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SendRickPics
04-20-2017, 07:22 AM
So as no doubt many of you have noticed, Revenge Mode was nerfed to not even a shadow of its former capabilities with this most recent patch v1.05.
The most glaring and severe consequence of this nerf being the prevailing use of ganking tactics in any game mode of 4v4. Players in groups no longer are mindful of how they swing their blade, as even if they push the outnumbered party into revenge, there will be no comeuppance for their indiscretion. No penalty for their dishonor. Nothing to stem the tide of poor gameplay.

With this in mind I propose a form of protest, to show Ubisoft and the community that we are no in favor of this change.


Since we cannot fight the gang banging cucklords head on anymore when they force an outnumbered fight, let us instead do as they say... let us flee.

My proposal is this: From this day onward; I encourage all players alienated, unsatisfied, and unhappy with this patch and its affect on gameplay to take up arms as fleet footed characters with maxed out sprinting speed. As Peacekeepers, Orochis, Berserkers, etc. I encourage you all; when your enemies show you dishonor and attempt to gank you, to simply flee. Flee, and flee, and flee. Outrun them, out pace them, and run out the clock as long and as many times as you possibly can.

Take away from them their joy so that too can be as dissatisfied with the state of the game as you are.


I've put it into practice myself, running out the clock, unable to be caught. It is very effective at gathering hate messages from opposing players, and that means it works.



So protest with my my fellow Pro-Revengers. Protest by boring our opposition to tears. Because if we cannot enjoy the game and be satisfied with the state of gameplay, why should they be?:mad:

This protest shall be ongoing and set for no specific date. It will continue until Ubisoft as issued a statement to our satisfaction that they will either improve Revenge or revert their nerf entirely.

kweassa1917
04-20-2017, 07:31 AM
https://youtu.be/QNot4iC7K8s


:D

escacleo
04-20-2017, 07:46 AM
I'm for the nerf but it would be nice if the other gear stats didn't have 2 stats for revenge mode as if it was all they could come up with.

WheepingSong
04-20-2017, 07:52 AM
So as no doubt many of you have noticed, Revenge Mode was nerfed to not even a shadow of its former capabilities with this most recent patch v1.05.
The most glaring and severe consequence of this nerf being the prevailing use of ganking tactics in any game mode of 4v4. Players in groups no longer are mindful of how they swing their blade, as even if they push the outnumbered party into revenge, there will be no comeuppance for their indiscretion. No penalty for their dishonor. Nothing to stem the tide of poor gameplay.

With this in mind I propose a form of protest, to show Ubisoft and the community that we are no in favor of this change.


Since we cannot fight the gang banging cucklords head on anymore when they force an outnumbered fight, let us instead do as they say... let us flee.

My proposal is this: From this day onward; I encourage all players alienated, unsatisfied, and unhappy with this patch and its affect on gameplay to take up arms as fleet footed characters with maxed out sprinting speed. As Peacekeepers, Orochis, Berserkers, etc. I encourage you all; when your enemies show you dishonor and attempt to gank you, to simply flee. Flee, and flee, and flee. Outrun them, out pace them, and run out the clock as long and as many times as you possibly can.

Take away from them their joy so that too can be as dissatisfied with the state of the game as you are.


I've put it into practice myself, running out the clock, unable to be caught. It is very effective at gathering hate messages from opposing players, and that means it works.



So protest with my my fellow Pro-Revengers. Protest by boring our opposition to tears. Because if we cannot enjoy the game and be satisfied with the state of gameplay, why should they be?:mad:

This protest shall be ongoing and set for no specific date. It will continue until Ubisoft as issued a statement to our satisfaction that they will either improve Revenge or revert their nerf entirely.

This guy.....

The revenge nerf is the best thing that could have happned to the game. How do you even assume people do not like the change? Because 3 people including yourself whined about it on forums?

I am sick of these crybabys whining about no longer beeing able to run into groups of enemies, get revenge, and spam ZA.

Yes Rhodri331 you will now need some skill to prevail in a 1v2; 1v3 situation. Typical type of people who always want the easy way out.

Now get back into your corner and show us once more how salty you can be.
So annoying jeez.....

Alustar.
04-20-2017, 11:27 AM
This guy.....

The revenge nerf is the best thing that could have happned to the game. How do you even assume people do not like the change? Because 3 people including yourself whined about it on forums?

I am sick of these crybabys whining about no longer beeing able to run into groups of enemies, get revenge, and spam ZA.

Yes Rhodri331 you will now need some skill to prevail in a 1v2; 1v3 situation. Typical type of people who always want the easy way out.

Now get back into your corner and show us once more how salty you can be.
So annoying jeez.....

I've got several clips saved that showcase exactly how broken that system was. I'm one vid I take on 3 people effortlessly popping revenge twice back to back. Then take an arrow point blank from an orochi only to get ANOTHER revenge buff and two shot him.
That is not skill.

Gray360UK
04-20-2017, 12:36 PM
The Revenge nerf has levelled the playing field, and we have a game now that is more about the quality of the player, not the size of the Revenge stats on their gear.

No more can the bad wreck the good, just by being bad, by using the reward being bad got them - Revenge. For when you absolutely have to kill every mofo in the room, but you can't do it yourself. Thank God those days are gone.

Like Alustar, I have many many clips of the stuff I was able to pull off with Revenge. I have single handedly won Elimination and Skirmish matches, killing up to 6 enemies before the Victory screen. I have used it to win against superior odds over and over with no skill required on my part, just Revenge and unlimited Stamina. I also have one particularly spectacular clip of a Warlord getting it 8 times in 2 minutes with a 10 second duratiom each time, so basically perma-Revenge for 2 minutes during which he is immune to a team of 3 enemies bombarding him with heavy attacks. In yet another clip, I go to help a friend who is being ganked by 3 enemies, something which should be a good thing and the natural solution to being ganked, but of course as soon as I touched one of them, they got Revenge.

Revenge was very badly broken. It is perfect now. It won't win you a game single handed, but it might let you take someone down or escape when you are getting your arse kicked.

Anyone still trying to peddle the logic that when you are getting your arse kicked (you / your team is bad, your opponent(s) / their team is better) you should be able to enter a state of boosted attack and defence and kill all of them is just asking to be able to cheat their way to victory in Godmode.

SlashingElbow
04-20-2017, 01:02 PM
i still **** up 2-3 people not that hard with my warlord with revenge.. It is pretty fun to just leave the honor behind and gank the hsit out of people now though haha.. The revenge does not worry me at all so overhands all day

CandleInTheDark
04-20-2017, 01:54 PM
Pfft, I have minimum build and duration, by the time I get it, there is at least one that had better not be one of those knocked over if they don't want to see the respawn screen while I make my way out of the mess I or my teammates got myself into since that means max defence and attack to stab at someone on my way out. Speaking as someone the other team tried to focus, they found that it wasn't as easy as you are making out. But then I know my team pvp and how to not get into many of those situations to begin with.

Herbstlicht
04-20-2017, 01:58 PM
Love the new revenge. Have fast build but low attack and defence - so i only use it for parry and a few uninterruptible attacks - and this part still remains incredibly strong. So you still easily kill stupid people, specially with your parry knockdown, but you can't just mow down skilled adversaries any longer. It helps to stay alive though, very much so even.

So use it as intended: better odds for survival with an occasional win vs the gank team - it really is good the way it is now.

CandleInTheDark
04-20-2017, 02:28 PM
Love the new revenge. Have fast build but low attack and defence - so i only use it for parry and a few uninterruptible attacks - and this part still remains incredibly strong. So you still easily kill stupid people, specially with your parry knockdown, but you can't just mow down skilled adversaries any longer. It helps to stay alive though, very much so even.

So use it as intended: better odds for survival with an occasional win vs the gank team - it really is good the way it is now.

Seems we have opposite ways of using it to the same general effect. I generally find I survive well enough to get to revenge because I went with defence and stamina over attack (odd for a peacekeeper but I felt being a little less glass cannony would do better to get me chains or to defence and health boosts between fights and I have gone 17 and 1-3 in some fights) so I might be half or three quarters down by the time I get it but if I have been switching between targets, there is one other that is also around there and I suddenly have max attack which fi they are down from the activation, sucks to be them, but my main concern is generally get the hell out of there in the time the knockdown gives me. Since I have low base attack, the only real change for me is it might take a couple more blocks and I don't go to 200% defence which I didn't know I did to begin with for having both regular and revenge defence maxed but I never used it to stand there and spam in any case.

MumfordDaHound
04-20-2017, 02:48 PM
i still **** up 2-3 people not that hard with my warlord with revenge.. It is pretty fun to just leave the honor behind and gank the hsit out of people now though haha.. The revenge does not worry me at all so overhands all day

Thats a warlod thing... You're right its way easier.

Knight_Gregor
04-20-2017, 03:03 PM
I'm still of the opinion that it builds too quickly and needs a hard cool-down similar to feats.

CandleInTheDark
04-20-2017, 03:12 PM
I'm still of the opinion that it builds too quickly and needs a hard cool-down similar to feats.

I'd play without it, but I am enjoying it more in its current state as opposed to before at least. I don't use it as a crutch and now last man standing can't wipe out a whole team because one too many sneezed in his direction.

FredEx919
04-20-2017, 03:21 PM
I'm still of the opinion that it builds too quickly and needs a hard cool-down similar to feats.

This is something we're also looking at. We'll keep an eye on things and check the feedback from everyone, so be sure to leave any additional thoughts.

Gray360UK
04-20-2017, 04:02 PM
This is something we're also looking at. We'll keep an eye on things and check the feedback from everyone, so be sure to leave any additional thoughts.

You have it just right now in my opinion. Any weaker and it's going to be pointless, and make the 5 stats on our gear that relate to Revenge irrelevant. You might as well remove it altogether if you make it any weaker.

RatedChaotic
04-20-2017, 04:16 PM
The Revenge nerf has levelled the playing field, and we have a game now that is more about the quality of the player, not the size of the Revenge stats on their gear.

No more can the bad wreck the good, just by being bad, by using the reward being bad got them - Revenge. For when you absolutely have to kill every mofo in the room, but you can't do it yourself. Thank God those days are gone.

Like Alustar, I have many many clips of the stuff I was able to pull off with Revenge. I have single handedly won Elimination and Skirmish matches, killing up to 6 enemies before the Victory screen. I have used it to win against superior odds over and over with no skill required on my part, just Revenge and unlimited Stamina. I also have one particularly spectacular clip of a Warlord getting it 8 times in 2 minutes with a 10 second duratiom each time, so basically perma-Revenge for 2 minutes during which he is immune to a team of 3 enemies bombarding him with heavy attacks. In yet another clip, I go to help a friend who is being ganked by 3 enemies, something which should be a good thing and the natural solution to being ganked, but of course as soon as I touched one of them, they got Revenge.

Revenge was very badly broken. It is perfect now. It won't win you a game single handed, but it might let you take someone down or escape when you are getting your arse kicked.

Anyone still trying to peddle the logic that when you are getting your arse kicked (you / your team is bad, your opponent(s) / their team is better) you should be able to enter a state of boosted attack and defence and kill all of them is just asking to be able to cheat their way to victory in Godmode.

I'm proof of that. Was doing tests pre patch with my son and his friends. We did custom games to see how powerful revenge gear was. I was on my 90gs conq at that time and all their toons were gs 20 or so...Now I'm clearly not as good as them. But I could one shot every one of them. Nothings better than to get hate mail from your own child for one shotting him in For Honor. Ya I recorded it aswell lol.

Pre nerf revenge took away the need for skill. Now skill is needed more. Just how it should be.


So ya the nerf was needed. I think UBI did a fine job finding that sweet spot for that mechanic. And your post was spot on, Grey

Alustar.
04-20-2017, 04:49 PM
Seems we have opposite ways of using it to the same general effect. I generally find I survive well enough to get to revenge because I went with defence and stamina over attack (odd for a peacekeeper but I felt being a little less glass cannony would do better to get me chains or to defence and health boosts between fights and I have gone 17 and 1-3 in some fights) so I might be half or three quarters down by the time I get it but if I have been switching between targets, there is one other that is also around there and I suddenly have max attack which fi they are down from the activation, sucks to be them, but my main concern is generally get the hell out of there in the time the knockdown gives me. Since I have low base attack, the only real change for me is it might take a couple more blocks and I don't go to 200% defence which I didn't know I did to begin with for having both regular and revenge defence maxed but I never used it to stand there and spam in any case.

