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nyrue
04-24-2017, 01:17 AM
its as simple as two words, CHIP DAMAGE, every fighting game I have ever played has chip damage its the pressure to do more than block

the base chip damage on heavy attacks needs to be increased by 15-25% also feint window needs to be narrowed to the start up frames of an attack only to prevent your enemy from feinting in response to your feint

additionally i would suggest removing the ability to GB interrupt during a feint to compliment the afore mention changes

S0Mi_xD
04-24-2017, 01:41 AM
its as simple as two words, CHIP DAMAGE, every fighting game I have ever played has chip damage its the pressure to do more than block

the base chip damage on heavy attacks needs to be increased by 15-25% also feint window needs to be narrowed to the start up frames of an attack only to prevent your enemy from feinting in response to your feint

additionally i would suggest removing the ability to GB interrupt during a feint to compliment the afore mention changes

Chip damage is a good start to beginn with, but an increase by 75% - 100% would be needed. Current chip damage goes from 1-6.

+ 1-3 CD are nearly every hero is capable of. -> i would say here an increase of 100% (2-6)
+ 4-5 Only Warden, Shugoki, Kensei and Raider -> here 75 % (7-8) or (7-9)
+ and 6 Chip damage the berserk Top heavy but only in combo.and this one aswell 75% (10) or(11)
(Values Table) (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wwr17AtTDFU3BZY_81axLVMKdHdNZuV0wGOb589VKgc/htmlview?sle=true#)

Narrow down the faint window isn't a way to fix the Def Meta - it would hit the Attack side very hard (especialy kensai, raider, berserker)

The number one of the def meta is still parry, to limit parry the best way (without destroying this mechanic ) would be to give parring a significant increase in stamina cost.

(Also limiting parry with stamina costs would boost the current revenge mode)

nyrue
04-24-2017, 02:18 AM
Chip damage is a good start to beginn with, but an increase by 75% - 100% would be needed. Current chip damage goes from 1-6.

+ 1-3 CD are nearly every hero is capable of. -> i would say here an increase of 100% (2-6)
+ 4-5 Only Warden, Shugoki, Kensei and Raider -> here 75 % (7-8) or (7-9)
+ and 6 Chip damage the berserk Top heavy but only in combo.and this one aswell 75% (10) or(11)
(Values Table) (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wwr17AtTDFU3BZY_81axLVMKdHdNZuV0wGOb589VKgc/htmlview?sle=true#)

Narrow down the faint window isn't a way to fix the Def Meta - it would hit the Attack side very hard (especialy kensai, raider, berserker)

The number one of the def meta is still parry, to limit parry the best way (without destroying this mechanic ) would be to give parring a significant increase in stamina cost.

(Also limiting parry with stamina costs would boost the current revenge mode)

I encourage you to rethink your position, feints as they are, can and are used in reaction to other feints meaning you don't have to commit to anything. if feinting could only be done on start up you could no longer feint in response to another players feints, and that's quite a dramatic increase to chip damage your suggesting, I favor a subtle increase, you have to take into account 4v4 modes where you have 2-4 players wacking at you like a piniata blocking still needs to be effective, and i'm not sure how I feel about parries costing stamina at first thought it seems like a bad idea but i'll have to give it some more thought

S0Mi_xD
04-24-2017, 02:56 AM
I encourage you to rethink your position, feints as they are, can and are used in reaction to other feints meaning you don't have to commit to anything. if feinting could only be done on start up you could no longer feint in response to another players feints, and that's quite a dramatic increase to chip damage your suggesting, I favor a subtle increase, you have to take into account 4v4 modes where you have 2-4 players wacking at you like a piniata blocking still needs to be effective, and i'm not sure how I feel about parries costing stamina at first thought it seems like a bad idea but i'll have to give it some more thought

I know what you want, but think about it yourself.
Ok let's say it will happen like you suggested it. (Don't forget current def-meta #1, isn't block, it is parry)

Fainting is in response to a faint is the only way to go against the Parry-Meta.
People are baiting heavies with faints. And if you can't take back you move you will be punished hard.

