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radi0wantcandy
04-21-2017, 02:35 AM
There needs to be limits on this... SEVERE limits. No more than twice in a row.

In my opinion, it's technically a exploit.

I've seen a couple different classes able to do it, but in particular, the Lawbringer is the worst, imo.

Someone please explain how to counter this?

In my experience, the only guard break you can counter to prevent this is the initial one. Otherwise, it's a trash spam until the Lawblinger is out of Stamina.

What this does is basically restart the fight once you make it out of the trash loop, except you have about 1/4 health.

Also, anyone who says anything about agreeing with KEEPING it in the game is more than likely a trashcan as well.

but tl;dr

THIS GAME COULD BE GREAT WITH SOME SORT OF MECHANIC THAT PREVENTS FIGHTS FROM TURNING INTO WHO CAN SPAM GUARDBREAK AND UNBLOCKABLES FASTER

IesooMI
04-21-2017, 02:38 AM
Seeing as how unblockables can be dodged or parryed and CGB beats GB you should be raking in the flawless victorys, no?

radi0wantcandy
04-21-2017, 02:44 AM
Please understand that I in no way want to remove guard breaks or unblockables from the game.

I'm only saying that the ability to trap someone into a trash spam loop where the same two actions are performed in combination 5+ times... There's absolutely 0 counterplay after getting hit with a successful guard break. The stun from the guard break prevents parrying the unblock able or dodging and the unblock able attack stuns you for a split second, long enough to get hit by another guard break.

There's no reason for this. Either make it so you can still parry attacks while stunned like this, or make these skills perform in such a way that they can't be over used more than 2 times in a row.

To be honest, ideally once should be the limit. The problem arises when a mechanic meant to SUPPLEMENT combat becomes the main form of combat. It's a bad mechanic when it's use it or lose. If that was how this was supposed to be we may as well change the title from For Honor to For Spam.

radi0wantcandy
04-21-2017, 02:49 AM
Seeing as how unblockables can be dodged or parryed and CGB beats GB you should be raking in the flawless victorys, no?

This is not 100% accurate in this case.

The initial guard break/Unblockable is able to be countered in a number of ways, but IF YOU FAIL ONCE, a good spammer will make you feel it 5 more times.

I seriously doubt this was how the game was intended to be played.

The problem is after the initial guard break goes through and then the unblockable lands, there's periods of time where you CANNOT REACT, no movement, CGB, parries, blocks or dodges.

How is it fair to lose one guard break and be punished 5-6 times for it. If you survive, you don't have an easy fight ahead of yourself after. Most of the time it's nearly impossible to come back from that.

JayyRupp
04-21-2017, 02:51 AM
Wow you're bad. Learn to read your opponent. If you can't dodge or parry unblockables there's something wrong with you. EVERY fighting game has unblockables. Can't counter a guardbreak? It's incredibly easy now. Bad.

Titanodragon
04-21-2017, 02:54 AM
I main LB and I'll tell you it can be countered after the first one....
But if you keep trying to dodge after the shove, I'll GB you easily. And another way to counter it is to simply unlock and roll away, not double tap your Dodge button.

radi0wantcandy
04-21-2017, 02:57 AM
Wow you're bad. Learn to read your opponent. If you can't dodge or parry unblockables there's something wrong with you. EVERY fighting game has unblockables. Can't counter a guardbreak? It's incredibly easy now. Bad.


Learn to read pleb. You're so ready to defend spam, you can't even comprehend everything I'm trying to say.

Blues_Waffle
04-21-2017, 11:09 AM
Git gud

kweassa1917
04-21-2017, 11:24 AM
Some of his comments have merit.

I've said this in other posts, but design-wise, particularly with fighting games, there's a long standing rule of thumb which is....



"If an attack is..."

(1) relatively quick and safe to use, and UB(unblockable), then it doesn't have any special effects(knockdown, stamina drain, CC, etc..)
(2) quick and safe, and has special effects, then it's not UB
(3) UB, and has special effects, then it's neither quick nor safe

It's always at max, two of such traits given to a skill. You never, ever give all 3 to a single skill in a fighting game.
In retrospect, FH has a LOT of those.


...and then you notice the pattern --- the classes people come to call as "OP", or even if not OP still frustrating like heck to fight against, are those who have the game's best spammable UBs.


Frankly, my view is that like 70~80% of the game's UBs need to be made much more difficult to spam.

radi0wantcandy
04-21-2017, 11:38 AM
Some of his comments have merit.

I've said this in other posts, but design-wise, particularly with fighting games, there's a long standing rule of thumb which is....



"If an attack is..."