I sec similarly to you, I focus more on my own survivability as opposed to my ability to do raw damage. I'm still tinkering with the revenge gains to find a sweet spot but currently don't feel a big difference from before.
Mostly due to me being a 108 PK, that automatically means I'm getting focused before anyone else in my group.


You have it just right now in my opinion. Any weaker and it's going to be pointless, and make the 5 stats on our gear that relate to Revenge irrelevant. You might as well remove it altogether if you make it any weaker.

I agree here, I was first in favor of applying an internal copldown for revenge at first, but seeing this fix instead feels more natural. It fixed the problems of being the last man standing while not making revenge the viable offensive option it was.
Any more would hinder a players needlessly.

WoodDaGawd
04-20-2017, 04:50 PM
You got what you asked for with the continuous complaints, groans, and cries. Deal with it.

xLeapingLizardx
04-20-2017, 04:52 PM
I love how the OP thought he was about to rally the community to join his protest but it went totally opposite...

I agree with everyone, Revenge is now good where it is at.

And your protest is absolutely childish. Trust me, you aren't just getting your enemies mad, you are getting your teammates mad. You are little wasting everyone's time just because you now can't glow yellow 90% of a match...

CandleInTheDark
04-20-2017, 05:02 PM
I sec similarly to you, I focus more on my own survivability as opposed to my ability to do raw damage. I'm still tinkering with the revenge gains to find a sweet spot but currently don't feel a big difference from before.
Mostly due to me being a 108 PK, that automatically means I'm getting focused before anyone else in my group.


Yeah I know I am getting focussed. I went minimum gain, minimum duration, don't know if I am getting much from the other stats but eh, my aim is knock them down, if I am locked on someone with low health front dodge heavy, run clear. For me it was only ever a survival tool rather than sudden god mode.

Operch
04-20-2017, 06:19 PM
There's just no pleasing some people.

Muncho73
04-20-2017, 07:11 PM
The nerf of revenge is not a problem at all. It needed to happen and i'm surprised it wasn't cut back even more. I think its probably about right. Also anyone who plays and thinks others should have honor, now come on really, this is a game where we cut each others heads off. There will never be any honor just get used to it and kill people. The biggest issue and still the biggest issue is the Disconnects. I am completely frustrated that i cannot finish a simple game of dominion PvP. It is the only game mode that i truly enjoy and since 1.05 came out, I have not been able to get through one game without being kicked. Fix that and forget about the rest of the hsit already ubisoft. Don't need new executions or clothes just need to be able to finish a damn game.

SAVAGE_CABBAGE1
04-20-2017, 07:54 PM
I'm actually really happy with the nerf, I still 1vX easily, but now it requires focus and skill, or I will die.
The nerf made 1vX skillful, the way it should be.

Alustar.
04-20-2017, 08:36 PM
Yeah I know I am getting focussed. I went minimum gain, minimum duration, don't know if I am getting much from the other stats but eh, my aim is knock them down, if I am locked on someone with low health front dodge heavy, run clear. For me it was only ever a survival tool rather than sudden god mode.

Does the increase in throw raise the chances of causing your opponent to fall? I haven't noticed anything on that

CandleInTheDark
04-20-2017, 08:43 PM
Does the increase in throw raise the chances of causing your opponent to fall? I haven't noticed anything on that

I think it is just throw distance. I would have to try in brawl and in gear modes but I do the double stab kick into wall combo so knowing my ranges would be good.

kweassa1917
04-20-2017, 08:57 PM
I think it is just throw distance. I would have to try in brawl and in gear modes but I do the double stab kick into wall combo so knowing my ranges would be good.

Not a bad choice if you can use PK speed to disengage from outnumbered fights, create 2v1 scenarios for your teammates on demand, and work on 1v1 interception in Dominion. It's just that like you said, some stats are lackluster.

Let's hope they do something about some stuff like block damage, throw distance, etc..

Felis_Menari
04-20-2017, 08:59 PM
At a glance, my issue with the revenge nerf is the potential to be *WEAKER* once you pop revenge, if you have minimal revenge attack/defense. You should never be able to deal more or take less damage in a normal state, barring buffs/Debuff.

CandleInTheDark
04-20-2017, 09:10 PM
Not a bad choice if you can use PK speed to disengage from outnumbered fights, create 2v1 scenarios for your teammates on demand, and work on 1v1 interception in Dominion. It's just that like you said, some stats are lackluster.

Let's hope they do something about some stuff like block damage, throw distance, etc..

Yeah I knew I was going max speed, in dominion and skirmish it allows me to disengage at will like you say, I don't run in elimination when I am last but I do quite like the fact that no one can run from me. Debuff resistance helps me against nubushi and other peacekeepers,the others I don't really notice as much.

Alustar.
04-20-2017, 09:12 PM
At a glance, my issue with the revenge nerf is the potential to be *WEAKER* once you pop revenge, if you have minimal revenge attack/defense. You should never be able to deal more or take less damage in a normal state, barring buffs/Debuff.

My impression was that in revenge you don't stack your attack power. So the only way you'd really have less damage is if you have your damage stat maxed, in that case I don't know how far revenge would boost attack compared to the static buff, but in theory it should be on par at least.

Karma_Ghost
04-20-2017, 09:39 PM
Revenge was nerfed a little too hard. It was originally meant as a deterrent/counter to zerg tactics, but in its current form, revenge isn't a threat anymore. It was certainly overpowered, but cutting the gear contribution in half and preventing any bonus stacking was too much. Reducing the gain rate and revenge gear bonuses would have been enough.

Scaling the base effect to the number of enemies engaged would allow it to be fair in 1v1 or 1v2 without undermining its purpose.

zide-
04-20-2017, 09:48 PM
Well boohoo. Now revenge actually works more like it should which is HELPING YOU TO GET OUT OF AN UNEVEN FIGHT. Learn when to trigger it so that you knock as many enemies ganking you down as possible.

buhahh125
04-20-2017, 09:54 PM
I was on the side that it was nerfed too hard before even trying it out on the console. Now that I have tried it, I actually think they have done a great job with it. If they ever thought about increasing again I hope it is only by a hair because where it is at the moment does feel like an ok place.

D4rkgrizzly
04-20-2017, 09:59 PM
Revenge was over nerfed! Its now useless. Cannot run away because for the run speed nerf and cannot attack while being GB spammed. I'd recommend they make revenge stack on weapon damage/ defense and make the character immune to GB while in revenge mode.

buhahh125
04-20-2017, 10:00 PM
Revenge was over nerfed! Its now useless. Cannot run away because for the run speed nerf and cannot attack while being GB spammed. I'd recommend they make revenge stack on weapon damage/ defense and make the character immune to GB while in revenge mode.

Hit your revenge so that they fall down...then run? ;)

Alustar.
04-20-2017, 10:46 PM
Revenge was nerfed a little too hard. It was originally meant as a deterrent/counter to zerg tactics, but in its current form, revenge isn't a threat anymore. It was certainly overpowered, but cutting the gear contribution in half and preventing any bonus stacking was too much. Reducing the gain rate and revenge gear bonuses would have been enough.

Scaling the base effect to the number of enemies engaged would allow it to be fair in 1v1 or 1v2 without undermining its purpose.

Just got out of a skirmish and went 12-2, I've said numerous times I'm a far from a great or even good player. My average performance hasn't really been effected. And honestly my survivabilty hasn't changed. Just my ability to totally annihilate a group of player single handedly.

CandleInTheDark
04-20-2017, 10:50 PM
Revenge was over nerfed! Its now useless. Cannot run away because for the run speed nerf and cannot attack while being GB spammed. I'd recommend they make revenge stack on weapon damage/ defense and make the character immune to GB while in revenge mode.

O rly? Wish someone had told me that before I activated it with three around me, knocked down two, forward lunge stabbed one to death then ran past my teammates to pick up a shield boost, would have been good to know I was wasting my time successfully escaping from...oh no, wait, I was just using revenge as it was meant to be used..

SendRickPics
04-20-2017, 11:50 PM
I was just using revenge as it was meant to be used..

I love it when people try and make this statement as I've proven over and over again that Ubisoft intended for it to be the way it was prior to the nerf. Ubisoft has, since release, adopted a policy of pandering to forum whining.

Here is every reason why you are wrong.



https://youtu.be/QWvhaHAqu1Q
http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php...-a-buff-Forums

https://youtu.be/a3s_ukZce78
https://www.vg247.com/2017/01/30/the...or-honor-beta/

"The notion of what the game was envisioned as on paper is already at odds with how it’s panning out in reality; game designer Bio Jade has talked about changes to scoring in Dominion and the addition of the Revenge mechanic as a means to deal with feedback that there were “too many group fights, not enough duels.”


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNhGo4QDSG4

"The Revenge mechanic is a monument in itself to the harsh realities of re-balancing a game to account for berks. The newly added meter fills up when you block or take damage. When it’s full you can unleash it, knockback enemies, and gain a temporary buff to all of your stats.

It’s essentially a button you can press after you’ve been mercilessly wailed on that gives you a brief window to go mental and dole out some sweet justice. It had to be implemented out of necessity because getting ganged up on happened frequently enough to warrant the need for it. "



In short, Ubi made it that way to counter the relentless ganking, it did its job. Ubisoft not knowing how to handle a game like this, turns around and brings back ganking due to continuous forum whining.

CandleInTheDark
04-20-2017, 11:52 PM
And again, all you are telling me is that people were losing at team pvp because the other team were better at working as a team, they complained, they got revenge, bad players got rewarded for bad gameplay and thought this was normal and are now salty because when the real team pvp players called BS and ubisoft listened to them, the bad players lost their crutch.

Better teamwork should not be punished with an I win button being used against them.

SendRickPics
04-20-2017, 11:57 PM
And again, all you are telling me is that people were losing at team pvp because the other team were better at working as a team, they complained, they got revenge, bad players got rewarded for bad gameplay and thought this was normal and are now salty because when the real team pvp players called BS and ubisoft listened to them, the bad players lost their crutch.

Better teamwork should not be punished with an I win button being used against them.

"Team PvP" is just a euphemism for mindless ganking. Ganking takes less skill per individual. This is a fact that's been studied upon, it's called "Social Loafing" in that as numbers increase, the individual contribution towards the goal decreases.

In short, the group that gangs up to fight a single individual have and use less skill than the player fighting alone.
As Ubisoft said: “too many group fights, not enough duels.”


Better individual skill should not be punished when all the skill-less cucks want to gang bang.

It's not just brainless otherwise, it's supporting bad gameplay as the mechanics do not truly support or encourage fighting outnumbered without Revenge mode as the catalyst and equalizer.


"It’s essentially a button you can press after you’ve been mercilessly wailed on that gives you a brief window to go mental and dole out some sweet justice. It had to be implemented out of necessity because getting ganged up on happened frequently enough to warrant the need for it. " -Ubisoft Reps

CandleInTheDark
04-21-2017, 12:00 AM
Any game mode in the multiplayer section is a pvp setting. Any gamemode except the one that is 1v1 is also a team match. Therefore,unless you are in duel, which is what duel mode is for, you are in a team pvp, same as any other team multiplayer game out there. You can dress it up all you like but if you want a 1v1, that is what duel is for, everywhere else, the team that works better together wins.

We_Wuz_Kongz
04-21-2017, 12:04 AM
Sorry this is gonna sound mean, if you can't handle multiple opponents in this patch you were never any good to begin with. You need to go back to lab and get your reactions up to snuff. Plus, this is a team mode we're talking about. You need to either start playing with your team, get good, or go play duels. You know, the place where you're supposed to win all by yourself.

D4rkgrizzly
04-21-2017, 12:07 AM
Hit your revenge so that they fall down...then run? ;)

Only bad or new players carelessly attack when they can see you have revenge..... But if there bad just kill them, don't run.

SendRickPics
04-21-2017, 12:08 AM
everywhere else, the team that works better together wins.

And that's exactly what happened BEFORE the Revenge nerf. Do you know how often a single player could pull a win out of their *** consistently in a 4v1 situation using revenge mode? I can count on one hand how many times that's happened to myself.