Sure your suggestion does make sense, because when you can't take the parry attamp back by fainting people will block instead of parrying. + raising the chip damage would bring the defender in a huge disadvantage from Blocking(chip damage) and a high risk of being parried when the try to parry.
The problem here is: Parry Meta would still exist but paired with bashing the defence meta.
(if i am wrong please correct me :) )
It's not like i completly dislike your idea, just think there is a better way.


Now i'll explain why stamina cost on parry would be also a viable way in combination with the current faint mechanic:
Like i explaind here (http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1633072-THAT-s-what-we-need!!!-ADD-you-Opinion-and-maybe-some-Ideas!)

Limiting Parry by raising its stamina cost to at least 1/4 (like i said, it would need test to know how much would be a good amount)
You are just able to use 4 parries in a row with full stamina. That means you can't just parry every move, so you need to block or dodge, or deflect.
When you parry but you are out of stamina you can't have a safe hit or free gb and you are in a huge disadvantage -> that means you need to watch you stamina.
Now if you faint, it do cost a good amount of stamina and gets you very fast into exhaustion if you are spamming them.
To many faints = Low stamina = limiting parry
To many parries = low stamina = limiting faints

In this way we can have 2 great mechanics that are working for defence and attack and for some specific heroes is important(faint)
Without limiting them to much, but let them limit themselfes.

Like i say, stamina is the masterkey doesn't matter what you are doing, and if you out of it you are very punishable.

Edit: also i think a good idea would be slow down the stamina regain when you are blocking

nyrue
04-24-2017, 03:07 AM
first off I can for the most part discern between a feint and a commited attack, this is a skill and should be more rewarding, second i'm not suggesting you no longer be able to feint in response to feints i'm just suggesting that it be more difficult

S0Mi_xD
04-24-2017, 03:41 AM
first off I can for the most part discern between a feint and a commited attack, this is a skill and should be more rewarding, second i'm not suggesting you no longer be able to feint in response to feints i'm just suggesting that it be more difficult

Mh ok misunderstood it abit, but still it would differ in the direction i mentioned.

distinguish between faint and a commited attack is indeed a skill but not that hard to obtain (it's more difficult to see throug the faint game of different heroes)
and currently the reward out of this can be a GB or a parry or a heavy/light
In general I am not against your idea to make fainting abit more difficult:
But as a berzerker i can say, it is already hard to keep up the faint game especially when i do faint a heavy in my infinit chain, because in the chain the faint windows are already smaller then te basic attacks.
And Zerker isn't the only one who would be really hard affected by it.

But if you limit parry it would affect every hero in the same way, because there is no hero who needs to rely more on this mechanic than others.

Edit: Ok maybe Raider would get some real stamina problems, but i think he needs a small rework anyway... his stamina houshold is terrible....

nyrue
04-24-2017, 03:59 AM
I recently picked up the zerker and I know exactly what your talking about, that's how difficult regular feinting should be, ( I would leave his infinite chain feint difficulty as is)

kweassa1917
04-24-2017, 04:27 AM
Chip damage alone won't solve the turtle meta since the potential profit of chip damage through proactive offense, does not outweigh the potential profit expected through reactive defense in the form of blocks and parries.Even with block damage(FH's official terminology) , going on the offensive is way too risky with a huge potential to backfire in that it leads to counter attack damage way too easily. Shield classes can just block attacks and get a guranteed GB in some cases -- which leads to guaranteed heavy damage. Being parried also leads to all sorts of heavy damage. By not attacking first and simply reacting to your opponent's attacks, not only do you take less risks and are more safe, but also gains higher potential to land heavy amounts of damage that is guaranteed. As long as this stands, people will still choose to block and parry, rather than swing their weapons in an offensive.

The key to breaking the turtle meta is to remove the offense from the defense. The turtle meta is born out of the reality that is "DEFENSE = OFFENSE" in FH.

So not only block damage, but also guaranteed forms of attack that are stronger than basic lights, should be removed from blocks and parries -- so that people could still take risks to attack fiercely, without having to worry about their every attack backfiring on them.