(1) relatively quick and safe to use, and UB(unblockable), then it doesn't have any special effects(knockdown, stamina drain, CC, etc..)
(2) quick and safe, and has special effects, then it's not UB
(3) UB, and has special effects, then it's neither quick nor safe

It's always at max, two of such traits given to a skill. You never, ever give all 3 to a single skill in a fighting game.
In retrospect, FH has a LOT of those.


...and then you notice the pattern --- the classes people come to call as "OP", or even if not OP still frustrating like heck to fight against, are those who have the game's best spammable UBs.


Frankly, my view is that like 70~80% of the game's UBs need to be made much more difficult to spam.


THANK YOU


I mean seriously the only people who say, 'git gud' are the ones spamming a SUPPLEMENTAL feature of the game and turning that supplemental spam into the game's, 'norm.'

I find it hilarious that the ones who say you're bad because you just watched them spam you in a corner never actually fight. They actually do EVERYTHING they can to do anything but fight.

radi0wantcandy
04-21-2017, 11:46 AM
Also, I SERIOUSLY doubt this is what Ubisoft had in mind when they designed the guard break and unblockable moves.

It's a terrible experience all around. On the losing side you feel like a spectator when you get locked in one of these spam loops, and on the winning side, once it's overused and well known it turns into a use or lose mechanic for the broken champion.

That's the first tell tale sign of imbalance or simply broken champions when they start to become use or lose.

What's sad is I REALLY enjoy the back and forth momentum styling in this game but you remove that when you start exploiting spam loops.

There is little to no counterplay, and anyone who disagrees is probably guilty of abusing it.

Sov3R3ignN
04-21-2017, 02:44 PM
Wow you're bad. Learn to read your opponent. If you can't dodge or parry unblockables there's something wrong with you. EVERY fighting game has unblockables. Can't counter a guardbreak? It's incredibly easy now. Bad.

Well, this is a perfect proof of ignorance. If you are stating that spam moves are fun game play then no wonder this game is loosing the player base. Have it eve occurred to anyone that it's not just the game issues that cause people to quit but the toxicity of a For Honor player base? If this games core becomes to be who is more lucky to start the spam train then why even play the game?

Joseph_2017
04-21-2017, 03:27 PM
Just experienced this too.. Its brutal.If you dont die your at critical health. Hopefully it's brought up in todays stream so they can explain how to defend in this scenario.

CitizenPuddi
04-21-2017, 07:31 PM
this whole "unblockable spam vortex crap" debacle kinda reminds me of a similar issue in Chivalry

anyone else remember back when "Chivalry: Medieval Warfare" was "Chivalry: Medieval Warfare", and not "BEYBLADE BEYBLADE LET IT RIP HITBOX ABUSE: THE GAME"?

Antonioj26
04-21-2017, 10:53 PM
Is your issue ublockable, guardbreak into heavy, then rinse and repeat? If that's the case then all you have to do is cgb the LB. how is that difficult? It's literally what every basic lawbringer does so brace yourself for the cgb button after you get hit with an unblockable.

DrDockter
05-10-2017, 07:38 PM
The real problem with unblockables is that charge (forward-moving) unblockables are out of place in the game, which is what makes them so difficult to contend with. Personally, the lawbringer is by far the easiest to avoid, because it is by far the slowest. Especially if someone is spamming, after the first time I recongize the strategy it's simple to roll away and get behind him for a couple free heavy strikes. This is because when spamming, he will go for the unblockable then guard break, so if you dodge the unblockable, he's still going to be locked into the backswing time for the guardbreak when you move in for a couple hits.

However, the shield bash moves (al a valkyrie) are virtually unavoidable when used by good players, and it's the equivalent of an uncounterable guard break. Used at point-blank range, there is technically time to react and dodge to the side IF you react instantly, but you can not dodge back or it will still connect. Used at a bit of distance, the move is very dodgeable, but dodging backwards is still very unreliable. However, at range there is another major problem. These characters all have other quick-charge attacks which are easily blocked, but NOT easily dodged because they have a bit of horizontal tracking. This means that when at slight range the shield-bashes are just as hard to dodge because the timing window is so small, yet you must be absolutely certain of what move you're reacting to or you'll make the wrong choice, and so there's hesitation.

The only really safe option is breaking lock-on and rolling forward and to the Valkyrie in-partcular. This is because her quick-charge attack actually has so much range that even a full backwards roll is still within range. She also happens to be one of very few characters that possesses a long-range horizontal sweeping attack (also unblockable), which means rolling sideways often leaves you in-range as well, so your only option is rolling mostly towards her to get behind her attack. All this would be a non-issue if she just didn't have the shield-charge, then you'd be able to reliably back-dodge and/or block against all of her attacks just like the other characters without a chield-bash unblockable.