Short of using a Warlord (Truly the most OP character in the game) or a Valkyrie (close second), or even a Warden (also close second) this didn't happen often and I'm sure Ubisoft has the numbers to show that single individuals rarely won 4v1 situations purely on a buffed revenge mode (excluding other contributing factors and variables).

The situations that likely had higher rates of victory when using revenge were 2v1 and 3v1 situations, or even 3v2 situations or 4v2 situations. Again, I wager Ubisoft has the numbers to support this stance.


So all that HAS changed is that Revenge mode is weaker and that Individual skill is being discarded in favor of numbers.



Sorry this is gonna sound mean, if you can't handle multiple opponents in this patch you were never any good to begin with. You need to go back to lab and get your reactions up to snuff. Plus, this is a team mode we're talking about. You need to either start playing with your team, get good, or go play duels. You know, the place where you're supposed to win all by yourself.

I fight with a team best I can, but PUGS are notorious for being incompetent in group work. I fight fine and dandy even outnumbered (unless crowd control cuckery is spammed). So your assumptions are failed. You look like an ***.

Manlorey
04-21-2017, 12:12 AM
"Team PvP" is just a euphemism for mindless ganking. Ganking takes less skill per individual. This is a fact that's been studied upon, it's called "Social Loafing" in that as numbers increase, the individual contribution towards the goal decreases.

In short, the group that gangs up to fight a single individual have and use less skill than the player fighting alone.
As Ubisoft said: “too many group fights, not enough duels.”


Better individual skill should not be punished when all the skill-less cucks want to gang bang.

It's not just brainless otherwise, it's supporting bad gameplay as the mechanics do not truly support or encourage fighting outnumbered without Revenge mode as the catalyst and equalizer.

Fully agree with you on that. I already said it before, but I certainly shall say it again - I do not understand people who think that ganking up equals, in their minds, high skill play. While failing at countering the old revenge which could be done when truly working together as a team.

D4rkgrizzly
04-21-2017, 12:13 AM
O rly? Wish someone had told me that before I activated it with three around me, knocked down two, forward lunge stabbed one to death then ran past my teammates to pick up a shield boost, would have been good to know I was wasting my time successfully escaping from...oh no, wait, I was just using revenge as it was meant to be used..

So one example of bad/ new player means everything is good, right? Nothing to see here. move along.......

SaphironX
04-21-2017, 12:15 AM
Ganking is no fun, true... but neither were characters who had 800% health over 6 revenges and took four skilled players to put down.

Revenge HAD to be nerfed. Simple as that.

CandleInTheDark
04-21-2017, 12:16 AM
And that's exactly what happened BEFORE the Revenge nerf. Do you know how often a single player could pull a win out of their *** consistently in a 4v1 situation using revenge mode? I can count on one hand how many times that's happened to myself.

And what makes you think, in a team game, that one player is supposed to beat four others? This is not Evolve where you start off alone against four and so have higher levels of power, you have three other people fighting alongside you and if you're 1v4 and the rest of your team is either dead or not doing anything productive, that doesn't mean the other team deserve to suddenly be at an overwhelming disadvantage because they were the better team. What you are describing wanting one person to beat four is Evolve, this is not that game.

SendRickPics
04-21-2017, 12:17 AM
Ganking is no fun, true... but neither were characters who had 800% health over 6 revenges and took four skilled players to put down.

Revenge HAD to be nerfed. Simple as that.

Ubisoft Disagreed

"It had to be implemented out of necessity because getting ganged up on happened frequently enough to warrant the need for it. " -Ubisoft Reps

Furthermore that's likely an issue with the characters in question that had high HP and were near impossible to take down. Warlord, Valkyrie, Conqueror being some of the biggest offenders.

CoyoteXStarrk
04-21-2017, 12:18 AM
I really enjoy how badly this thread backfired on the OP.


Instead of showing a united front against the nerf all you did was showing how wildly popular it was lol


That being said what everyone is saying is pretty much spot on. Revenge as a concept was not that broken. But it was the way that people were exploiting and abusing it that was the problem.


There were COUNTLESS players that relied ONLY on revenge to get their gear and then when they got it they would just start spamming Zone Attacks & heavies hoping to basically 1 shot or 2 shot the enemy rather than use any kind of actual strategy or tactic.


The nerfs will barely affect anyone who understands how the game properly. It will only force those who didn't to learn how.

SendRickPics
04-21-2017, 12:20 AM
And what makes you think, in a team game, that one player is supposed to beat four others? This is not Evolve where you start off alone against four and so have higher levels of power, you have three other people fighting alongside you and if you're 1v4 and the rest of your team is either dead or not doing anything productive, that doesn't mean the other team deserve to suddenly be at an overwhelming disadvantage because they were the better team. What you are describing wanting one person to beat four is Evolve, this is not that game.

Nobody here is mentioning Evolve other than you.

That being said, the 4 being mentioned ina 4v1 scenario were NOT at a "huge disadvantage" in fact they had the advantage of numbers. The problems arise when they cannot effectively coordinate their numbers to disrupt, disabled, crowd control, and kill their target. When the only thing a group of four does in a 4v1 scenario is mindlessly spam heavy attacks, they deserve to lose to the better swordsman.

Alustar.
04-21-2017, 12:21 AM
"Team PvP" is just a euphemism for mindless ganking. Ganking takes less skill per individual. This is a fact that's been studied upon, it's called "Social Loafing" in that as numbers increase, the individual contribution towards the goal decreases.

In short, the group that gangs up to fight a single individual have and use less skill than the player fighting alone.
As Ubisoft said: “too many group fights, not enough duels.”


Better individual skill should not be punished when all the skill-less cucks want to gang bang.

It's not just brainless otherwise, it's supporting bad gameplay as the mechanics do not truly support or encourage fighting outnumbered without Revenge mode as the catalyst and equalizer.


"It’s essentially a button you can press after you’ve been mercilessly wailed on that gives you a brief window to go mental and dole out some sweet justice. It had to be implemented out of necessity because getting ganged up on happened frequently enough to warrant the need for it. " -Ubisoft Reps

I just want to point out that this person has, on more than one occasion, stated they believe the dev team are full of incompetent morons who don't know what they are doing. Now you want to quote them at their words when it supports your opinion.

And that bit you've said about not being able to wipe an entire group of four people by manipulating the old revenge stats? I have proof that's wrong. And I'm a garbage player.

CoyoteXStarrk
04-21-2017, 12:21 AM
I really enjoy how badly this thread backfired on the OP.


Instead of showing a united front against the nerf all you did was showing how wildly popular it was lol


That being said what everyone is saying is pretty much spot on. Revenge as a concept was not that broken. But it was the way that people were exploiting and abusing it that was the problem.


There were COUNTLESS players that relied ONLY on revenge to get their gear and then when they got it they would just start spamming Zone Attacks & heavies hoping to basically 1 shot or 2 shot the enemy rather than use any kind of actual strategy or tactic.


The nerfs will barely affect anyone who understands how the game properly. It will only force those who didn't to learn how to play properly and that needed to happen anyway.

SendRickPics
04-21-2017, 12:22 AM
And what makes you think, in a team game, that one player is supposed to beat four others? This is not Evolve where you start off alone against four and so have higher levels of power, you have three other people fighting alongside you and if you're 1v4 and the rest of your team is either dead or not doing anything productive, that doesn't mean the other team deserve to suddenly be at an overwhelming disadvantage because they were the better team. What you are describing wanting one person to beat four is Evolve, this is not that game.

Nobody here is mentioning Evolve other than you.

That being said, the 4 being mentioned in a 4v1 scenario were NOT at a "huge disadvantage" in fact they had the advantage of numbers. The problems arise when they cannot effectively coordinate their numbers to disrupt, disabled, crowd control, and kill their target. When the only thing a group of four does in a 4v1 scenario is mindlessly spam heavy attacks, they deserve to lose to the better swordsman.

CoyoteXStarrk
04-21-2017, 12:22 AM
I really enjoy how badly this thread backfired on the OP.


Instead of showing a united front against the nerf all you did was showing how wildly popular it was lol


That being said what everyone is saying is pretty much spot on. Revenge as a concept was not that broken. But it was the way that people were exploiting and abusing it that was the problem.


There were COUNTLESS players that relied ONLY on revenge to get their gear and then when they got it they would just start spamming Zone Attacks & heavies hoping to basically 1 shot or 2 shot the enemy rather than use any kind of actual strategy or tactic.


The nerfs will barely affect anyone who understands how the game properly. It will only force those who didn't to learn how to play properly and that needed to happen anyway.

SendRickPics
04-21-2017, 12:25 AM
I really enjoy how badly this thread backfired on the OP.
Instead of showing a united front against the nerf all you did was showing how wildly popular it was lol

Argumentum ad Populum. Logical Fallacy that suggests that simply because the majority (or perceived majority) holds a common claim that it must indeed be true.

There was a time where it was popular belief that magic and witches existed and people were burned at the stake, but simply because the majority thought it to be true, surely they were right hm?

xLeapingLizardx
04-21-2017, 12:31 AM
Argumentum ad Populum. Logical Fallacy that suggests that simply because the majority (or perceived majority) holds a common claim that it must indeed be true.

There was a time where it was popular belief that magic and witches existed and people were burned at the stake, but simply because the majority thought it to be true, surely they were right hm?
Uhm no I think we are just talking about how you are like "we" and "protest with me fellow pro revengers" and nobody or almost nobody (can't remember all of the posts in the thread) supported your protest. Quite funny to watch honestly...

SendRickPics
04-21-2017, 12:34 AM
Uhm no I think we are just talking about how you are like "we" and "protest with me fellow pro revengers" and nobody or almost nobody (can't remember all of the posts in the thread) supported your protest. Quite funny to watch honestly...

Been less than 24 hours since the post went up and the ones who've jumped into the thread so far are the Anti-Revenge crowd stylizing themselves as "the majority", when they are not.

There are several posts in this thread already who are in favor of a buffed revenge, and if you took the time to read it, you'd see that. There are several threads based on the same topic.

CoyoteXStarrk
04-21-2017, 12:35 AM
Argumentum ad Populum. Logical Fallacy that suggests that simply because the majority (or perceived majority) holds a common claim that it must indeed be true.

There was a time where it was popular belief that magic and witches existed and people were burned at the stake, but simply because the majority thought it to be true, surely they were right hm?

Go through the front page of threads and page 2 even.

The majority of the vocal community have no issues with the changes. So instead of trying to sound super clever by using big words why don't you just counter the point I made about Revenge being widely abused and exploited that led to the change in the first place.


Uhm no I think we are just talking about how you are like "we" and "protest with me fellow pro revengers" and nobody or almost nobody (can't remember all of the posts in the thread) supported your protest. Quite funny to watch honestly...

See this guy gets it.

SendRickPics
04-21-2017, 12:43 AM
Go through the front page of threads and page 2 even.

The majority of the vocal community have no issues with the changes. So instead of trying to sound super clever by using big words why don't you just counter the point I made about Revenge being widely abused and exploited that led to the change in the first place.

I already explained and countered your point. It's a logical fallacy. A logical fallacy is an error in reasoning that renders an argument invalid.

The vocal community is already within the minority of players, further dividing that minority into sub-groups such as Pro-Revenge, Anti-Revenge, Pro-Rework, etc. etc. As well as those on the forums who cared not to post at all regardless of whether or not they agree or disagree shows that only a vocal group has chosen to crash down on nay-sayers. This is evident in many threads that have popped up saying that the Revenge Nerf was too much. These threads have been cropping up since v 1.05 released on PC and are further cropping up since it's release on consoles.


This shows that the changes aren't unanimously agreed upon and certainly aren't held in a positive light by any "majority" of the community.



Oh and to conclude, I AM clever, my use of "big words" is so that there is no mistaking my meaning. It's how people clearly and concisely communicate. I'm not Trump with the vocabulary index of a 3rd grade elementary student.

In short-


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qB2bWfjks3o

Varakharne
04-21-2017, 12:56 AM
Is this how things are going to be with this new breed of millennials ? When something does go your way or something isnt what you want it to be you are going to boycott,protest everything ? These actions are supposed to be reserved for the most intolerant of actions. Now a days you people cry wolf on literally everything, its pathetic. How can anyone take something like a protest serious anymore when its the go to move for younger people who cant handle adversity or things not turning out as they think it should .I really lament for the future , I really do . Back when people had somewhat of a decent moral compass, protest were only used to negotiate pay wages, or injustices not a video game update or a sequence of in game changes made to a video game. You people really come across as unhinged, to the very definition of the word. Its one thing to decide you dont want to pay for a product anymore but to yell boycott and protest at everything really diminishes the validity of said actions. Time to grow up young ones, the world isnt perfect and thing will rarely go exactly how you want them.

http://www.wordstream.com/images/marketing-to-millennials-meme

bmason1000
04-21-2017, 01:02 AM
Argumentum ad Populum. Logical Fallacy that suggests that simply because the majority (or perceived majority) holds a common claim that it must indeed be true.