IMO, the following would be the very basic requirements to form a offense-oriented, more dynamic gameplay.

-- noticeable block damage
-- no guaranteed heavies on GB
-- no guaranteed heavies on parry
-- no guaranteed GBs on any normal light, heavy block, only high-risk, slow recovery moves like big zone attacks
-- parries receive no block damage
-- shield classes receive no block damage
-- parries still lead to guaranteed GBs

The following Optional fixes would supplement the new meta more adequately to make the game more choice-based and tactical,

-- GB mechanic changed: light, heavy, directional input options available
-- GB+light: counted as 1st attack of chain, very small damage,dazes on hit
-- GB+heavy: knockdown move with light damage, no guaranteed hits after knockdown
-- GB+direction: position switch as we have now
-- GB+light counter: press light button, blocks attack and breaks from GB
-- GB+heavy counter: press heavy button, resists knockdown and damage, breaks from GB
-- GB-direction: press opposite direction of enemy input, resists position change and breaks from GB


Under these changes, the combatants would be much more free to try attack moves, since blocked/parried attacks will not immediately lead to unavoidable damage, and forcing blocks would be a good way to deal some damage through block damage.

If you successfully blocks or defend an attack, it won't give you immediate guaranteed heavy damage, but it will switch the initiative over to you. You are given a choice to go for a guaranteed light damage for immediate results. Since parrying stuff like heavies will still give you guaranteed GBs, going for a GB would also be an option.

Of course that GB will also not give you any guaranteed heavies, but more options to press on your attack. You may go for a GB+light button daze move which also counts as a first attack of chained combo -- so while not guaranteed to hit, you will be somewhat likely to be able to land combos. Or, if in a team situation, you may go for a GB+heavy as a disabler move to throw down the opponent., This doesn't guarantee you any heavy attacks, but it will be ideal opportunity for your team to attack. Or you may want to switch positions to throw the enemy over a ledge as it is now. But the difference is all these moves are counterable, so if the opponent guesses correctly, he is given a chance to avoid damage and disadvantage from GB.

These changes will also have a positive side effect of diversifying the need for different gear stats, many of which are considered lackluster currently.

For example,.a bit safer environment with more aggressive attacks would naturally bring up the importance of stamina-related options, as opposed to the reactive turtle meta which hardly used any attacks and combos except after parries, hence stamina usually considered worthless. The GB+light daze/1st chain move will also mean all of the classes now have a potential to use at least one dazing move, which might offer debuff resistance as a possible build option.

My 2 cents.

nyrue
04-24-2017, 04:52 AM
Chip damage alone won't solve the turtle meta since the potential profit of chip damage through proactive offense, does not outweigh the potential profit expected through reactive defense in the form of blocks and parries.Even with block damage(FH's official terminology) , going on the offensive is way too risky with a huge potential to backfire in that it leads to counter attack damage way too easily. Shield classes can just block attacks and get a guranteed GB in some cases -- which leads to guaranteed heavy damage. Being parried also leads to all sorts of heavy damage. By not attacking first and simply reacting to your opponent's attacks, not only do you take less risks and are more safe, but also gains higher potential to land heavy amounts of damage that is guaranteed. As long as this stands, people will still choose to block and parry, rather than swing their weapons in an offensive.

The key to breaking the turtle meta is to remove the offense from the defense. The turtle meta is born out of the reality that is "DEFENSE = OFFENSE" in FH.

So not only block damage, but also guaranteed forms of attack that are stronger than basic lights, should be removed from blocks and parries -- so that people could still take risks to attack fiercely, without having to worry about their every attack backfiring on them.


IMO, the following would be the very basic requirements to form a offense-oriented, more dynamic gameplay.

