat message occurs at ~6.50
Engine damage noise occurs at ~11.30
Speed drops from 575kmh to 505kmh
Engine status drops to "Normal" after engine damage noise and no further damage or speed loss occurs during test period

Mig3 - No overheat during test period
Mig3ud - No overheat during test period
Mig3am38 - No overheat during test period

FW190A4 - No overheat during test period
FW190A5 - No overheat during test period
FW190F8 - No overheat during test period
FW190D944 - No overheat during test period
Ta152 - No overheat during test period

Me-262A1A - Overheats during spool to top speed at sea level / 100%, but after passing ~650kmh overheat message disappears and does not reappear for duration of test. 100% throttle SL top speed is enough to cool engines below overheat threshold.

Go-229a - Overheats during spool to top speed at sea level / 100%, but after passing ~650kmh overheat message disappears and does not reappear for duration of test. 100% throttle SL top speed is enough to cool engines below overheat threshold.

He162 - No overheat during test period

YP-80 - No overheat during test period

Hurricane Mk1:
Overheat message appears at ~2.10
Engine damage noise occurs at ~7.10
Speed starts to drop from 395kmh downwards after engine damage, but at ~8.20 the engine status switches to "inoperable" and plane crash lands.

Hurricane MkIIb:
Overheat message appears at ~3.10
Engine damage noise occurs at ~7.50
Speed drops from 395kmh to 260kmh after engine damage
Engine status drops to "Normal" after engine damage noise and no further damage or speed loss occurs during test period

Hurricane MkII Field Mod
Overheat message appears at ~3.10
Engine damage noise occurs at ~8.20
Speed drops drop 405kmh to 270kmh after engine damage
Engine status drops to "Normal" after engine damage noise and no further damage or speed loss occurs during test period

P40E: No overheat during test period
P40M: No overheat during test period
P40M105: No overheat during test period

P38J: No overheat during test period
P38L: No overheat during test period

A6M2: No overheat during test period
A6M5: No overheat during test period

P39N1: No overheat during test period
P39Q1: No overheat during test period
P39Q10: No overheat during test period

P63C: No overheat during test period

Bf110G2: Overheat message appears at ~6.00
Engine damage noise occurs at ~11.00
Speed drops from 470kmh to 390kmh after engine damage
Engine status drops to "Normal" after engine damage noise and no further damage or speed loss occurs during test period

Bf109E4: Overheat message appears at ~6.30
Engine damage noise occurs at ~11.30
Speed drops from 450kmh to 400kmh after engine damage
Engine status drops to "Normal" after engine damage noise and no further damage or speed loss occurs during test period

Bf109E7Z: Overheat message appears at ~6.50
Engine damage noise occurs at ~11.40
Speed drops from 470kmh to 420kmh after engine damage
Engine status drops to "Normal" after engine damage noise and no further damage or speed loss occurs during test period

Bf109F2: No overheat during test period
Bf109G2: No overheat during test period
Bf109G6: No overheat during test period
Bf109K4: No overheat during test period

Those are the ones I've logged so far at 100%/rad closed/sea level. I've been just going through doing the tests without logging them lately rather than test/log/test/log, but I can tell you that not overheating at 100% no boost/rad closed/sl is not exceptional in FB. In fact when I first found the Lagg 3s as a whole not doing it I thought it was some kind of mistake and that they were the problem, but the more I tested the more I found that could also do it.

Whether you want to interpret the La5 overheating being "a joke" because it does not overheat at 6000m, or because it does at 0m [unlike almost every other plane], is up to you :&gt;

http://users.bigpond.net.au/gwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

BBB_Hyperion
04-24-2004, 03:32 PM
Seems you guys miss something the Boost System on La5 / La7 is limited to 3500 m cause its kind of high gear supercharger mod that has no effect over this alt. So this Plane even when shown Forzah activated is not available at this alt.

Another thing to the overheating is the lack of cooling effect at alt there are even orders that tell to close radiators to not undercool engines
thats very clear when you look at the temperatures at alt. about 1 degrees each 100 m is lost .