There was a time where it was popular belief that magic and witches existed and people were burned at the stake, but simply because the majority thought it to be true, surely they were right hm?

Absolutely they were right. Witches are a common threat, even today. However, coyote here isn't saying "all these people are correct," what he's saying is "a lot of people disagree with you." Which I believe this thread is evidence of. A large number of people here are voicing their disagreement.

CoyoteXStarrk
04-21-2017, 01:03 AM
I already explained and countered your point. It's a logical fallacy. A logical fallacy is an error in reasoning that renders an argument invalid.

The vocal community is already within the minority of players, further dividing that minority into sub-groups such as Pro-Revenge, Anti-Revenge, Pro-Rework, etc. etc. As well as those on the forums who cared not to post at all regardless of whether or not they agree or disagree shows that only a vocal group has chosen to crash down on nay-sayers. This is evident in many threads that have popped up saying that the Revenge Nerf was too much. These threads have been cropping up since v 1.05 released on PC and are further cropping up since it's release on consoles.


This shows that the changes aren't unanimously agreed upon and certainly aren't held in a positive light by any "majority" of the community.



Oh and to conclude, I AM clever, my use of "big words" is so that there is no mistaking my meaning. It's how people clearly and concisely communicate. I'm not Trump with the vocabulary index of a 3rd grade elementary student.


I like how you missed my point entirely and once again tried to sound edgy and clever lol


Let me be more blunt so you can comprehend what I am saying.


Revenge was nerfed because it was being abused and exploited.


Counter that point.

bmason1000
04-21-2017, 01:07 AM
I like how you missed my point entirely and once again tried to sound edgy and clever lol


Let me be more blunt so you can comprehend what I am saying.


Revenge was nerfed because it was being abused and exploited.


Counter that point.

Argumentum ad mic drop.

CoyoteXStarrk
04-21-2017, 01:13 AM
Also as for whether or not the "Majority" of people support or hate the nerfs is meaningless. We can debate whether or not the majority does support it or not, but seeing as neither of us have any statistical information to back up our claim we are forced to tally the information we CAN quantify. Like the posts in this thread for example. The majority of which support the changes.


If you ask people what they want most of COURSE they would ask for buffs, win buttons etc etc. Its the job of the Developer to do whats in the best interest for the game and its balance even if that means making some people mad.


What the majority wants isn't always whats best. The fact is the Devs looked at what was happening and what the community itself was saying they came to the conclusion that the game as it stood was unbalanced and favored those who spammed Revenge.


Things will not be going back to the way they were that much is certain. At best what you people can hope for is that Revenge gets adjusted again somewhere down the line, but I wouldn't hold your breath.

HarambeVendetta
04-21-2017, 01:45 AM
Ah another revenge cheeser thread, asking for it to come back?
Let me just rate it down,and say no.

Revenge ruined the game, it was for no skill players, who loved cheesing and having 2 hit kills. Thank god that it's gone now, those cheesers must adapt and learn to play or find another game, whatever floats their boats. I returned recently and the game is as enjoyable as it was in the beta, we don't need those exploiting crap back in the game. It almost killed it.

So LETS BE THANKFUL for the revenge nerf. It was the best patch yet.

sgtpickles
04-21-2017, 02:02 AM
At a glance, my issue with the revenge nerf is the potential to be *WEAKER* once you pop revenge, if you have minimal revenge attack/defense. You should never be able to deal more or take less damage in a normal state, barring buffs/Debuff.

This. Its best use right now is a deterrent to spammers. It's useless to actually pop it unless you have a spammable knockdown like Warlord or run out of stamina. Just let it sit there and let them be paranoid about the parry knockdown.

teksuo1
04-21-2017, 02:54 AM
You have it just right now in my opinion. Any weaker and it's going to be pointless, and make the 5 stats on our gear that relate to Revenge irrelevant. You might as well remove it altogether if you make it any weaker.

it already feels pointless to me.
i'm testing out throw distance, cooldown reduction and debuff resistance on my berserker and i must say it feels a lot more useful than revenge as it is.
The revenge is just for the show (initial knockdown and potentially making opponent nervous) with this build.

i feel bad for the classes that don't have as many useful non-passive feats.
On berserker it's really satisfying though.



They should change stats altogether ; 5 stats that are better left ignored... questionable design imo.

JayyRupp
04-21-2017, 03:07 AM
Umm no? Lol @ bad players relying on bad mechanics. Love it.

AmericanNinja3
04-21-2017, 03:08 AM
:D Hilarious

FledgeSRondo
04-21-2017, 03:12 AM
It's only been a day and I've already encountered this issue. Revenge no longer gives an outnumbered remaining player any reasonable chance or incentive to stand their ground and fight, encouraging a different survival strategy: running. Just, running. Either to fish for environment gimps or run out the clock. In this regard, heroes with faster sprints like PK now have a much greater advantage over slower ones who can't escape as quickly, and an even greater advantage if they're matched against slower sprinting heroes/builds.

I've already had multiple matches where my remaining teammates are unable to chase down the last enemy player literally "running" down the clock, and on some wider maps with lots of open areas and escape routes it's depressing to watch teammates simply unable to catch up to or corner the opponent. I was in an Elimination match that actually timed out on two rounds, not because of intense nail-biting edge-of-your-seat fighting, but because of continuous running and chasing. Not exactly a thrilling way to end matches.

And in the case you're the only skilled player matched with a team of lower-level players in Elimination, every round you'll survive your first opponent only to face an insurmountable 3v1 gankfest. Before Revenge would give you a chance to turn the tides if your teammates dropped the ball, but now bad match-making is like a death sentence. If you're the kind of good sport that won't disconnect out of respect for the group's play quality, you're practically guaranteed a bad time until the match is over.

Revenge was admittedly pretty OP previously, but at least it encouraged fighting in order to finish a round and keep some exciting suspense over the match outcome, instead of a one-sided perfunctory gankfest on one end or a dragged out chase on the other. What's more, at least in the case of match ends, Revenge genuinely encouraged skill-based dueling, as enemy players would refrain from ganging up in order to prevent Revenge from being incurred and risking defeat, and it was exciting to some extent to play against higher level players who would prove challenging instead of simply ganking them under the rug. It is more realistic, true, but there's less suspense and tension in some respects. I can see how in modes like Dominion the number advantages can play to a well-coordinated team's favor, but on the other hand it seems to discourage duel-based skill and emphasize team-based skill, which is difficult to manage if you don't have a microphone or play on console with limited team messages. Previously a player could focus on beating one opponent at a time with the threat of Revenge keeping others at bay, but now fights are constantly interrupted. I've seen players now gang up with one being the dedicated guard-breaker and the other being the dedicated attacker, it's a simple matter of guard-breaking then attacking, rinsing and repeating until the opponent is dead with little in the way to discourage it. Revenge is no longer a sufficient deterrent to this playstyle.

It's interesting how a small change to some statistics can have such a large impact on the meta, and it doesn't seem like many players here have encountered these issues yet. I'm not sure how to resolve these new kinks, not sure if it's just an issue with the way certain modes are designed or how matchmaking is set up. I know Revenge needed a nerf somehow, but these are some of the side effects I've seen that I've found kind of annoying.

JayyRupp
04-21-2017, 03:16 AM
Duel 4 life brooo.

CoyoteXStarrk
04-21-2017, 03:52 AM
It's only been a day and I've already encountered this issue. Revenge no longer gives an outnumbered remaining player any reasonable chance or incentive to stand their ground and fight, encouraging a different survival strategy: running. Just, running. Either to fish for environment gimps or run out the clock. In this regard, heroes with faster sprints like PK now have a much greater advantage over slower ones who can't escape as quickly, and an even greater advantage if they're matched against slower sprinting heroes/builds.

I've already had multiple matches where my remaining teammates are unable to chase down the last enemy player literally "running" down the clock, and on some wider maps with lots of open areas and escape routes it's depressing to watch teammates simply unable to catch up to or corner the opponent. I was in an Elimination match that actually timed out on two rounds, not because of intense nail-biting edge-of-your-seat fighting, but because of continuous running and chasing. Not exactly a thrilling way to end matches.

And in the case you're the only skilled player matched with a team of lower-level players in Elimination, every round you'll survive your first opponent only to face an insurmountable 3v1 gankfest. Before Revenge would give you a chance to turn the tides if your teammates dropped the ball, but now bad match-making is like a death sentence. If you're the kind of good sport that won't disconnect out of respect for the group's play quality, you're practically guaranteed a bad time until the match is over.

Revenge was admittedly pretty OP previously, but at least it encouraged fighting in order to finish a round and keep some exciting suspense over the match outcome, instead of a one-sided perfunctory gankfest on one end or a dragged out chase on the other. What's more, at least in the case of match ends, Revenge genuinely encouraged skill-based dueling, as enemy players would refrain from ganging up in order to prevent Revenge from being incurred and risking defeat, and it was exciting to some extent to play against higher level players who would prove challenging instead of simply ganking them under the rug. It is more realistic, true, but there's less suspense and tension in some respects. I can see how in modes like Dominion the number advantages can play to a well-coordinated team's favor, but on the other hand it seems to discourage duel-based skill and emphasize team-based skill, which is difficult to manage if you don't have a microphone or play on console with limited team messages. Previously a player could focus on beating one opponent at a time with the threat of Revenge keeping others at bay, but now fights are constantly interrupted. I've seen players now gang up with one being the dedicated guard-breaker and the other being the dedicated attacker, it's a simple matter of guard-breaking then attacking, rinsing and repeating until the opponent is dead with little in the way to discourage it. Revenge is no longer a sufficient deterrent to this playstyle.

It's interesting how a small change to some statistics can have such a large impact on the meta, and it doesn't seem like many players here have encountered these issues yet. I'm not sure how to resolve these new kinks, not sure if it's just an issue with the way certain modes are designed or how matchmaking is set up. I know Revenge needed a nerf somehow, but these are some of the side effects I've seen that I've found kind of annoying.

That was alot of text to still end up being wrong.


Revenge gives PLENTY of chance to SKILLED players. The only people complaining are the people who got revenge and then proceeded to spam the same moves and got kills. Now they are mad because they actually have to DO STUFF in order to get kills.

CandleInTheDark
04-21-2017, 03:58 AM
If you think people didn't run before the revenge nerf, I can tell you stories about three of us chasing an orochi several circuits of the map before we finally caught the git.

FledgeSRondo
04-21-2017, 04:23 AM
I'm not saying that people didn't run before the nerf. I'm saying that running is now the only legitimate option for anyone in the position of being outnumbered, as standing your ground is no longer viable given there are no deterrents to discourage people teaming up on you.


That was alot of text to still end up being wrong.

Revenge gives PLENTY of chance to SKILLED players. The only people complaining are the people who got revenge and then proceeded to spam the same moves and got kills. Now they are mad because they actually have to DO STUFF in order to get kills.

I already agreed that Revenge needed a nerf, but I'm making honest assessments about negative side effects of these changes, which do exist. Dismissing my points out of hand for not jumping on the bandwagon and lumping me together with others who complain is a hasty generalization. I'm not sure if you could call me "skilled", but I am a 108GS Rep 21 Warden with over 12 whole days of total playtime and a 2.28 KDA 70.75% W/L, (which is probably lower than it should be, since I occasionally like to help other players fulfill their "Revive" contract orders by intentionally throwing myself off bridges through entire matches). I've already won 3v1 matches even with these nerfs and with a non-Revenge build, I'm just saying there are side effects worth consideration.