-- noticeable block damage
-- no guaranteed heavies on GB
-- no guaranteed heavies on parry
-- no guaranteed GBs on any normal light, heavy block, only high-risk, slow recovery moves like big zone attacks
-- parries receive no block damage
-- shield classes receive no block damage
-- parries still lead to guaranteed GBs

The following Optional fixes would supplement the new meta more adequately to make the game more choice-based and tactical,

-- GB mechanic changed: light, heavy, directional input options available
-- GB+light: counted as 1st attack of chain, very small damage,dazes on hit
-- GB+heavy: knockdown move with light damage, no guaranteed hits after knockdown
-- GB+direction: position switch as we have now
-- GB+light counter: press light button, blocks attack and breaks from GB
-- GB+heavy counter: press heavy button, resists knockdown and damage, breaks from GB
-- GB-direction: press opposite direction of enemy input, resists position change and breaks from GB


Under these changes, the combatants would be much more free to try attack moves, since blocked/parried attacks will not immediately lead to unavoidable damage, and forcing blocks would be a good way to deal some damage through block damage.

If you successfully blocks or defend an attack, it won't give you immediate guaranteed heavy damage, but it will switch the initiative over to you. You are given a choice to go for a guaranteed light damage for immediate results. Since parrying stuff like heavies will still give you guaranteed GBs, going for a GB would also be an option.

Of course that GB will also not give you any guaranteed heavies, but more options to press on your attack. You may go for a GB+light button daze move which also counts as a first attack of chained combo -- so while not guaranteed to hit, you will be somewhat likely to be able to land combos. Or, if in a team situation, you may go for a GB+heavy as a disabler move to throw down the opponent., This doesn't guarantee you any heavy attacks, but it will be ideal opportunity for your team to attack. Or you may want to switch positions to throw the enemy over a ledge as it is now. But the difference is all these moves are counterable, so if the opponent guesses correctly, he is given a chance to avoid damage and disadvantage from GB.

My 2 cents. I did not understand your meaning in most of this post, perhaps you could edit it and be a little clearer like "-- GB mechanic changed: light, heavy, directional input options available" ?

also that gave me an idea, what if you had to parry light attacks with light imput and heavies with heavy imput?

kweassa1917
04-24-2017, 09:39 AM
I did not understand your meaning in most of this post, perhaps you could edit it and be a little clearer like "-- GB mechanic changed: light, heavy, directional input options available" ?

Ah, I meant in a way similar to how other fighting games have grapple moves, so basically a GB is a "grapple" initiator, and if GB lands, then you have time to input 3 different commands.

Hence, "GB to grapple, and then light, heavy, or direction input will bring out 3 different types of attacks". So, GBs will still be the same as we have it now, and parrying will still give you GB that cannot be CGBd, but instead of having 100% probability of inflicting free, guaranteed heavy damage to the opponent, it will have a 33% probability of landing one of three different effects, because each of the 3 different types of moves after a successful GB can be countered.

So, in my idea...

GB→Light
- Grapple the opponent, and land a quick, special, unique looking attack (like maybe weapon hilt bashing) for each class and daze the opponent. This will basically give all classes access to the screen-whitening daze/stun effect, not just some classes, and will also count as a 1st move of a combo move, so a practical application would be GB→Light→dazed→continue with 2nd and 3rd combo attacks. You will be able to counter this move by pressing Light button if after you've been grappled by GB. Classes that already have a GB→Light special attack, for example the PK stabs, will do that action instead of the the 'daze' move, and this can ALSO be countered by Light input.

GB→Heavy
- Grapple the opponent, and throw him down to the ground using unique looking grapple moves with small, token amount of damage. This move will have high recovery time for the initiator as well, so even if you throw the opponent down you won't be able to land a guaranteed heavy attack, but just enough time to land a light attack. This is more of a utility move than damage move, and let all classes have some sort of basic disabler move, instead of only select few classes having grabs and knockdown moves. Can be countered by pressing Heavy button after you've been GBd.

GB→direction input
- Same as we have now, direction input forces position change. But now, by pressing opposite direction of what the opponent inputs, you can resist it. So, for example, you have a cliff to your back, and the opponent GBs you. He will of course input the direction towards you to "push" you off the ledge -- at which point, you press the direction button oppositely, towards the opponent, to resist. So now, even if you have been GBd near a ledge, you have a chance to counter and resist falling to your death. The opponent may utilize this as in a mindgame, and use something other than pushing, since 9 times out of 10 the opponent with a cliff to his back will try to resist the fall... and will not risk trying to counter light or heavy GB moves.