-0.65 ?C / 100 m Temp loss.

Ground level
0 15?C
1000 8,5
2000 2
3000 -4,5
4000 -11
5000 -17,5
6000 -24
7000 -30,5
8000 -37
9000 -43,5
10000 -50
&gt;10000 -56 const

As you see here with about -24 ?C it should be cold up there if La5 La7 or 190.

Regards,
Hyperion

Willey
04-24-2004, 03:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by T-ONub_322Sqn:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
u can back hurri/spit to zero power itll cool off quick, but yes it is strange compared to the other planes

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg
&lt;123_GWood_JG123&gt; NO SPAM!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You can't do that in the middle of a dogfight, you loose too much speed and altitude so your still toast in a Spit/Hurri when you overheat your engine.

Cooling down an air cooled radial engine without additional airflow at 99% throttle and auto pitch within a few seconds is completely wrong.

But I am sure it will be fixed in the next patch for all planes.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~rcma/banners/Nubarusbanner.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Cool down before the fight. Everythime I fly online I see almost every guy flying 100% all the time. No wonder they have overheat problems. Fly with 50% and open rads, you're slower then, but after the merge you'll have a lot more full power time. I hardly have problems even in 109s, and they never changed since Il-2. The only change is the general radiator drag in FB 1.2 which made flying with opened coolers more efficient. I usually hardly shut them, just if I need every bit of speed. Nothing is more painful than to be in a hard fight with 3mins overheating engine.

All liquid cooled engines need lower throttle to cool down whine radials cool down quite quick even at 80-100%. Try the Lavochkin or the P-47, they aren't far different to the FW.

Willey
04-24-2004, 04:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by clint-ruin:
Something else weird.

Just went and did some testing in 2.00.


http://users.bigpond.net.au/gwen/fb/fw190a4vsla5.zip

Tests included are:

La5, 100% throttle, rad open - overheat message at ~5.20, engine damage at ~12.20, top speed 505/500kmh, down to ~435/430 with engine damage.

La5, 100% throttle, rad open, boost engaged - overheat message at ~3.10, engine damaged at ~10.00, engine inoperable at ~12.00, top speed 535/530kmh

FW-190A4, 100% throttle, rad open, no overheat message after 35 minutes of testing, top speed 505/500kmh.

FW-190A4, part of same test as above, after 35 minutes of 100%/rad open, tested 100%/rad closed. Still no overheat message of any kind and no engine damage, top speed 525/520kmh

FW-190A4 with 110% throttle with rad open, no overheat message of any kind and no engine damage, top speed 525/520kmh.

I haven't tested the A4 at 110/rad closed because I got bored, but if someone wants to, go for it - I have done about 45 or so of these for differnt planes so far and I'm getting really bored with it.

All Crimea, 12:00, 100% fuel, CEM, radiators manually toggled to "open" or "closed", sea level.

Perhaps I am just doing this wrong, but I'd be very interested to see what is supposed to be so bad about the FW-190s overheating behaviour and what makes the La5s so "resistant to overheating" or "a joke".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You just took the right http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif La. Try 5F, 5FN or 7 instead. 100% is MAX power in the 5 '42. No wonder it gets hot. A TB-3 M-17 also overheats with 100%.
As far as I know there's a "bug" in FB overheat, and it doesn't even overheat at 105/rad closed, if you're fast enough. It's not a real bug, because cooling was affected by speed quite much. Most planes don't feature that correctly and instead of saying, one is wrong it's rather correct to say all are wrong.
As for the A-4 - it's derated to Steig&Kampfleistung which could be used for 10 minutes in the A-4. Don't know it exactly. When you're going at 100%, you've got less power which can be used 30mins maybe. Normally it would have the same power the A-5 has, but just for a single minute. And it definately overheats with 110% + rads opened. Happened to me already several times (did you keep 520km/h?). Also, it depends on the map. Try Krim or the Pacific DF map. Smolensk is cooler already.

clint-ruin
04-24-2004, 04:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BBB_Hyperion:
Seems you guys miss something the Boost System on La5 / La7 is limited to 3500 m cause its kind of high gear supercharger mod that has no effect over this alt. So this Plane even when shown Forzah activated is not available at this alt.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Aaah..