HumoLoco
04-21-2017, 04:25 AM
Revenge was one of utterly useless. I like the nerfed Revenge.

xLeapingLizardx
04-21-2017, 05:09 AM
Revenge was admittedly pretty OP previously, but at least it encouraged fighting in order to finish a round and keep some exciting suspense over the match outcome, instead of a one-sided perfunctory gankfest on one end or a dragged out chase on the other. What's more, at least in the case of match ends, Revenge genuinely encouraged skill-based dueling, as enemy players would refrain from ganging up in order to prevent Revenge from being incurred and risking defeat, and it was exciting to some extent to play against higher level players who would prove challenging instead of simply ganking them under the rug. It is more realistic, true, but there's less suspense and tension in some respects. I can see how in modes like Dominion the number advantages can play to a well-coordinated team's favor, but on the other hand it seems to discourage duel-based skill and emphasize team-based skill, which is difficult to manage if you don't have a microphone or play on console with limited team messages. Previously a player could focus on beating one opponent at a time with the threat of Revenge keeping others at bay, but now fights are constantly interrupted. I've seen players now gang up with one being the dedicated guard-breaker and the other being the dedicated attacker, it's a simple matter of guard-breaking then attacking, rinsing and repeating until the opponent is dead with little in the way to discourage it. Revenge is no longer a sufficient deterrent to this playstyle.

In my opinion, the "People didn't gank in order to avoid revenge trigger" argument is somewhat invalid. Too many times than I can count people have gotten revenge in our Elimination, beginning of the round, 1v1 fight (some with 108 gear some with average gear). So the way I saw it someone with revenge 108 gear was likely to get revenge no matter the circumstances....


I'm not saying that people didn't run before the nerf. I'm saying that running is now the only legitimate option for anyone in the position of being outnumbered, as standing your ground is no longer viable given there are no deterrents to discourage people teaming up on you.

If you are talking just general outnumbering, yeah you need to run and give them the objective or run to your teammates to get some help etc... Or just try your hand at taking them on.

If you are talking last one alive and the person is going to lose from running the clock down, then that isn't a "legitimate option"... The person is going to lose anyway...
That is just a different problem that needs to be looked at all together separately from revenge...

WheepingSong
04-21-2017, 08:22 AM
I like how you missed my point entirely and once again tried to sound edgy and clever lol


Let me be more blunt so you can comprehend what I am saying.


Revenge was nerfed because it was being abused and exploited.


Counter that point.

Been following this argument and I didn't want to be the guy but It's funny to see how Rhodri331 hasn't replied...Guess that point can't be countered eh? Although I've had some disagreements with Coyote in different threads, the statements he has made so far absolutley nail it.

Oh yes, regarding the comment Rhodri made about the "anti-revenge people are not the majority": This thread now has 78 posts and a LOT more people have stated that the revenge nerf is a good thing, I think we can legitimately say that this is a clear indication that the majority is actually happy with the nerf.

How do you think statistics and prognosis are made? Exactly through questioning a handfull of people in order to get an indication on whether people generally agree or disagree.

SendRickPics
04-21-2017, 08:31 AM
Revenge was nerfed because it was being abused and exploited.

Counter that point.
I already did earlier.
It was buffed to counter ganking. Which is now being abused and exploited.

Furthermore that's less a "point" and more a statement of an opinion based on a negative bias. What you perceive as "abuse and exploitation" was to the perception of others "fair use of game mechanics".

Counter that point? Or perhaps this pissing match that you're trying to get into is done.



Been following this argument and I didn't want to be the guy but It's funny to see how Rhodri331 hasn't replied...Guess that point can't be countered eh?

Read the above, oh and by the way you can-


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-omR1rXcPrE



Oh yes, regarding the comment Rhodri made about the "anti-revenge people are not the majority": This thread now has 78 posts and a LOT more people have stated that the revenge nerf is a good thing, I think we can legitimately say that this is a clear indication that the majority is actually happy with the nerf.

I've already mentioned the various parties who either have not responded, cannot respond, care not to respond, etc. If Forum users are a minority of an overall community, then a sub-division of that minority is in itself a minority, no matter how loud their presence on the forums.

Even if they were somehow a "majority", Argumentum ad Populum does not make for a sound or reasonable argument.


How do you think statistics and prognosis are made? Exactly through questioning a handfull of people in order to get an indication on whether people generally agree or disagree. By using an extremely large sample size, and a simple statistic is worthless without comparing and contrasting to other variables, otherwise you're just taking in a number.

Please tell me you don't make your living as an analyst, because I'd hate to be the one to tell you that you must suck at your job if I needed to explain that.

Robert223333
04-21-2017, 08:31 AM
I played a couple games after the patch and don'T see a problem. Things got a lot better than before the nerf Imo, now people actually need to stick together and work as a team in order to win just like in a real fight to the death.

If you find yourself in a 1 v 4 situation and can't escape it should mean guaranteed death, which is the case now. Good stuff, and I enjoy the game a lot more without the OP revenge mode.

Specialkha
04-21-2017, 08:37 AM
I already did earlier.
It was buffed to counter ganking. Which is now being abused and exploited.

Counter that point? Or perhaps this pissing match that you're trying to get into is done.

Easy. Where is your team? If you are getting ganked, your team is either dead or capping others points (for dominion), or coming to your help (thus revenge will help to hold until they come as it was designed for that).

WheepingSong
04-21-2017, 08:39 AM
I already did earlier.
It was buffed to counter ganking. Which is now being abused and exploited.

Counter that point? Or perhaps this pissing match that you're trying to get into is done.

As already stated multiple times by other people.

If you get ganked due to not having your preciouse revenge then you just need to step up your game. It's a l2p issue. You are so used to spam down people with revenge that you do not consider any kind of tactics when facing multiple opponents.

To be more clear hence you seem to be having trouble understanding people: Git gud WITHOUT your win-button.

SendRickPics
04-21-2017, 08:43 AM
(thus revenge will help to hold until they come as it was designed for that).

You obviously have no reading comprehension, as my earlier posts in this thread have already shown Ubisoft DESIGNED Revenge mode to be the moment you dish out payback, not meekly "survive" until reinforcements (will never) arrive, or flee like a *****.

It was designed to be the anti-thesis for ganking. It was specifically designed with the intent of forcing players to maintain honor on the battlefield.

Here is every reason why you are wrong.



https://youtu.be/QWvhaHAqu1Q
http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php...-a-buff-Forums

https://youtu.be/a3s_ukZce78
https://www.vg247.com/2017/01/30/the...or-honor-beta/

"The notion of what the game was envisioned as on paper is already at odds with how it’s panning out in reality; game designer Bio Jade has talked about changes to scoring in Dominion and the addition of the Revenge mechanic as a means to deal with feedback that there were “too many group fights, not enough duels.”


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNhGo4QDSG4

"The Revenge mechanic is a monument in itself to the harsh realities of re-balancing a game to account for berks. The newly added meter fills up when you block or take damage. When it’s full you can unleash it, knockback enemies, and gain a temporary buff to all of your stats.

It’s essentially a button you can press after you’ve been mercilessly wailed on that gives you a brief window to go mental and dole out some sweet justice. It had to be implemented out of necessity because getting ganged up on happened frequently enough to warrant the need for it. "



In short, Ubi made it that way to counter the relentless ganking, it did its job. Ubisoft not knowing how to handle a game like this, turns around and brings back ganking due to continuous forum whining.

SendRickPics
04-21-2017, 08:44 AM
How many time do I have to copy paste this before people stop asserting that Revenge mode was designed for anything other than REVENGE?

SendRickPics
04-21-2017, 08:46 AM
As already stated multiple times by other people.

If you get ganked due to not having your preciouse revenge then you just need to step up your game. It's a l2p issue. You are so used to spam down people with revenge that you do not consider any kind of tactics when facing multiple opponents.

To be more clear hence you seem to be having trouble understanding people: Git gud WITHOUT your win-button.

and thus defeated, he (WheepingSong) retreats into Argumentum ad Hominem and baseless character attacks, mixed with poor attempts at trolling.

You sir need to get better at debating.

WheepingSong
04-21-2017, 08:51 AM
In short, Ubi made it that way to counter the relentless ganking, it did its job. Ubisoft not knowing how to handle a game like this, turns around and brings back ganking due to continuous forum whining.

And that is exactly how it is working right now. I personally still come out ontop when having a 2v1 or even 3v1 (sometimes) and I'm garbage. I also see other players do the same.

What are you still trying to prove? That you need some practice when facing 1vX siutations?

WheepingSong
04-21-2017, 08:57 AM
and thus defeated, he (WheepingSong) retreats into Argumentum ad Hominem and baseless character attacks, mixed with poor attempts at trolling.

You sir need to get better at debating.

And you sir need to start replying properly to other peoples arguments.

Also, start talking like a human beeing of the 21st century. Your latin is not making you look smart in any kind of way....and yes, before you even go there, I partially studied latin.

I rest my case. No point in beating a dead horse and arguing any further with you.

Joseph_2017
04-21-2017, 09:01 AM
Revenge is perfectly fine, I literally just dropped 4 guys not bots with 1/18 Nobushi even though I died from bleeding out after. There's enough damage to get the job done. 😏

WheepingSong
04-21-2017, 09:06 AM
Revenge is perfectly fine, I literally just dropped 4 guys not bots with 1/18 Nobushi even though I died from bleeding out after. There's enough damage to get the job done. ��

Thank you.

Point proven once more. I'm out.

Gray360UK
04-21-2017, 09:38 AM
In short, Ubi made it that way to counter the relentless ganking, it did its job. Ubisoft not knowing how to handle a game like this, turns around and brings back ganking due to continuous forum whining.

That was how they intended it to be used in an ideal world, the kind of ideal world that only exists until you add players into the mix. Then it was being used to solo entire enemy teams, to become invulnerable for 2 minutes, to hold zones against superior odds, to gank a target safe in the knowledge that if anyone comes to that targets aid, you will instantly gain Revenge and two-shot the original target and his ally. I have seen and done all this and more. I find it hard to believe you haven't.

Frappenstain
04-21-2017, 10:01 AM
https://youtu.be/QNot4iC7K8s


:D

Thank you, just lost it at the office.... Looked like a total freak :D

kweassa1917
04-21-2017, 10:07 AM
I have seen and done all this and more. I find it hard to believe you haven't.

Oh he remembers it alright. That's why he's clinging to that dead argument every time someone opens up a revenge thread.

Simply means he enjoys that imbalance in the first place,

vgrimr_J
04-21-2017, 10:12 AM
lmao you guys wanna promote ganks now? yes please water this game down even more.

Joseph_2017
04-21-2017, 10:23 AM
lmao you guys wanna promote ganks now? yes please water this game down even more.

The only thing it watered down was the unskilled. Sorry you guys cannot pop revenge on a blow, knock enemy down and one hit kill them. That was weak af.

Alustar.
04-21-2017, 10:35 AM
You obviously have no reading comprehension, as my earlier posts in this thread have already shown Ubisoft DESIGNED Revenge mode to be the moment you dish out payback, not meekly "survive" until reinforcements (will never) arrive, or flee like a *****.

It was designed to be the anti-thesis for ganking. It was specifically designed with the intent of forcing players to maintain honor on the battlefield.

Here is every reason why you are wrong.



https://youtu.be/QWvhaHAqu1Q
http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php...-a-buff-Forums

https://youtu.be/a3s_ukZce78
https://www.vg247.com/2017/01/30/the...or-honor-beta/

"The notion of what the game was envisioned as on paper is already at odds with how it’s panning out in reality; game designer Bio Jade has talked about changes to scoring in Dominion and the addition of the Revenge mechanic as a means to deal with feedback that there were “too many group fights, not enough duels.”


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNhGo4QDSG4

"The Revenge mechanic is a monument in itself to the harsh realities of re-balancing a game to account for berks. The newly added meter fills up when you block or take damage. When it’s full you can unleash it, knockback enemies, and gain a temporary buff to all of your stats.

It’s essentially a button you can press after you’ve been mercilessly wailed on that gives you a brief window to go mental and dole out some sweet justice. It had to be implemented out of necessity because getting ganged up on happened frequently enough to warrant the need for it. "



In short, Ubi made it that way to counter the relentless ganking, it did its job. Ubisoft not knowing how to handle a game like this, turns around and brings back ganking due to continuous forum whining.

So we are all on the same page (and because inconsistencies bother me) Rhodri has, on numerous occasions, equated the devs incompetent to morons who don't know what they are doing. Then turns right around, preaching their words now that it fits his rhetoric. If you are going to argue period. Be consistent. That's the foundation to any good debate.
Consistency.
Of which you possess none.

