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View Full Version : For Honor - Scary to new players and returners? "Anti-Casual"?



Herbstlicht
04-23-2017, 10:44 AM
Well, I sadly have to admit that quiet a lot of people I used to play this game with have quit by now. The reasons vary, they are a mix about balancing, time and tech issues (we all play on PS4 btw.).

Before starting with some "real" reasons, here is one that actually is kinda weird. The press. I dunno how many bad articles there might be. But it is a lot. Not only players do cry the game is dying, a lot of game journalists do so too. And their only reference is the PC platform. I mean, Ubi, you fixed a lot of stuff already. Just tell the people the game is alive and healthy (guess it really is on consoles) and shut those people up. So, to start with more serious issues ...

One thing is: if you do have a rather casual schedule, this game seems not meant for you - it kinda seems "anti-casual". What I mean with this is the following: imagine you play a game, you enjoy it, but you don't have the time to play regularly. Now you took a break, come back, and get your *** handed in every match because there are like no worse players then you. Well, you may load the practice mode, put the game off after some time, try again - and when you experience the same, it kinda hurts i guess.

So one significant problem here: possibly too less casuals overall combined with a high skill gap and no real tools to play "catching up" to reach the others.

That means, even if you are motivated and have some free time due to holidays whatever ahead of you, catching up might be a very hard thing to do. Of course, we have bots, we have gameplay videos. But to counter the good players, you will need to learn some strong timings for parry, dodging etc. while learning the assets of your class that help the most.
Though the training mode does well with the basics, it really sucks when it comes to the advanced aspects. People should have the possibility to adjust bot behaviour in detail, and i mean in tiny detail. Like: spam vortex over and over, but please do a break of 3 seconds after you spam each vortex period. I for example learned the hard way to dodge those Valk Vortex (by dueling hours against the bot and players), but not everyone is up to such a waste of time ^^ So efficiency matters, everywhere. So does the "feeling" while playing catching up. I mean: when you fight 5 fights, one against a valk, you lost all and feel like no step closer - obviously this is a bad experience. If it repeats the next session .. 'nuff said?


So, now it comes to another matter: content, game modes & "newbie or returning status detection".
If you like to be carried by a strong player base, you have to offer. You have to offer a lot. And this lot should best feel fun. Like a domination match that puts you in a real strong team that gives you some nice chances to win. Like a duel mode that tells you it is currently "hard" (maybe because all playing it are waay stronger rated then you?) to tell you honestly: you can go hear, but don't cry if you get your *** handed.
And last: more coop stuff. I mean you did a coop campaign (that in the end kinda sucked .. ) - you could have done so much more. I mean: you should be able to stick with your friend till the end, shouldn't you? Why can't people in coop pick other heros after having finished the story? Just auto-skip cutscenes for example. Some invasion game mode? Oh, i dunno, but i guess there is much that is possibly, much that would appeal to a wider audience. And people that enjoy the game, learned the core mechanics and how amazing they play, are likely to enjoy all modes even long-term.


In the end, I have no idea what road this game will follow. I personally really like it still. Don't think any game will beat this melee-fighting gameplay anytime soon. But I am sad that it seems tailored to a niche group in the end that needs to invest a lot of time to really enjoy it. So, dear Ubi Reps, if you read these thoughts, you might possibly recall some discussions. I can't think reaching a broad playerbase has never been discussed. You guys are the highly payed experts here and possibly went through a lot of scenarios. But In my case, for a lot of my friends, it did not work out. So if you got something in your pipeline that might bring us some player back - would be nice. Not only for us, the players, but for you too.

I mean: with the new season, new content and positive press along with a possible sale, you could reach a lot of new players that bring some freshness and help to populate the "casual vs casual" part.



Hum, guess that's some bigger write-up then I might be used to do. Ah, anyway, i do care about the game and the community, I am sad about a lot of friends leaving, so i tried some constructive discussion to maybe solve some of the problems? Heh, dreamy me ^^
Anyway, sorry for my bad English and I would be happy if you could carry this discussion on.

DrExtrem
04-23-2017, 12:40 PM
There is a lot of truth in your post.

A good general assessment of the state of the game and community.

I want to add some of my experiences vs. bots and training vs. real players.

The last buff to the bots put the last nail to the coffin for casual and average players, who don't have the time or physical abilities to play good or really good. Especially on console, with all the other problems. I am facing extremely aggressive and light spam heavy bots in my game modes since the last update. The game seems to think I am good, because I got creamed by top players in my last pvp matches. Problem is, the matchmaker only found good players to make me play with and the bots seem to get their adjustments based on pvp performance.

