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View Full Version : Omg, unskillful gank squad everywhere in 4v4s now



iiRAINBOW_DASH
04-23-2017, 04:07 AM
Since the revenge nerf, ppl are playing so scummy in 4v4s. Shugoki and Lawbringer gank squad that travels in 3 or 4 players are steamed rolling through everything to the point where the game is less appealing to me.

I've always qued solo because that's my style and my teammates are low gear scor randoms don't stand a chance against these teams. Thus, it's forcing me to get a pre made 4s squad myself which I do not want to do. Before patch, I was able stand a chance with these scummy and unskillful tactics teams. Now it's almost impossible to win 1 verses 2 or 3 against these teams let alone good players.

Ultimately, I rather have revenge the way it was. Ppl have to take calculated risk before jumping on opponents. Now, it's just why not double or triple team that player because there are no more risk of fighting in advantages. For Honor is no longer fun :/

kweassa1917
04-23-2017, 04:25 AM
:rolleyes:

Flello
04-23-2017, 04:59 AM
I never relied upon revenge before, neither did I go round in a 'gank squad'. But I never double think on attacking a revenged player now. They just don't give that element of fear anymore, just glow a little brighter.

Before you'd think twice before jumping in on a teammates fight, evaluate if you could get the kill before revenge kicked in. Now it doesn't matter, there's no fear anymore, they don't dish out enough damage and die just as fast as if they didn't have revenge.

I'd agree maybe it needed a slight nerf. Only trouble I had before was people kicking it off every 10 seconds if they're being ganked. Give it some kind of internal cooldown and it would've been fine in my opinion. Now it's just a pointless mechanic that prolongs your death by about 5-10 seconds.

CitizenPuddi
04-23-2017, 05:00 AM
stick with your team

iiRAINBOW_DASH
04-23-2017, 05:24 AM
I never relied upon revenge before, neither did I go round in a 'gank squad'. But I never double think on attacking a revenged player now. They just don't give that element of fear anymore, just glow a little brighter.

Before you'd think twice before jumping in on a teammates fight, evaluate if you could get the kill before revenge kicked in. Now it doesn't matter, there's no fear anymore, they don't dish out enough damage and die just as fast as if they didn't have revenge.

I'd agree maybe it needed a slight nerf. Only trouble I had before was people kicking it off every 10 seconds if they're being ganked. Give it some kind of internal cooldown and it would've been fine in my opinion. Now it's just a pointless mechanic that prolongs your death by about 5-10 seconds.
I agreed. Santa on a reindeer sleigh is more scarier than revenge mode right now.

Antonioj26
04-23-2017, 05:40 AM
I really don't get this mentality of expecting to win ganks. In most other multiplayer games if you are being ganged up on you will lose! If the revenge mechanic never existed you wouldn't be crying about this because it would be just like every other game.

I still win 2v1 encounters on occasion and it's rare I win a 3v1 but why the hell should i be able to win 3v1 consistently? It doesn't make any sense to punish the players who know to travel in groups and play the game the most effectively. It's not their fault you strayed from your team or your team couldn't beat their guy in elimination. I don't get how anyone can look at the prenerf revenge and say "yeah I just knocked down 3 dudes at once, spammed zone for 30 seconds until they are dead, and got revenge a second time to finish off the final guy. Balance! Skill!"

iiRAINBOW_DASH
04-23-2017, 06:00 AM
I really don't get this mentality of expecting to win ganks. In most other multiplayer games if you are being ganged up on you will lose! If the revenge mechanic never existed you wouldn't be crying about this because it would be just like every other game.

I still win 2v1 encounters on occasion and it's rare I win a 3v1 but why the hell should i be able to win 3v1 consistently? It doesn't make any sense to punish the players who know to travel in groups and play the game the most effectively. It's not their fault you strayed from your team or your team couldn't beat their guy in elimination. I don't get how anyone can look at the prenerf revenge and say "yeah I just knocked down 3 dudes at once, spammed zone for 30 seconds until they are dead, and got revenge a second time to finish off the final guy. Balance! Skill!" I see you are with anti revenge party. Team work will always win whether if it was last patch or now. I'm saying one lone guy against 2 or 3 stood 30% chance to make it alive. Now it turned into a ganking meta. Solo player like myself stands no chance. I don't wanna play with pre made 108's.

Antonioj26
04-23-2017, 06:06 AM
I see you are with anti revenge party. Team work will always win whether if it was last patch or now. I'm saying one lone guy against 2 or 3 stood 30% chance to make it alive. Now it turned into a ganking meta. Solo player like myself stands no chance. I don't wanna play with pre made 108's.
Wrong. Prenerf I could run into doubles or triples build revenge and use and unblockable to knock someone down and 1-2 shot them. It became easier to fight groups than to solo fight. Only time it ever became a problem is if a valk, shugo, or lb used their disabling moves but even then you just go for them first and you just killed 3 guys by yourself. Nothing justifies this, nothing.

CoyoteXStarrk
04-23-2017, 06:09 AM
I find it funny so many people are mad that they actually have to learn how to play now lol

Bob__Gnarly
04-23-2017, 06:20 AM
As someone that solo queues as well, i can feel your pain when you get matched against a premade group working together while you're stuck with low level inexperienced or plain bad players.

It didn't used to be a problem when revenge builds were OP, but now that its been nerfed into the ground you can't rely on it to balance the odds anymore.

Don't get me wrong, revenge builds were in serious need of attention, but Ubi over did it in my opinion. All they needed to do was tweak gear stats, so it didn't pop so often and maybe not hit as hard, but they nerfed every aspect. Now ganking is back in fashion and while a legit tactic, it's not my idea of fun.

I won't stamp my feet about it though, I've already adapted. Just my 2 cents.

iiRAINBOW_DASH
04-23-2017, 06:26 AM
I find it funny so many people are mad that they actually have to learn how to play now lol people that didn't know how to handle revenge complained and whine so they can run gank squad group. They try to avoid 1v1 at all cost? Yeah they are bad.

Antonioj26
04-23-2017, 06:29 AM
people that didn't know how to handle revenge complained and whine so they can run gank squad group. They try to avoid 1v1 at all cost? Yeah they are bad.

They are wanting to play a team based mode as a team? Weird.....

iiRAINBOW_DASH
04-23-2017, 06:30 AM
Wrong. Prenerf I could run into doubles or triples build revenge and use and unblockable to knock someone down and 1-2 shot them. It became easier to fight groups than to solo fight. Only time it ever became a problem is if a valk, shugo, or lb used their disabling moves but even then you just go for them first and you just killed 3 guys by yourself. Nothing justifies this, nothing.
Good players knows how to handle revenge. You must be facing pugs with no gear score. They need to L2P and git gud.

Antonioj26
04-23-2017, 06:33 AM
Good players knows how to handle revenge. You must be facing pugs with no gear score. They need to L2P and git gud.

The absolute irony of you saying L2P while crying about the revenge nerd is delicious.

RatedChaotic
04-23-2017, 06:34 AM
Lemme guess you pugged a 4v4 and got your a$$ handed to ya and complained. Get gud. Find a team and wreck pugs.

iiRAINBOW_DASH
04-23-2017, 06:46 AM
The absolute irony of you saying L2P while crying about the revenge nerd is delicious.
Irony is gank squad are the ppl with no skills and slow reaction time.

I don't need to rely or crutch my teammates to do well.

iiRAINBOW_DASH
04-23-2017, 06:47 AM
Lemme guess you pugged a 4v4 and got your a$$ handed to ya and complained. Get gud. Find a team and wreck pugs.
That's boring I like a challenge where I wreck pre made with pugs or bots.

RatedChaotic
04-23-2017, 06:58 AM
That's boring I like a challenge where I wreck pre made with pugs or bots.

Ya sure you do.❤ I love these people that use other names on the forums than their GT. So we cant see their stats. And your complaining about gank squads and premades and then say you own them? Are you serious man? You expect a pug to be better than a premade team?

I'm sorry bro you dont know squat about competitive pvp.

iiRAINBOW_DASH
04-23-2017, 07:10 AM
Ya sure you do.❤ I love these people that use other names on the forums than their GT. So we cant see their stats. And your complaining about gank squads and premades and then say you own them? Are you serious man?
LOL wUT? Check my stats same name ps4. 21 Kensei and 12 valk.

RatedChaotic
04-23-2017, 07:16 AM
LOL wUT? Check my stats same name ps4. 21 Kensei and 12 valk.

Stats like that and your complaining lmao.....Some people amaze me. You know squat about pvp. Your thread is proof.

iiRAINBOW_DASH
04-23-2017, 07:29 AM
Stats like that and your complaining lmao.....Some people amaze me. You know squat about pvp. Your thread is proof.
My replied was deleted but i said go check my stats 5 kd and 80% win overall with no pre made. Your response made no sense.

CoyoteXStarrk
04-23-2017, 07:36 AM
My replied was deleted but i said go check my stats 5 kd and 80% win overall with no pre made. Your response made no sense.

Okay if your stats are so amazing and you are so good at the game you don't need to be complaining right?


Right.


Lets also completely ignore you got those stats while Revenge was still utterly broken. lol

XImohtephXX
04-23-2017, 10:09 AM
Another one of these????..........Ok it is fairly simple. DO NOT GET TUNNEL VISION!!! This is about the third or fourth post Ive seen where people act like Revenge has been taken away completely. Practice tracking multiple targets and briefly taking note of what they are doing. If it seems like they may be setting something up to open you up then chances are that is what they are doing. Figure out what is favorable ground to engage multiple people and learn to recognize what and opening looks like either to run away or to get a hit in. You need to actually use your head now.

kweassa1917
04-23-2017, 10:28 AM
Under this line of logic, people who have good team play are supposed to be skill-less, therefore you, the self-proclaimed "superior" player would probably would have beaten them if they came one by one.


So, even if we give the benefit of doubt and assume that is true, then ganging up on you would be actually the SMARTEST MOVE they can do, wouldn't it.

The people on the other side of the screen are all players, all human, smart, learning. So if you're really that better than them, WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD THEY EVER COME AT YOU ONE BY ONE SO YOU CAN JUST KILL THEM ONE BY ONE -- LIKE SOME MOVIE VILLAINS? Weaker players have a right to play and enjoy the game as they can, don't they? So for weaker players, the smartest move to be cover each other's backs.


So.. just what exactly is the complaint here?

JohnWick87
04-23-2017, 10:39 AM
I find it funny so many people are mad that they actually have to learn how to play now lol

Absolutely. On the other hand, i dont know, what they want !? Revenge is still a very powerfull thing in the game. But still you can ( like you could befor the nerf 2) counter it ! Its ok as it is right now !

Herbstlicht
04-23-2017, 10:48 AM
Oh, i still do like this change very much. Revenge stayed strong, as stayed a lot of counter measures. I mean: if you get carried through the map while raging in your revenge state, you ain't gonna hurt anyone ^^ It's just no more I-win-button vs many. If your team fights somewhat coordinated and you get your revenge, the other team - if it fights coordinated - will surely be less likely to touch you right now, thanks to the: "i knock you down and punish you real hard!"- scenario that still is very possible. So enjoy it for what it is. An Ace up your sleeve that can change the tide of battle - but isn't sure to do so.

Robsket
04-23-2017, 10:49 AM
Under this line of logic, people who have good team play are supposed to be skill-less, therefore you, the self-proclaimed "superior" player would probably would have beaten them if they came one by one.


So, even if we give the benefit of doubt and assume that is true, then ganging up on you would be actually the SMARTEST MOVE they can do, wouldn't it.

The people on the other side of the screen are all players, all human, smart, learning. So if you're really that better than them, WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD THEY EVER COME AT YOU ONE BY ONE SO YOU CAN JUST KILL THEM ONE BY ONE -- LIKE SOME MOVIE VILLAINS? Weaker players have a right to play and enjoy the game as they can, don't they? So for weaker players, the smartest move to be cover each other's backs.


So.. just what exactly is the complaint here?

Kweassa I quote in toto. Note also that the revenge nerf putted high gear and low gear players on the same level.

CitizenPuddi
04-23-2017, 11:41 AM
WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD THEY EVER COME AT YOU ONE BY ONE SO YOU CAN JUST KILL THEM ONE BY ONE -- LIKE SOME MOVIE VILLAINS?

b-but muh honor

:c

CandleInTheDark
04-23-2017, 12:00 PM
If revenge is so weak, explain how I killed two people in one pop with it with a minimum build up and minimum duration build. Got cornered, my own screwup since I was staying with my team most the time and tunnel visioned into a mess when one of them fell, popped revenge, played well, got results. It is now no longer easier to fight three people than it is one and in a team based game it should not be, but it now takes more skill than waiting for an I win button to pop up and the game is in a much better state for it.

Gray360UK
04-23-2017, 12:05 PM
Why should you win against 3 people anyway?

Honestly. Serious question. You shouldn't have a Godmode that lets you do that.

I do wonder if Revenge was just masking a bigger problem that lays beneath, that combat is not all it should be in For Honor and ganking is too easy, but regardless, Godmode is not the answer, better ways to escape, feats, skills and additions to the moveset will always be a better solution than a Godmode which can be exploited as easily as Revenge could be.

Moondyne_MC
04-23-2017, 12:26 PM
If revenge is so weak, explain how I killed two people in one pop with it with a minimum build up and minimum duration build. Got cornered, my own screwup since I was staying with my team most the time and tunnel visioned into a mess when one of them fell, popped revenge, played well, got results. It is now no longer easier to fight three people than it is one and in a team based game it should not be, but it now takes more skill than waiting for an I win button to pop up and the game is in a much better state for it.

Weeeeell, you are a PK main, arguably the hardest character to defend against with 100% success, which means you gain the greatest offensive boost from revenge, as it only takes a few sly lights to destroy someone when you have max revenge attack.

That said, I completely agree with your post. :P just teasing.

ImTiredOfU
04-23-2017, 12:40 PM
Oh I see we got the same 6 anti revenge people in this thread too. Imagine that. News flash morons that support the nerf, it is ****ing boring now. You act like eveyone that like revenge was using it. Some of us actually liked the challenge of actually fighting instead of mashing r2 in a group. Stop with the ******** of every other game you lose in 1v4. Why the **** ddoes this have to be like every other game. Why not just go play those games if you sucked so bad at revenge. Why? This game was different now than any hack n slash. And it's these few vocal anti revenge baddies in this forum I here *****ing the most. Here is an idea to you stfu and play something else and leave this game alone or as you say all the time get gud

CitizenPuddi
04-23-2017, 12:45 PM
Oh I see we got the same 6 anti revenge people in this thread too. Imagine that. News flash morons that support the nerf, it is ****ing boring now. You act like eveyone that like revenge was using it. Some of us actually liked the challenge of actually fighting instead of mashing r2 in a group. Stop with the ******** of every other game you lose in 1v4. Why the **** ddoes this have to be like every other game. Why not just go play those games if you sucked so bad at revenge. Why? This game was different now than any hack n slash. And it's these few vocal anti revenge baddies in this forum I here *****ing the most. Here is an idea to you stfu and play something else and leave this game alone or as you say all the time get gud

"i cant use easy mode wipe the floor with the enemy team anymore this game is boring now get gud"
-people that want old OP revenge back, probably

Like... Are you aware that you're telling people that support a change that made the game more challenging to git gud?

Think about that for a moment.

ImTiredOfU
04-23-2017, 12:53 PM
See again the same 6 that ***** won't read and don't get some of us liked the challenge of revenge cause we knew how to deal with it. Period. I'm sorry you are too dumb to understand this but not all of us had trouble with revenge like you obviosly did. I don't have trouble killing in fact its stupid easy now. And boring because they dumbed it down for you baddies so yeah get gud and stfu for once the community is tired of listening to you 6 ***** and you know who you are in this thread.

CitizenPuddi
04-23-2017, 12:59 PM
See again the same 6 that ***** won't read and don't get some of us liked the challenge of revenge cause we knew how to deal with it. Period. I'm sorry you are too dumb to understand this but not all of us had trouble with revenge like you obviosly did. I don't have trouble killing in fact its stupid easy now. And boring because they dumbed it down for you baddies so yeah get gud and stfu for once the community is tired of listening to you 6 ***** and you know who you are in this thread.

Ooohhhhh, yeah.

I totally misunderstood you.

My apologies.

I also think you're misunderstanding me.

You enjoyed playing against Godmode.

I enjoy dealing with superior numbers without Godmode.

Gray360UK
04-23-2017, 01:03 PM
Oh I see we got the same 6 anti revenge people in this thread too. Imagine that. News flash morons that support the nerf, it is ****ing boring now. You act like eveyone that like revenge was using it. Some of us actually liked the challenge of actually fighting instead of mashing r2 in a group. Stop with the ******** of every other game you lose in 1v4. Why the **** ddoes this have to be like every other game. Why not just go play those games if you sucked so bad at revenge. Why? This game was different now than any hack n slash. And it's these few vocal anti revenge baddies in this forum I here *****ing the most. Here is an idea to you stfu and play something else and leave this game alone or as you say all the time get gud

You need Godmode / Revenge to win in a fight but other people need to get gud .... :rolleyes:

Also, how does one even 'suck so bad' at Revenge? This is a new concept for me, please explain ;)

ImTiredOfU
04-23-2017, 01:08 PM
See gray you are one of the worst 1s about this **** you are in every thread *****ing. Let me say this 1 more time since I see that you really are slow. I have no problem killing like before. I actually smash even more than before cause I join in you r2 smash circle jerk of boredom. Its not more skill it's boring and no different that games like God of war now. The uniqueness is gone. 100 threads like this exist by different people but alway you and you 5 buddies that are disagreeing. All pk and warlord mains. So does the community a favor and stfu

ImTiredOfU
04-23-2017, 01:12 PM
Hey grey maybe if you didn't lvl your rooms against ai you would be better at pvp and know how to actually counter revenge

CitizenPuddi
04-23-2017, 01:16 PM
Hey grey maybe if you didn't lvl your rooms against ai you would be better at pvp and know how to actually counter revenge

If you were good enough for matchmaking to not consistently place you with scrubs that only spam-attacked with revengemode activated, you'd know how to counter supposed counters to revenge.

Gray360UK
04-23-2017, 01:20 PM
Hey grey maybe if you didn't lvl your rooms against ai you would be better at pvp and know how to actually counter revenge

Haha, I very much doubt you even come close to being as good at PvP as I am. :rolleyes:

Would you like me to upload a clip of me killing 6 people in Revenge mode and single-handedly winning an Elimination match to show how much trouble I had with Revenge? ;)

You're forgetting that if you're such an expert when it comes to countering Revenge, that you were obviously always ganking people and triggering their Revenge ... something you're now acting like you are forced to do ... old habits die hard I guess. I'm not buying it. The only possible reason for anyone to be as upset as you that Revenge is gone, is because you're dying more without it.

ImTiredOfU
04-23-2017, 01:22 PM
Ubisoft are you really listening to these morons I swear to god if you can't see their stupidity I'm done. Holy **** I didn't have issue with revenge before so all this nerf did was make it easier. I'm not having trouble toppi,t the charts by just smashing r2 in a group it's easy to do. sorry it is. If you don't think it is then it shows how bad you are. So stop acting like I'm getting wrecked and mad cause I'm gonna continue to smash people till they quit this game to prove a point. I got my 60 worth.

ImTiredOfU
04-23-2017, 01:27 PM
I have said before I thought revenge needed tweak but no this. A few character that are already op exploited revenge. Fix those issue like spamong za and knockdown not nerf it so bad zerg becomes the best option 100 percent of the time. If you support how they nerfed this you are bias as **** and probably a pk or warlord.

CitizenPuddi
04-23-2017, 01:28 PM
Ubisoft are you really listening to these morons I swear to god if you can't see their stupidity I'm done. Holy **** I didn't have issue with revenge before so all this nerf did was make it easier. I'm not having trouble toppi,t the charts by just smashing r2 in a group it's easy to do. sorry it is. If you don't think it is then it shows how bad you are. So stop acting like I'm getting wrecked and mad cause I'm gonna continue to smash people till they quit this game to prove a point. I got my 60 worth.

man, you must be so good at this game

i guess thats why you dont post under your uplay name so nobody can look up your stats on fhtracker.

Antonioj26
04-23-2017, 01:30 PM
Irony is gank squad are the ppl with no skills and slow reaction time.

I don't need to rely or crutch my teammates to do well.

Yeah a broken mechanic allowing you to one to two shot people is plenty of skill.

CitizenPuddi
04-23-2017, 01:33 PM
I have said before I thought revenge needed tweak but no this. A few character that are already op exploited revenge. Fix those issue like spamong za and knockdown not nerf it so bad zerg becomes the best option 100 percent of the time. If you support how they nerfed this you are bias as **** and probably a pk or warlord.