(Inb4obligatorylatinphraseabouthowthispostosinvali dbecauseQQ)

kweassa1917
04-21-2017, 11:08 AM
...does the guy ever realize time flows into only one direction? Every time he confronts the the factor behind why revenge was changed he regresses back to alpha. *sigh*

Views on design points, intents change over time. Many of the "original ideas" game developers have are tried, tested, and then evolved.


Yes, the proto-human species all came from Africa. Doesn't mean we have to go back there. :rolleyes:

SendRickPics
04-21-2017, 08:45 PM
For the record, I've noted at least 15 different threads from people who are against the revenge nerf.


So we are all on the same page (and because inconsistencies bother me) Rhodri has, on numerous occasions, equated the devs incompetent to morons who don't know what they are doing. Then turns right around, preaching their words now that it fits his rhetoric. If you are going to argue period. Be consistent. That's the foundation to any good debate.
Consistency.
Of which you possess none.

(Inb4obligatorylatinphraseabouthowthispostosinvali dbecauseQQ)


Oh it fits my narrative perfectly actually. It shows that the Devs themselves lack consistency and arguably have NO IDEA what they are doing. It shows that they are just playing the game of placate the forum whiners.

By their own words Revenge was buffed to deal with ganking and to promote more honorable 1v1 - 2v1 engagements.

They have since done an about face on this simply because the anti-revenge gang banging ganker cucks didn't want to actually think, they wanted to charge in whilst nut-cupping each other and hack n slash anyone in their way to death for an arguably undeserved win.


At this point in time, I'd almost equate the consistency and quality of Ubisofts development work with that of Star Vault (an indy game developer that you do NOT want to be compared to).

However your argument doesn't require any latin phrasing. It's simply a Straw Man fallacy, you're distracting from the original topic and point.

SAVAGE_CABBAGE1
04-21-2017, 09:46 PM
It's only been a day and I've already encountered this issue. Revenge no longer gives an outnumbered remaining player any reasonable chance or incentive to stand their ground and fight, encouraging a different survival strategy: running. Just, running. Either to fish for environment gimps or run out the clock. In this regard, heroes with faster sprints like PK now have a much greater advantage over slower ones who can't escape as quickly, and an even greater advantage if they're matched against slower sprinting heroes/builds.

I've already had multiple matches where my remaining teammates are unable to chase down the last enemy player literally "running" down the clock, and on some wider maps with lots of open areas and escape routes it's depressing to watch teammates simply unable to catch up to or corner the opponent. I was in an Elimination match that actually timed out on two rounds, not because of intense nail-biting edge-of-your-seat fighting, but because of continuous running and chasing. Not exactly a thrilling way to end matches.

And in the case you're the only skilled player matched with a team of lower-level players in Elimination, every round you'll survive your first opponent only to face an insurmountable 3v1 gankfest. Before Revenge would give you a chance to turn the tides if your teammates dropped the ball, but now bad match-making is like a death sentence. If you're the kind of good sport that won't disconnect out of respect for the group's play quality, you're practically guaranteed a bad time until the match is over.

Revenge was admittedly pretty OP previously, but at least it encouraged fighting in order to finish a round and keep some exciting suspense over the match outcome, instead of a one-sided perfunctory gankfest on one end or a dragged out chase on the other. What's more, at least in the case of match ends, Revenge genuinely encouraged skill-based dueling, as enemy players would refrain from ganging up in order to prevent Revenge from being incurred and risking defeat, and it was exciting to some extent to play against higher level players who would prove challenging instead of simply ganking them under the rug. It is more realistic, true, but there's less suspense and tension in some respects. I can see how in modes like Dominion the number advantages can play to a well-coordinated team's favor, but on the other hand it seems to discourage duel-based skill and emphasize team-based skill, which is difficult to manage if you don't have a microphone or play on console with limited team messages. Previously a player could focus on beating one opponent at a time with the threat of Revenge keeping others at bay, but now fights are constantly interrupted. I've seen players now gang up with one being the dedicated guard-breaker and the other being the dedicated attacker, it's a simple matter of guard-breaking then attacking, rinsing and repeating until the opponent is dead with little in the way to discourage it. Revenge is no longer a sufficient deterrent to this playstyle.

It's interesting how a small change to some statistics can have such a large impact on the meta, and it doesn't seem like many players here have encountered these issues yet. I'm not sure how to resolve these new kinks, not sure if it's just an issue with the way certain modes are designed or how matchmaking is set up. I know Revenge needed a nerf somehow, but these are some of the side effects I've seen that I've found kind of annoying.

I still 1v3 on consoles, only difference is I now need focus and skill to do so.

Admittedly, I probably won't kill them alone, I usually get 1 or 2 kills and my team helps me with the last one. But I think this is how it was meant to be, a buffer of time that gives you a chance to survive until your team comes and gets you out of the pickle you got yourself into.

SAVAGE_CABBAGE1
04-21-2017, 10:03 PM
Rhodri. Beautiful. Listen.
If you're being ganked by multiple people in a team fight, you shouldn't survive against a coordinated team on your own so easily, which is what the old revenge was enabling. Your team is also in the game, they can assist you. Revenge now gives you time for your team to come assist you, and, if you're skilled enough, you might be able to win without them.

How is this a bad game mechanic?

CitizenPuddi
04-21-2017, 10:12 PM
How is this a bad game mechanic?

ive been robbed of my ability to cobble together sick 1v4 victories for my sweet youtub career hilights

how am i supposed to get laid now?

SAVAGE_CABBAGE1
04-21-2017, 10:13 PM
ive been robbed of my ability to cobble together sick 1v4 victories for my sweet youtub career hilights

how am i supposed to get laid now?

This actually made me breath out my nose harder than usual

CitizenPuddi
04-21-2017, 10:15 PM
This actually made me breath out my nose harder than usual

likewise

( ͡ ͜ʖ ͡)

xLeapingLizardx
04-21-2017, 10:18 PM
ive been robbed of my ability to cobble together sick 1v4 victories for my sweet youtub career hilights

how am i supposed to get laid now?

"Slow clap"

bmason1000
04-22-2017, 12:15 AM
Rhodri. Beautiful. Listen.
If you're being ganked by multiple people in a team fight, you shouldn't survive against a coordinated team on your own so easily, which is what the old revenge was enabling. Your team is also in the game, they can assist you. Revenge now gives you time for your team to come assist you, and, if you're skilled enough, you might be able to win without them.

How is this a bad game mechanic?
Seriously, works perfectly now. I still win 1v2 consistently and a 3rd opponent makes it a last stand kind of deal. I'm just keeping them occupied until they take me down and it really feels right. I enjoy this much much more.

RapStylezz
04-22-2017, 12:26 AM
The revenge nerf is one of the best updates we have had till now. All the 4v4 modes are modes where you fight as a TEAM. Are you holding up a zone and you see 2 people running up to you your fight or flight instinct kicks in. You either back up and call for help or you hold your ground and call for help, it is realistic that your not expected to have an easy time going 1v2 or 3. Those who complain that hard about the revenge nerf are those people that loved just 2 shotting people with their prestige 5+ character.

Idk if something could be improved but as of now I believe this revenge nerf is balanced in a great way right now. It pushes the team work and strategic play, and now I can finally switch up from my prestige 4-5 characters for some new characters feeling more confortable about fighting high prestiges when I try a new char. If you do not want to get ganked, play smart instead of running up to 2-3 people holding a zone. Even now from my experience you can STILL get revenge 2 times if you defend yourself properly, so revenge is not useless.

I have actually still whooped a LOT of *** with help of the current revenge system as in 1v2's and even 1v3's. Your skill matters more now than your revenge stats which is obviously the right choice. I like the current version of revenge way more. Play smart and git gud

sgtpickles
04-22-2017, 02:00 AM
I have to say, Rhodri331, mad respect for trying to have intelligent discussions with the git-gud gank squad crowd. Forum surfers are usually casual players that do not even play the game. Good players had no trouble with the old revenge. I would spam crowd control on them while the rest of my team spammed heavies. I expect most people were just spamming heavies...

Robert223333
04-22-2017, 02:37 AM
The revenge nerf is one of the best updates we have had till now. All the 4v4 modes are modes where you fight as a TEAM. Are you holding up a zone and you see 2 people running up to you your fight or flight instinct kicks in. You either back up and call for help or you hold your ground and call for help, it is realistic that your not expected to have an easy time going 1v2 or 3. Those who complain that hard about the revenge nerf are those people that loved just 2 shotting people with their prestige 5+ character.

Idk if something could be improved but as of now I believe this revenge nerf is balanced in a great way right now. It pushes the team work and strategic play, and now I can finally switch up from my prestige 4-5 characters for some new characters feeling more confortable about fighting high prestiges when I try a new char. If you do not want to get ganked, play smart instead of running up to 2-3 people holding a zone. Even now from my experience you can STILL get revenge 2 times if you defend yourself properly, so revenge is not useless.

I have actually still whooped a LOT of *** with help of the current revenge system as in 1v2's and even 1v3's. Your skill matters more now than your revenge stats which is obviously the right choice. I like the current version of revenge way more. Play smart and git gud
+1 Exactly this.

CoyoteXStarrk
04-22-2017, 03:00 AM
The revenge nerf is one of the best updates we have had till now. All the 4v4 modes are modes where you fight as a TEAM. Are you holding up a zone and you see 2 people running up to you your fight or flight instinct kicks in. You either back up and call for help or you hold your ground and call for help, it is realistic that your not expected to have an easy time going 1v2 or 3. Those who complain that hard about the revenge nerf are those people that loved just 2 shotting people with their prestige 5+ character.

Idk if something could be improved but as of now I believe this revenge nerf is balanced in a great way right now. It pushes the team work and strategic play, and now I can finally switch up from my prestige 4-5 characters for some new characters feeling more confortable about fighting high prestiges when I try a new char. If you do not want to get ganked, play smart instead of running up to 2-3 people holding a zone. Even now from my experience you can STILL get revenge 2 times if you defend yourself properly, so revenge is not useless.

I have actually still whooped a LOT of *** with help of the current revenge system as in 1v2's and even 1v3's. Your skill matters more now than your revenge stats which is obviously the right choice. I like the current version of revenge way more. Play smart and git gud


Agree 100%


I have said it before and I will say it again.


Revenge should only give you a CHANCE in a 2v1 or higher situation. Not hand you the victory on a silver platter. Your skill is what should get you a win. Not your gear.

SendRickPics
04-22-2017, 03:04 AM
I have to say, Rhodri331, mad respect for trying to have intelligent discussions with the git-gud gank squad crowd. Forum surfers are usually casual players that do not even play the game. Good players had no trouble with the old revenge. I would spam crowd control on them while the rest of my team spammed heavies. I expect most people were just spamming heavies...
Can't have an intelligent discussion when most people are devoid of it. But I'm trying anyway. Thanks for the compliments SgtPickles. :o

xLeapingLizardx
04-22-2017, 03:44 AM
I have to say, Rhodri331, mad respect for trying to have intelligent discussions with the git-gud gank squad crowd. Forum surfers are usually casual players that do not even play the game. Good players had no trouble with the old revenge. I would spam crowd control on them while the rest of my team spammed heavies. I expect most people were just spamming heavies...

Can't have an intelligent discussion when most people are devoid of it. But I'm trying anyway. Thanks for the compliments SgtPickles. :o

Are y'all serious right now?....

People are giving intelligent valid point left and right... You guys are basically choosing not to acknowledge intelligent points and are just automatically labeling everyone who opposes your views "gank reliant/ git gud" people (Which by the way, could apply to you, people are telling you to "git gud" to fight multiple people and you are telling people to "git gud" when fighting against pre-nerf revenge.. so hmmmm)

Glad you know the final consensus of how "forum surfers" play the game...

Having trouble with the old revenge or not having trouble with the old revenge is beside the point. It was being heavily exploited and people didn't have to employ much skill to kill multiple people..
I myself was never against revenge as it was (except for when it triggered in a 1v1 fight, that pissed me off every time). But this nerf does nothing but help me since I never used revenge as a crutch to win... Also, playing with the new revenge and actually having some trouble against many enemies or being able to team up to try and take out a skilled player was much more enjoyable than the revenge ruled game that it was pre-nerf...

I read your post and responded to each of your points... How about you guys do the same instead of dodging legitimate points and saying we don't have any intelligence...