As for certain cases where a class has GB→GB move, for example a Kensei special GB move that counts as 2nd attack to combo, or Nobushi special GB move that kicks, or Raider special GB move that carries the opponent, same principle applies, press "GB" after being GBd to counter and resist the move.

Hence, like mentioned, more like branching grapple moves in a standard fighting game.



also that gave me an idea, what if you had to parry light attacks with light imput and heavies with heavy imput?

The difficulty is gonna go through the roof, and the high skill level players will love it for being hardcore... but IMO the average skill level players will be doomed... I think.

nyrue
04-24-2017, 11:00 AM
The difficulty is gonna go through the roof, and the high skill level players will love it for being hardcore... but IMO the average skill level players will be doomed... I think.

lol yeah plus it would make taking on multiple opponents much too difficult,

S0Mi_xD
04-24-2017, 12:06 PM
kweassa1917

I do appreciate your 2 cents.

It's not that bad of an idea BUT. . .
here i quote you "Hence, like mentioned, more like branching grapple moves in a standard fighting game. "

For Honor isn't a standard Beat'em Up, it's kind of mix between a bad version of Desiny and a Combat system that is quite unique.
I doubt Ubi does want a Beat'em Up, aswell as your suggestions abit to much of a change for For Honors combat system and abit to complicated.

Even just the changing to Parry lights with lights and parry heavy with heavy would be an huge change. I do came up with it aswell some weeks ago but dropped it because there are some Heros who have specific attacks with lights after/while a block and it would be make it much harder in 4v4.

Thats the problem with For Honor and you suggestion, it's not a 1v1 or 2v2 in 2D/3D like streetfighter, tekken, Soulcalibur.

kweassa1917
04-24-2017, 12:21 PM
kweassa1917

I do appreciate your 2 cents.

It's not that bad of an idea BUT. . .
here i quote you "Hence, like mentioned, more like branching grapple moves in a standard fighting game. "

For Honor isn't a standard Beat'em Up, it's kind of mix between a bad version of Desiny and a Combat system that is quite unique.
I doubt Ubi does want a Beat'em Up, aswell as your suggestions abit to much of a change for For Honors combat system and abit to complicated.

Even just the changing to Parry lights with lights and parry heavy with heavy would be an huge change. I do came up with it aswell some weeks ago but dropped it because there are some Heros who have specific attacks with lights after/while a block and it would be make it much harder in 4v4.

Thats the problem with For Honor and you suggestion, it's not a 1v1 or 2v2 in 2D/3D like streetfighter, tekken, Soulcalibur.

Nothing about the suggestion will make it a hack&slash.

You're simply assuming by reducing penalties people will mash and attack like as if it were, "standard 'beat em up'", as you say -- but look back at when we were all beginners in FH, and when we first thought we could attack and chain combos like we used to in more high-paced fighting games. It didn't work that way. The attacks are much slower and 'heavier', not to mention stamina usage is quite huge even with high stamina reduction geared and even additional stam reduction feats used. A barrage of attacks that go more than 4~5 times would drain your stamina really bad.

The inherent combat system of FH is IMO intricate enough to support a much more offensive and aggressive gameplay.

nyrue
04-24-2017, 12:40 PM
I don't believe stamina is the key to correcting the defensive meta unless they make a serious change like no blocking while out of stamin, but I don't see that happening anytime soon,

kweassa1917
04-24-2017, 12:45 PM
I don't believe stamina is the key to correcting the defensive meta unless they make a serious change like no blocking while out of stamin, but I don't see that happening anytime soon,

Oh, my suggestions are in page 1. It's not about stamina :p

S0Mi_xD
04-24-2017, 01:24 PM
Oh, my suggestions are in page 1. It's not about stamina :p

I think he meant me, because i said the key for balance lies in stamina management. ;)

kweassa1917
04-24-2017, 03:46 PM
I think he meant me, because i said the key for balance lies in stamina management. ;)

Ah, apologies. I was confused.