Berserker main. Outmaneuvering and absolutely dumpstering superior numbers that thought they could "counter' revenge mode by spamming shugoki hugs, lawbringer impalements, and valkyrie sweeps wasn't terribly uncommon.

The fact that you complain about zergs suggests that you used revenge mode to your advantage quite often, and are upset that you can't solo 3 or 4 people at a time.

If you were good enough to fight against pre-nerf revenge mode on your own, why do you feel that zergs are the best option now all of a sudden?

It should be easy for you, because you're so skilled.

ImTiredOfU
04-23-2017, 01:36 PM
You so worried about you k/d all you care about is someone not beating you. Let me guess you use unlock tech too or advance tech(exploits) again a couple op characters exploited the mechanic and instead of fixing that they nerfed revenge that makes perfect sense. I mean worked for 85 percent of our classes with a few exceptions so let's destroy it all. Those same op characters still can kill like before now they are just unstoppable if they group up. I don't have issues other than my groups getting rage quit and dc. So like I said have fun I'm done I'm going back to smashing people till the game dies.

Antonioj26
04-23-2017, 01:40 PM
I have said before I thought revenge needed tweak but no this. A few character that are already op exploited revenge. Fix those issue like spamong za and knockdown not nerf it so bad zerg becomes the best option 100 percent of the time. If you support how they nerfed this you are bias as **** and probably a pk or warlord.

I'm what other game is their a mechanic like revenge? This idea that the battlefield should be tilted to the solo guy in a gank fight doesn't exist anywhere except in this game so I legitimately don't get why people are this upset. The solo guy absolutely should not have the advantage if two guys that are equal skill or close to. They should almost never win that fight but because of revenge now you actually have a chance. Before the nerf there was no reason to go with your team because getting ganked was a sure fire way to get revenge and win. I'd like to hear reasonable arguments for this and not insults. It's not productive and proves nothing

kweassa1917
04-23-2017, 01:41 PM
Like I said, in the end, revenge whiners are all about egos. Hence, confronted with the truth, oooh boy here comes the personal attacks. :rolleyes:

The sad part of the tale is that once they swallow down that ego, and begin pondering what options one could take in trying to avoid being focused, they'd realize there's a whole lot more to the game than they've previously thought.

I wonder if any of them understand what it means when I say "read the signs". They just don't know how much they missing out on. :rolleyes:

When you play with really experienced players, most of them know by experience what to do and where to go without even exchanging a single word on chat. Lookit the signs, indicators, which place was recently captured.. all of this tells gives you an estimate of how many enemies are moving where.

There's practically a billboard of information littered out the battlefield, and these guys are illiterate. That's tragic.

CitizenPuddi
04-23-2017, 01:42 PM
You so worried about you k/d all you care about is someone not beating you. Let me guess you use unlock tech too or advance tech(exploits) again a couple op characters exploited the mechanic and instead of fixing that they nerfed revenge that makes perfect sense. I mean worked for 85 percent of our classes with a few exceptions so let's destroy it all. Those same op characters still can kill like before now they are just unstoppable if they group up. I don't have issues other than my groups getting rage quit and dc. So like I said have fun I'm done I'm going back to smashing people till the game dies.

You are making a -lot- of assumptions, lol.

I don't care about my k/d. That's why I stick with my team and encourage them to help eachother out when the 4-man gank squad comes rolling around.

Berserker did not benefit from unlock techs and as far as I know hasn't really had any exploits so far.

I'm having trouble following your point.

You claimed earlier that everyone was an idiot because they didn't realize that you were saying that you liked playing against characters made OP by using revenge mode.

Now you're complaining that you can't deal with groups of "unstoppable op characters".

Then you said you're gonna smash people until they quit.

Now you're saying that your issue is your group ragequitting.

Pick a point and stick with it pls.

Don't say "ubi you srsly listen to these people?" when you yourself can't string together a coherent argument.

ImTiredOfU
04-23-2017, 01:46 PM
You wonder why people are so hostile and think this community is toxic it's because no matter what someone tells you You just spout off the same ****. I'm not unhappy because I can't kill. I'm unhappy cause they made it easier. See big ****ing diffrence. If you don't get that then honestly you shouldn't be giving advice. 😉

ImTiredOfU
04-23-2017, 01:50 PM
If your group ran in and died to revenge you sucked let me explain if he killed 3 of you team mates and you are left. Wait till no revenge and then if he wins guess what you sucked. Revenge didn't matter at that point. So if a revenge build wiped a group then they deserved it

CitizenPuddi
04-23-2017, 01:51 PM
I'm not unhappy because I can't kill. I'm unhappy cause they made it easier.

I don't believe you.

CitizenPuddi
04-23-2017, 01:55 PM
If your group ran in and died to revenge you sucked let me explain if he killed 3 of you team mates and you are left. Wait till no revenge and then if he wins guess what you sucked. Revenge didn't matter at that point. So if a revenge build wiped a group then they deserved it

As a berserker, I was strong enough to literally 2/3-shot most classes with revenge and the t4 berserker feat activated.

With proper positioning, it was easy to proceed to 2-shot enemy groups 1 at a time.

The only skillful part of that scenario was positioning.

Those poor fools didn't deserve what I did to them.

Antonioj26
04-23-2017, 02:02 PM
If your group ran in and died to revenge you sucked let me explain if he killed 3 of you team mates and you are left. Wait till no revenge and then if he wins guess what you sucked. Revenge didn't matter at that point. So if a revenge build wiped a group then they deserved it

If you ran into a group by yourself and died you sucked. Let me explain if, if you run into a group in any other team based game wait til your team is there and if the other team wins, guess what you sucked. So If you Died trying to solo a group then you deserved it.

I apologize to anyone reading this but I figured if I matched his terrible grammar and sentence structure it would help him get it.

Gray360UK
04-23-2017, 02:02 PM
characters still can kill like before now they are just unstoppable if they group up

Yeah ... see ... team game. Valid tactic. You are supposed to be unstoppable if you group up.

Being stoppable by one guy, not because he is good, but because he activated Revenge mode, should not be a thing. I can see the bad leaking between the thin smoke screen you are trying to cover the bad with. It's obvious your issue is being ganked and not being able to go into Hulk Smash mode anymore. You are not Bruce Banner anymore, no one cares if they make you angry.

Perhaps instead of wishing for Hulk mode back, you should develop situational awareness and team skills.

kweassa1917
04-23-2017, 02:05 PM
If your group ran in and died to revenge you sucked

If you ran into a group of gankers, your team sucked.


let me explain if he killed 3 of you team mates and you are left. Wait till no revenge and then if he wins guess what you sucked. Revenge didn't matter at that point. So if a revenge build wiped a group then they deserved it

Let me explain it even simpler. Learn to count, and don't meet superior numbers of enemies alone.

If you have trouble counting, lookit your right hand. Count the fingers. How many baddies? One.. two.. three.. ooh, that's more fingers than me, I'm only one.

"1 < 3" so don't engage, avoid. Go look for your own teammates or other capture points to separate them and draw them out.

CandleInTheDark
04-23-2017, 02:07 PM
Perhaps instead of wishing for Hulk mode back, you should develop situational awareness and team skills.

But Gray that takes a lot more work than being able to Hulk Smash :rolleyes:

kweassa1917
04-23-2017, 02:15 PM
But Gray that takes a lot more work than being able to Hulk Smash :rolleyes:

Hey! Hulk is my favorite superhero character! Don't you dare badmouth him!! :D

CandleInTheDark
04-23-2017, 02:19 PM
Hey! Hulk is my favorite superhero character! Don't you dare badmouth him!! :D

I tend to prefer the bad guys in comics they have better stories >.> Loki and Catwoman among my favourites though you could argue Catwoman is more a grey one now.

Gray360UK
04-23-2017, 02:30 PM
Hey! Hulk is my favorite superhero character! Don't you dare badmouth him!! :D

Pro tip: Bruce Banner was not exposed to high levels of Gamma Radiation, The Hulk is actually the result of early Revenge mode tests.

Mind blown ;)

kweassa1917
04-23-2017, 03:10 PM
Pro tip: Bruce Banner was not exposed to high levels of Gamma Radiation, The Hulk is actually the result of early Revenge mode tests.

Mind blown ;)

Oh My God...

CandleInTheDark
04-23-2017, 03:14 PM
Pro tip: Bruce Banner was not exposed to high levels of Gamma Radiation, The Hulk is actually the result of early Revenge mode tests.

Mind blown ;)

That doesn't make sense,, The Hulk is green, revenge is orange >.>

iiRAINBOW_DASH
04-23-2017, 04:06 PM
Yeah a broken mechanic allowing you to one to two shot people is plenty of skill.
I can still two shot people because of OP feat. It has nothing to do with revenge.

Antonioj26
04-23-2017, 04:35 PM
I can still two shot people because of OP feat. It has nothing to do with revenge.

Sounds like op feats isn't good enough for you. You need super Saiyan mode to win or else you wouldn't have started this thread

BananaBlighter
04-23-2017, 05:05 PM
That doesn't make sense,, The Hulk is green, revenge is orange >.>

They should make revenge mode green. Sometimes I get confused when someone uses revenge because it makes it harder to tell whether they are a defender or attacker since attackers are already orange.

The_B0G_
04-23-2017, 05:21 PM
Like many have already said, and the devs have said, the revenge mechanic was supposed to be a tool to "help" in an outnumbered situation, but what we had were revenge built players running into the Dominion zone closest to the enemy spawn and being able to win 3v1 and even 4v1 all match. Now if you try that, a good player can probably still beat 2v1 but a 3v1 will be much harder to win; and that is how it should be. If you have ever been in a real fight you'd know fighting three people at once you basically haven't got much chance unless you get some really good hits in, that's the way the game is now, you can still win 3v1 but you can't just mash heavy attack while spinning back and forth to do it, you still have to be defensive and pick your spots to attack, reckless attacking doesn't work post revenge nerf.

If you see a gank squad coming that means 2 things:
1.There is unprotected zones out there that would be easy to capture.
2. You probably should run seeing how fighting 3v1 - 4v1 is usually a losing scenario, run to your teammates, even if you are with randoms they will attack enemies if they see them.

I've played quite a few games against gank squads and if you just keep capturing zones while your teammates fight them and keep them busy it doesn't matter if you lose every fight, they will break first, then every kill you get, they aren't coming back and you win. It's frustrating getting killed all match, but it's hilariously fun beating a team when they are all around 15-3 and your team is all around 5-9 because they spent the whole game playing Dominion like a Deathmatch mode lol ganking isn't a good strategy for Dominion. Elimination and Skirmish, it is, but it's always been that way, everyone rolls in groups in Elim after the first fight, and Skirmish is just 2 teams rolling in groups, you start the fight that way.

Fight smarter, don't expect to win outnumbered all the time, also I'm not sure how it's less exciting now that you have to fight harder to win outnumbered, some could say it's boring popping god mode every 3 blocks and getting a free hit with massive damage, Shugoki with revenge/attack build could kill anyone with one heavy when they're at full health. It was broken, plain and simple.

AKDagriZ
04-23-2017, 06:54 PM
the truth is in the 3 first week after release facing 2-3 opponent was the most exciting part of this game . after couple weeks player got better and now revenge is nerfed it is almost impossible to survive against 3 average good player.Now i don,t find it even funny to fight against 2 opponent.

2 good player against espescialy if their is a shield basher in the deal you stand no chance

kweassa1917
04-23-2017, 07:06 PM
the truth is in the 3 first week after release facing 2-3 opponent was the most exciting part of this game . after couple weeks player got better and now revenge is nerfed it is almost impossible to survive against 3 average good player.Now i don,t find it even funny to fight against 2 opponent.

2 good player against espescialy if their is a shield basher in the deal you stand no chance

Which is to be expected. So what's the problem?

CitizenPuddi
04-23-2017, 07:11 PM
the truth is in the 3 first week after release facing 2-3 opponent was the most exciting part of this game . after couple weeks player got better and now revenge is nerfed it is almost impossible to survive against 3 average good player.Now i don,t find it even funny to fight against 2 opponent.

2 good player against espescialy if their is a shield basher in the deal you stand no chance

Finding yourself on the losing end of a 1v2 is impossible if you simply find a single teammate (you have three to choose from) and stay close to them.

When you find yourself in a 1v2 situation, that mean your team is losing-- either because they're not there to help or because they're all dead. Of course it's not as fun as hitting a button and nearly guaranteeing yourself a win. It's a sign that you're about to lose.

A shield basher and an attacker can't do much against someone that knows how to position properly.

Positioning is a skill.

Look into it.

Antonioj26
04-23-2017, 07:38 PM
the truth is in the 3 first week after release facing 2-3 opponent was the most exciting part of this game . after couple weeks player got better and now revenge is nerfed it is almost impossible to survive against 3 average good player.Now i don,t find it even funny to fight against 2 opponent.

2 good player against espescialy if their is a shield basher in the deal you stand no chance

Where the hell are people getting this assumption that they should be winning 2v1s if the people are even close in skill? What other game let's you go into god mode by attacking a group? If I'm playing any fps, rpg, beat em up, whatever other genre, the assumption should be if I'm outnumbered the odds are I am going to lose which is exactly how it should be. 2 is better than 1, 3 is better than 2 and so on. It's like that in this game and it's like that in every other game I can think of where the battlefield is even.

That's not to say you can't win but imagine if this game was like every other game and the revenge mechanic never existed. You would have learned by now to sick with your team
And not have relied on the crutch that is revenge. It wasn't even a crutch as much as it was someone attaching cybernetic legs to you. It promoted bad tactics of running into a group by yourself like an idiot and being out of position in a team based game. I've yet to hear a good argument as to why the nerf shouldn't have happened. It being less fun for you isn't an argument.

FledgeSRondo
04-23-2017, 08:12 PM
I'm a Rep 21/18 Warden and I have to agree about this ganking issue. What folks don't seem to understand is that by discouraging ganking, Revenge Mode encouraged intense 1v1 dueling on the battlefield. You had to actually understand the Art of Combat system, character movesets, mindgames and the like in order to play effectively against opponents, which takes genuine skill and lots of practice, in a sense making other modes like Duel/Brawl very complementary to modes like Dominion. Before I would actually get pretty annoyed when oblivious lower-level teammates would interrupt my fights on the field thinking they were being "helpful", as they would inevitably pop my opponent's Revenge and get us both killed when I was often already winning. It happened far too many times, you would think my teammates would put the puzzle pieces together, but like dopey, indulgent puppies they kept barging in without understanding why ganking actually punished them, and become despondent instead of applying their critical faculties to realize they should simply step back and not interfere, playing patiently and judiciously instead of like an over-zealous, undiscriminating child.

However, with Revenge now nerfed, players don't have any incentive to apply any actual fighting depth and nuance whatsoever, they just need to gang and spam. I've encountered many lower-level players who play For Honor like it's a button mashing game, and where previously they would be punished for their lack of knowledge/training they're now rewarded for it. I know that winning is "fun", but for many players being able to skillfully apply the Art of Combat system on the battlefield was a big appeal, and Revenge encouraged that. Without an effective deterrent to ganking, the only options in an outnumbered scenario are to either be killed or survive long enough to pop Revenge and try to run away (if your Sprint speed is high enough and you're not facing a group of PK's), neither of which requires any skill whatsoever.

Yes, Revenge was pretty OP when it was actually triggered, and I'm not saying it should return to how it was, but there WERE ways to deal with it or avoid it altogether: you simply refrained from ganging up on opponents and would have to be skilled enough to beat them in 1v1 combat, or if they got Revenge you simply kept your distance and played carefully, long enough for the Revenge to wear out instead of blindly attacking like a lemming (or, if you were like me, you enjoyed the challenge of fighting an OP version of a player and seeing if you could intentionally break their Revenge with your own skill, which I did many times). Now when I corner enemies to a fight and they realize they're not skilled enough to win, they run off like cowards and stick to their teammates, and just like in real life there's nothing admirable about a weakling scrambling away from his superior to the safe advantage of numbers. Smart? Sure. Skilled? Hell no. This is not encouraging people to improve and become seasoned fighters in the Art of Combat system, it's essentially encouraging them to play like gangs. And here I have to note my personal distinction between a gang and a team: gangs profit by the strength of numbers to gain advantages over their outnumbered prey, though their individual members may actually be weak and not actually care about their peers beyond advancing their own selfish ends. Teams are groups of people who intelligently collaborate by combining their individual strengths towards a common shared goal, where every member is valuable to the collective effort. It's like the difference between Xerxes army of disposable minion hordes and the Spartans. People bandy about "teamwork" when referring to ganking to confer some semblance of nobility, when what they're actually talking about is undisciplined thuggery.

To me, the team aspect of these multiplayer modes is in the strategy of the overall map play, on reading the battlefield layout, intelligently securing objectives, discerning application of feats and gear builds, clever environmental play, coordinating your actions and positions against those of your teammates and opponents, and more, not just running around with a kill buddy and cornering/steamrolling solitary players like thugs. Revenge may not have required skill when triggered, but on the flipside it punished ganking and instead encouraged skilled 1v1 as an integral component of the 4v4 setting, adding depth to the rich tapestry of 4v4 play by making the Art of Combat system genuinely viable on the battlefield. You could say "if you want to duel, then play in duel mode", but that would essentially be saying that all the depth and nuance of the Art of Combat has no place in a 4v4 setting.

Ubisoft could introduce a "Casual" mode that removes Revenge and allows players to be mindless gangs of ganking button mashers, and a "Glory" mode that includes Revenge to punish ganking and encourage skilled high-level combat.

CitizenPuddi
04-23-2017, 08:22 PM
I'm a Rep 21/18 Warden and I have to agree about this ganking issue. What folks don't seem to understand is that by discouraging ganking, Revenge Mode encouraged intense 1v1 dueling on the battlefield. You had to actually understand the Art of Combat system, character movesets, mindgames and the like in order to play effectively against opponents, which takes genuine skill and lots of practice, in a sense making other modes like Duel/Brawl very complementary to modes like Dominion. Before I would actually get pretty annoyed when oblivious lower-level teammates would interrupt my fights on the field thinking they were being "helpful", as they would inevitably pop my opponent's Revenge and get us both killed when I was often already winning. It happened far too many times, you would think my teammates would put the puzzle pieces together, but like dopey, indulgent puppies they kept barging in without understanding why ganking actually punished them, and become despondent instead of applying their critical faculties to realize they should simply step back and not interfere, playing patiently and judiciously instead of like an over-zealous, undiscriminating child.

However, with Revenge now nerfed, players don't have any incentive to apply any actual fighting depth and nuance whatsoever, they just need to gang and spam. I've encountered many lower-level players who play For Honor like it's a button mashing game, and where previously they would be punished for their lack of knowledge/training they're now rewarded for it. I know that winning is "fun", but for many players being able to skillfully apply the Art of Combat system on the battlefield was a big appeal, and Revenge encouraged that. Without an effective deterrent to ganking, the only options in an outnumbered scenario are to either be killed or survive long enough to pop Revenge and try to run away (if your Sprint speed is high enough and you're not facing a group of PK's), neither of which requires any skill whatsoever.

Yes, Revenge was pretty OP when it was actually triggered, and I'm not saying it should return to how it was, but there WERE ways to deal with it or avoid it altogether: you simply refrained from ganging up on opponents and would have to be skilled enough to beat them in 1v1 combat, or if they got Revenge you simply kept your distance and played carefully, long enough for the Revenge to wear out instead of blindly attacking like a lemming (or, if you were like me, you enjoyed the challenge of fighting an OP version of a player and seeing if you could intentionally break their Revenge with your own skill, which I did many times). Now when I corner enemies to a fight and they realize they're not skilled enough to win, they run off like cowards and stick to their teammates, and just like in real life there's nothing admirable about a weakling scrambling away from his superior to the safe advantage of numbers. Smart? Sure. Skilled? Hell no. This is not encouraging people to improve and become seasoned fighters in the Art of Combat system, it's essentially encouraging them to play like gangs. And here I have to note my personal distinction between a gang and a team: gangs profit by the strength of numbers to gain advantages over their outnumbered prey, though their individual members may actually be weak and not actually care about their peers beyond advancing their own selfish ends. Teams are groups of people who intelligently collaborate by combining their individual strengths towards a common shared goal, where every member is valuable to the collective effort. It's like the difference between Xerxes army of disposable minion hordes and the Spartans. People bandy about "teamwork" when referring to ganking to confer some semblance of nobility, when what they're actually talking about is common thuggery.