I was seeing a small boost with Forzahz enabled at higher alt but now I look at it ..

http://users.bigpond.net.au/gwen/fb/la5power-3500.jpg

http://users.bigpond.net.au/gwen/fb/la5power-6000.jpg

So basically at 6000m the La5 is really running with "100%" power with no boost, so the overheat isn't the issue there so much as it's just too fast.

Thanks, wasn't clear what kind of boost it was using.


edit: for some reason i had a brainfart and put up the la5fn rather than la5. fixed now.

http://users.bigpond.net.au/gwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

[This message was edited by clint-ruin on Sat April 24 2004 at 03:41 PM.]

clint-ruin
04-24-2004, 04:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Willey:
You just took the right http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif La. Try 5F, 5FN or 7 instead. 100% is MAX power in the 5 '42. No wonder it gets hot. A TB-3 M-17 also overheats with 100%.
As far as I know there's a "bug" in FB overheat, and it doesn't even overheat at 105/rad closed, if you're fast enough. It's not a real bug, because cooling was affected by speed quite much. Most planes don't feature that correctly and instead of saying, one is wrong it's rather correct to say all are wrong.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is no 105% in the La5 and La5F. There is 100% + Forsazh, and 100%.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>As for the A-4 - it's derated to Steig&Kampfleistung which could be used for 10 minutes in the A-4. Don't know it exactly. When you're going at 100%, you've got less power which can be used 30mins maybe. Normally it would have the same power the A-5 has, but just for a single minute. And it definately overheats with 110% + rads opened. Happened to me already several times (did you keep 520km/h?). Also, it depends on the map. Try Krim or the Pacific DF map. Smolensk is cooler already.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have tracks linked in a number of posts in this thread if you would like to see the La5 / FW190A4 results for yourself. The FW-190A4 does not overheat at 110% / Radiator open in the test conditions described, nor 100% / rad closed. In fact that test is the longest running one of the lot, over an hour or so under those conditions all up, I think. Take a look for yourself.

Top speed is held to within about 5kmh allowing for yaw/trim adjustments, generally tried to hold the alt within 50m of the initial alt but it's ******* hard to do with a gamepad.

As I mentioned in another post, we could go test on the pacific or winter maps depending on what we want to cry about, but I'd prefer to test it all on the same map that Oleg has told people to use if it's all the same to you.

edit: sorry, didn't mean to sound as snarky as that in the post. I agree totally that there does seem to be a bug in the speed / radiator / cooling model for all planes :&gt;

http://users.bigpond.net.au/gwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

[This message was edited by clint-ruin on Sat April 24 2004 at 03:47 PM.]

Hunde_3.JG51
04-24-2004, 04:37 PM
Thanks for explanations, would make more sense. Still, people will have to decide whether running at 100% throttle with radiator closed and not overheating is correct. However, I do consider the La-5 ('42) speeding around at 624km/h at 6,000m (19-26km/h too high) without overheating a joke while the 190A-4 can only get to top speed by baking its engine quickly using 100% manual prop-pitch. Especially since I believe this was/has been the case since FB 1.0. With the La-5's high speed and the 190's inability to even get to top speed effectively/efficiently is fairly significant IMO. Either way I sent the track and hopefully it will be looked at, whether it is an overheat, boost, or speed issue.