I know that shield bashes are EXACTLY what would be used in by fighters in that period, and true to life it is completely unblockable if you're in the way of it. However, they would NOT have any sort of range on those attacks. Real shield bashes are done with the feet firmly planted, not a sudden jump forward. That means you SHOULD be out of range unless you're standing right on top of them, making it a much more difficult move to land and much more dangerous to use (just like in real life). It would make the move all but useless agaisnt long-range characters, and a great tool against short-ranged ones, which makes it very balanced in the same way many moves are useless against certain heroes, yet overwhelmingly powerful against a handful where it can actually be landed.



The point is, forward-charge unblockables are completely out of balance within the game. They have no checks and no openings. Even if you dodge, it takes longer to dodge than the backswing on these attacks, giving them an opening even if you CAN dodge, which you probably won't unless someone is spamming the ability. In fact, dodging a shield-charge typically gives the same opening that they would get if they landed it, the only exception being if they knock you into a wall and actually stun you long enough to land a truly free shot.So in the end, there is absolutely no check in the game for shield-bash moves that can be performed without a combo. If they were point-blank range, I'd say problem solved.

Antonioj26
05-10-2017, 08:10 PM
The real problem with unblockables is that charge (forward-moving) unblockables are out of place in the game, which is what makes them so difficult to contend with. Personally, the lawbringer is by far the easiest to avoid, because it is by far the slowest. Especially if someone is spamming, after the first time I recongize the strategy it's simple to roll away and get behind him for a couple free heavy strikes. This is because when spamming, he will go for the unblockable then guard break, so if you dodge the unblockable, he's still going to be locked into the backswing time for the guardbreak when you move in for a couple hits.

However, the shield bash moves (al a valkyrie) are virtually unavoidable when used by good players, and it's the equivalent of an uncounterable guard break. Used at point-blank range, there is technically time to react and dodge to the side IF you react instantly, but you can not dodge back or it will still connect. Used at a bit of distance, the move is very dodgeable, but dodging backwards is still very unreliable. However, at range there is another major problem. These characters all have other quick-charge attacks which are easily blocked, but NOT easily dodged because they have a bit of horizontal tracking. This means that when at slight range the shield-bashes are just as hard to dodge because the timing window is so small, yet you must be absolutely certain of what move you're reacting to or you'll make the wrong choice, and so there's hesitation.

The only really safe option is breaking lock-on and rolling forward and to the Valkyrie in-partcular. This is because her quick-charge attack actually has so much range that even a full backwards roll is still within range. She also happens to be one of very few characters that possesses a long-range horizontal sweeping attack (also unblockable), which means rolling sideways often leaves you in-range as well, so your only option is rolling mostly towards her to get behind her attack. All this would be a non-issue if she just didn't have the shield-charge, then you'd be able to reliably back-dodge and/or block against all of her attacks just like the other characters without a chield-bash unblockable.


I know that shield bashes are EXACTLY what would be used in by fighters in that period, and true to life it is completely unblockable if you're in the way of it. However, they would NOT have any sort of range on those attacks. Real shield bashes are done with the feet firmly planted, not a sudden jump forward. That means you SHOULD be out of range unless you're standing right on top of them, making it a much more difficult move to land and much more dangerous to use (just like in real life). It would make the move all but useless agaisnt long-range characters, and a great tool against short-ranged ones, which makes it very balanced in the same way many moves are useless against certain heroes, yet overwhelmingly powerful against a handful where it can actually be landed.



The point is, forward-charge unblockables are completely out of balance within the game. They have no checks and no openings. Even if you dodge, it takes longer to dodge than the backswing on these attacks, giving them an opening even if you CAN dodge, which you probably won't unless someone is spamming the ability. In fact, dodging a shield-charge typically gives the same opening that they would get if they landed it, the only exception being if they knock you into a wall and actually stun you long enough to land a truly free shot.So in the end, there is absolutely no check in the game for shield-bash moves that can be performed without a combo. If they were point-blank range, I'd say problem solved.

But none of these forward moving unblockables give you a guaranteed free guard break and most are punishable. Valks might be one of the hardest to dodge but it yields no rewards for her. If she follows with an attack you can block, if she gb you can get a cgb. If your referring to the one where she goes in all guard it also does nothing unless she gets a full charge and I don't see how that can ever land in a 1v1. Many of these bashes are punishable as well with a free gb. Conq, warden, and valk all yield a free gb. Warlord might too but I haven't tested this. I know lbs don't but you can get a free light in, yeah he will get the shove off but if you are willing to make that trade you can or it's also incredibly slow and easy to dodge unless followed by a heavy/block.

TLDR

No bash gives a guaranteed gb that cant be cgb.