To me, the team aspect of these multiplayer modes is in the strategy of the overall map play, on reading the battlefield layout, intelligently securing objectives, discerning application of feats and gear builds, clever environmental play, coordinating your actions and positions against those of your teammates and opponents, and more, not just running around with a kill buddy and cornering/steamrolling solitary players like thugs. Revenge may not have required skill when triggered, but on the flipside it punished ganking and instead encouraged skilled 1v1 as an integral component of the 4v4 setting, adding depth to the rich tapestry of 4v4 play by making the Art of Combat system genuinely viable on the battlefield. You could say "if you want to duel, then play in duel mode", but that would essentially be saying that all the depth and nuance of the Art of Combat has no place in a 4v4 setting.

Ubisoft could introduce a "Casual" mode that removes Revenge and allows players to be mindless gangs of ganking button mashers, and a "Glory" mode that includes Revenge to punish ganking and encourage skilled high-level combat.

looks like there is some glorious re-hashing to be done

something something team mode something use your team because team mode, etc., etc. the world doesn't revolve around you so stop looking at anything but duels as "me vs the entire enemy team" especially when you can take steps to keep that from happening but refuse to because reasons

insert reminder that it is pretty much impossible to to face a 1v2/3/4 if you simply stand in sight of a teammate here, yet another reminder that 2v2 is not dual duel and 4v4 is not quad duel just for kicks

FledgeSRondo
04-23-2017, 08:27 PM
looks like there is some glorious re-hashing to be done

something something team mode something use your team because team mode, etc., etc. the world doesn't revolve around you so stop looking at anything but duels as "me vs the entire enemy team" especially when you can take steps to keep that from happening but refuse to because reasons

insert reminder that it is pretty much impossible to to face a 1v2/3/4 if you simply stand in sight of a teammate here, yet another reminder that 2v2 is not dual duel and 4v4 is not quad duel just for kicks

That is a wildly gross and frankly lazy oversimplification. You should be more considerate and thoughtful instead of casually dismissive, I raised perfectly valid points while admitting the flaws of Revenge previously, and even offered solutions. Condescension and simplistic reasoning won't reconcile these issues.

Antonioj26
04-23-2017, 08:28 PM
I'm a Rep 21/18 Warden and I have to agree about this ganking issue. What folks don't seem to understand is that by discouraging ganking, Revenge Mode encouraged intense 1v1 dueling on the battlefield. You had to actually understand the Art of Combat system, character movesets, mindgames and the like in order to play effectively against opponents, which takes genuine skill and lots of practice, in a sense making other modes like Duel/Brawl very complementary to modes like Dominion. Before I would actually get pretty annoyed when oblivious lower-level teammates would interrupt my fights on the field thinking they were being "helpful", as they would inevitably pop my opponent's Revenge and get us both killed when I was often already winning. It happened far too many times, you would think my teammates would put the puzzle pieces together, but like dopey, indulgent puppies they kept barging in without understanding why ganking actually punished them, and become despondent instead of applying their critical faculties to realize they should simply step back and not interfere, playing patiently and judiciously instead of like an over-zealous, undiscriminating child.

However, with Revenge now nerfed, players don't have any incentive to apply any actual fighting depth and nuance whatsoever, they just need to gang and spam. I've encountered many lower-level players who play For Honor like it's a button mashing game, and where previously they would be punished for their lack of knowledge/training they're now rewarded for it. I know that winning is "fun", but for many players being able to skillfully apply the Art of Combat system on the battlefield was a big appeal, and Revenge encouraged that. Without an effective deterrent to ganking, the only options in an outnumbered scenario are to either be killed or survive long enough to pop Revenge and try to run away (if your Sprint speed is high enough and you're not facing a group of PK's), neither of which requires any skill whatsoever.

Yes, Revenge was pretty OP when it was actually triggered, and I'm not saying it should return to how it was, but there WERE ways to deal with it or avoid it altogether: you simply refrained from ganging up on opponents and would have to be skilled enough to beat them in 1v1 combat, or if they got Revenge you simply kept your distance and played carefully, long enough for the Revenge to wear out instead of blindly attacking like a lemming (or, if you were like me, you enjoyed the challenge of fighting an OP version of a player and seeing if you could intentionally break their Revenge with your own skill, which I did many times). Now when I corner enemies to a fight and they realize they're not skilled enough to win, they run off like cowards and stick to their teammates, and just like in real life there's nothing admirable about a weakling scrambling away from his superior to the safe advantage of numbers. Smart? Sure. Skilled? Hell no. This is not encouraging people to improve and become seasoned fighters in the Art of Combat system, it's essentially encouraging them to play like gangs. And here I have to note my personal distinction between a gang and a team: gangs profit by the strength of numbers to gain advantages over their outnumbered prey, though their individual members may actually be weak and not actually care about their peers beyond advancing their own selfish ends. Teams are groups of people who intelligently collaborate by combining their individual strengths towards a common shared goal, where every member is valuable to the collective effort. It's like the difference between Xerxes army of disposable minion hordes and the Spartans. People bandy about "teamwork" when referring to ganking to confer some semblance of nobility, when what they're actually talking about is undisciplined thuggery.

To me, the team aspect of these multiplayer modes is in the strategy of the overall map play, on reading the battlefield layout, intelligently securing objectives, discerning application of feats and gear builds, clever environmental play, coordinating your actions and positions against those of your teammates and opponents, and more, not just running around with a kill buddy and cornering/steamrolling solitary players like thugs. Revenge may not have required skill when triggered, but on the flipside it punished ganking and instead encouraged skilled 1v1 as an integral component of the 4v4 setting, adding depth to the rich tapestry of 4v4 play by making the Art of Combat system genuinely viable on the battlefield. You could say "if you want to duel, then play in duel mode", but that would essentially be saying that all the depth and nuance of the Art of Combat has no place in a 4v4 setting.

Ubisoft could introduce a "Casual" mode that removes Revenge and allows players to be mindless gangs of ganking button mashers, and a "Glory" mode that includes Revenge to punish ganking and encourage skilled high-level combat.

this "art of combat" you speak of sounds like an arbitrary way that you think everyone should play the game. The incentive of learning how to truly fight and not spam top heavies is you will win more often. If you are worried about people running during a fight play elimination and yes people will run but with only the exception of the assassins you can catch just about everyone else with your run attack.

They had a casual mode already, it was called revenge. You mentioned it punished people charging in to gank but it actually rewarded whoever stacked revenge gear and decided to run into a group of 2 or 3 and would give them the upper hand. What's the group suppose to do? Just watch a 1v1 fight for fear the guy will go god mode for glancing at him the wrong way? You just took 2 guys out of a fight with this ridiculous logic and now the other team is capping on your points or collecting power ups. Absurd thinking man.

Antonioj26
04-23-2017, 08:34 PM
That is a wildly gross and frankly lazy oversimplification. You should be more considerate and thoughtful instead of casually dismissive.

But it is simple, 1<2, 2<3, 3<4. Most battles are won by numbers and that's all games.

CitizenPuddi
04-23-2017, 08:35 PM
That is a wildly gross and frankly lazy oversimplification. You should be more considerate and thoughtful instead of casually dismissive, I raised perfectly valid points while admitting the flaws of Revenge previously, and even offered solutions. Condescension and simplistic reasoning won't reconcile these issues.

I can only go over the same points so many many times before it starts getting really, really old.

You want to talk over-simplification? Insinuating that people playing together as a team and winning because their opponents refused to play together is a team is "thuggish" or "low skill".

That's an over-simplification.

Casually dismissive? Loads of people have commented their essay's-worth in this very thread. Did you read any of that or did you casually dismiss it?

What valid points did you raise? All I got from that was "I'm a high-level warden and I think a weaker revenge mode has magically made players lose incentive to learn the game-- im so skilled i even enjoyed fighting against the pre-nerf revenge mode" and "any time someone mentions team play (except for me of course) they mean ganging up on one person, the sniveling cowards".

AKDagriZ
04-23-2017, 09:28 PM
Finding yourself on the losing end of a 1v2 is impossible if you simply find a single teammate (you have three to choose from) and stay close to them.

When you find yourself in a 1v2 situation, that mean your team is losing-- either because they're not there to help or because they're all dead. Of course it's not as fun as hitting a button and nearly guaranteeing yourself a win. It's a sign that you're about to lose.

A shield basher and an attacker can't do much against someone that knows how to position properly.

Positioning is a skill.

Look into it.

you got to be kiding me ? 1D 21H 58M this is your total playtime
Mine is 8D 3H 56M

are you really gonna teach me how this game work ? while this guy FledgeSRondo and me have 7 time more time played in this game . I think we ve been trough a lot of **** since the release excluding beta test and our opinion matter you should listen instead of teaching us battlefield psychology in for honor

CitizenPuddi
04-23-2017, 09:32 PM
you got to be kiding me ? 1D 21H 58M this is your total playtime
Mine is 8D 3H 56M

are you really gonna teach me how this game work ? while this guy FledgeSRondo and me have 7 time more time played in this game . I think we ve been trough a lot of **** since the release excluding beta test and our opinion matter you should listen instead of teaching us battlefield psychology in for honor

So are you saying that standing next to a willing teammate doesn't nullify the chance of you finding yourself in a 1v2/3/4 and that positioning isn't an important skill?

If so, that really speaks volumes about the relationship between playtime and one's ability to analyze and make use of game mechanics.

Sykoink
04-23-2017, 09:33 PM
This is a very important topic. So we had revenge before the patch which was too strong, but people finally started to learn how to deal with it just before it got nerfed. Now we have revenge nerfed and the creator of this topic is right, these new tactics where people run in a group from point to point taking out each player button mashing unblockables and heavy's and the only thing you can do is see them coming is run for your life or if you are fighting against 1 person, and all of a sudden 3 others show up again, you're dead.

Now you may say, this is how it works, when you're outnumbered you are dead meat. The problem i'm also starting to notice now in Dominion is that its becoming a trend to do this and it's just not fun. Why? Because when you queue up for a Dominion match on your own, you get random teammates and i'm getting teamed up with people that DON'T use the ''run around in a group'' tactic so there is just no point in even trying anymore. Team gets ganked constantly, and they leave, i have a team full of bots..new people join...rinse and repeat.

I play all game modes but i like Dominion the most but this is getting on my nerves as well. I never had a full revenge build before the patch and i got killed easily with the OP revenge pre-patch builds UNTIL everybody started learning not to hit that person all at once otherwise everybody was doomed.

Now comparing pre-patch and post patch matches in Dominion, the majority anyway, i have to say i liked the pre-patch Dominion matches way more then what is happening right now. When i get into a Dominion match now, i see 4 blue or orange icons running in a group i think to myself oh...here we go again, another match where we all know what is going to happen.

If the dev team only changed how fast people build up their revenge, and maybe a little less damage then i think it would be fine and you still had a tool to use against so many attackers.

ImTiredOfU
04-23-2017, 09:36 PM
Why the **** do you want this game like every other game I don't get it. Every time a different person is for revenge you ****ing morons get on here saying this. Frankly doesn't matter what valid points people tell you morons you still spout off the same stupid ****. Just because every other game is that way why make this. This is by far your dumbest reasoning for the revenge nerf. Just sad the community can't express their concerns without you ******s jumping in with the same dumb **** while ignoring everyone's point of it being boring and dumb down. I guess your problem is now it's your level so you don't see it as dumb down. Alright back to learning this unlock tech/feints/flickers you pro player use to be gud. So I can help kill the player base as I bash people with unblockable unlock tech. 😂

CitizenPuddi
04-23-2017, 09:39 PM
Why the **** do you want this game like every other game I don't get it. Every time a different person is for revenge you ****ing morons get on here saying this. Frankly doesn't matter what valid points people tell you morons you still spout off the same stupid ****. Just because every other game is that way why make this. This is by far your dumbest reasoning for the revenge nerf. Just sad the community can't express their concerns without you ******s jumping in with the same dumb **** while ignoring everyone's point of it being boring and dumb down. I guess your problem is now it's your level so you don't see it as dumb down. Alright back to learning this unlock tech/feints/flickers you pro player use to be gud. So I can help kill the player base as I bash people with unblockable unlock tech. ��

stay classy

AKDagriZ
04-23-2017, 09:44 PM
So are you saying that standing next to a willing teammate doesn't nullify the chance of you finding yourself in a 1v2/3/4 and that positioning isn't an important skill?

If so, that really speaks volumes about the relationship between playtime and one's ability to analyze and make use of game mechanics.

of course it is important . but harder to do than said.you will meet the best opportunity on positioning and being near teamate once in a while

AKDagriZ
04-23-2017, 09:46 PM
This is a very important topic. So we had revenge before the patch which was too strong, but people finally started to learn how to deal with it just before it got nerfed. Now we have revenge nerfed and the creator of this topic is right, these new tactics where people run in a group from point to point taking out each player button mashing unblockables and heavy's and the only thing you can do is see them coming is run for your life or if you are fighting against 1 person, and all of a sudden 3 others show up again, you're dead.

Now you may say, this is how it works, when you're outnumbered you are dead meat. The problem i'm also starting to notice now in Dominion is that its becoming a trend to do this and it's just not fun. Why? Because when you queue up for a Dominion match on your own, you get random teammates and i'm getting teamed up with people that DON'T use the ''run around in a group'' tactic so there is just no point in even trying anymore. Team gets ganked constantly, and they leave, i have a team full of bots..new people join...rinse and repeat.

I play all game modes but i like Dominion the most but this is getting on my nerves as well. I never had a full revenge build before the patch and i got killed easily with the OP revenge pre-patch builds UNTIL everybody started learning not to hit that person all at once otherwise everybody was doomed.

Now comparing pre-patch and post patch matches in Dominion, the majority anyway, i have to say i liked the pre-patch Dominion matches way more then what is happening right now. When i get into a Dominion match now, i see 4 blue or orange icons running in a group i think to myself oh...here we go again, another match where we all know what is going to happen.

If the dev team only changed how fast people build up their revenge, and maybe a little less damage then i think it would be fine and you still had a tool to use against so many attackers.

i think devs play much more brawl tha anything else

CitizenPuddi
04-23-2017, 09:49 PM
of course it is important . but harder to do than said.you will meet the best opportunity on positioning and being near teamate once in a while

I mean.... I don't have to no-life this game to tell you that you can take steps to make yourself available to a teammate and vice-versa.

ImTiredOfU
04-23-2017, 09:50 PM
Why stay classy so you trolls can ignore valid points like I said the comunity is sick of you hence the flood of new people making post but like I said always same 6 defending it. You said you were right because we didn't speak up but when we do you dismiss everything that is said. You guys are impossible to have a intellectual conversation and have proved that in ever thread.

kweassa1917
04-23-2017, 09:56 PM
Why stay classy so you trolls can ignore valid points like I said the comunity is sick of you hence the flood of new people making post but like I said always same 6 defending it. You said you were right because we didn't speak up but when we do you dismiss everything that is said. You guys are impossible to have a intellectual conversation and have proved that in ever thread.

If it pleases you, we humbly concede defeat, o wise one. :rolleyes:

Auztinito
04-23-2017, 09:58 PM
Where the hell are people getting this assumption that they should be winning 2v1s if the people are even close in skill? What other game let's you go into god mode by attacking a group? If I'm playing any fps, rpg, beat em up, whatever other genre, the assumption should be if I'm outnumbered the odds are I am going to lose which is exactly how it should be. 2 is better than 1, 3 is better than 2 and so on. It's like that in this game and it's like that in every other game I can think of where the battlefield is even.

That's not to say you can't win but imagine if this game was like every other game and the revenge mechanic never existed. You would have learned by now to sick with your team
And not have relied on the crutch that is revenge. It wasn't even a crutch as much as it was someone attaching cybernetic legs to you. It promoted bad tactics of running into a group by yourself like an idiot and being out of position in a team based game. I've yet to hear a good argument as to why the nerf shouldn't have happened. It being less fun for you isn't an argument.

You obviously haven't played enough games.It's possible in just about every team based & skill-based game to "clutch".Socom,R6:Siege,Battlefield,Paragon,DCUO,Destiny,& every Call of Duty.

As for the other thing I underlined.Since when?Is there a fear of hitting teammates?No unless you have barely any health.Is there limits on heroes?Only 1-2 game modes.Is there limited use of feats?No,they all operate on a cooldown.Team-based game.Don't make me laugh.This won't be a REAL team-based game mechanics until those are put in place.

AKDagriZ
04-23-2017, 09:58 PM
Sykoink

has very valid point .Well said

i was a fervant defensor of let gank flow ! Now i really disaprove it . While yes in Dominion you have to gank to defend some zones . Some characther like ORo and Warden were able ''pre patch'' to hold a flag by emself for the entire game with revenge boost.Now people still have the mindset to gank at all cost . And you see it as well in elimination/deadmatch. which is stupid . people should really stop ganking outside of skirmish and dominion.People appreciate more and more clean fight.
2v1 is not ganking by the way.
How much better do you feel after killing the last one standing 4v1 ?
How better you feel when you retaliate in deadmatch and you pick one by one the other team 4V1 ?

kweassa1917
04-23-2017, 10:11 PM
You obviously haven't played enough games.It's possible in just about every team based & skill-based game allows "clutching".Socom,R6:Siege,Battlefield,Paragon,DCUO,Destiny,& every Call of Duty.

Socom - gun
R6 - gun
Battlefield - gun
Paragon - gun
Destiny - gun
Call of Duty - gun
DCUO - long range powers :rolleyes:


You wanna tell us what happens when you get ganged up by 4~5 people in those games when you limit the armament to knives?



As for the other thing I underlined.Since when?Is there a fear of hitting teammates?No unless you have barely any health.Is there limits on heroes?Only 1-2 game modes.Is there limited use of feats?No,they all operate on a cooldown.Team-based game.Don't make me laugh.This won't be a REAL team-based game mechanics until those are put in place.

Kinda hypocritic, isn't it? You're asking for the devs to reinstate a mechanic that allows a single person take on an entire team, and suddenly your point is this isn't a team game? ROFL

CitizenPuddi
04-23-2017, 10:13 PM
Most of the posts I see from people against the revenge change can basically be boiled down to "The meta is changing and I don't like it".

They can talk about how they always wind up outnumbered without a chance (because that totally never happened before the nerf) all they want, but it is what it is.

Something has changed that was central to their playstyle, and they're resistant to that change and don't want to adjust their gameplay .

That's natural I guess.

All I can do is recommend that people do the unthinkable and communicate and play with their team in the team-based modes.

Lest they continue getting wrecked against other players that communicate and play with their teams in team-based modes.

CitizenPuddi
04-23-2017, 10:24 PM
Socom - gun
R6 - gun
Battlefield - gun
Paragon - gun
Destiny - gun
Call of Duty - gun
DCUO - long range powers :rolleyes:


You wanna tell us what happens when you get ganged up by 4~5 people in those games when you limit the armament to knives?


Clutching is usually a display of extreme skill, not a "press button wreck face" sort of deal.

Clutching post-nerf is now actually a display of extreme skill.

Funny that some people want to cheapen that.

Auztinito
04-23-2017, 10:25 PM
Socom - gun
R6 - gun
Battlefield - gun
Paragon - gun
Destiny - gun
Call of Duty - gun
DCUO - long range powers :rolleyes:


You wanna tell us what happens when you get ganged up by 4~5 people in those games when you limit the armament to knives?




Kinda hypocritic, isn't it? You're asking for the devs to reinstate a mechanic that allows a single person take on an entire team, and suddenly your point is this isn't a team game? ROFL
Paragon does have melee combat & DCUO is mostly melee with powers.Try playing those games sometime.You honestly,should not have any say on Revenge.You have already stated you rely on teammates for your lack of skill.

I don't want pre-nerf version.Revenge needs either Defense buffed by minuscule or Friendly Fire needs buffed.This was advertised as a unique fighting game not a team-based game.
You pride yourself to the point of narcissism on how you use "teamwork" and practically advocate for it,yet you are against any & all suggestions on adding team-work mechanics like buffed FF & ect.You only comment on anything Revenge-related with the same old lines.You even use positioning as one of your feats & something people should use but your not willing to position yourself correctly to avoid hitting a teammate in the case of a buffed FF.
C'mon.Who's the real hypocrite,here?Here's a clue:Look into a mirror.

Auztinito
04-23-2017, 10:29 PM
Clutching is usually a display of extreme skill, not a "press button wreck face" sort of deal.

Clutching post-nerf is now actually a display of extreme skill.

Funny that some people want to cheapen that.

If you got your *** kicked constantly because of Revenge.You have more to worry about that revenge mode.I never had problems with Revenge besides it being gained way to quick.I used it & fought those that did use it.Here's a tip.You are supposed to parry or deflect when they swing.If your ganging it was called guard-break & disable moves like Longarm,Shoulder Bash,& ect.