nyrue
04-24-2017, 10:01 PM
maybe they could shorten the time on the attack indicator for heavy attacks making them harder to parry

S0Mi_xD
04-24-2017, 10:53 PM
maybe they could shorten the time on the attack indicator for heavy attacks making them harder to parry

Making parries harder could be a way, but do not forget about deflect.
It would be still overshadowed by the parry mechanic

D4rkgrizzly
04-25-2017, 12:53 AM
I think the defensive meta issue stems from the parry and guard break(GB) mechanic. So my suggestions would as followed:

1. Turn parry into just stamina damage(dmg)
- All GB can be counterable after a parry
- All light and heavy attacks are block-able after a parry
- Forces the player to attack to deal any dmg
- Incentivizes the use of deflect and makes it special

2. GB only guarantees a light hit
-Forces the use of combos and kit while being less reliant on just GB -> heavy for dmg
-Would also show flaws in current kit designs easier
-Keep throw into wall stun of heavy attack, think Raider (rewards situation awareness)

Bonus 3. Chip Dmg
-Make Chip 20% of attack dmg, will increase with armor stat
-So if i attack you with an attack that deals 35 dmg that attack will do 7 chip dmg through your block and will take a total of 19 attacks to kill you if you just block(if you have 120 Hit points).
-promotes aggression

Bonus 4. Friendly Fire (FF)
-Increase FF dmg and make it reflect back onto you (If you throw a grenade into a bunch of friendly you deserve to feel the pain)
-Keep the FF interrupt on allies
-Lessens the GANK and spam
-Makes FF less abusive

nyrue
04-25-2017, 02:19 AM
friendly fire should do 100% and not reflect back at you, and chip damage does need an increase

UbiJurassic
04-25-2017, 02:52 AM
This is great feedback regarding the defense meta! We are looking into ways to combat how strong defense is and also looking to give offensive players an edge against it. We don't have any details to share just yet, but we hope to share more about our plans regarding it soon.

nyrue
04-25-2017, 03:26 AM
This is great feedback regarding the defense meta! We are looking into ways to combat how strong defense is and also looking to give offensive players an edge against it. We don't have any details to share just yet, but we hope to share more about our plans regarding it soon.

if you mess with the feint timing like I suggested in the OP, it should be noted that a delay should be left in the actual cancel, so that feints remain convincing, the button press should be as near to the start up as possible

S0Mi_xD
04-25-2017, 09:48 AM
friendly fire should do 100% and not reflect back at you, and chip damage does need an increase

Not 100% but it should be doing a good amount 50% +

kweassa1917
04-26-2017, 09:32 AM
Just remember, the stronger the FF gets, the stronger the trolls become.

Even with 50% you'd basically have to watch your back -- a lot.

nyrue
04-26-2017, 11:31 AM
you just have to ask yourself one question, who do you hate more, gankers or trolls

CaynAldan
04-26-2017, 08:16 PM
I think the defensive meta issue stems from the parry and guard break(GB) mechanic. So my suggestions would as followed:

1. Turn parry into just stamina damage(dmg)
- All GB can be counterable after a parry
- All light and heavy attacks are block-able after a parry
- Forces the player to attack to deal any dmg
- Incentivizes the use of deflect and makes it special

2. GB only guarantees a light hit
-Forces the use of combos and kit while being less reliant on just GB -> heavy for dmg
-Would also show flaws in current kit designs easier
-Keep throw into wall stun of heavy attack, think Raider (rewards situation awareness)

Bonus 3. Chip Dmg
-Make Chip 20% of attack dmg, will increase with armor stat
-So if i attack you with an attack that deals 35 dmg that attack will do 7 chip dmg through your block and will take a total of 19 attacks to kill you if you just block(if you have 120 Hit points).
-promotes aggression

Bonus 4. Friendly Fire (FF)
-Increase FF dmg and make it reflect back onto you (If you throw a grenade into a bunch of friendly you deserve to feel the pain)
-Keep the FF interrupt on allies
-Lessens the GANK and spam
-Makes FF less abusive

You should get a heavy attack on parry only when enemy is out of stamina