ImTiredOfU
04-22-2017, 04:09 AM
See it's not just that you cant 1v4 it's just completely useless now. Before it took skill to kill that revenge person. Now I can be at the top of the leader board by just running in a group spamming r2. Its boring and anyone that agrees with this new fighting meta of zergfest r2 spam as skill needs to go play every other button smashing game and leave this one alone. It was unique and now we are left with the same old story. It's no wonder the baddies that couldn't deal with revenge are happy now just sad

CoyoteXStarrk
04-22-2017, 04:30 AM
Are y'all serious right now?....

People are giving intelligent valid point left and right... You guys are basically choosing not to acknowledge intelligent points and are just automatically labeling everyone who opposes your views "gank reliant/ git gud" people (Which by the way, could apply to you, people are telling you to "git gud" to fight multiple people and you are telling people to "git gud" when fighting against pre-nerf revenge.. so hmmmm)

Glad you know the final consensus of how "forum surfers" play the game...

Having trouble with the old revenge or not having trouble with the old revenge is beside the point. It was being heavily exploited and people didn't have to employ much skill to kill multiple people..
I myself was never against revenge as it was (except for when it triggered in a 1v1 fight, that pissed me off every time). But this nerf does nothing but help me since I never used revenge as a crutch to win... Also, playing with the new revenge and actually having some trouble against many enemies or being able to team up to try and take out a skilled player was much more enjoyable than the revenge ruled game that it was pre-nerf...

I read your post and responded to each of your points... How about you guys do the same instead of dodging legitimate points and saying we don't have any intelligence...

You should see the other thread where that Rhodri guy is claiming he is immune to bans because he paid $100 for the game and if they did ban him it would be "Theft" and then he would file a class action lawsuit against them.


I wish I was kidding. lol

lycan315
04-22-2017, 05:33 AM
revenge needs tweaked up some to the middle ground from were its at now, devs just needs to find the sweet spot.

bmason1000
04-22-2017, 05:49 AM
I am extremely happy with the new revenge. I still can still win 1v2 situations(even pulled off a few without revenge at all) and feel very pressured doing so. 1v3 i do my best to keep them occupied before they take me down and it feels very right. I find revenge's current state incredibly satisfying and very much improved.

lycan315
04-22-2017, 06:08 AM
thats cool i just think revenge is a bit weak and needs buffed a little bit not to god mode or anything just enough to balance things out a tad for god players and newbies and still keep that addictive fun factor it gave off imo.

sgtpickles
04-22-2017, 06:40 AM
Are y'all serious right now?....

People are giving intelligent valid point left and right... You guys are basically choosing not to acknowledge intelligent points and are just automatically labeling everyone who opposes your views "gank reliant/ git gud" people (Which by the way, could apply to you, people are telling you to "git gud" to fight multiple people and you are telling people to "git gud" when fighting against pre-nerf revenge.. so hmmmm)

Glad you know the final consensus of how "forum surfers" play the game...

Having trouble with the old revenge or not having trouble with the old revenge is beside the point. It was being heavily exploited and people didn't have to employ much skill to kill multiple people..
I myself was never against revenge as it was (except for when it triggered in a 1v1 fight, that pissed me off every time). But this nerf does nothing but help me since I never used revenge as a crutch to win... Also, playing with the new revenge and actually having some trouble against many enemies or being able to team up to try and take out a skilled player was much more enjoyable than the revenge ruled game that it was pre-nerf...

I read your post and responded to each of your points... How about you guys do the same instead of dodging legitimate points and saying we don't have any intelligence...

Absolutely serious, forums are a minority of the players. People that enjoy the game rarely come here to say "man this game is great... i love this and this and this." You are all ignoring the game development videos where they discuss why revenge was added to the game. Revenge was an issue in 1v1 and only in 1v1. They should have stopped it from generating any revenge at all when in a 1v1. There are obviously different generation rates based on the number of foes close to you. They should have messed with this item. How fast it popped in 4v1 was a little ridiculous as well. It was meant to reward holding your ground against an army... R-E-V-E-N-G-E.

I still remember the first time me and my friends ran into a revenge geared player. It was a Nobushi on High Fort. We were so confused as to why she was getting revenge so much. We were running around as a gank squad whent he game was new. Easy wins. It was fun till we ran into that player that stopped us in our tracks... of course until we knew how to deal with it.

xLeapingLizardx
04-22-2017, 07:38 AM
Absolutely serious, forums are a minority of the players. People that enjoy the game rarely come here to say "man this game is great... i love this and this and this." You are all ignoring the game development videos where they discuss why revenge was added to the game. Revenge was an issue in 1v1 and only in 1v1. They should have stopped it from generating any revenge at all when in a 1v1. There are obviously different generation rates based on the number of foes close to you. They should have messed with this item. How fast it popped in 4v1 was a little ridiculous as well. It was meant to reward holding your ground against an army... R-E-V-E-N-G-E.

I still remember the first time me and my friends ran into a revenge geared player. It was a Nobushi on High Fort. We were so confused as to why she was getting revenge so much. We were running around as a gank squad whent he game was new. Easy wins. It was fun till we ran into that player that stopped us in our tracks... of course until we knew how to deal with it.

I am playing the game right now and I'm reading and replying in between matches... Why can't the argument be made that the people in the forums know the game and are dedicated enough to actually go to a forum exclusively for the game?....

The game development videos, sure, but as people have said their goal/ reasonings can change over time... That is what rebalancing is for.
If they added a ballista to help you kill soldiers in the middle zone but players would use it to kill players they would need to rebalance it, but it would still be there.
They added revenge to help you when outnumbered, but it wasn't supposed to make you have a huge advantage whenever it wasn't a 1v1 to where people would favor being outnumbered to let their revenge do all the work.. Revenge was working not as intended.
Plus it is still there, is still fuctional, and is still working!
I have been enjoying my games immensely and it is so satisfying and exciting to really have to use an exceptional amount of skill. It makes being outnumbered that much more intense!

Lastly, it's 4v4... Is ganking not a viable tactic?
You want revenge to punish "stupid gankers" but it still is a viable tactic
Plus, revenge is STILL in the game!... People are acting like it has been wiped from for honor and you are just left to your own devices...

Maybe you should go request a mechanic to where anytime you lock onto an opponent and they lock onto you it creates a bubble around you both that no one can enter until one of you dies?.... That would serve your purpose better and would truly stop the "mindless/ stupid/ all the words y'all use to describe them" gankers.

SAVAGE_CABBAGE1
04-22-2017, 02:29 PM
Can't have an intelligent discussion when most people are devoid of it. But I'm trying anyway. Thanks for the compliments SgtPickles. :o

All you're doing is dodging legitimate discussions and being a hypocrite.

SAVAGE_CABBAGE1
04-22-2017, 02:33 PM
See it's not just that you cant 1v4 it's just completely useless now. Before it took skill to kill that revenge person. Now I can be at the top of the leader board by just running in a group spamming r2. Its boring and anyone that agrees with this new fighting meta of zergfest r2 spam as skill needs to go play every other button smashing game and leave this one alone. It was unique and now we are left with the same old story. It's no wonder the baddies that couldn't deal with revenge are happy now just sad

I have to disagree with you on this, as anyone that just spams R2 against me in revenge is just getting parried. I still 1v2 and 1v3 consistently and even 1v4 every now and again. This new revenge takes skill to beat, and skill to use. I see nothing wrong with that style of balance.

SendRickPics
04-22-2017, 10:16 PM
All you're doing is dodging legitimate discussions and being a hypocrite.

Not true at all, most posts in this thread have been fallacies of some sort. As for your accusations of hypocrisy, I'd love to see you back that up.

Robsket
04-22-2017, 10:26 PM
this nerf is the greatest things devs have done, now the game is funnier and also more balanced. The skill now matters more than the gears

kweassa1917
04-22-2017, 10:56 PM
Absolutely serious, forums are a minority of the players. People that enjoy the game rarely come here to say "man this game is great... i love this and this and this." You are all ignoring the game development videos where they discuss why revenge was added to the game.

That was then, This is now. Development goals, views change. You're envoking a ghost from the past to defend a point of view which has been outdated and UPDATED by the developers themselves. The devs basically admitted their error in the spec design, and decided it needed to change.

What you're doing, is the equivalent of using pre-Einstein Newtonian physics to argue a point against modern quantum physics. ie., DOESN'T WORK



Revenge was an issue in 1v1 and only in 1v1. They should have stopped it from generating any revenge at all when in a 1v1. There are obviously different generation rates based on the number of foes close to you. They should have messed with this item. How fast it popped in 4v1 was a little ridiculous as well.

Not according to a lot of other players NOR THE DEVS. Ever seen a Warlord or Conq hold up a node in Dominion? How about players that confess that they had 10 sec revenge fire up 8 times in under 2 minutes and they were gamebreakingly unkillable?



It was meant to reward holding your ground against an army... R-E-V-E-N-G-E.

Except players aren't minions or mobs. You may feel all mighty and superior from holding a chokepoint by relying on that broken piece of shi*, but what about the other guys? What about the guys that were better all around than your own team and killed 3 of them before you in Elim? What about the guys that successfully cornered the last enemy in a tight 1000-1000 game? Why in the world should the be penalized and robbed of their win because they played BETTER?

You don't design a game where a group of players are massively out-specced by a single person and basically turned into a NPC/mob/minion state.



I still remember the first time me and my friends ran into a revenge geared player. It was a Nobushi on High Fort. We were so confused as to why she was getting revenge so much. We were running around as a gank squad whent he game was new. Easy wins. It was fun till we ran into that player that stopped us in our tracks... of course until we knew how to deal with it.

I can argue people learn to deal with how to live in Somalia. A fat lot of good that does to justify the human rights situation there, huh.

ImTiredOfU
04-22-2017, 11:21 PM
You can defend the revenge nerf all you want but the truth of the matter is it was a lot more fun and took skill to kill a revenge character before nerf. Anyone had access to revenge gear and power that it gave. Now it is straight boring in 4v4 period. Of you don't stack then you lose. No tactic no skill just group up and smash r2 and as long as you don't smash r2 the same time as your team mates then there is no defense against it. If your team got wiped by a revenge build pre nerf then honestly that was lack of team communication. By this nerf this game was instantly turned into any other hack n slash. The uniqueness is gone and the difficulty turned way down. Good job making 4v4 a mindless smash game that favors undefendable zergs. Especially pugs they now have no chance of you team doesn't group up you die. In a game with such ****ty friend system and communication this is just bad for business. If you honestly believe this takes more skill than before you are a joke. There was stuff broken about revenge but it wasn't what the changes. Double dipping bad getting spammable knockdown was wrong that was it. The rest as you anti revenge say was a get gud issue. It was lack of team work if your team got wrecked my 1 dude. Sorry but truth is if you regularly had issues before with revenge then you were zergging and smashing r2 plain and simple. Again I find this game so much easier than before not harder. Hence why pro p e are complaining about the nerf we are bored of easy r2 spamming fights already. Rip 4v4

kweassa1917
04-22-2017, 11:49 PM
You can defend the revenge nerf all you want but the truth of the matter is it was a lot more fun and took skill to kill a revenge character before nerf.

Fun for whom? "For you?" Or for the guys who outplayed your team and had you cornered?



Anyone had access to revenge gear and power that it gave. Now it is straight boring in 4v4 period. Of you don't stack then you lose. No tactic no skill just group up and smash r2 and as long as you don't smash r2 the same time as your team mates then there is no defense against it.

Is this some sort of a joke? You even know what the word "TACTICS" means? Here's the Merriam-Webster for you:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Definition of tactics

1
a : the science and art of disposing and maneuvering forces in combat
b : the art or skill of employing available means to accomplish an end
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Being closed off and surrounded by multiple enemies is.... what? ... result of being OUTMANEUVERED?

Study any famous battle in history, masterful tacticians and generals of fame and their victories consis of... what?... outmaneuvering enemy forces to create pockets of local NUMBERS ADVANTAGE to waiver and destroy an enemy line, to finally SURROUND them.

The fundamental basics of military tactics start out with securing numbers advantage. :rolleyes:




If your team got wiped by a revenge build pre nerf then honestly that was lack of team communication.

Which goes straight back to you. When you get surrounded by enemies, that's a result of even more appalling lack of communication -- which you shouldn't expect to survive from in the first place.