CitizenPuddi
04-23-2017, 10:29 PM
You honestly,should not have any say on Revenge.You have already stated you rely on teammates for your lack of skill.

yeah man michael jordan shouldn't have any say on anything related basketball

can you believe that scrub actually relied on his teammates most of the time during his career?

CitizenPuddi
04-23-2017, 10:31 PM
If you got your *** kicked constantly because of Revenge.You have more to worry about that revenge mode.I never had problems with Revenge besides it being gained way to quick.I used it & fought those that did use it.Here's a tip.You are supposed to parry or deflect when they swing.If your ganging it was called guard-break & disable moves like Longarm,Shoulder Bash,& ect.

Look at you, making assumptions.

How adorable.

Antonioj26
04-23-2017, 10:31 PM
You obviously haven't played enough games.It's possible in just about every team based & skill-based game to "clutch".Socom,R6:Siege,Battlefield,Paragon,DCUO,Destiny,& every Call of Duty.

As for the other thing I underlined.Since when?Is there a fear of hitting teammates?No unless you have barely any health.Is there limits on heroes?Only 1-2 game modes.Is there limited use of feats?No,they all operate on a cooldown.Team-based game.Don't make me laugh.This won't be a REAL team-based game mechanics until those are put in place.

Yes you can still clutch in those games and you still can here in for honor but guess what? In none of those games the single guy isn't given an advantage, the guys who played as a group are. You shouldn't be handed an easy win because you think you are goku. That's how it should be, rewarding a nooby run into every group I see by myself tactic because I know I'll have god mode enabled isn't the right way to try and win fights.

Antonioj26
04-23-2017, 10:37 PM
You obviously haven't played enough games.It's possible in just about every team based & skill-based game to "clutch".Socom,R6:Siege,Battlefield,Paragon,DCUO,Destiny,& every Call of Duty.

As for the other thing I underlined.Since when?Is there a fear of hitting teammates?No unless you have barely any health.Is there limits on heroes?Only 1-2 game modes.Is there limited use of feats?No,they all operate on a cooldown.Team-based game.Don't make me laugh.This won't be a REAL team-based game mechanics until those are put in place.

All these arbitrary rules that makes it a "team based game" overwatch has almost none of those with the exception of hero limits, but I guess that isn't one either. Do you have a goal that needs to be Achieved to win fighting along side teammates against opponents who are also on a team? If yes then it's a team based game.

Auztinito
04-23-2017, 10:41 PM
yeah man michael jordan shouldn't have any say on anything related basketball

can you believe that scrub actually relied on his teammates most of the time during his career?

A team-based sport from the get-go.Also,was he hiding behind his team due to a lack of skill at the game?I doubt it but it's possible.Reading comprehension,much?


Yes you can still clutch in those games and you still can here in for honor but guess what? In none of those games the single guy isn't given an advantage, the guys who played as a group are. You shouldn't be handed an easy win because you think you are goku. That's how it should be, rewarding a nooby run into every group I see by myself tactic because I know I'll have god mode enabled isn't the right way to try and win fights.

Those games don't need Revenge mechanics because you are on a level playing field with guns that more or less do the same damage & doesn't have gear stats besides DCUO(it's an MMO).Guess which For Honor has.Gear Stats & does different weapon damage even if you're the same character as someone else.Duel and Brawl are where everything is mostly normalized.Those would be more fitting to your argument.


Look at you, making assumptions.

Cute.

It's a logical one.Most people that hate Revenge hate it because they were killed by someone using it.

Auztinito
04-23-2017, 10:43 PM
All these arbitrary rules that makes it a "team based game" overwatch has almost none of those with the exception of hero limits, but I guess that isn't one either. Do you have a goal that needs to be Achieved to win fighting along side teammates against opponents who are also on a team? If yes then it's a team based game.

Overwatch?The arcade shooter that is literally relies on refex/skill alone,shooter.Please,next you'll say Call of Duty is comepletly a team-based shooter because it has teams & 2K Sport games are RPGs because you can choose different position with a custom charcaters.
:D

kweassa1917
04-23-2017, 10:49 PM
Paragon does have melee combat & DCUO is mostly melee with powers.Try playing those games sometime.You honestly,should not have any say on Revenge.You have already stated you rely on teammates for your lack of skill.

Let's say that is true. Not all players are of equal skill.

So you're basically saying people that are less skilled than you have to come to you alone and die and give you easy wins, instead of forming up to cover weaknesses.

Selfish, no?



I don't want pre-nerf version.Revenge needs either Defense buffed by minuscule or Friendly Fire needs buffed.This was advertised as a unique fighting game not a team-based game.
You pride yourself to the point of narcissism on how you use "teamwork" and practically advocate for it,yet you are against any & all suggestions on adding team-work mechanics like buffed FF & ect.

Teamwork begins with the concept of "team". Your revenge whines and likes of such are basically ANTI-TEAM and a ONE MAN ARMY fetish.

...and I'm the one "against suggestions on adding team work"..? :rolleyes:



You only comment on anything Revenge-related with the same old lines.You even use positioning as one of your feats & something people should use but your not willing to position yourself correctly to avoid hitting a teammate in the case of a buffed FF.

Actually, that's because you're one of the same whiney bunch that make same posts over and over again -- which happens to me one of my interests in write-ups. If you had any other agenda than whining about revenge, you'd probably have seen a lot of other posts I've written. *shrug*

Besides, FF isn't even of relevance here. FF already plenty disrupts team coordination to downright trolling levels when one wishes. Not to mention you being surrounded helplessly and killed is a problem that started long before your need to fault FF.



C'mon.Who's the real hypocrite,here?Here's a clue:Look into a mirror.

Hey, I'm not the guy wanting selfish shi* like "I don't want to die when I played bad", so my conscience is pretty clear. :o

CitizenPuddi
04-23-2017, 10:59 PM
A team-based sport from the get-go.Also,was he hiding behind his team due to a lack of skill at the game?I doubt it but it's possible.Reading comprehension,much?

Wowzers.

So 4v4 deathmatches and objective-based modes that place you on a team against another team aren't team-based modes from the start?

Thanks for enlightening me.

... Speaking of reading comprehension. :rolleyes:


hiding behind his team due to a lack of skill at the game?

Whoah, hey, cool. Another assumption.

Gee wiz Auztinito, you sure are good at pulling those out of thin air.



Those games don't need Revenge mechanics because you are on a level playing field with guns that more or less do the same damage & doesn't have gear stats.Guess which For Honor has.Gear Stats & different weapon damages even if the same character & weapon unless you are in Duel or Brawl where everything is mostly normalized.

Even with gear stats and different playstyles, For Honor doesn't need a super strong force multiplier. I'm not sure why you think it does.

Many other team-based games with different damages and abilities don't. Look at any MOBA.




It's a logical one.Most people that hate Revenge hate it because they were killed by someone using it.

Most people didn't like the uber revenge mode because it punishes you for doing well and it disrupted the flow of combat by rewarding whoever you were beating.

I could be tearing someone several new holes and make the mistake of getting blocked and dodged a few times.

They pop revenge mode.

Now I'm on the defensive, and if I slip up once and eat a guardbreak, I'm dead.

The reverse was true.

I could be dead to rights getting eaten alive, sometimes against multiple opponents.

I pop revenge-- now they're all dead.

I didn't earn that.

There was nothing skillful or clutch about it.

I just got rewarded "because reasons" and now I can tank more damage -and- two-shot people for a little while.

That is my beef with a strong revenge mode.

Antonioj26
04-23-2017, 11:00 PM
Overwatch?The arcade shooter that is literally relies on refex/skill alone,shooter.Please,next you'll say Call of Duty is comepletly a team-based shooter because it has teams & 2K Sport games are RPGs because you can choose different position with a custom charcaters.
:D

Yep I will tell you call of duty is a team based game and so is overwatch. Your putting all these other tags on them that don't change whether it's solo based or team based. The game starts with two teams each having their own goal and ends when one of the teams achieve that goal.

Antonioj26
04-23-2017, 11:08 PM
If you got your *** kicked constantly because of Revenge.You have more to worry about that revenge mode.I never had problems with Revenge besides it being gained way to quick.I used it & fought those that did use it.Here's a tip.You are supposed to parry or deflect when they swing.If your ganging it was called guard-break & disable moves like Longarm,Shoulder Bash,& ect.

Here's the problem with pro revenge guys, they always assume its people who were killed by it that are against it. In fact it's the opposite at Least with me, I have my warlord and raider that are above or around 100 (haven't played them in awhile so can't remember exactly where exactly their gear score is) revenge stacked and it was laughably easy to win matches.

Head butt into side heavy was absolutely devastating and when guys were trying to GB, parry, or using an attack that disables I just focus on that guy. It's not much different either with a raider who's unblockable will knock off 4 bars of life if combined from a heavy or light. This doesn't need to be in the game. fighting more enemies shouldn't make the game easier. I don't get the reasoning behind thinking that it should.

ImTiredOfU
04-23-2017, 11:08 PM
None of you anti revenge ever answered my question if your team decided to zerg and mindlessly smash r2 and get destroyed by 1 player how is it your team doesn't suck. Like I said if he happened to kill your other 3 members of you are so good then why not wait till revenge is gone then attack. There is a clear counter to revenge you baddies just failed to see it. See if he killed all 3 then you wait for revenge to go away and you lose then maybe you weren't as good as you thought.

kweassa1917
04-23-2017, 11:10 PM
Most people didn't like the uber revenge mode because it punishes you for doing well and it disrupted the flow of combat by rewarding whoever you were beating.

I could be tearing someone several new holes and make the mistake of getting blocked and dodged a few times.

They pop revenge mode.

Now I'm on the defensive, and if I slip up once and eat a guardbreak, I'm dead.

The reverse was true.

I could be dead to rights getting eaten alive, sometimes against multiple opponents.

I pop revenge-- now they're all dead.

I didn't earn that.

There was nothing skillful about it.

I just got rewarded "because reasons" and now I can tank more damage -and- two-shot people for a little while.

There's actually a point game designers learn about that. It's called "see-saw" effect -- as in, outcome of the fight/game just drastically changing from one side to other side and basically losing any consistency. People studying this warn against games with designs like these because basically it is a form of a gamble. When the outcome just shifts around wishy-washy upon small variables it deters normal people from enjoying it (because the risk and rewards don't match up, and the game feels inconsistent), but on the other hand, draws in players that basically live for the thrill of drastic and unwarranted outcomes.


In other words, :rolleyes: revenge-whiners are addicts.

The 1.05 fix basically cut off their supply oi drugs. And they are in recession.

It'll pass.

Auztinito
04-23-2017, 11:11 PM
Let's say that is true. Not all players are of equal skill.

So you're basically saying people that are less skilled than you have to come to you alone and die and give you easy wins, instead of forming up to cover weaknesses.

Selfish, no?




Teamwork begins with the concept of "team". Your revenge whines and likes of such are basically ANTI-TEAM and a ONE MAN ARMY fetish.

...and I'm the one "against suggestions on adding team work"..? :rolleyes:




Actually, that's because you're one of the same whiney bunch that make same posts over and over again -- which happens to me one of my interests in write-ups. If you had any other agenda than whining about revenge, you'd probably have seen a lot of other posts I've written. *shrug*

Besides, FF isn't even of relevance here. FF already plenty disrupts team coordination to downright trolling levels when one wishes. Not to mention you being surrounded helplessly and killed is a problem that started long before your need to fault FF.




Hey, I'm not the guy wanting selfish shi* like "I don't want to die when I played bad", so my conscience is pretty clear. :o

That's part of being competitive.You have to want to get better on your own merits before you can effectively be part of a team.That rule applies to sports & real life.If you don't want to do that then stick to Single-Player & casual MMOs.

If that was true then games like R6:Siege would not advertise themselves as such.Battlefield wouldn't feel the need to put PTFO as an advert on their games.
This will be summed up below.

Yes,I'm the whiney guy that makes the same post over & over.Projecting much?You've only commented on a select few of threads that are not Revenge related.
You would have to go out your way to hurt or troll another player.You even say it yourself.So buffing it would not change the outcome of being slaughter in 4v1,correct?Ok then why are you even remotely against it?In your world view it would not affect you.

I'm selfish?Every damn human being is selfish by nature but that is besides the point.I didn't play bad when I have teammates that run at first glance of 2-3 guys leaving me to defend myself while he runs off then decides after I have died or kicked their *** to return because he eventually found his balls.

Felheric
04-23-2017, 11:11 PM
It was owerkill nerf tbh. They could have waited little bit.
It wasnt needed cuz most things which made revenge OP is getting adjusted (fixed), pk 0 zone recovery on block = fixed , warlord headbut more reactable now (you could always roll away from wl with revenge tho.. They said flicker zone will be fixed also. Thats - how every single char with decent zone was getting major dmg out in revenge . So I think this instant knocks/ false indicators is what really made revenge strong.
Its not like you could 1v3,4 good players anyways before. Like it was mention previously. There is enough cc in game to shutdown/ setup guy with revenge. You could just not braindeadly throw attacks left and right...
For tournaments it wasnt needed either as they play with gear stats disabled.

So ye lets all stack throw distance and just enviroment ppl because thats where real skill is at :cool:

Antonioj26
04-23-2017, 11:23 PM
None of you anti revenge ever answered my question if your team decided to zerg and mindlessly smash r2 and get destroyed by 1 player how is it your team doesn't suck. Like I said if he happened to kill your other 3 members of you are so good then why not wait till revenge is gone then attack. There is a clear counter to revenge you baddies just failed to see it. See if he killed all 3 then you wait for revenge to go away and you lose then maybe you weren't as good as you thought.

So basically this game should be 1 person in each corner of the map and the enemies also meet in that corner of the map? No grouping up in a team based game? Why even play 4v4 then? Dude all that one guy has to do is turtle the entire time til builds revenge and then pop it. Even if you do escape and wait til he runs out of revenge guess what? He can just turtle again and after 3 blocks he will have it again and not have taken a single dent in his health. It was a ******ed argument and I turned it back on you in an earlier post that you didn't respond to because it crushes your way of thinking. As I said I'm speaking as someone who abused revenge because it was insanely easy to become a one man army so much so that even when I was grouped with sub rep 1 guys I didn't break a sweat winning.

Bob__Gnarly
04-23-2017, 11:31 PM
It's simply impossible to have a good discussion about this subject here.

The anti-revenge crowd basically want revenge to stay as is ie. next to useless. Any semi-decent player can avoid someone who has revenge. You're only real shot at making it count now is by baiting a hit and popping it causing a knockdown, but I think most people know how to avoid that by now. I've read a few of the posts in this thread (not all) and basically their view point is you should not be winning 1v2s at all. Well if that's the case, Ubi should just remove revenge altogether, why is it in the game then? To just prolong your inevitable death? No, it's there to help assist you in overcoming difficult odds ie. winning against multiple opponents. Now that it has been overly neutered, ganking is simply the best and easiest strategy in 4v4s. Fun for premade groups and people that enjoy ganking others, but what about the people that like other tactics besides gank and spam?

Revenge builds pre-nerf were the problem, not revenge in general. Revenge serves a purpose, unfortunately it no longer serves that purpose anymore, so it may as well be removed.

FledgeSRondo
04-23-2017, 11:31 PM
You know, after thinking about it a bit I think the problem fundamentally is that For Honor has two faces to it. On one side it's a fighting game, with combo's, mindgames, feints, mixups, etc. On the other hand it's like an online FPS, with team plays, environment kills, map strategies, etc.

But in a fighting game like Street Fighter you never see 3 human player opponents simultaneously suddenly pile in on a Chun-Li player mid-match to obliterate her, fighting games are designed 1v1 so players can focus on all the depths of the mechanics in an intense and challenging PVP match. Similarly, in an FPS you would never expect that players grouping up to obliterate opponents would be punished for it, moving with your team as a unit to destroy solitary opponents is taken as a natural aspect of a shooter setup.

Revenge I suppose was a mechanic designed to try to reconcile both sides of the same conflicted coin, by allowing players the space to still enjoy the fighting game elements while also getting a multiplayer objective-based team battle. For Honor is completely unique compared to both the expectations we have of fighting games and FPS games in this respect, and balancing out the desires of players who enjoy the depth of the Art of Combat system and those who want the team fighting aspect might be more challenging than meets the eye.

kweassa1917
04-23-2017, 11:34 PM
That's part of being competitive.You have to want to get better on your own merits before you can effectively be part of a team.That rule applies to sports & real life.If you don't want to do that then stick to Single-Player & casual MMOs.

Excuse me, did someone appoint you as the dictator of who gets to play games how?

I've let other ridiculous sentiments fly by but this, just takes the cream of the crop. Players are free to choose in whatever form they want to play, one of such choices being the ability to move in groups, as well as the freedom to choose to move alone.

As others have already adequately pointed out to you, anything that is not a duel in FH features multiple players and by definition a team -- hence as with any basic rules of tactics and military doctrine, concentration of force becomes absolute necessity, which is why moving as a group is always a wiser and tactically sound thing to do, than moving alone.

Of course, one is totally free to choose what he wants -- so long as one takes with grace the consequences of one's actions. And the most probable consequence of roaming alone in a team based game is helpless death. That's fine -- if you accept that as your fate.

Instead, you advocate a system which basically breaks every rule of team-based combat, and not only that, you think you can dictate how people of lesser skill than you should be playing the game according to your arbitrary and misguided rules?

Just who do you think you are, mister?



If that was true then games like R6:Siege would not advertise themselves as such.Battlefield wouldn't feel the need to put PTFO as an advert on their games.
This will be summed up below.

GUN.

Take the hint, before you make me explain the history of the rise of individual firearms changed the fundamentals of combat in warfare in a 12 page essay. :rolleyes:




Yes,I'm the whiney guy that makes the same post over & over.Projecting much?You've only commented on a select few of threads that are not Revenge related.

And that's... um... relevant to this discussion.... how? I don't get it.



You would have to go out your way to hurt or troll another player.You even say it yourself.So buffing it would not change the outcome of being slaughter in 4v1,correct?Ok then why are you even remotely against it?In your world view it would not affect you.

What do you think is gonna happen when a game turns on full friendly fire?

How long have you been in the internet community? Does anyone really need to explain this? Jesus Christ...



I'm selfish?Every damn human being is selfish by nature but that is besides the point.I didn't play bad when I have teammates that run at first glance of 2-3 guys leaving me to defend myself while he runs off then decides after I have died or kicked their *** to return because he eventually found his balls.

People have been telling you bunch this from day-one 1.05 hit PC.

So you had a bad team. The enemies had better. So you lose. What's exactly the problem here?

So the game needs to compensate for your bad luck?

Because you had a cowardly and unorganized team, and perhaps a stroke of bad luck in meeting a lot of those teams, and you've suffered a few defeats from it.... the game needs to... what?? ...make amends for you by making the enemy team sacrificial lambs and letting you still win the day?

You're basically asking for a win for yourself at the expense of the enemy team that's played better than yours....

How is this NOT selfish???????

Antonioj26
04-23-2017, 11:35 PM
It was owerkill nerf tbh. They could have waited little bit.
It wasnt needed cuz most things which made revenge OP is getting adjusted (fixed), pk 0 zone recovery on block = fixed , warlord headbut more reactable now (you could always roll away from wl with revenge tho.. They said flicker zone will be fixed also. Thats - how every single char with decent zone was getting major dmg out in revenge . So I think this instant knocks/ false indicators is what really made revenge strong.
Its not like you could 1v3,4 good players anyways before. Like it was mention previously. There is enough cc in game to shutdown/ setup guy with revenge. You could just not braindeadly throw attacks left and right...
For tournaments it wasnt needed either as they play with gear stats disabled.

So ye lets all stack throw distance and just enviroment ppl because thats where real skill is at :cool:

Here's another problem too, (not specifically with you just in general) that I rarely see being brought up is that the assumption is that it's always 1v3 or 1v2. The truth is revenge was too good in even 4v4 fights where if one guy gets it because 2 people sneezed on him then that fight has been decided. Revenge has its counters but it gets significantly harder to counter when your getting GB, CCed, or attacked by his teammates at the same time. The revenge guy only needs to land 1 maybe two hits to kill you so even reacting to any of those with opens you up to be attacked. If you cgb, you can still be hit, if you try to dodge a CC you can still be hit or untechable GB, if you are attacked and blocked you can be hit with an unblockable.

I honestly haven't played my guys who were revenge stacked but I've playing on my guys who have next to no gear score and I can still win fights against multiple guys. I just avoid those if I can because the smart move is to stay with the team, I still am consistently 1st or 2nd in the charts so I can't complain. It's just not ez mode anymore which is how it should be.

Auztinito
04-23-2017, 11:36 PM
Wowzers.