http://www.chesterfieldarmament.com/trudgian/ardennesoffensive/ardennes.jpg

Formerly Kyrule2
http://www.jg51.com/

Nub_322Sqn
04-25-2004, 02:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hunde_3.JG51:
T-ONub, please find where I said that is normal, you won't. I don't know if it is true, I'll check it out later. I don't know if it is even wrong, ask clint if other planes can do it as well. And what is the big deal if you can fly at 100% with radiator closed. You will be slow as you haven't even engaged boost yet, especially in 109. Who flies in combat without boost, is it that big of a deal if you can cruise faster? If it is wrong or you think it is wrong, do as I have done and send it to Oleg, anyone is allowed to do it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. The La-5 flying at maximum power, rad closed, and boost with no overheat is certainly worse IMO. If I get a chance I will post the speeds of 190 and or 109 with rad closed and no boost, it's not that impressive. Still, if it is wrong it should be brought to Oleg's attention. You can find the e-mail address to report bugs in a sticky at top of ORR.

Edit: Actually Clint already answered this for you, try reading a little bit before posting http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

"I'll tell you straight off that the La5 is actually an extreme exception to the rule in overheating at 100%/rad closed/SL. All the M82-x series engine'd planes do it, along with the IAR 80, Bf109E4 and E7, all Hurricane models .. consequences vary from moderate engine damage [most] to complete engine failure [Hurri MkI only]. And those are actually the only flyables I've found so far that have a problem with 100%/rad closed. All FW-190s, all other Bf-109s save the Emils, P-40s, Ta-152, and a -lot- more, can run like that as long as there's fuel in the tank. It is not looking like the most consistent piece of code in the world, which is why I've been going through it and logging results :&gt;"

You can assume that "alot more" means other Soviet and USAAF aircraft.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>]

And the funny thing is that most here claim that the Spitfire is completely wrong in the overheat department but the Spitfire cannot fly with 100%/closed rad until it runs out of fuel.
Even at 80% throttle and 80% prop pitch and rad open in position 4 it will overheat, yet all are screaming here to fix this bug on the vastly overmodelled Spitfire.
The American Pxx planes are the same actually, I never overheated that plane as far as I can remember.

And only talking about cruising faster is rubbish, if you close the rad and constantly fly at 100% you can fight very well like that, especially in B&Z attack because the closed rad reduces drag a lot.
And when you use 100% or boost you can simply trottle down to 100% with the rad still closed to cool down the engine.
Not to mention that your opponent cannot keep on going like that and as the fight progresses you can keep flying at this output while your opponent has to lower and lower his engine output to compensate for overheating.

All planes should be looked at, but when it was brought up some time ago several Axis players started to defend the overheat times on their precious Axis birds, they even labled the original poster a biased red whiner and a spammer.

According to them all the Allied planes need to be fixed in the overheat department and toned down because they are vastly overmodelled and the Axis planes need to be beefed up because they still suck.

Talk about having a hidden agenda.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~rcma/banners/Nubarusbanner.jpg

clint-ruin
04-25-2004, 03:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by T-ONub_322Sqn:
Talk about having a hidden agenda.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

With the new moderation regime I think it's probably wiser not to point such things out by yourself and simply let the data do the talking. I am sure that if data on the Spitfire Vbs overheating behaviour is submitted to Maddox in the proper manner it will be looked at in the patch. Whatever extreme it's at right now.

For what it's worth I would consider pretty much any plane running at 100% / radiators closed / sea level without ever overheating to be very generous modelling, whichever side it flies for. I don't know where this heat is supposed to be going exactly. At high alt or maybe for the early war biplanes with low power there might be some explanation, but I don't know where exactly heat can get out if you totally close the radiators on an inline engine.

http://users.bigpond.net.au/gwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

Nub_322Sqn
04-25-2004, 03:18 AM
Like I said, the beta testers should check it on all planes, not just the ones that people from one side cry the most about.

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clint-ruin
04-25-2004, 03:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by T-ONub_322Sqn:
Like I said, the beta testers should check it on all planes, not just the ones that people from one side cry the most about.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am sure that someone is probably testing overheating aspects for all planes for the patch.

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Hunde_3.JG51
04-25-2004, 10:12 AM
Again T-OBub, I never called the original poster anything. I never said anything about the Spitfire. In past threads I said that I think the Spitfire takes too long to overheat, but it is too hard to cool down. That's all I ever said and I don't think anything is wrong with that.