So why are you arguing lack of communication, when being ganked is even worse a lack of communication from your own part?



By this nerf this game was instantly turned into any other hack n slash. The uniqueness is gone and the difficulty turned way down.

Ironic, isn't it

You're arguing the difficulty went down, but all I see in comments like these is people have quite GREAT DIFFICULTY in grasping even the most basic tactics of team based combat. As a matter of fact, they understand it SO POORLY, that they are whining about how they can't go SUPAH-SAIYAN and cream everyone else.



Good job making 4v4 a mindless smash game that favors undefendable zergs. Especially pugs they now have no chance of you team doesn't group up you die. In a game with such ****ty friend system and communication this is just bad for business. If you honestly believe this takes more skill than before you are a joke. There was stuff broken about revenge but it wasn't what the changes. Double dipping bad getting spammable knockdown was wrong that was it. The rest as you anti revenge say was a get gud issue. It was lack of team work if your team got wrecked my 1 dude. Sorry but truth is if you regularly had issues before with revenge then you were zergging and smashing r2 plain and simple. Again I find this game so much easier than before not harder. Hence why pro p e are complaining about the nerf we are bored of easy r2 spamming fights already. Rip 4v4


See, this is the cream of the crop. The king-swing. The fundamental misconception that's born from petty egoes with zero knowledge of what consists team combat and tactics.

You think that because they surrounded and killed you off easily like a gnat, they're "mindless" and "zerging" -- and in your hot, blind rage you simply assume that if they fought "fairly" you'd have won.

In the end, the revenge-nerf whiney-folk, is basically about EGOS.

Your ego cannot handle the simple fact that you've been very simply OUTPLAYED AND OUTMANEUVERED by people who you think so little of. "Mindless" and "zergs". LOL, that's rich.

But then, wow, Just HOW is that "mindless zergs", seem to be able to catch them "BETTER" and "SMARTER" and "TACTICAL" players with their pants down so often and easily, and wipe the floor with their arses so easily and quickly? I mean, if them "zergs" are so "mindless", shouldn't it be your smart arse that's winning more often?


Maybe they're not so "mindless" as you thought?

I mean, mindless or no, they at least seem to be able to know how to count, and make the simple calculation that two heads are better than one. When those "zergs" can do that simple calculation, AND YOU CAN'T, who is the "mindless" one again?

Isn't " 1 < 2 " or "1 < 3" or "1 < 4" like first, second-grade math?

Why are you arguing "1 = 2" and "1 = 3" and even "1 = 4" ?

You're not playing a single-player game where everything else are just mobs, and you can tank hordes of enemies and win. Wake up, dude.

Robsket
04-22-2017, 11:56 PM
fun for whom? "for you?" or for the guys who outplayed your team and had you cornered?




Is this some sort of a joke? You even know what the word "tactics" means? Here's the merriam-webster for you:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
definition of tactics

1
a : The science and art of disposing and maneuvering forces in combat
b : The art or skill of employing available means to accomplish an end
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


being closed off and surrounded by multiple enemies is.... What? ... Result of being outmaneuvered?

Study any famous battle in history, masterful tacticians and generals of fame and their victories consis of... What?... outmaneuvering enemy forces to create pockets of local numbers advantage to waiver and destroy an enemy line, to finally surround them.

the fundamental basics of military tactics start out with securing numbers advantage. :rolleyes:





Which goes straight back to you. When you get surrounded by enemies, that's a result of even more appalling lack of communication -- which you shouldn't expect to survive from in the first place.

So why are you arguing lack of communication, when being ganked is even worse a lack of communication from your own part?




Ironic, isn't it

your arguing the difficulty went down, but all i see in comments like these is people have quite great difficulty in grasping even the most basic tactics of team based combat. As a matter of fact, they understand it so poorly, that they are whining about how they can't go supah-saiyan and cream everyone else.





See, this is the cream of the crop. The king-swing. The fundamental misconception that's born from petty egoes with zero knowledge of what consists team combat and tactics.

You think that because they surrounded and killed you off easily like a gnat, they're "mindless" and "zerging" -- and in your hot, blind rage you simply [i]assume that if they fought "fairly" you'd have won.

In the end, the revenge-nerf whiney-folk, is basically about egos.

Your ego cannot handle the simple fact that you've been very simply outplayed and outmaneubered by people who you think so little of. "mindless" and "zergs". Lol, that's rich.

But then, wow, just how is that "mindless zergs", seem to be able to catch them "better" and "smarter" and "tactical" players with their pants down so often and easily, and wipe the floor with their arses so easily and quickly? i mean, if them "zergs" are so "mindless", shouldn't it be your smart arse that's winning more often?


Maybe they're not so "mindless" as you thought?

I mean, mindless or no, they at least seem to be able to know how to count, and make the simple calculation that two heads are better than one. When those "zergs" can do that simple calculation, and you can't, who is the "mindless" one again? Rofl

I quote every single word.
wise one <3

kweassa1917
04-23-2017, 12:11 AM
I quote every single word.
wise one <3

I like the "tactics" part. Hearing these people come up with these ridiculous and arbitrary assumptions about "tactics"...

I keep imagining Epaminondas in the battle of Leuctra(371 BCE)... where he positioned a MASSIVE force of Theban hoplites on the left flank in a slanted formation, to simply OVERWHELM the "elite" Spartan right with sheer kinetic force and size of impact to break the lines...

...and the Spartan commander is like, yelling his throat off:

"YOU FREAKIN' MINDLESS THEBAN ZERGS!!! THAT'S FOUL! YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO DO THAT! DON'T YOU KNOW 'TACTICS'? US SPARTANS ARE SUPPOSED TO BE SUPAH-SAYAN AND ABLE TO BEAT MINDLESS ZERGS EVEN WHEN THEY TRY GANK!!!!"

:D :D :D

(ps) Of course, military historians consider Epaminondas as one of the great tacticians and genius generals of the time. So clearly, military doctrine and art of warfare seems to support "ganking" is kinda smart thing to do. Unlike how the whiney bunch want to paint it.

ImTiredOfU
04-23-2017, 12:26 AM
Like I said defend the nerf all you want coming from someone that didn't use full revenge builds I never had an issue like you baddies obviously did. I knew not to spam r2. I liked fighting revenge builds as it was a challenge I never said I was using it. You people sucked and couldn't deal with it plain and simple. Don't give me **** about tactics this new zerg and fight is boring as ****. You hear me boring. It is to easy to kill people period. If I wanted this playstyle I litterally. Could have plaid any other game out without the bugs. You baddies couldn't let a game be different just had to ***** and moan. Again like I said out of my 5 rep 3+ only 1 had revenge gear. Again I have no problem stompping on people like normal just now I can spam r2 with no penalty at all. Just boring and too easy to kill. I'm sorry you anti revenge just sucked that bad. I play this game a lot and game play don't lie. Since this patch over 95 percent of games are smash r2 so I joined and guess what. I have absolutely no problem being top of the charts by litterally just smashing r2 in a group. How is that skill? Nothing you can lie and say will make me believe otherwise cause I can do this. I have a very high success rate with this so called TACTIC of yours.

kweassa1917
04-23-2017, 01:12 AM
Like I said defend the nerf all you want coming from someone that didn't use full revenge builds I never had an issue like you baddies obviously did. I knew not to spam r2. I liked fighting revenge builds as it was a challenge I never said I was using it. You people sucked and couldn't deal with it plain and simple.

Oooooh struck a nerve, have I? So you're another one of those "Hey, I didn't use that thing, I'm just defending the old revenge for someone else" types, huh. :rolleyes:



Don't give me **** about tactics this new zerg and fight is boring as ****. You hear me boring. It is to easy to kill people period. If I wanted this playstyle I litterally. Could have plaid any other game out without the bugs. You baddies couldn't let a game be different just had to ***** and moan. Again like I said out of my 5 rep 3+ only 1 had revenge gear. Again I have no problem stompping on people like normal just now I can spam r2 with no penalty at all. Just boring and too easy to kill. I'm sorry you anti revenge just sucked that bad. I play this game a lot and game play don't lie.

Well it's not boring for me. So when conflict of interest happens, guess who has the last say in it. Uh... developers? If you can't adapt to that, well good luck. Sucks to be you, huh.

Me and many other people, we're having a blast punshing idiots with no brains.



Since this patch over 95 percent of games are smash r2 so I joined and guess what. I have absolutely no problem being top of the charts by litterally just smashing r2 in a group. How is that skill? Nothing you can lie and say will make me believe otherwise cause I can do this. I have a very high success rate with this so called TACTIC of yours.

If it's the same "smash r2", logic simply dictates it's better to have a "smash r2" that makes sense, rather than have Dragonball fanboiz demanding they flip the game over with a god-mode r2 smashing.

Besides, if you like a challenge, what's stopping you from NOT joining in ganks and try fighting 1v2, 1v3, 1v4s alone? Certainly whole lot of the whiney folk seems to be butting their heads against it (and then coming to the forums everytime they fail).

XImohtephXX
04-23-2017, 02:00 AM
Like I said defend the nerf all you want coming from someone that didn't use full revenge builds I never had an issue like you baddies obviously did. I knew not to spam r2. I liked fighting revenge builds as it was a challenge I never said I was using it. You people sucked and couldn't deal with it plain and simple. Don't give me **** about tactics this new zerg and fight is boring as ****. You hear me boring. It is to easy to kill people period. If I wanted this playstyle I litterally. Could have plaid any other game out without the bugs. You baddies couldn't let a game be different just had to ***** and moan. Again like I said out of my 5 rep 3+ only 1 had revenge gear. Again I have no problem stompping on people like normal just now I can spam r2 with no penalty at all. Just boring and too easy to kill. I'm sorry you anti revenge just sucked that bad. I play this game a lot and game play don't lie. Since this patch over 95 percent of games are smash r2 so I joined and guess what. I have absolutely no problem being top of the charts by litterally just smashing r2 in a group. How is that skill? Nothing you can lie and say will make me believe otherwise cause I can do this. I have a very high success rate with this so called TACTIC of yours.

I feel I have an accurate theory regarding your base problem. I feel this entire tirade came from you butting heads against a particular individual using an unrepped character in a 4v4 against your God repped whatever you play. Im guessing you found this individual holding a point and attempted to massacre said individual with your shiny sparkling max geared killing machine. They beat you......you tried again to the same result. And without skipping a beat or performing anything that would resemble self examination you blamed the change and thereby the people who brought about the change....................that or your parents didnt hit you hard enough either theory seems about right.

ImTiredOfU
04-23-2017, 02:03 AM
Man you must be some kind of special dude. What part of I am joining in an it's boring didn't you understand. I'm glad dumbing this games mechanics down so you are good enough to enjoy is the new thing. Honestly I could give 2 ****s less what happens to this game I got my 60 dollars worth of making snowflakes rage quit. I just got tired of you anti revenge baddies being so toxic telling people to get gud ******** while believing just because you were whinning the loudest that you were right. It's the same 5-10 people on here that are anti revenge yet I see post after post of people complaining that it was the wrong changes it always the same defending the changes. Bias as **** is what it is just because you main isn't op to carry your r2 smashing *** you got to moan. So many broken things yet you blame and go after revenge. I bet most of you anti revenge use unlock tech too huh. Your high level exploits. See here is the thing I have leveled many character and had a blast except for disconnects and exploit users(unlock tech) never did I think revege needed this because I knew how to defend against it. I actually was more afraid of feats then revenge. I'll take on old revenge all day over almost being 1 shot in the back from range in a melee game. I'll take the old revenge over blocking an attack just to have it hit anyway just because they unlocked. I'll take the old revenge over constant disconnects. I'll take old revenge over the curent match making. You killed uniqueness for easy mode. Just remember they could have easily fixed characters that exploited revenge instead of destroying its concept and function. Not all characters were gods in revenge against skilled players but against baddies oh god they messed you guys up. This game just turned into God of war playstyle with a he'll of a lot more bugs.

UbiNoty
04-23-2017, 02:05 AM
Ok, so I see this thread has gotten a bit out of hand and I'll be closing it now.
Thank you all for the feedback and the debate around the revenge changes was informative, but this is a gentle reminder to be civil and respectful in your responses to other members of the community.

Forum Rules (http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1181763-Forum-Rules)
Code of Conduct (http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1571524-Code-of-Conduct)