So 4v4 deathmatches and objective-based modes that place you on a team against another team aren't team-based modes from the start?

Thanks for enlightening me.

... Speaking of reading comprehension. :rolleyes:



Whoah, hey, cool. Another assumption.

Gee wiz Auztinito, you sure are good at pulling those out of thin air.




Even with gear stats and different playstyles, For Honor doesn't need a super strong force multiplier. I'm not sure why you think it does.

Many other team-based games with different damages and abilities don't. Look at any MOBA.





Most people didn't like the uber revenge mode because it punishes you for doing well and it disrupted the flow of combat by rewarding whoever you were beating.

I could be tearing someone several new holes and make the mistake of getting blocked and dodged a few times.

They pop revenge mode.

Now I'm on the defensive, and if I slip up once and eat a guardbreak, I'm dead.

The reverse was true.

I could be dead to rights getting eaten alive, sometimes against multiple opponents.

I pop revenge-- now they're all dead.

I didn't earn that.

There was nothing skillful or clutch about it.

I just got rewarded "because reasons" and now I can tank more damage -and- two-shot people for a little while.

That is my beef with a strong revenge mode.

Nice word twisting at the beginning there.

You just said it.You slipped up.You made a mistake.You were punished for it.
Again,they screwed up by allowing you to get Revenge because they could have disabled or guard broke you constantly or fight you in 1v1.If you had Revenge they could back off or disable you till it ran out or you died.


Yep I will tell you call of duty is a team based game and so is overwatch. Your putting all these other tags on them that don't change whether it's solo based or team based. The game starts with two teams each having their own goal and ends when one of the teams achieve that goal.

Facepalm*


Here's the problem with pro revenge guys, they always assume its people who were killed by it that are against it. In fact it's the opposite at Least with me, I have my warlord and raider that are above or around 100 (haven't played them in awhile so can't remember exactly where exactly their gear score is) revenge stacked and it was laughably easy to win matches.

Head butt into side heavy was absolutely devastating and when guys were trying to GB, parry, or using an attack that disables I just focus on that guy. It's not much different either with a raider who's unblockable will knock off 4 bars of life if combined from a heavy or light. This doesn't need to be in the game. fighting more enemies shouldn't make the game easier. I don't get the reasoning behind thinking that it should.

That's where character balance comes into play.You complain about that making Revenge OP yet you can still abuse that combo after the nerf.

Bob__Gnarly
04-23-2017, 11:43 PM
Revenge I suppose was a mechanic designed to try to reconcile both sides of the same conflicted coin, by allowing players the space to still enjoy the fighting game elements while also getting a multiplayer objective-based team battle. For Honor is completely unique compared to both the expectations we have of fighting games and FPS games in this respect, and balancing out the desires of players who enjoy the depth of the Art of Combat system and those who want the team fighting aspect might be more challenging than meets the eye.

Exactly, but now that is gone. So what are we left with?

Antonioj26
04-23-2017, 11:43 PM
It's simply impossible to have a good discussion about this subject here.

The anti-revenge crowd basically want revenge to stay as is ie. next to useless. Any semi-decent player can avoid someone who has revenge. You're only real shot at making it count now is by baiting a hit and popping it causing a knockdown, but I think most people know how to avoid that by now. I've read a few of the posts in this thread (not all) and basically their view point is you should not be winning 1v2s at all. Well if that's the case, Ubi should just remove revenge altogether, why is it in the game then? To just prolong your inevitable death? No, it's there to help assist you in overcoming difficult odds ie. winning against multiple opponents. Now that it has been overly neutered, ganking is simply the best and easiest strategy in 4v4s. Fun for premade groups and people that enjoy ganking others, but what about the people that like other tactics besides gank and spam?

Revenge builds pre-nerf were the problem, not revenge in general. Revenge serves a purpose, unfortunately it no longer serves that purpose anymore, so it may as well be removed.

I agree a lot with this guy. I think it should help you have better odds, which is I think most anti revenge guys think. The problem wasn't it wouldn't just help you have better odds, It Tilted it in your favor. I think it's a great mechanic but the way it scaled was ridiculous. I've still been able to take on 2s solo with the help of revenge. It still has knock down on unblockable, parries, throws, and when it's initiated. It gives you more defense, a chunk of life temporarily, and more attack damage so to call it completely useless is a bit off. Honestly I think prenerf it was probably something like if I was grouped up on I would win 90% of those encounters and now it's probably like 30% and I'm 100% okay with that.

CandleInTheDark
04-23-2017, 11:52 PM
It's simply impossible to have a good discussion about this subject here.

The anti-revenge crowd basically want revenge to stay as is ie. next to useless. Any semi-decent player can avoid someone who has revenge. You're only real shot at making it count now is by baiting a hit and popping it causing a knockdown, but I think most people know how to avoid that by now. I've read a few of the posts in this thread (not all) and basically their view point is you should not be winning 1v2s at all. Well if that's the case, Ubi should just remove revenge altogether, why is it in the game then? To just prolong your inevitable death? No, it's there to help assist you in overcoming difficult odds ie. winning against multiple opponents. Now that it has been overly neutered, ganking is simply the best and easiest strategy in 4v4s. Fun for premade groups and people that enjoy ganking others, but what about the people that like other tactics besides gank and spam?

Revenge builds pre-nerf were the problem, not revenge in general. Revenge serves a purpose, unfortunately it no longer serves that purpose anymore, so it may as well be removed.

1v2 isn't what people were complaining about, it is the people who, since before the patch details were announced, were shouting that they should be on a par with the whole other team and the argument as a whole has been that people should not be able to 1v3 or 1v4 consistently and this certainly should not be safer than 1v1. which in many cases it was.

And I would argue that it isn't useless in its current form, I am capable of killing two people with it with a minimum build up and minimum duration 108 build, that is far from useless. Most of the people who carry on about revenge mostly fall into two categories that I have seen, the 'Honor Crowd' who want people to line up to fight them 1v1 and how dare they not have a means to handle being apart from their team if they come across four people and those who want to mow through a whole other team like they are npcs in story mode.

The thing is that revenge in its former state rewarded bad team pvp gameplay, common rule of most any pvp game is do not get into a fight you can't walk out from.

Antonioj26
04-23-2017, 11:53 PM
Nice word twisting at the beginning there.

You just said it.You slipped up.You made a mistake.You were punished for it.
Again,they screwed up by allowing you to get Revenge because they could have disabled or guard broke you constantly or fight you in 1v1.If you had Revenge they could back off or disable you till it ran out or you died.



Facepalm*



That's where character balance comes into play.You complain about that making Revenge OP yet you can still abuse that combo after the nerf.

You can face palm all you want dude, that doesn't disprove anything I said. Really games can either be solo play or team based. Genres don't change any of that. So you have the two categories, now is for honor 4v4 solo or team based?

Yes but I can't 1 shot the guy now and revenge doesn't last half a century while only taking 3 blocks to build up. Most characters have one way or another to abuse the revenge mechanic it wasn't limited to warlord. Pk has zone spam, conq has shield bash, warden has shoulder bash, lb has shove, raiders zone could take out 3 attackers at once, valk had shield bash, shug has oni charge, orochi can spam zone, nobushi has her kick. So with the exception of zero and Kensei everyone has a way to abuse revenge. Yes this still exists which is why I don't get why people are complaining about the revenge nerf. It still has a lot of the same qualities that make it strong. The only difference is it doesn't last half the match, build from a gust of wind, you can't one shot, and you can't withstand 4 people slamming you with R2s while you teabag. I get that I'm exaggerating a bit but my point still stands.

Auztinito
04-23-2017, 11:56 PM
Excuse me, did someone appoint you as the dictator of who gets to play games how?

I've let other ridiculous sentiments fly by but this, just takes the cream of the crop. Players are free to choose in whatever form they want to play, one of such choices being the ability to move in groups, as well as the freedom to choose to move alone.

As others have already adequately pointed out to you, anything that is not a duel in FH features multiple players and by definition a team -- hence as with any basic rules of tactics and military doctrine, concentration of force becomes absolute necessity, which is why moving as a group is always a wiser and tactically sound thing to do, than moving alone.

Of course, one is totally free to choose what he wants -- so long as one takes with grace the consequences of one's actions. And the most probable consequence of roaming alone in a team based game is helpless death. That's fine -- if you accept that as your fate.

Instead, you advocate a system which basically breaks every rule of team-based combat, and not only that, you think you can dictate how people of lesser skill than you should be playing the game according to your arbitrary and misguided rules?

Just who do you think you are, mister?




GUN.

Take the hint, before you make me explain the history of the rise of individual firearms changed the fundamentals of combat in warfare in a 12 page essay. :rolleyes:





And that's... um... relevant to this discussion.... how? I don't get it.




What do you think is gonna happen when a game turns on full friendly fire?

How long have you been in the internet community? Does anyone really need to explain this? Jesus Christ...




People have been telling you bunch this from day-one 1.05 hit PC.

So you had a bad team. The enemies had better. So you lose. What's exactly the problem here?

So the game needs to compensate for your bad luck?

Because you had a cowardly and unorganized team, and perhaps a stroke of bad luck in meeting a lot of those teams, and you've suffered a few defeats from it.... the game needs to... what?? ...make amends for you by making the enemy team sacrificial lambs and letting you still win the day?

You're basically asking for a win for yourself at the expense of the enemy team that's played better than yours....

How is this NOT selfish???????

It's just a suggestion.You can play the game but go don't go into a fighting game based on your own skill expecting team-based game or a MMORPG expecting a FPS.

Team-based games more or less have requirements in order to be called or advertised as such like RPGs have certain requirments they have to fulfill.

Do you not remember what you posted?

I've been online gaming for awhile.Also,friendly fire is enabled on tons of FPS,Fighting games,MOBAs,& Single-Player games.at most it'll start off bad for about a week or less then go back to normal especially when you give negative points due to FF and auto-kick paired up with it.

Maybe that's not a Revenge issue per se but overnerfing it didn't help.It's more or less a matchmaking problem.

CitizenPuddi
04-24-2017, 12:05 AM
You just said it.You slipped up.You made a mistake.You were punished for it.
Again,they screwed up by allowing you to get Revenge because they could have disabled or guard broke you constantly or fight you in 1v1.If you had Revenge they could back off or disable you till it ran out or you died.

do i seriously have to sit here and explain to you how ludicrously disproportionate a punishment "you didnt flawlessly 100% eat this person's face off so now you lose because you were doing better than him" is?

or that it is bad design to punish a player for overall performing better?

is that what this is coming to?


Team-based games more or less have requirements in order to be called or advertised as such like RPGs have certain requirments they have to fulfill.

You're right.

The requirement for a team-based game are pretty much as follows:

1) There are teams.
2) The teams are trying to achieve something.

That's....

That's really all there needs to be for a team game to be considered a team game.

Auztinito
04-24-2017, 12:08 AM
do i seriously have to sit here and explain to you how ludicrously disproportionate a punishment "you didnt flawlessly 100% eat this person's face off so now you lose because you were doing better than him" is?

or that it is bad design to punish a player for overall performing better?

is that what this is coming to?

If there is 2-4 of you then yes it is.That should have been easy even if they have Revenge mode.
If you were performing better you would've won.

Antonioj26
04-24-2017, 12:12 AM
It's just a suggestion.You can play the game but go don't go into a fighting game based on your own skill expecting team-based game or a MMORPG expecting a FPS.

Team-based games more or less have requirements in order to be called or advertised as such like RPGs have certain requirments they have to fulfill.

Do you not remember what you posted?

I've been online gaming for awhile.Also,friendly fire is enabled on tons of FPS,Fighting games,MOBAs,& Single-Player games.at most it'll start off bad for about a week or less then go back to normal especially when you give negative points due to FF and auto-kick paired up with it.

Maybe that's not a Revenge issue per se but overnerfing it didn't help.It's more or less a matchmaking problem.

What the hell are these rules that make a game team based or not. Really I can only see two options. Games are either solo play or team based. There's nothing in between. You can point to examples where they can be changed from solo to team based or vice Versa but they are still either team based or solo. If I duel then it's solo, if I do any thing where I have a TEAMMATE, then it becomes teambased. Please help me, I'm thinking of every game I've ever played and I cant think of one example where there is something in between team based or playing solo.

CitizenPuddi
04-24-2017, 12:19 AM
If you were performing better you would've won.

Okay, so I guess it -is- coming to this.

You're absolutely right.

I feel like we're making progress.

See, the problem is that I was performing better.

However, instead of rewarding me, the player that's performing better, the game rewards the player I'm beating down with revenge buildup.

The game tells the losing player, "hey, if you block like... two or three hits (and maybe dodge one or something) from this guy that's stomping you into the mud, i will make you really tanky and make your attacks deal a third of his life bar-- keep up the good work champ."

One little slip-up later, me, the player that was winning, the player that can't reasonably expected to block 100% of all of the everything, is staring at a "defeat" screen all because of a couple of tiny mistakes.

There's very little skill could have done about this.

Often, I could get away.

Other times, I could block and parry everything the revenge-fueled assailant threw at me.

To say I lost to this every time would be disingenuous.

I managed to deal with the situation more often than not.

The main problem is that the situation existed in the first place.

Auztinito
04-24-2017, 12:24 AM
What the hell are these rules that make a game team based or not. Really I can only see two options. Games are either solo play or team based. There's nothing in between. You can point to examples where they can be changed from solo to team based or vice Versa but they are still either team based or solo. If I duel then it's solo, if I do any thing where I have a TEAMMATE, then it becomes teambased. Please help me, I'm thinking of every game I've ever played and I cant think of one example where there is something in between team based or playing solo.

Ask anybody that played or created team-based games.I'm going to assume you haven't played actual team-based game before or you did but didn't care at the time.SOCOM,Old School Ghost Recon,R6:Siege,& I'm being "lenient" on these ones but Destiny:Trials of Osiris mode & Battlefield.Most have no re-spawn,Full Friendly Fire,& most of all require teamwork or you lose.
Call of Duty only can fit the bill on Hardcore Search & Destroy mode.They may have guns but those elements make it Team-Based.

CitizenPuddi
04-24-2017, 12:28 AM
Ask anybody that played or created team-based games.I'm going to assume you haven't played actual team-based game before or you did but didn't care at the time.SOCOM,Old School Ghost Recon,R6:Siege,& I'm being "lenient" on these ones but Destiny:Trials of Osiris mode & Battlefield.Most have no re-spawn,Full Friendly Fire,& most of all require teamwork or you lose.
Call of Duty only can fit the bill on Hardcore Search & Destroy mode.They may have guns but those elements make it Team-Based.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Team_sport

"A team sport includes any sport which involves two or more players working together towards a shared objective. A team sport is an activity in which individuals are organized into opposing teams which compete to win."

You can tack on as many qualifiers or disqualifiers you want, but that doesn't change the definition of a team game.

You can't just change definitions when they suit your argument.

That's not how things work.

please dont turn this into a bunch of semantics mental gymnastics i know for honor is not a "sport" but the principles are exactly the same

Auztinito
04-24-2017, 12:28 AM
Okay, so I guess it -is- coming to this.

You're absolutely right.

I feel like we're making progress.

See, the problem is that I was performing better.

However, instead of rewarding me, the player that's performing better, the game rewards the player I'm beating down with revenge buildup.

The game tells the losing player, "hey, if you block like... two or three hits (and maybe dodge one or something) from this guy that's stomping you into the mud, i will make you really tanky and make your attacks deal a third of his life bar-- keep up the good work champ."

One little slip-up later, me, the player that was winning, the player that can't reasonably expected to block 100% of all of the everything, is staring at a "defeat" screen all because of a couple of tiny mistakes.

There's very little skill could have done about this.

Often, I could get away.

Other times, I could block and parry everything the revenge-fueled assailant threw at me.

To say I lost to this every time would be disingenuous.

I managed to deal with the situation more often than not.

The main problem is that the situation existed in the first place.

Like I said they could keep the nerfs as is but if they buff Defense by a minuscule,Grant Sprint Speed increase if they really want to make Revenge a tool to retreat,or buff Friendly Fire then the Revenge would be in a much better balanced spot.

CandleInTheDark
04-24-2017, 12:28 AM
& most of all require teamwork or you lose.

Like focussing one player who has strayed away from his team because he lacked the situational awareness to realise he was alone and the other guys weren't. One team had good teamwork, that player didn't, only pre nerf he could cream them all.

Antonioj26
04-24-2017, 12:31 AM
Ask anybody that played or created team-based games.I'm going to assume you haven't played actual team-based game before or you did but didn't care at the time.SOCOM,Old School Ghost Recon,R6:Siege,& I'm being "lenient" on these ones but Destiny:Trials of Osiris mode & Battlefield.Most have no re-spawn,Full Friendly Fire,& most of all require teamwork or you lose.
Call of Duty only can fit the bill on Hardcore Search & Destroy mode.They may have guns but those elements make it Team-Based.

Again in every game you either play solo or you play with a team. There's nothing in between. Do you have a team in 4v4 for honor? Now where does that fit? Solo or team?

Auztinito
04-24-2017, 12:36 AM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Team_sport

"A team sport includes any sport which involves two or more players working together towards a shared objective. A team sport is an activity in which individuals are organized into opposing teams which compete to win."

You can tack on as many qualifiers or disqualifiers you want, but that doesn't change the definition of a team game.

You can't just change definitions when they suit your argument.

That's not how things work.

please dont turn this into a bunch of semantics mental gymnastics i know for honor is not a "sport" but the principles are exactly the same
That's not even a correct definition nor a good argument.I'm not changing the definition of Team-Sports or any other word.The only one doing that is you.

CandleInTheDark
04-24-2017, 12:37 AM
Like I said they could keep the nerfs as is but if they buff Defense by a minuscule,Grant Sprint Speed increase if they really want to make Revenge a tool to retreat,or buff Friendly Fire then the Revenge would be in a much better balanced spot.

Here is the thing, it can be used pretty much like that already. I mean I already have a full defence build and I kept it full defence with revenge, but if you skimped on defence for attack or stamina, or even worse in main play, both, you could have full defence in revenge mode, plus the extra health and if you time it right, you knock one or two over which gives you an opening without speed. And I kind of think it would be unfair to give.too big a speed boost given some people sacrificed other stats for their sprint speed though you could make the argument adrenaline would give some boost. And even when grouping on someone you need to be somewhat co-ordinated, I have been thrown off attacks or even killed by my own teammate as is.

CitizenPuddi
04-24-2017, 12:37 AM
That's not even a correct definition nor a good argument.I'm not changing the definition of Team-Sports or any other word.The only one doing that is you.

Provide a proper source for your definition that goes against how team sports have been defined ever since team sports were invented.

Auztinito
04-24-2017, 12:38 AM
Like focussing one player who has strayed away from his team because he lacked the situational awareness to realise he was alone and the other guys weren't. One team had good teamwork, that player didn't, only pre nerf he could cream them all.

Team-work=/= "Ganking"

CandleInTheDark
04-24-2017, 12:41 AM
Team-work=/= "Ganking"

You can call it any negative term you like, when you have isolated one person and the other three are running around like headless chickens,you have shown better teamwork.

Antonioj26
04-24-2017, 12:41 AM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Team_sport

"A team sport includes any sport which involves two or more players working together towards a shared objective. A team sport is an activity in which individuals are organized into opposing teams which compete to win."

You can tack on as many qualifiers or disqualifiers you want, but that doesn't change the definition of a team game.

You can't just change definitions when they suit your argument.

That's not how things work.

please dont turn this into a bunch of semantics mental gymnastics i know for honor is not a "sport" but the principles are exactly the same

There's literally no point in even arguing with this dude. He can't even concede that 4v4 is team based, this isn't even sort of a conversation. He will keep making baseless assumptions and keep saying "you're bad, git Gud." No sort of valid points being brought up by us is countered but instead completely ignored and followed up with "you suck at this game." Probably best to stop wasting time on him.

Auztinito
04-24-2017, 12:43 AM
Provide a proper source for your definition that goes against how team sports have been defined ever since team sports were invented.

I can only point to what Store's & Devs call team-based games as source but there is no written down definition just like there isn't a clear cut definition to things likes class-based games and ect.
http://store.steampowered.com/tag/en/Team-Based/#p=0&tab=PopularNewReleases
https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=team+based+game

Hormly
04-24-2017, 12:43 AM
OMG WTF IM SO ANGRY

I feel revenge needed a nerf, it was never meant to complete discourage ganking, only to give you a shot. It essentially turned you into superman, people would tell you off if you jumped in to help them as they were essentially killing you both.

But now? I feel i can pop revenge and kick some a$$, but im not superman, I still gotta move around and parry guys on my flanks.

its fun, feels perfect :D

Auztinito
04-24-2017, 12:45 AM
You can call it any negative term you like, when you have isolated one person and the other three are running around like headless chickens,you have shown better teamwork.