If I uninstall the game and take a break, I will never be able to play it again. I am already overchallenged by the aggressive light spam and I am playing about two hours a day. A longer break or mixed performance against the bots don't make them scale back - they only know one direction and that is higher difficulty. When I reach my biological limit, the bots will try to push me further and further, until the experience breaks. Mine broke a few days ago, because I simply can not get better anymore. After over 340 hours, my limits are reached but the game does not care.

This game is basically too hardcore and it will choke (to death) on it, because returning players will get slaughtered relentlessly by players and bots alike.

It was a nice ride but playing this game outside of multiplayer is meaningless, because it offers no hero progression (not even optical one) and propper difficulty scaling. Custom games are a nuce idea but useless outside of tournaments and "advanced" training.

One word on training - nobody who is a casual player has time to train hours vs. bots

Herbstlicht
04-23-2017, 01:36 PM
Thanks for the constructive feedback. Hm, when it comes to bots, overall, i enjoy a greater challenge. However, in online-matches, the strength of the bot should be appropriate (or slightly superior) then the strength of the player. I do enjoy games vs bots as a "warm up", together with some nice upbeat music, that's something i got really used to come to enjoy. Bots on lvl 2 pose almost no threat by now, with the exception of the occasional Peacekeeper, Berserker or Shugoki (i still kinda to play against this guy, super armor sucks, he is such an unfair traider). On lvl 3 .. well, warmed up, i feel i can beat them all as well, it is just way harder. But not undoable, even on console (though the new TV really helped when it comes to display lag i guess!).

Anyway, being able to adjust bot settings for your games, even if it comes with a possible penalty, would be preferable. Like: The games thinks you are god. Well, all right. Let me still be able to scale my bots back to lvl 2 and give me like 50% exp penalty for doing so - because of course, i can farm EP potentially faster. The other way around: i would LOVE to play vs lvl 3 bots in duel mode (normal online duel mode), but i can't and don't know how much cheese i needa endure vs other players before bots to get lvl 3 for me. So why not give us players these options, would even enhance the training effect a little.

And when it comes to time and training: i honestly think that even a casual might jump into a very well done training mode if he has figured out he has a problem against a specific move. When you can practice against something in particular, you are very likely to succeed swiftly. It is like with learning vocab. You won't memorize 500 kanji in 10 days. But you might memorize 5 in 10 minutes. As translated in: it is easy to learn bit by bit. It is almost impossible to learn everything at once without maybe even being able to focus on one thing.

Anyway, i guess i would miss you if you quit the game, but i honestly believe you will stay with us into season two at least. Guess with those hours spend, you are way too curious about the future Development and - like i do - still hope for the best :)

DrExtrem
04-23-2017, 02:24 PM
I don't know what to think anymore.

I faced level three bots and the only difference is, that they parry my light attacks, if they want to f**k me up. Other than that, the are not very different from their level two counterparts.

My bots use light attack chains almost exclusively right now and it does not matter what level they are, because they are not really that easy to block on Xbox. Both the level two and three bots are a pain in the arse since the patch.

My 300+ hours (mostly played vs. bots) give me a good idea of the direction of the game - and right now, they want to please pc players only, by adjusting the game to their needs and situation only. Their development is going against console players and they are not even realizing, that the console versions are vastly different and need their own balancing.

The bots were doable for me, if they would adjust the balancing to consoles and the home entertainment setups, they are connected to. At the moment, that are tailoring the game to hard core gamers and no-lifers. This leaves almost no room for mediocre and casual players like me. Ubisoft has often shown, that the console versions are not their focus, despite having the largest player base. The fact that they killed the tournaments on consoles for rainbow 6 made it clear, that they like out money but don't care for us.

Jarl.Felix
04-23-2017, 02:30 PM
This game will never be A THING, just deal with this :)

It doesnt have the background from the company to be a thing, just a "milk players money game", if you even encountered that type of games you will understand.

Besides they can't comprehend how to balance the game fights and thus this will never be as they dreamed : "eSport gaming".

Hillbill79
04-23-2017, 02:31 PM
My 300+ hours (mostly played vs. bots) give me a good idea of the direction of the game - and right now, they want to please pc players only, by adjusting the game to their needs and situation only. Their development is going against console players and they are not even realizing, that the console versions are vastly different and need their own balancing.
.

In a game aimed at console players... why would they be trying to please the lowest player base (PC) only?

Hillbill79
04-23-2017, 02:37 PM
This game will never be A THING, just deal with this :)

It doesnt have the background from the company to be a thing, just a "milk players money game", if you even encountered that type of games you will understand.

Besides they can't comprehend how to balance the game fights and thus this will never be as they dreamed : "eSport gaming".