As far as the 100% throttle and radiator closed without overheat I still don't think it is a real adavantage. However as I said in my last post if it is wrong it should be fixed, I don't have the answer I'll let others discuss it/report it. There are alot of planes that can do this on both sides (I'll take Clint's word for it) and if it is indeed wrong then it should be checked.

And I agree, all planes should be looked at and there is certainly many biased people here with hidden agenda's, but I haven not said anything to warrant putting me in that catagory (not saying you did, I'm just saying). I made a statement and I backed it up, and I complimented the Lavochkin series which I really do like believe it or not.


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Nub_322Sqn
04-25-2004, 10:24 AM
And your telling me to read before posting Hunde?

Please point out where I accused you for calling anyone something?

I guess you failed to notice I was talking about a different thread posted some time ago.

The ones who started bashing the topic starter are the die hard luftwhiners over here, and I never said you belong to that group.

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Hunde_3.JG51
04-25-2004, 11:10 AM
"And I agree, all planes should be looked at and there is certainly many biased people here with hidden agenda's, but I haven not said anything to warrant putting me in that catagory (not saying you did, I'm just saying)."


This is from my last post, please note the last part http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

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hop2002
04-25-2004, 11:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>For what it's worth I would consider pretty much any plane running at 100% / radiators closed / sea level without ever overheating to be very generous modelling, whichever side it flies for. I don't know where this heat is supposed to be going exactly. At high alt or maybe for the early war biplanes with low power there might be some explanation, but I don't know where exactly heat can get out if you totally close the radiators on an inline engine.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Spit LF IX cooling report shows tests conducted with radiators closed for 10 mins of cruising, followed by 5 mins at maximum power (110%), still with the radiators closed. Under tropical conditions, the plane was nowhere near overheating at the end of 5 mins of full power. Under temperate conditions, it was even futher from overheating.

On the Spit IX at least, closed radiators were not fully closed. With the radiators open, exit area was about 1.5 sq/ft. With the radiators closed, it was 0.83 sq/ft.

I don't know if that's the case for all aircraft, but Spit radiators at leaset cannot be fully closed, and on the IX should be adequate to prevent overheating in level flight no matter how long is flown at full throttle, with rads shut.

About the only way to overheat the Spit IX should be with long climbs at 110% with radiators closed. The cooling report found that in temperate conditions, a 110% climb from 2000ft to 32000ft resulted in the coolant reaching maximum at the very end of the climb with radiators shut, but overheated during the climb in tropical conditions.

[This message was edited by hop2002 on Sun April 25 2004 at 11:00 AM.]

[This message was edited by hop2002 on Sun April 25 2004 at 11:25 AM.]

clint-ruin
04-25-2004, 01:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hop2002:
About the only way to overheat the Spit IX should be with long climbs at 110% with radiators closed. The cooling report found that in temperate conditions, a 110% climb from 2000ft to 32000ft resulted in the coolant reaching maximum at the very end of the climb with radiators shut, but overheated during the climb in tropical conditions.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ahh .. thanks for the explanation. I figured that the radiator probably wouldn't totally and completely close in some cases, but the graphical effect for closing them in FB [for most planes] seems to show a hermetic seal on the rad flap. As I mentioned upthread, I am getting more and more sure that there is some kind of problem with radiator/slowdown/cooling effects generally, where opening the radiators slows the plane down and actually increases the chances of overheating in some circumstances. But I'm still working on tracking it down to anything exactly.

The tests I have done only presume to test SL 100% / rad closed speed, not climbs or combat climbs or anything else. That will always be a different story as far as overheating goes. Since it is much more complicated to device "acceptable" climb tests per plane using the proper speed schedule/radiator/etc settings, straight line speed is what I'm doing since that's pretty much the same story for every plane without variation. I'm just not smart enough to do everything in climb tests on different maps all by myself :&gt;

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