You isolating someone into an ambush is team-work
Someone going to a capture point & getting jumped is not.

CandleInTheDark
04-24-2017, 12:46 AM
You isolating someone into an ambush is team-work
Someone going to a capture point & getting jumped is not.

Who said anything about capture points? I have seen that in skirmish, one person running into a group of four and the other three nowhere to be seen. Where the hell are the rest of his team and why the hell, when he is alone, does he try to take on four by himself? And why should he then be able to kill all four of them by himself like he could pre-nerf?

CitizenPuddi
04-24-2017, 12:50 AM
I can only point to what Store's & Devs call team-based games as source but there is no written down definition just like there isn't a clear cut definition to things likes class-based games and ect.
http://store.steampowered.com/tag/en/Team-Based/#p=0&tab=PopularNewReleases
https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=team+based+game

So you basically have nothing but a list of team games.

Which means you basically have nothing to offer to explain your ridiculous view that a team game requires anything more than teams working against one another to achieve a goal in order to win.

Do you know what every single team game has in common?

"A team sport includes any sport which involves two or more players working together towards a shared objective. A team sport is an activity in which individuals are organized into opposing teams which compete to win."

^ that

Every single team game has that in common.

Without that, a team game is not a team game.

They may have different features, but at the end of the day, they all fall under the definition I've laid out.

Because that's what makes a team game a team game. The fact that there are teams working against one another to achieve a goal in order to win.

I will re-iterate, none of the team games you've linked would be team games if it weren't for the base definition of what a team game is. That's the reason the term "team game" was invented. To describe just what a team game is-- which is a game in which there are teams working against one another to achieve a goal in order to win.

That's always been the definition of what a team-game is, even waaaay back before god invented fire.

I am seriously struggling to understand how you're not grasping this concept.

Maybe English isn't your first language?

Regardless, I truly believe in you.

Auztinito
04-24-2017, 01:08 AM
There's literally no point in even arguing with this dude. He can't even concede that 4v4 is team based, this isn't even sort of a conversation. He will keep making baseless assumptions and keep saying "you're bad, git Gud." No sort of valid points being brought up by us is countered but instead completely ignored and followed up with "you suck at this game." Probably best to stop wasting time on him.

Are you talking about me?
If so,please make more baseless assumptions.You;re projecting hard in the underlined sentence.I've countered all your points & replied to all but 2 comments because I was hoping you see reason on the first post I didn't reply to & the second one was you not understanding or refusing to understand.



Who said anything about capture points? I have seen that in skirmish, one person running into a group of four and the other three nowhere to be seen. Where the hell are the rest of his team and why the hell, when he is alone, does he try to take on four by himself? And why should he then be able to kill all four of them by himself like he could pre-nerf?

Skirmish?Ew.The worst game mode on this game.
You should not be able play careless even if you do have numbers on your opponent.You should have to still play tactically to win even if it's one guy.



So you basically have nothing but a list of team games.

Which means you basically have nothing to offer to explain your ridiculous view that a team game requires anything more than teams working against one another to achieve a goal in order to win.

Do you know what every single team game has in common?

"A team sport includes any sport which involves two or more players working together towards a shared objective. A team sport is an activity in which individuals are organized into opposing teams which compete to win."

^ that

Every single team game has that in common.

Without that, a team game is not a team game.

They may have different features, but at the end of the day, they all fall under the definition I've laid out.

Because that's what makes a team game a team game. The fact that there are teams working against one another to achieve a goal in order to win.

I will re-iterate, none of the team games you've linked would be team games if it weren't for the base definition of what a team game is. That's the reason the term "team game" was invented. To describe just what a team game is-- which is a game in which there are teams working against one another to achieve a goal in order to win.

That's always been the definition of what a team-game is, even waaaay back before god invented fire.

I am seriously struggling to understand how you're not grasping this concept.

I truly believe in you though.

If you don't notice the common elements and mechanics in those games then you are hopelessly doomed to think a anything with team is team based.It's the equilvalent of calling GTA:O an MMO and R6:Siege a Co-Op game.Also,what leg do you have to stand on?Hmm.Reciting a definition to Team Sports and equating it to Team-Based Video Game.

CitizenPuddi
04-24-2017, 01:14 AM
If you don't notice the common elements and mechanics in those games then you are hopelessly doomed to think a anything with team is team based.It's the equilvalent of calling GTA:O an MMO and R6:Siege a Co-Op game.Also,what leg do you have to stand on?Hmm.Reciting a definition to Team Sports and equating it to Team-Based Video Game.

please name one single game that features teams working against eachother to achieve a goal in order to win that is not considered a team game

just one

that's all you need

Antonioj26
04-24-2017, 01:15 AM
You obviously haven't played enough games.It's possible in just about every team based & skill-based game to "clutch".Socom,R6:Siege,Battlefield,Paragon,DCUO,Destiny,& every Call of Duty.

As for the other thing I underlined.Since when?Is there a fear of hitting teammates?No unless you have barely any health.Is there limits on heroes?Only 1-2 game modes.Is there limited use of feats?No,they all operate on a cooldown.Team-based game.Don't make me laugh.This won't be a REAL team-based game mechanics until those are put in place.

Is this the argument your referring to that you refuted? Changing the definition of a meaning is you refuting it? Ok got ya, and what do you know I see a few baseless assumptions in the first sentence! I'll look through your other posts for you "countering" my argument.

Antonioj26
04-24-2017, 01:20 AM
A team-based sport from the get-go.Also,was he hiding behind his team due to a lack of skill at the game?I doubt it but it's possible.Reading comprehension,much?



Those games don't need Revenge mechanics because you are on a level playing field with guns that more or less do the same damage & doesn't have gear stats besides DCUO(it's an MMO).Guess which For Honor has.Gear Stats & does different weapon damage even if you're the same character as someone else.Duel and Brawl are where everything is mostly normalized.Those would be more fitting to your argument.



It's a logical one.Most people that hate Revenge hate it because they were killed by someone using it.

So if everyone has equal gear stats then it's okay to two shot someone? Go ahead keep moving the goal post, dude.

Antonioj26
04-24-2017, 01:23 AM
Are you talking about me?
If so,please make more baseless assumptions.You;re projecting hard in the underlined sentence.I've countered all your points & replied to all but 2 comments because I was hoping you see reason on the first post I didn't reply to & the second one was you not understanding or refusing to understand.




Skirmish?Ew.The worst game mode on this game.
You should not be able play careless even if you do have numbers on your opponent.You should have to still play tactically to win even if it's one guy.




If you don't notice the common elements and mechanics in those games then you are hopelessly doomed to think a anything with team is team based.It's the equilvalent of calling GTA:O an MMO and R6:Siege a Co-Op game.Also,what leg do you have to stand on?Hmm.Reciting a definition to Team Sports and equating it to Team-Based Video Game.

Here's were I think we are at an impasse, you think I'm calling for honor a team based game when I'm calling 4v4s a team based mode. Would it have been better if I said it's a game mode that is based on two teams fighting with a goal in mind?

CitizenPuddi
04-24-2017, 01:26 AM
Here's were I think we are at an impasse, you think I'm calling for honor a team based game when I'm calling 4v4s a team based mode. Would it have been better if I said it's a game mode that is based on two teams fighting with a goal in mind?

my head will explode if this is where the point of contention is

Auztinito
04-24-2017, 01:27 AM
Here's were I think we are at an impasse, you think I'm calling for honor a team based game when I'm calling 4v4s a team based mode. Would it have been better if I said it's a game mode that is based on two teams fighting with a goal in mind?

Team-Based Mode would be more accurate but needs more teamwork mechanics like Full FF to become a true team-based game mode..


So if everyone has equal gear stats then it's okay to two shot someone? Go ahead keep moving the goal post, dude.

Yes.It happen all the time on R6:Siege.Ever heard of a sniper rifle?If he can do it,you can as well.


please name one single game that features teams working against eachother to achieve a goal in order to win that is not considered a team game

just one

that's all you need
Just one?
Ok.Call of Duty.


Is this the argument your referring to that you refuted? Changing the definition of a meaning is you refuting it? Ok got ya, and what do you know I see a few baseless assumptions in the first sentence! I'll look through your other posts for you "countering" my argument.
It's baseless assumption unless I am right.I never changed the definition.Team-based games started becoming a thing when Tactical Shooters were being made.

Antonioj26
04-24-2017, 01:35 AM
Team-Based Mode would be more accurate.



Yes.It happen all the time on R6:Siege.Ever heard of a sniper rifle?If he can do it,you can as well.


Just one?
Ok.Call of Duty.

Already everyone henceforth 4v4 will called a team based mode. If you do not specify then you obviously haven't played enough team based games so shut the hell up and don't even think about putting in any sort of input. If you try then just uninstall or smash your console because you don't have any idea what you are talking about.

Yeah but sniper rifles are in team based games so they don't belong in team based modes.

Auztinito
04-24-2017, 01:38 AM
Already everyone henceforth 4v4 will called a team based mode. If you do not specify then you obviously haven't played enough team based games so shut the hell up and don't even think about putting in any sort of input. If you try then just uninstall or smash your console because you don't have any idea what you are talking about.

Yeah but sniper rifles are in team based games so they don't belong in team based modes.

Team-based games & team-based mode abide by the same ruleset. One would just imply the full game is not centered around it.Now you're just twisting my words.

Antonioj26
04-24-2017, 01:40 AM
Team-Based Mode would be more accurate but needs more teamwork mechanics like Full FF to become a true team-based game mode..



Yes.It happen all the time on R6:Siege.Ever heard of a sniper rifle?If he can do it,you can as well.


Just one?
Ok.Call of Duty.


It's baseless assumption unless I am right.I never changed the definition.Team-based games started becoming a thing when Tactical Shooters were being made.

A baseless assumption doesn't cease to be a baseless assumption if it was correct. If I assumed you were a fat neck beard virgin and it turned out to be true it would still be baseless. There is no evidence to that so I assumed that on absolutely nothing, making it a baseless assumption. This argument has turned into another ridiculous argument about semantics. Nothing productive has or will come of this. What it comes down to is Ubisoft and the community minus a few saw it as OP and they changed it.

CitizenPuddi
04-24-2017, 01:40 AM
i cant do this anymore

im bowing out

for my mental health

Antonioj26
04-24-2017, 01:45 AM
Team-based games & team-based mode abide by the same ruleset. One would just imply the full game is not centered around it.Now you're just twisting my words.

Then why even make the distinction? Just semantics. I'm done, this is getting no where. We aren't even arguing about revenge at this point.

Bob__Gnarly
04-24-2017, 02:27 AM
1v2 isn't what people were complaining about, it is the people who, since before the patch details were announced, were shouting that they should be on a par with the whole other team and the argument as a whole has been that people should not be able to 1v3 or 1v4 consistently and this certainly should not be safer than 1v1. which in many cases it was.

And I would argue that it isn't useless in its current form, I am capable of killing two people with it with a minimum build up and minimum duration 108 build, that is far from useless. Most of the people who carry on about revenge mostly fall into two categories that I have seen, the 'Honor Crowd' who want people to line up to fight them 1v1 and how dare they not have a means to handle being apart from their team if they come across four people and those who want to mow through a whole other team like they are npcs in story mode.

The thing is that revenge in its former state rewarded bad team pvp gameplay, common rule of most any pvp game is do not get into a fight you can't walk out from.

I absolutely agree that pre-nerf revenge builds were too strong, it was easier to waltz into a group and feel safe because revenge popped far too often constantly refreshing your shield making it hard to make a dent on HP at all. It needed toning down, not to be gutted. It only needed a hard nerf on how quickly it built up and slight nerfs to attack and defense. Instead it was heavily nerfed in every aspect, which was a step too far imo.

I'm also capable of killing two bad players in its current form, but anyone with experience with the game is a different story. Once you've played for a bit, you learn how to deal with revenge and this is who we should be balancing the game around no? So I'd still argue that revenge in it's current state is next to useless against any semi-decent players.

I loved the idea of revenge when I first heard about it, it discouraged ganking like we're seeing today. Now that its been severely weakened, players have no quarrels jumping in and spamming like no tomorrow. This is the type of bad game play that old revenge punished well. I don't want the old revenge back though, I just want revenge to function like the devs intended it too, which is my opinion to promote better and more fun game play.

CoyoteXStarrk
04-24-2017, 02:44 AM
I cannot believe this thread is still going.


The OP is literally complaining about teamwork in an objective based team game mode.

CitizenPuddi
04-24-2017, 02:46 AM
I cannot believe this thread is still going.


The OP is literally complaining about teamwork in an objective based team game mode.

um

excuse me

its not a team game mode bro

auztinito said so

CoyoteXStarrk
04-24-2017, 02:47 AM
um

excuse me

its not a team game mode bro

auztinito said so

I am not gonna go through 16 pages to find a post.


Explain to me how Dominion is not a team based game mode.

The_B0G_
04-24-2017, 02:52 AM
I am not gonna go through 16 pages to find a post.


Explain to me how Dominion is not a team based game mode.

Because there are sniper rifles in Call of Duty, something like that anyway.

CitizenPuddi
04-24-2017, 02:56 AM
I am not gonna go through 16 pages to find a post.


Explain to me how Dominion is not a team based game mode.

Buckle up, lol.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Team_sport

"A team sport includes any sport which involves two or more players working together towards a shared objective. A team sport is an activity in which individuals are organized into opposing teams which compete to win."

You can tack on as many qualifiers or disqualifiers you want, but that doesn't change the definition of a team game.

You can't just change definitions when they suit your argument.

That's not how things work.

please dont turn this into a bunch of semantics mental gymnastics i know for honor is not a "sport" but the principles are exactly the same

It all starts on page 13 and goes on for far too long.

This is his response.


That's not even a correct definition nor a good argument.I'm not changing the definition of Team-Sports or any other word.The only one doing that is you.

kweassa1917
04-24-2017, 03:00 AM
Then why even make the distinction? Just semantics. I'm done, this is getting no where. We aren't even arguing about revenge at this point.

Obviously not -- since the guy decided to weasel-out from the "gank = result of poor teamwork" premise by attempting to deny Elim or Dom is a team game.

You're absolutely right. It is ridiculous. We have a game that plays out with 4 people on each side, an "orange team" and a "blue team", and the guy's arguing it's not a team game.

If someone's that desperate, I really don't know what else to do. :rolleyes:

At this point' it's basically what we call "cognitive dysfunction" -- he's so desperate to argue his point, that anything that doesn't fit his version of reality, or fit his dictated rules of how people should play according to his needs, he will simply deny it even if it means arguing a game consisting players, teams and objectives does not qualify as a 'team game...'

Lord have mercy on us all. What kind of a landmine did we trip...

Dark.Knights
04-24-2017, 03:05 AM
Before patch you can win by solo vs multi with revenge, after patch you can't. So the conclusion is you are not skillful, you win because of the op revenge mechanic.

ImTiredOfU
04-24-2017, 03:06 AM
Like I have said this game had a uniqueness that team work had to go to the end. If your team defeated the other 3 you still had to keep your guard up if they were skilled. Now as soon as 1 is left it's just a firing squad. Before nerf it was a challenge to the end and now say what you want it's boring for both sides. Unless you are running the clock down no need to try. Like I have said before it was unique it was like fighting threw a group to get to a human boss now it's like the boss is chained down and asleep. What fun is it to just slaughter someone that has no chance. No one skilled thought revenge was perfect before but it wasn't invincible and the nerf was way out of line. Gains and attack was the problem with revenge that was it. The rest is hero issues.

CitizenPuddi
04-24-2017, 03:08 AM
Like I have said this game had a uniqueness that team work had to go to the end. If your team defeated the other 3 you still had to keep your guard up if they were skilled. Now as soon as 1 is left it's just a firing squad. Before nerf it was a challenge to the end and now say what you want it's boring for both sides. Unless you are running the clock down no need to try. Like I have said before it was unique it was like fighting threw a group to get to a human boss now it's like the boss is chained down and asleep. What fun is it to just slaughter someone that has no chance. No one skilled thought revenge was perfect before but it wasn't invincible and the nerf was way out of line. Gains and attack was the problem with revenge that was it. The rest is hero issues.

ok

ImTiredOfU
04-24-2017, 03:14 AM
Someone learned copy n paste how cute😂

CitizenPuddi
04-24-2017, 03:17 AM
Someone learned copy n paste how cute��

learning is fun

maybe you could look into learning how to have a discussion involving objective points of debate

CoyoteXStarrk
04-24-2017, 03:17 AM
That might be the dumbest thing I have ever read.


You are in a TEAM OF 4.


There are objectives.



There is a point system.



The win goes to the TEAM who gets the most points.



ITS A TEAM BASED GAME MODE.

Antonioj26
04-24-2017, 03:22 AM
Like I have said this game had a uniqueness that team work had to go to the end. If your team defeated the other 3 you still had to keep your guard up if they were skilled. Now as soon as 1 is left it's just a firing squad. Before nerf it was a challenge to the end and now say what you want it's boring for both sides. Unless you are running the clock down no need to try. Like I have said before it was unique it was like fighting threw a group to get to a human boss now it's like the boss is chained down and asleep. What fun is it to just slaughter someone that has no chance. No one skilled thought revenge was perfect before but it wasn't invincible and the nerf was way out of line. Gains and attack was the problem with revenge that was it. The rest is hero issues.

It's awesome that you've put a point forward and shared what you enjoyed about it. This is how it should have been instead of flinging insults and arguing ridiculous word play. As I said it doesn't make sense to punish a team of 3 for succeding in beating 3 of their opponents with 1 casualty, or you can even argue that it doesn't make sense to reward the team who lost everyone but one guy. The group played it right and won, the results speaks to that. I'm not saying make it impossible for the solo guy to win because it's not now it's just much more difficult. Without any sort of exaggeration I'm sure I've won more 1v3s as the solo guy prenerf than I lost, and I can't think of many times that I lost a 1v2. That's not at all me flexing, it's me pointing out a flaw. If you still don't see where I'm coming from then no hard feelings and it sounds like it's pretty much just a respectfully agree disagree sort of thing.

ImTiredOfU
04-24-2017, 03:28 AM
That might be the dumbest thing I have ever read.


You are in a TEAM OF 4.


There are objectives.



There is a point system.



The win goes to the TEAM who gets the most points.



ITS A TEAM BASED GAME MODE.

Ok nothing was stopping your team from winning before nerf except lack of teamwork. Just because every other game let's you use the last guy as a target what was so bad about giving them a chance again baddies. What was so wrong with a game being different for once. I don't get it. Is the goal to have every game the same. Why kill it's uniqueness just because other games don't have this. No **** 4v4 is team based no one isn't telling you to not use the whole team just be smart and use teamwork. Don't all smash r2 and expect to win cuz that = boring.

CoyoteXStarrk
04-24-2017, 03:31 AM
Ok nothing was stopping your team from winning before nerf except lack of teamwork. Just because every other game let's you use the last guy as a target what was so bad about giving them a chance again baddies. What was so wrong with a game being different for once. I don't get it. Is the goal to have every game the same. Why kill it's uniqueness just because other games don't have this. No **** 4v4 is team based no one isn't telling you to not use the whole team just be smart and use teamwork. Don't all smash r2 and expect to win cuz that = boring.

Revenge still gives you that chance.


It just doesn't HAND you the win like it did before. You actually have to have some skill now to win if you get ganked. If you have a problem with having to be good in order to compete then I suggest you find a new game.

Mia.Nora
04-24-2017, 03:32 AM
I also hated old revenge (and still think revenge meter should not fill at all in 1v1). I agree that it definitely needed a nerf, since it was better to fight against multiple people instead of 1v1 fighting with old revenge.

However, it does not mean he is wrong about new meta of Shugoki/LB gangsquads making game unfun. Maps are already stupidly full of environmental kills to the point it is pointless to try kill your opponent regular way. Just try to get GB or parry for GB for environmental kill. Adding disabling gangsquads on top makes it silly.

For example why the hell can we spam on someone at shugoki's grasp? Let's say it is ok to do so, how come shugoki is not taking same damage from it? Same goes for Pancake flip LBs.

No matter how it can be justified, it is unfun. That part stands true. People play games for fun. For Honor already void of any competitive play anyway since it clusters good and bad players as well as solo queuer and 4s premades together. Only thing that keeps going for it is the fun part which is disappearing with gangsquads.

CitizenPuddi
04-24-2017, 03:34 AM
I also hated old revenge (and still think revenge meter should not fill at all in 1v1). I agree that it definitely needed a nerf, since it was better to fight against multiple people instead of 1v1 fighting with old revenge.