Balancing takes data, data collection takes time..... thus, accurate balancing, by that very definition.... takes time.

Look at World of Tanks as an example... that game has been going for 6 years.... it is a VERY different game now than it was when I started playing it 3 years ago, and they are still rebalancing. Yet, it is a very popular game, has a lot of tournies with good money on offer to winners..... that game was not built in a day... nor will this.

WOT has no warriors den type streams, the company do not listen to people whining about this is Op, that is OP.... NERF NERF NERF. They use data to balance the game... data gathered over time. For Honor is young... it will grow and change over time.... Balance can not be done based on the opinions of players overnight.,

Jarl.Felix
04-23-2017, 02:50 PM
Be as you said.

Now, name me one Ubisoft game who reached even 8/10 ratings :))

kweassa1917
04-23-2017, 02:58 PM
In a way, it's to be expected with all fighting games -- the genre has very loyal and devoted fans as with any niche group, but the downside being particularly small and very difficult for beginners and casual players to adapt to.

Any PvP game can only be described as "hectic", and the skill range of people vary between the absolutely cluess to "holy shi* that guy's just inhuman" levels, and while most people are around average or under, these people DO get matched with the best players sometimes and the experience can often be described as nothing but humiliation.

A better matchmaking would largely solve these problems, but this also comes at a cost. Having more precise, defined matchmaking systems means the range of players you can be matched with becomes narrower... and while the majority of average people won't feel the difference, as you get better and more skilled you'll begin to feel that the matchmaking is taking longer and longer, because the number of players grow exponentially smaller the higher the skill level goes.

If you are within the top 5% of players, for example, if there are 100 people playing the game that means with a more strict matchmaking system only 4 other people will be eligible to play with you -- you can't even start a match. So the dilemma of matchmaking is that you have to sacrifice one for the other. It's either "have games fire up more often with minimal waiting time -- but with considerable risk of being totally outmatched", or, "have a very well-matched game, but wait forever to get one started".

To an extent, this is inherently what fighting games are, and cannot be avoided.


Me, I'm just glad I lived long enough to see the age of PC gaming on network connection.

Imagine what it was like 20 years ago. :o

All the same problems and drawbacks were there in the days of old -- except you had to go pay a quarter at the local arcade to play your favorite game. Think about how many games you've played so far in FH and all the times you lost, and then jumped right back in to learn more.... 20 years ago, everytime we did that we paid money...

Man... if I actually do a count on how much money I spent in the arcade... to master fighting games.... I think I could have bought a new car....! :D

kweassa1917
04-23-2017, 03:06 PM
That being said... there could be some remedies UbiMont can do...

-- Develop a more keenly developed, really good single-player mode that takes around 10~20 hours.
-- Develop a larger scale, better thought-out faction war mode with both multiplayer and singleplayer contributions
-- Develop a more detailed and interesting co-op mode (with 'relaxed realism' option to make it more hack&slash than a real fighting game) a narrative... sieges, raids (*gasp) "boss fights"

...to name of few.

All of these would be considerable time and effort so I don't think its likely, to tell the truth, but theoretically, having a good singleplayer mode and an interesting/challenging co-op mode helps a lot in keeping casual players interested enough to play the game more, Imagine a very-large scale co-op battlefield with all sorts of eyecandy like knight charges and viking longships and samurai muskets and stuff... that makes you feel like leading a real group of soldiers to battle. I'd play it.

DrExtrem
04-23-2017, 03:45 PM
In a game aimed at console players... why would they be trying to please the lowest player base (PC) only?

Because they were literally using PC data to adjust the peacekeeper, ignoring the problem of light spam on consoles entirely.

cragar212
04-23-2017, 03:53 PM
They won't even acknowledge Pc and console are 2 different games.

Again last night I watched the #2 PC tournament player in the world Sypherpk compete in a console tournament. Again he was beaten. Was he outplayed? No a Valk light spammed him to death.

It seems Ubi thinks PC is where the prestige is so is only focused on PC. Sad.

Lumina-US
04-23-2017, 04:02 PM
Be as you said.

Now, name me one Ubisoft game who reached even 8/10 ratings :))Far Cry: Primal

And what did "Average Joe" learn from this today?

No Multiplayer-Mode = No problems.

The_B0G_
04-23-2017, 06:01 PM
Really like the idea of an invasion AI mode, a 4 player co op mode would be great (besides the multiplayer bot modes). I might think more on that and write a post with suggestions for a Horde/Survival mode.

AKDagriZ
04-23-2017, 06:10 PM
this is so true it is a non casual gamer title . And with more buff to come it gonna be much more non casual game.