However, it does not mean he is wrong about new meta of Shugoki/LB gangsquads making game unfun. Maps are already stupidly full of environmental kills to the point it is pointless to try kill your opponent regular way. Just try to get GB or parry for GB for environmental kill. Adding disabling gangsquads on top makes it silly.

For example why the hell can we spam on someone at shugoki's grasp? Let's say it is ok to do so, how come shugoki is not taking same damage from it? Same goes for Pancake flip LBs.

No matter how it can be justified, it is unfun. That part stands true. People play games for fun. For Honor already void of any competitive play anyway since it clusters good and bad players as well as solo queuer and 4s premades together. Only thing that keeps going for it is the fun part which is disappearing with gangsquads.

Isn't that a Shugoki/Lawbringer/Toolsforsituationalawareness problem tho?

ImTiredOfU
04-24-2017, 03:34 AM
It's awesome that you've put a point forward and shared what you enjoyed about it. This is how it should have been instead of flinging insults and arguing ridiculous word play. As I said it doesn't make sense to punish a team of 3 for succeding in beating 3 of their opponents with 1 casualty, or you can even argue that it doesn't make sense to reward the team who lost everyone but one guy. The group played it right and won, the results speaks to that. I'm not saying make it impossible for the solo guy to win because it's not now it's just much more difficult. Without any sort of exaggeration I'm sure I've won more 1v3s as the solo guy prenerf than I lost, and I can't think of many times that I lost a 1v2. That's not at all me flexing, it's me pointing out a flaw. If you still don't see where I'm coming from then no hard feelings and it sounds like it's pretty much just a respectfully agree disagree sort of thing.
Again no skilled person said never was fine but it was gains and attack. Characters already can hit for over half life without revenge so attack isn't needed but the defense was. I'll even agree on knock down window but like I said this game used to make you use teamwork to the end and now it's a guarantee firing squad just like every other game out. If you can't see what was done here in terms of unique fighting games then I see why this games players are leaving.

CoyoteXStarrk
04-24-2017, 03:41 AM
Ridicolous!

It does and there are numerous videos to prove that it does.


You are not SUPPOSED to win 2v1 or higher EVERY SINGLE TIME


Thats not how it works.

ImTiredOfU
04-24-2017, 03:44 AM
Revenge still gives you that chance.


It just doesn't HAND you the win like it did before. You actually have to have some skill now to win if you get ganked. If you have a problem with having to be good in order to compete then I suggest you find a new game.
Not a single player will tell you they have a chance to 4v1 now and if the balance heroes this will only get worse now. This game was nice cuz it could punish bad teamwork 2 ways if you had good team work the round would be in your favor but if you dropped your teamwork and cordination then you died. See it's the coordination that mattered before that's gone now making it easier. I don't have to wait to throw a heavy or even if it hits now as long as I'm in a group.

ImTiredOfU
04-24-2017, 03:46 AM
It does and there are numerous videos to prove that it does.


You are not SUPPOSED to win 2v1 or higher EVERY SINGLE TIME


Thats not how it works.

If you team didn't all spam r2 you didn't before nerf.

Antonioj26
04-24-2017, 03:48 AM
Again no skilled person said never was fine but it was gains and attack. Characters already can hit for over half life without revenge so attack isn't needed but the defense was. I'll even agree on knock down window but like I said this game used to make you use teamwork to the end and now it's a guarantee firing squad just like every other game out. If you can't see what was done here in terms of unique fighting games then I see why this games players are leaving.

I can maybe sort of agree with them not nerfing the defense so much but I've seen matches go on for way too long because someone went in an all guard stance or some idiot on your team is constantly attacking while you are trying to guard break/CC. Now he's killed your idiot teammate and has the upper hand on you. I legitimately don't see the sense in that. Nerfing revenge does promote team work as evidence by that creation of this thread. His complaint is people are grouping up and ganking solo players. If you don't want to be ganked then you have to be with your team. Also something no one is addressing (I guess you sort of did when you mentioned the gains in a way) is its effectiveness in even full 4v4 team fights. It only takes a couple guys to target one guy for a few swings, and if that guy is smart enough to turtle he will get revenge and completely turn the tide on the fight and it will result in a complete wipe for the enemy team.

Antonioj26
04-24-2017, 03:54 AM
Not a single player will tell you they have a chance to 4v1 now and if the balance heroes this will only get worse now. This game was nice cuz it could punish bad teamwork 2 ways if you had good team work the round would be in your favor but if you dropped your teamwork and cordination then you died. See it's the coordination that mattered before that's gone now making it easier. I don't have to wait to throw a heavy or even if it hits now as long as I'm in a group.

So please correct me if I'm misreading this but are you saying heroes shouldn't be balanced? There should be clearly better characters and worse? If a group is sticking together then they are coordinated though, if a player is by themself it's because their team wasn't coordinated. If it's 4v1 their victory should be all but secured, they put in more teamwork and coordination then their opponents. If that wasn't true than all but one guy wouldn't be dead.

ImTiredOfU
04-24-2017, 04:00 AM
I can maybe sort of agree with them not nerfing the defense so much but I've seen matches go on for way too long because someone went in an all guard stance or some idiot on your team is constantly attacking while you are trying to guard break/CC. Now he's killed your idiot teammate and has the upper hand on you. I legitimately don't see the sense in that. Nerfing revenge does promote team work as evidence by that creation of this thread. His complaint is people are grouping up and ganking solo players. If you don't want to be ganked then you have to be with your team. Also something no one is addressing (I guess you sort of did when you mentioned the gains in a way) is its effectiveness in even full 4v4 team fights. It only takes a couple guys to target one guy for a few swings, and if that guy is smart enough to turtle he will get revenge and completely turn the tide on the fight and it will result in a complete wipe for the enemy team.

Again it punished bad team work no matter how you look at it. Op heroes are the issue though not revenge. Even with pre nerf if your team worked together you could easily kill revenge builds but you litterally Couldnt all be spamming r2. Oh he popped revenge knock while team down and killed them. Why the he'll was the whole team stack on him mashing r2 on him. Had they gb/ disabled or just timed attacks then 3,4 vs 1 wins every time pre nerf now doesn't matter what you do in a group attack wise smash r2. Over and over and over in 3,4 vs 1 and you win.

AKDagriZ
04-24-2017, 04:10 AM
It's simply impossible to have a good discussion about this subject here.

The anti-revenge crowd basically want revenge to stay as is ie. next to useless. Any semi-decent player can avoid someone who has revenge. You're only real shot at making it count now is by baiting a hit and popping it causing a knockdown, but I think most people know how to avoid that by now. I've read a few of the posts in this thread (not all) and basically their view point is you should not be winning 1v2s at all. Well if that's the case, Ubi should just remove revenge altogether, why is it in the game then? To just prolong your inevitable death? No, it's there to help assist you in overcoming difficult odds ie. winning against multiple opponents. Now that it has been overly neutered, ganking is simply the best and easiest strategy in 4v4s. Fun for premade groups and people that enjoy ganking others, but what about the people that like other tactics besides gank and spam?

Revenge builds pre-nerf were the problem, not revenge in general. Revenge serves a purpose, unfortunately it no longer serves that purpose anymore, so it may as well be removed.

very good comment

Now that it has been overly neutered, ganking is simply the best and easiest strategy in 4v4s. Fun for premade groups and people that enjoy ganking others, but what about the people that like other tactics besides gank and spam

CoyoteXStarrk
04-24-2017, 04:11 AM
Not a single player will tell you they have a chance to 4v1 now and if the balance heroes this will only get worse now. This game was nice cuz it could punish bad teamwork 2 ways if you had good team work the round would be in your favor but if you dropped your teamwork and cordination then you died. See it's the coordination that mattered before that's gone now making it easier. I don't have to wait to throw a heavy or even if it hits now as long as I'm in a group.

You are not SUPPOSED to have a chance in a 4v1


Wtf are you smoking that has you thinking that you should be able to win a 4v1? If you come up against a 4v1 you have no one to blame but yourself because you have made some poor choices and those 4 guys are about to make you pay for them.

ImTiredOfU
04-24-2017, 04:13 AM
People are lumping the turtle meta problems with revenge problems. That's why the op classes still op after nerf had they addressed those issue first revenge wouldn't have been an issue. Hero's exploited revenge Fix this exploits. Things like warlords headbutt made revenge seem broken but spammable knock downs are broken not revenge. Turtle meta blocking everything still can after nerf still can live long enough to build unlimited revenge. Still 1v4 the nerf almost did nothing to this meta and yet this is what was a major issue not revenge. They are still op as **** just now by a lot. See hero problems need fixed revenge just needed tweaked not slammed on its face.

AKDagriZ
04-24-2017, 04:14 AM
You are not SUPPOSED to have a chance in a 4v1


Wtf are you smoking that has you thinking that you should be able to win a 4v1? If you come up against a 4v1 you have no one to blame but yourself because you have made some poor choices and those 4 guys are about to make you pay for them.

so if you dont have a chance 4V1 it mean we should always go 4player v 4player all the time ????

There is a mod for that it's called skirmish

Antonioj26
04-24-2017, 04:14 AM
Again it punished bad team work no matter how you look at it. Op heroes are the issue though not revenge. Even with pre nerf if your team worked together you could easily kill revenge builds but you litterally Could all be spamming r2. Oh he popped revenge knock while team down and killed them. Why the he'll was the whole team stack on him mashing r2 on him. Had they gb/ disabled or just timed attacks then 3,4 vs 1 wins every time pre nerf now doesn't matter what you do in a group attack wise smash r2. Over and over and over in 3,4 vs 1 and you win.

You unfortunately can't control your teammates so because one idiot decides to spam a guy while he blocks and builds revenge you should be open to being one shot? I don't get how you talk about teamwork while promoting a mechanic that made you stronger by going in solo to a group.

K, what about 2v1, 2v2, 2v3...... etc. in a fight that's only slight skewed in one groups favor now becomes completely one sided in favor of the group with the guy with revenge. If you are busy retreating from a guy with revenge then you are open to being hit by another guy or even GB/CC. Now all that has to happen is a heavy from the guy with revenge and the teamwork you mentioned has done nothing for you.

CoyoteXStarrk
04-24-2017, 04:15 AM
People are lumping the turtle meta problems with revenge problems. That's why the op classes still op after nerf had they addressed those issue first revenge wouldn't have been an issue. Hero's exploited revenge Fix this exploits. Things like warlords headbutt made revenge seem broken but spammable knock downs are broken not revenge. Turtle meta blocking everything still can after nerf still can live long enough to build unlimited revenge. Still 1v4 the nerf almost did nothing to this meta and yet this is what was a major issue not revenge. They are still op as **** just now by a lot. See hero problems need fixed revenge just needed tweaked not slammed on its face.

No Revenge was broken.


If I slap you across the face a few times you should not be able to pop Super Saiyan 4 and then kill me in 2 hits.


That is not okay. That is not balanced.

Antonioj26
04-24-2017, 04:17 AM
very good comment

Now that it has been overly neutered, ganking is simply the best and easiest strategy in 4v4s. Fun for premade groups and people that enjoy ganking others, but what about the people that like other tactics besides gank and spam

What tactics exactly? The one where the 108 revenge build runs into a group by himself and kills 2 if not 3 of them?

AKDagriZ
04-24-2017, 04:18 AM
What tactics exactly? The one where the 108 revenge build runs into a group by himself and kills 2 if not 3 of them?

read BOb_Gnarly whole statement it will answer your question

Antonioj26
04-24-2017, 04:19 AM
so if you dont have a chance 4V1 it mean we should always go 4player v 4player all the time ????

There is a mod for that it's called skirmish

What mode are you playing where it's 4v1 and why would you want to play that?

Antonioj26
04-24-2017, 04:20 AM
read BOb_Gnarly whole statement it will answer your question
Your going to have to tell me what page this is a long thread.

AKDagriZ
04-24-2017, 04:24 AM
What mode are you playing where it's 4v1 and why would you want to play that?

Dominion and skirmish are gank based game mod . meanwhile you can have very nice game in dominion if people play objectives . Nothing worst than a game where people group up and pick up one by one 3-4V1.
When you use this tactic you are missing the whole game mechanics as you only hit one guy while he is being shield bash or GB .this is not what great about this game.

In elimination there is no goal ! people go there to enjoy good fighting duel and maybe 2V1. there is no objective so what the point of going 3-4V1 there ? You feel great when you win by ganking 4v1 ?

CoyoteXStarrk
04-24-2017, 04:29 AM
so if you dont have a chance 4V1 it mean we should always go 4player v 4player all the time ????

There is a mod for that it's called skirmish

Now you are just being intentionally dense.


Dominion is NOT 4v1 99% of teh time. I run into a 4v1 maybe a few times every 2 or 3 matches.


Most of the times its 2v1 and those are easily countered with the current Revenge model.

Antonioj26
04-24-2017, 04:30 AM
Dominion and skirmish are gank based game mod . meanwhile you can have very nice game in dominion if people play objectives . Nothing worst than a game where people group up and pick up one by one 3-4V1.
When you use this tactic you are missing the whole game mechanics as you only hit one guy while he is being shield bash or GB .this is not what great about this game.

In elimination there is no goal ! people go there to enjoy good fighting duel and maybe 2V1. there is no objective so what the point of going 3-4V1 there ? You feel great when you win by ganking 4v1 ?

well if you are talking about elimination specifically then everyone starts off in a 1v1. If you somehow get into a 4v1 then your team has failed miserably. The team of 4 should not be punished for winning 3 1v1 fights and you should not be rewarded for your team being bad with a god mode. I've said this from the start I'm saying this as a guy who abused the revenge mechanic, not as some guy being stomped by it. It's absolutely brain dead the way it was and now it takes a bit of skill to pull off a 1v4

ImTiredOfU
04-24-2017, 04:34 AM
You are not SUPPOSED to have a chance in a 4v1


Wtf are you smoking that has you thinking that you should be able to win a 4v1? If you come up against a 4v1 you have no one to blame but yourself because you have made some poor choices and those 4 guys are about to make you pay for them.

Just like every fighting game out on the market. Hell God of war was the same thing as this is now and no where near the bugs. Again I ask you why does this have to be the same. I mean seriously dude this game had a chance to be different and was untill the nerf. Why want the same old same old. If you value team play and skill why want this. If you honestly believe you are a decent player and team you should have never lost a 1v4 before the nerf if the solo dude didn't use exploits. PERIOD. So I'm not seeing how these invincible gods were running around when they had many clear counters. Again unless using exploits that back to things other than revenge. One last time if it made the game intense for you team and made it harder to win but had a counter then why do you want this game just like all the other's. Just because other games don't let you win 1v4 doesn't mean it had to be a bad thing to be able too.we lost that All because heros are broken and revenge was blamed. I didn't look at is as a bad thing cuz honestly it made the game more of a challenge and if you looked at it like that it was more fun for both sides. But your right make him pay and rage quit cause he decided to do a random. I mean who wants a game that's fun for winners and losers when you can make that last person pay without a prayer. Your right that couldn't possible be more fun and now know why they lost so many players.

Antonioj26
04-24-2017, 04:40 AM
Just like every fighting game out on the market. Hell God of war was the same thing as this is now and no where near the bugs. Again I ask you why does this have to be the same. I mean seriously dude this game had a chance to be different and was untill the nerf. Why want the same old same old. If you value team play and skill why want this. If you honestly believe you are a decent player and team you should have never lost a 1v4 before the nerf if the solo dude didn't use exploits. PERIOD. So I'm not seeing how these invincible gods were running around when they had many clear counters. Again unless using exploits that back to things other than revenge. One last time if it made the game intense for you team and made it harder to win but had a counter then why do you want this game just like all the other's. Just because other games don't let you win 1v4 doesn't mean it had to be a bad thing to be able too.we lost that All because heros are broken and revenge was blamed. I didn't look at is as a bad thing cuz honestly it made the game more of a challenge and if you looked at it like that it was more fun for both sides. But your right make him pay and rage quit cause he decided to do a random. I mean who wants a game that's fun for winners and losers when you can make that last person pay without a prayer. Your right that couldn't possible be more fun and now know why they lost so many players.

The game is already tons different than most. Having unbalanced mechanics isn't necassary to set itself apart from others.
Again the problem here is it's not limited to 1v4. If it was only then it was activated then I would agree with you but it wasn't and still isn't. It can even be activated in 1v1. The fact is which no one is still addressing is if I run into 2 guys by myself I should not be given an advantage. That in fact promotes the opposite of team work.

ImTiredOfU
04-24-2017, 04:46 AM
Again the problem here is it's not limited to 1v4. If it was only then it was activated then I would agree with you but it wasn't and still isn't. It can even be activated in 1v1. The fact is which no one is still addressing is if I run into 2 guys by myself I should not be given an advantage. That in fact promotes the opposite of team work.

See that what you people seem to be missing no one was saying revenge didn't need nerfed. What they did was try to nerf it to fix hero's which it didn't at all. Like I said classes can almost 2 shot now without revenge so attack nerf no brainer gains nerf no brainer knockdown ok I get it but that should have been it fix the hero's at that point. As I stated before read you will see.

Antonioj26
04-24-2017, 04:56 AM
See that what you people seem to be missing no one was saying revenge didn't need nerfed. What they did was try to nerf it to fix hero's which it didn't at all. Like I said classes can almost 2 shot now without revenge so attack nerf no brainer gains nerf no brainer knockdown ok I get it but that should have been it fix the hero's at that point. As I stated before read you will see.

Actually many are saying that it shouldn't have been nerfed. Where are you geTting this "nerf revenge to balance heros," you keep talking about? I haven't seen anyone from ubisoft or even anyone but you on these forums say this. Yeah I saw you say fix the heros, nerf the gains, and nerf the attack. So is the only thing you wanted to keep defense?

Antonioj26
04-24-2017, 05:05 AM
What is such a big deal about having a game give a 1v4 a chance against bad teamwork. Why not give them a chance insead of a guaranteed during squad. Are you really that sore of a loser. Just can't say man 1 of use should have gb instead of all 4 smashing r2 and give them credit for teaching to work together. Why was that so bad now you just expect them to lay the controller down in a 1 v 4 can you not really see this being a problem. No oh wait your solution is to what punish people for leaving instead of no chance firing squad for your enjoyment.

Again, if that were the only time revenge popped I'm willing to bet most would be on your side. Turns out it doesn't work that way. It can work in every encounter out numbered or not. That should not be the case.

ImTiredOfU
04-24-2017, 05:06 AM
Actually many are saying that it shouldn't have been nerfed. Where are you geTting this "nerf revenge to balance heros," you keep talking about? I haven't seen anyone from ubisoft or even anyone but you on these forums say this. Yeah I saw you say fix the heros, nerf the gains, and nerf the attack. So is the only thing you wanted to keep defense?

People complained about revenge due to exploited hero mechanics just like warlord headbutt. The problem wasn't revenge the problem is 100percent tracking spammable knockdown. See that's a hero issue not revenge but revenge was blamed. See where I'm going people blamed revenge so that's what they nerfed so in actuality they nerfed it to fix heros which didn't work.

Antonioj26
04-24-2017, 05:08 AM
What is such a big deal about having a game give a 1v4 a chance against bad teamwork. Why not give them a chance insead of a guaranteed during squad. Are you really that sore of a loser. Just can't say man 1 of use should have gb instead of all 4 smashing r2 and give them credit for teaching to work together. Why was that so bad now you just expect them to lay the controller down in a 1 v 4 can you not really see this being a problem. No oh wait your solution is to what punish people for leaving instead of no chance firing squad for your enjoyment.

Again you are promoting team work while talking about a 1v4. They got to a 1v4 because they are using team work or in the case of elimination they all won their 1v1 fights, It didn't just magically happen that way. How does a mechanic like revenge promote team work if it incentives someone to go solo to get stronger?

Antonioj26
04-24-2017, 05:15 AM
People complained about revenge due to exploited hero mechanics just like warlord headbutt. The problem wasn't revenge the problem is 100percent tracking spammable knockdown. See that's a hero issue not revenge but revenge was blamed. See where I'm going people blamed revenge so that's what they nerfed so in actuality they nerfed it to fix heros which didn't work.

Knock downs wasn't the only issue though, like I said it only takes one teammate to guard break the enemy while you revenge and you've now killed that person in one hit. If you are saying revenge defense shouldn't have been nerfed and only that then I can somewhat agree with you but other than that I can't see the logic.

ImTiredOfU
04-24-2017, 05:22 AM
Again you are promoting team work while talking about a 1v4. They got to a 1v4 because they are using team work or in the case of elimination they all won their 1v1 fights, It didn't just magically happen that way. How does a mechanic like revenge promote team work if it incentives someone to go solo to get stronger?

Again why should teamwork stop at 1v4? What is the fun? Is it just so u can smash the last loser To make a point. I'm guessing you teabag too. Is it so wrong to have a game diffrent for once. Like I said if you work as a team they wouldn't win so yeah team play from 4v4 to 0v4 not team play 4v4 then smash r2 1v4 for auto win. See revenge wasn't auto win the new meta is auto win. If you make it so people don't have a decent chance they give up. That's what this promotes instead well if they don't work together I got a chance or the team winning thinking they need to be careful.

Antonioj26
04-24-2017, 05:23 AM
If 1is killed he go to team mate there its 2v1 he die they go to 3vs1 etc.
The last one is finished !
Matterfact before patch everyone was beginning to gank with a certain caution and strategy!
Now its just buttonmash meltdown

Yeah then they would build revenge in the 2v1 in a fight that's half way over and the 2 guys would be 1 shotted by the guy with revenge. Make up your mind up man, should this game be about team work or not? Should 1 guy watch while the his buddy goes 1v1 and just let his teammate die? Not to mention the guy will have revenge build up from the previous fight and will stomp out the guy without it.

Antonioj26
04-24-2017, 05:27 AM
Again why should teamwork stop at 1v4? What is the fun? Is it just so u can smash the last loser To make a point. I'm guessing you teabag too. Is it so wrong to have a game diffrent for once. Like I said if you work as a team they wouldn't win so yeah team play from 4v4 to 0v4 not team play 4v4 then smash r2 1v4 for auto win. See revenge wasn't auto win the new meta is auto win. If you make it so people don't have a decent chance they give up. That's what this promotes instead well if they don't work together I got a chance or the team winning thinking they need to be careful.

Who said I said stop teamwork at 1v4? No one is saying there's is something wrong with the game being different dude, people are saying stupid mechanics don't belong in a game. Please address my point of 1v1 revenge or any other number other than 1v4. You are taking the most extreme example of which I've already said if it was limited to that that most of the community wouldn't have cared. I doubt many lost in 1v4 as the group.

ImTiredOfU
04-24-2017, 05:28 AM
Knock downs wasn't the only issue though, like I said it only takes one teammate to guard break the enemy while you revenge and you've now killed that person in one hit. If you are saying revenge defense shouldn't have been nerfed and only that then I can somewhat agree with you but other than that I can't see the logic.

I did say only defense needed to stay we can 2 to 3 shot without revenge now. Why need extra attack like that. The current state it's only good to run in 1v4 of defense was raised back up revenge would be fine and give skilled people actual chance and not be gods. But they need to fix the turtle meta.

Antonioj26
04-24-2017, 05:33 AM
I did say only defense needed to stay we can 2 to 3 shot without revenge now. Why need extra attack like that. The current state it's only good to run in 1v4 of defense was raised back up revenge would be fine and give skilled people actual chance and not be gods. But they need to fix the turtle meta.

alright i dont have a problem with 1v4 defense going back up, hell if you reverted it completely back to prenerf for 1v4 only then I wouldnt complain but it just didn't make sense for revenge to be procd in any other instance in the form that it was in. 1v3 somewhat acceptable I guess but still pretty iffy on that one.

ImTiredOfU
04-24-2017, 05:42 AM
Who said I said stop teamwork at 1v4? No one is saying there's is something wrong with the game being different dude, people are saying stupid mechanics don't belong in a game. Please address my point of 1v1 revenge or any other number other than 1v4. You are taking the most extreme example of which I've already said if it was limited to that that most of the community wouldn't have cared. I doubt many lost in 1v4 as the group.

I'm not only talking 1v4 they fixed the issue with double dipping revenge gain. Yes 1v1 revenge sucks but so does getting shot with an arrow I'll tell you the same solution dodge. If you run up on 1v2 don't target at the same time za or if you lock on gb. 2v2 don't target same guy unless you work together 2v3 target 1 and work together to gb/hit/ disable as a team move to next. See teamwork if you don't do this and all smashed r2 you ended up on your back if you worked together then you all shouldn't be on your back. Now it's group up as quick as you can and smash buttons no penalty at all cuz 3 People smashing r2 anyone without a shield is dead before your sword comes down when you pop revenge if they didn't get knocked back.

ImTiredOfU
04-24-2017, 05:54 AM
alright i dont have a problem with 1v4 defense going back up, hell if you reverted it completely back to prenerf for 1v4 only then I wouldnt complain but it just didn't make sense for revenge to be procd in any other instance in the form that it was in. 1v3 somewhat acceptable I guess but still pretty iffy on that one.

That's the thing there is many counters to revenge no matter 1v4 2v4 3v4 or whatever the case. Revenge was easily delt with a side from double dipping turtle meta as long as you coordinated attacks. Teamwork. See everyone is to worried trying to get an execution that the first thing they do is try to take the kill but didn't tell you and bam dead due to no coordination team work. Za gb disable run till revenge gone all viable counters

Antonioj26
04-24-2017, 11:52 AM
That's the thing there is many counters to revenge no matter 1v4 2v4 3v4 or whatever the case. Revenge was easily delt with a side from double dipping turtle meta as long as you coordinated attacks. Teamwork. See everyone is to worried trying to get an execution that the first thing they do is try to take the kill but didn't tell you and bam dead due to no coordination team work. Za gb disable run till revenge gone all viable counters

You are talking to me as someone who is dying to revenge and not someone who used it's ridiculous stength. If it was as simple as guard break or run away til it's gone then the nerf wouldn't have happened.

If you are having to focus on the guy that has revenge to not get one shot you are open to being attacked from his teammate, or if it's a solo guy then he is keeping 2 or 3 guys out of a fight who are now just turtling so they don't die. Bringing up feats doesn't help your case. Apples and oranges. Back to 1v1 revenge, it's easy here to abuse here to dude. Let's say you've had a well fought battle, you are each down to one bar. You get that parry off of his light and go into GB and all of a sudden he gets revenge after you've already went into your heavy. Now you can say feint but those sort of reactions on something that is normally a guaranteed heavy are ridiculous since in no other scenario you would never need to feint. It's muscle memory at this point to let that heavy go.

Another scenario, the guy had built up revenge. Neither of you has taken but through just good defensive play and countering eachother he managed to get it. He hasn't popped it though, instead he goes into full attack mode opening you up with unblockables. How do you counter this? This man basically has a bomb connected to him so the second you attack him you will die. Feint all you want, he will not take damage and not pop until you throw a light.

Prorevenge people assume that anti revengers don't know the counters to revenge. I'm saying I know all the counters and how to counter the counters. Very few people even came close to stopping me and it would more often be from getting help from a guy I didn't see on screen that wasn't in the fight that was a disabler. Even then if I had enough health I could get those 3 or so blocks I needed and back to god mode and focus the disabler.

kweassa1917
04-24-2017, 01:08 PM
That's the thing there is many counters to revenge no matter 1v4 2v4 3v4 or whatever the case. Revenge was easily delt with a side from double dipping turtle meta as long as you coordinated attacks. Teamwork. See everyone is to worried trying to get an execution that the first thing they do is try to take the kill but didn't tell you and bam dead due to no coordination team work. Za gb disable run till revenge gone all viable counters

Yes, a game that forces high amounts of coordination, teamwork and skill for more than three, four times the numbers of people to take just 1 guy down -- because the system just massively overboosts base stats for 10 seconds with 5sec intervals non-stop, certainly sounds "balanced".:rolleyes:

Why bother play a team game at all? Go to singleplayer take down npc hordes. There's your "old revenge mode FH" right there.

DrinkinMyStella
04-24-2017, 02:53 PM
I find it funny so many people are mad that they actually have to learn how to play now lol

to be fair i'm a pretty decent 1v1 and 4v4 player my overall KD and duel KD with my main is good as well but getting ganked is too easy now. If the Matchmaking was fixed then 108 could play with 108 and then its fair all round. Its harder for people who was new to for honor because of their base stats but fixing the MM would have been better than completely draining the revenge stats to nearly nothing.

CandleInTheDark
04-24-2017, 04:16 PM
I absolutely agree that pre-nerf revenge builds were too strong, it was easier to waltz into a group and feel safe because revenge popped far too often constantly refreshing your shield making it hard to make a dent on HP at all. It needed toning down, not to be gutted. It only needed a hard nerf on how quickly it built up and slight nerfs to attack and defense. Instead it was heavily nerfed in every aspect, which was a step too far imo.

I'm also capable of killing two bad players in its current form, but anyone with experience with the game is a different story. Once you've played for a bit, you learn how to deal with revenge and this is who we should be balancing the game around no? So I'd still argue that revenge in it's current state is next to useless against any semi-decent players.

I loved the idea of revenge when I first heard about it, it discouraged ganking like we're seeing today. Now that its been severely weakened, players have no quarrels jumping in and spamming like no tomorrow. This is the type of bad game play that old revenge punished well. I don't want the old revenge back though, I just want revenge to function like the devs intended it too, which is my opinion to promote better and more fun game play.

Again, people call it ganking and other negative terms, you are in a team game, there are four people on each team, each team has the same opportunity. If one person runs into three or four, then in skirmish their team have fallen apart entirely, I have seen a constant wave of people throwing themselves into groups and dying two at a time rather than regrouping, they are playing badly, why is the game rewarding them? In dominion, if you can deal with one or two when holding zone, you get a health boost at your zone after killing them, if all four are coming at you then your team should be capturing the other two basesor one other base if it is three coming at you and if they are neither helping you nor improving your situation in terms of points, again revenge is rewarding the team doing badly. In elimination if there is a mismatch it is because either someone is dead or they disengaged from their original 1v1, if it was your opponent going to find a boost then smart play is to go after someone else because you will be at a disadvantage 1v1, if it is because they went to group up with a teammate, either you should have followed them to make it 2v2 or found another battle to make it 2v1.The problem is revenge tends to reward those losing through poor play or outmatched through poor teamwork. if your team is 1v4, well your team sucked, or you didn't back them up when you went to get that attack boost, again you are at a disadvantage through your own play and you should not be able to carry the team to a win unless you are more skilled than the others working as a team.

Even the people who are defending the nerf, by the by, are saying that it shouldn't be made weaker or it might as well be removed. Having been in other team pvp games, I would be quite happy playing without but if the devs think there is a need for it then I will play with that also. The issue is you and perhaps only one other in this thread acknowledge that it was overpowered to begin with, I can see a case for maybe increasing it a little if people can't even use it to break away from engagements which is how I tend to use it,that little space to regroup and maybe take someone out on the way, but most people, it seems, want the nerf rolling back all together so they are safer 1v3 or 1v4 than 1v1 and that is not a healthy state for the game, where the people losing are those with the advantage and the capability to win the fight.

Personally, I think what needs to happen is people need to play with it as it is for a while and see what they can do with it, give the devs time to collect data and if it really is the case that people can roam in four and wipe the map no matter how well the other team plays, and I don't mean if the other team is just working solo, I mean if they don't have the chance to work as a team at all, maybe raise a concern to look at giving it small buffs until it is where it needs to be. At the moment though, there are two very definite sides going by this forum, people who want the nerf rolled back all together and people who were sick of it pre-nerf (with a very few somewhere in between) and that isn't a state for reasonable discussion.

Gray360UK
04-24-2017, 05:03 PM
Just last night on my Warden I was fighting a Valkyrie (and winning) when an enemy Warden decided to join in. I got Revenge, it knocked the Warden down, and I was able to finsh and execute the Valkyrie before the Warden could stop me. When an enemy Raider joined in with a Stampede Charge, just as my Revenge ran out, I still had enough health left thanks to Revenge to beat a safe retreat. The Raider did not follow me. The Warden did and realised his mistake when I stopped running a few seconds later.

Revenge allowed me to kill 1 enemy when confronted by 3. Revenge allowed me to evade the remaining 2 and later killl 1 of those as well. So at the end of the encounter, where I was alone and not once had the aid of a team mate, 2 of my 3 enemies lay dead, thanks only partly to Revenge and partly to having some situational awareness, playing tactically and knowing when to stand and fight and when to run away.

Revenge saved my butt against the Valkyrie and the Warden. Revenge did not allow me to stand my ground and destroy the Valkyrie, the Warden and the Raider, as it would have done pre-patch.

Revenge played a part, but it did not do all the work.

This is new Revenge, you don't get to kill every last mofo in the room. You do get to kill one and buy yourself the chance to escape and kill another if you are smart and know how to play.

I find it really hard to believe that anyone who has a problem with post patch Revenge doesn't just want the kill every last mofo in the room part back, so they don't have to think.

ShadowFetus
04-24-2017, 05:13 PM
Unskilled gank squads, as opposed to skilled revenge builds? Lol

I'm with the dude above me, the new Revenge plays its part well.

It's no longer, "turn super saiyan and spam attacks till everyone around you dies". You still have to think about your choices, not just swing wildly because you can't be interrupted and have insane defense and attack.

MumfordDaHound
04-24-2017, 06:05 PM
The thing about better team work wins, your team sucked blah blah blah is a really really weak argument. If team A is better and now have a 4v1, how is it remotely possible that the one little player left beats said superior grp? How is this an issue?? If they were such a better grp they would disable/back off when needed to kill that lonely player. They went gank and paid for it... If they used team work, revenge can be buffed higher then it was and that team that does it correctly crushes the lone person, no question. Also, I would really like stats on how many ppl really win 4v1 across all the 4v4 modes, my guess its really low.

DuhSavagePickle
04-24-2017, 06:10 PM
Just last night on my Warden I was fighting a Valkyrie (and winning) when an enemy Warden decided to join in. I got Revenge, it knocked the Warden down, and I was able to finsh and execute the Valkyrie before the Warden could stop me. When an enemy Raider joined in with a Stampede Charge, just as my Revenge ran out, I still had enough health left thanks to Revenge to beat a safe retreat. The Raider did not follow me. The Warden did and realised his mistake when I stopped running a few seconds later.

Revenge allowed me to kill 1 enemy when confronted by 3. Revenge allowed me to evade the remaining 2 and later killl 1 of those as well. So at the end of the encounter, where I was alone and not once had the aid of a team mate, 2 of my 3 enemies lay dead, thanks only partly to Revenge and partly to having some situational awareness, playing tactically and knowing when to stand and fight and when to run away.

Revenge saved my butt against the Valkyrie and the Warden. Revenge did not allow me to stand my ground and destroy the Valkyrie, the Warden and the Raider, as it would have done pre-patch.

Revenge played a part, but it did not do all the work.

This is new Revenge, you don't get to kill every last mofo in the room. You do get to kill one and buy yourself the chance to escape and kill another if you are smart and know how to play.

I find it really hard to believe that anyone who has a problem with post patch Revenge doesn't just want the kill every last mofo in the room part back, so they don't have to think.

This.

iPlaySavageAF
04-24-2017, 06:14 PM
Since the revenge nerf, ppl are playing so scummy in 4v4s. Shugoki and Lawbringer gank squad that travels in 3 or 4 players are steamed rolling through everything to the point where the game is less appealing to me.

I've always qued solo because that's my style and my teammates are low gear scor randoms don't stand a chance against these teams. Thus, it's forcing me to get a pre made 4s squad myself which I do not want to do. Before patch, I was able stand a chance with these scummy and unskillful tactics teams. Now it's almost impossible to win 1 verses 2 or 3 against these teams let alone good players.

Ultimately, I rather have revenge the way it was. Ppl have to take calculated risk before jumping on opponents. Now, it's just why not double or triple team that player because there are no more risk of fighting in advantages. For Honor is no longer fun :/

I actually like the Revenge feature. It allows a skilled player to battle vs 2 or more enemies at the same time. I think its fine.

CandleInTheDark
04-24-2017, 06:15 PM
This.

That.

Or maybe the other?

iPlaySavageAF
04-24-2017, 06:16 PM
[QUOTE=Originally Posted by Gray360UK View Post

Just last night on my Warden I was fighting a Valkyrie (and winning) when an enemy Warden decided to join in. I got Revenge, it knocked the Warden down, and I was able to finsh and execute the Valkyrie before the Warden could stop me. When an enemy Raider joined in with a Stampede Charge, just as my Revenge ran out, I still had enough health left thanks to Revenge to beat a safe retreat. The Raider did not follow me. The Warden did and realised his mistake when I stopped running a few seconds later.

Revenge allowed me to kill 1 enemy when confronted by 3. Revenge allowed me to evade the remaining 2 and later killl 1 of those as well. So at the end of the encounter, where I was alone and not once had the aid of a team mate, 2 of my 3 enemies lay dead, thanks only partly to Revenge and partly to having some situational awareness, playing tactically and knowing when to stand and fight and when to run away.

Revenge saved my butt against the Valkyrie and the Warden. Revenge did not allow me to stand my ground and destroy the Valkyrie, the Warden and the Raider, as it would have done pre-patch.

Revenge played a part, but it did not do all the work.

This is new Revenge, you don't get to kill every last mofo in the room. You do get to kill one and buy yourself the chance to escape and kill another if you are smart and know how to play.

I find it really hard to believe that anyone who has a problem with post patch Revenge doesn't just want the kill every last mofo in the room part back, so they don't have to think.[/QUOTE]

Well said, re-posting this

Bob__Gnarly
04-26-2017, 07:22 AM
Again, people call it ganking and other negative terms, you are in a team game, there are four people on each team, each team has the same opportunity. If one person runs into three or four, then in skirmish their team have fallen apart entirely, I have seen a constant wave of people throwing themselves into groups and dying two at a time rather than regrouping, they are playing badly, why is the game rewarding them? In dominion, if you can deal with one or two when holding zone, you get a health boost at your zone after killing them, if all four are coming at you then your team should be capturing the other two basesor one other base if it is three coming at you and if they are neither helping you nor improving your situation in terms of points, again revenge is rewarding the team doing badly. In elimination if there is a mismatch it is because either someone is dead or they disengaged from their original 1v1, if it was your opponent going to find a boost then smart play is to go after someone else because you will be at a disadvantage 1v1, if it is because they went to group up with a teammate, either you should have followed them to make it 2v2 or found another battle to make it 2v1.The problem is revenge tends to reward those losing through poor play or outmatched through poor teamwork. if your team is 1v4, well your team sucked, or you didn't back them up when you went to get that attack boost, again you are at a disadvantage through your own play and you should not be able to carry the team to a win unless you are more skilled than the others working as a team.

Even the people who are defending the nerf, by the by, are saying that it shouldn't be made weaker or it might as well be removed. Having been in other team pvp games, I would be quite happy playing without but if the devs think there is a need for it then I will play with that also. The issue is you and perhaps only one other in this thread acknowledge that it was overpowered to begin with, I can see a case for maybe increasing it a little if people can't even use it to break away from engagements which is how I tend to use it,that little space to regroup and maybe take someone out on the way, but most people, it seems, want the nerf rolling back all together so they are safer 1v3 or 1v4 than 1v1 and that is not a healthy state for the game, where the people losing are those with the advantage and the capability to win the fight.

Personally, I think what needs to happen is people need to play with it as it is for a while and see what they can do with it, give the devs time to collect data and if it really is the case that people can roam in four and wipe the map no matter how well the other team plays, and I don't mean if the other team is just working solo, I mean if they don't have the chance to work as a team at all, maybe raise a concern to look at giving it small buffs until it is where it needs to be. At the moment though, there are two very definite sides going by this forum, people who want the nerf rolled back all together and people who were sick of it pre-nerf (with a very few somewhere in between) and that isn't a state for reasonable discussion.

Well i use ganking for lack of a better term.
I don't necessarily see it as a negative word but an easy way to describe what's happening. Most gamers can picture what you're referring to when you say you got ganked.

I agree with you when you say there seems to be two camps, players that want it rolled back and players that like it how it is. I'm neither. Pre nerf revenge was OP, I think we can all agree on that. I don't want to see that returned, because it was not fun to play or play against. Players built for revenge would gain it as soon as a second player stepped in and farted on them, it was insane. On top of that, it multiplied your attack & defence stats to crazy levels, so you basically could keep popping superman mode constantly while being focused by multiple players. It was easier to fight outnumbered rather than 1v1, which didn't make sense, so when i heard a nerf was coming, it was music to my ears. I just think they took it a little too far is all.

Personally I'd keep revenge build up slow. I don't think it should even build in 1v1s to be honest. I would like to see it's duration increased and even a slight buff to it's shield, so I don't feel like i have to rush all my attacks before revenge runs out.

Frappenstain
04-26-2017, 09:01 AM
You should duel if you seek honor. It's a hard game. It's about skill and prediction. It's just normal that weak peoples team up and gank. Those were are my toughts about your post if we don't have "Skirmish mode". I totally agree and understand your anger. Join skirmish if you are going to gank others. Stop doing elemination and use current setup which desingned for that game play.