DrExtrem
04-23-2017, 06:41 PM
this is so true it is a non casual gamer title . And with more buff to come it gonna be much more non casual game.

And it would be totally ok, if they would have aimed for a non-casual approach.

But they did not. The largest moveset is the same be of the lawbringer with 14 moves. While that light sounds like a big moveset, it is actually full of variations or the same move. Three different shove variations. For different ripostes, that all trigger after a parry. Swift justice and swift justice finisher are basically the same.

Nobushi - 12 moves - mixups and one of the "moves" is hidden stance.
Conqueror - 9 moves. One of it is a light infinite chain (actually the most difficult one) and three (one third of all moves!!!) shield bash variations.

Compared to Johnny cage with all his moves and variations of the same move not counting, this game is actually quite casual and simple. Some of the moves i found, gave several variations, directions and were more than three moves long - the most "sophisticated move" in fh is four attacks long and a lot of the moves are one buttons you need to press, if a certain action happened.

This game pretends to be complicated and sophisticated but is simply not thought out and (badly done) casual.

Herbstlicht
04-24-2017, 09:34 AM
Hm, if it really is casual or not, that seems hard to say honestly. So the movesets are limited, the ways in utilizising are not. Like waiting for the latest possible frame to connect an attack to a dodge, cancel an attack into a hidden stance with some follow up, vary your dash moves (heavy or light) when wavedashing .. and that's only a few tricks for Nobushi. So not only do you learn your own moves, need to optimize your range and usage of everything, but it is important to read your opponents as well. So of course, more moves? That would get my love. But still, it is not a simply game by any means. And that is a part that I do like and that possibly doesn't even scare new players. Depth itsself rarely does.

Ah well, i got another idea btw. Some kinda mentoring system. Like: you are experienced. Want to join the mentors ranks? Be nice to new ones, do some training matches with them, and .. oh dunno. Do reward the guys on the rating they recieve by their trainees. Might even make the community a little friendlier, dunno.

Iskaroth
04-24-2017, 06:16 PM
And it would be totally ok, if they would have aimed for a non-casual approach.

But they did not. The largest moveset is the same be of the lawbringer with 14 moves. While that light sounds like a big moveset, it is actually full of variations or the same move. Three different shove variations. For different ripostes, that all trigger after a parry. Swift justice and swift justice finisher are basically the same.

Nobushi - 12 moves - mixups and one of the "moves" is hidden stance.
Conqueror - 9 moves. One of it is a light infinite chain (actually the most difficult one) and three (one third of all moves!!!) shield bash variations.

Compared to Johnny cage with all his moves and variations of the same move not counting, this game is actually quite casual and simple. Some of the moves i found, gave several variations, directions and were more than three moves long - the most "sophisticated move" in fh is four attacks long and a lot of the moves are one buttons you need to press, if a certain action happened.

This game pretends to be complicated and sophisticated but is simply not thought out and (badly done) casual.
Mortal Kombat? What about Tekken where characters like Lei or Hworang have literally hundreds of moves and variations, several stances with various properties, not to mention core gameplay mechanics have a lot more depth than For Honor. I was very disapointed when i bought the game and saw how limited the movesets are - i realized its not a fighting game and it never will be. Game has low skill ceiling and Duels are pretty much long QTEs + exploiting whatever is currently OP like Warden's Shoulder Bash or ZA indicator bug.

Sanjuro28
06-30-2018, 01:45 PM
I bought the game on pc, and as casual I suck most of my time, even bots humiliate me in ways that just make me want to break things, so yea, game not casualfriendly, and on pc it not easier.

ArmoredChocobo
07-01-2018, 12:32 AM
Iíd say itís pretty anti-casual, especially on PvP dominion.

Sadly PvP is also the default setting for every mode.

If we have a newbie on the team, I know weíre gonna have a bad time. If Iím fighting one, both of us are gonna have a bad time.

I hate stomping on someone that can hardly fight back, but I canít be faffing about with him to try and teach him parries, and I canít let him live and get a lucky shot.

The_B0G_
07-01-2018, 01:07 AM
Iíd say itís pretty anti-casual, especially on PvP dominion.

Sadly PvP is also the default setting for every mode.

If we have a newbie on the team, I know weíre gonna have a bad time. If Iím fighting one, both of us are gonna have a bad time.

I hate stomping on someone that can hardly fight back, but I canít be faffing about with him to try and teach him parries, and I canít let him live and get a lucky shot.

Literally no PvP game is easy to step into a year after release. You have a high percentage of veterans, most people are geared up with optimized builds and lots of experience with multiple characters/loadouts.

This is not something exclusive to For Honor.