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Peligrad
04-17-2017, 01:57 PM
Is there a tier list out there with the new changes?

I've been out of the game for quite a while and considering giving the game a second go.

My conq looks to have been completely dumped on so I'm looking for an alternative.

I was goofing around with Lawbringer last night and WOW! he got some great buffs.

But with PK's light spam being faster than his guard change speed I'm not sure about him.

Anyone have insights?

Blasto95
04-17-2017, 02:05 PM
Im sure you can find a tier list somehwere around here. But honestly, people are learning new tactics every week. A month ago Raider was considered one of the worst, now in competitive play he can be one of the best. Shugoki was not used even close to how he is now when the game first started. As far as I know, nothing changed for him, just people tried playing him in a new way to counter turtles.

LB is a good place to start since he just got buffed. But some of his buffs need tweaking apparently. Im on console so I have not tried him out yet, but apparently he has a 50/50 mix up now. After a shove he gets an unblocakble light attack, the defender can dodge but the LB can also GB if they dodge.

kweassa1917
04-17-2017, 02:34 PM
There isn't an official statistic on wins and losses (except the ones the devs have, and it's non-disclosed), and there's always a possibility that certain records might not reflect objective reality -- for example, the Orochi is basically a "newbie killer" -- really easy class to use due to easy-spam attacks, but hits a bit of a wall as you advance in skill. So, since there are always a LOT more low-skilled people, the Orochi probably has a padded win/loss ratio and other positive specs, but may not be viewed very highly in the higher tiers.

So, that being said, my assessment would be:


[OP Tier] Warden, PK
[High Tier] Warlord, Conqueror
[Mid - Upper] Orochi, Berserker, Lawbringer
[Mid - lower] Nobushi, Shugoki, Valkyrie
[Low Tier] Raider, Kensei

Peligrad
04-17-2017, 02:39 PM
Im sure you can find a tier list somehwere around here. But honestly, people are learning new tactics every week. A month ago Raider was considered one of the worst, now in competitive play he can be one of the best. Shugoki was not used even close to how he is now when the game first started. As far as I know, nothing changed for him, just people tried playing him in a new way to counter turtles.

LB is a good place to start since he just got buffed. But some of his buffs need tweaking apparently. Im on console so I have not tried him out yet, but apparently he has a 50/50 mix up now. After a shove he gets an unblockable light attack, the defender can dodge but the LB can also GB if they dodge.

If that's true then there is really no reason to play conq any more.

If you get an unblockable light after shove then you pretty much have a free light attack if it is a true 50/50.

As the defender if you have the option between eating a light attack for 15 damage or trying to dodge and then swallowing a GB for a side heavy of 30 damage or worse yet instant death from being thrown. Then you are going to eat the light attack pretty much every time.

So basically Lawbringer has all the offensive tools a conq has, but deals more damage per hit, has better CC options, has more free damage options, has better range, has great parry options, and has more hp.

The only thing he doesn't have is automatic combo stop on block, he has to actually hit a button to stop combos but on the plus side the same tool that stops combos automatically puts him into his offensive 50/50.

This kind of has me scratching my head... guess I'll just profit off of Ubi's incompetence until everyone else figures it out and LB gets nerfed.

Peligrad
04-17-2017, 02:53 PM
There isn't an official statistic on wins and losses (except the ones the devs have, and it's non-disclosed), and there's always a possibility that certain records might not reflect objective reality -- for example, the Orochi is basically a "newbie killer" -- really easy class to use due to easy-spam attacks, but hits a bit of a wall as you advance in skill. So, since there are always a LOT more low-skilled people, the Orochi probably has a padded win/loss ratio and other positive specs, but may not be viewed very highly in the higher tiers.

So, that being said, my assessment would be:


[OP Tier] Warden, PK
[High Tier] Warlord, Conqueror
[Mid - Upper] Orochi, Berserker, Lawbringer
[Mid - lower] Nobushi, Shugoki, Valkyrie
[Low Tier] Raider, Kensei

Conq got seriously nerfed though. Not sure how he can be considered high tier when he has no good offensive options and his defense is no better than any other vanguard or heavy character and has literally the weakest conversion of damage off defensive tools (weakest parry options of any character in the game outside of his charged heavy attack which is completely avoidable).

PK I think is still OP just because of her light attack spam. But it sounds like Ubi is going to address that.
Warden I really don't think is OP. He seems pretty balanced to me.
Warlord seems to have gotten some of the same treatment as conq, but he has more tools to keep people off-balance, so while the nerfs hurt, they don't completely shut down his offense the way that it does to conq.
Berserker I'd say is in high tier with his new buffs. He seems very solid on paper, steadily gaining power (or rather losing weaknesses) with each patch.
I thought Valk was pretty good after her buffs? Shugoki I thought has always been considered a top 5 character.

I was expecting a tier list more like

S: PK (to be addressed in upcoming patch)
A: Warlord, Warden, Shugoki, Valk, LB, Berserker (not sure on order)
B: Nobushi (needs her stance change sped up. other than that she's good to go IMO), Orochi (his kit just needs a little more flexibility, not sure how the best way to do this)
C: Raider, Kensei, Conq (these 3 need something that defines their niche in their kit. A tech or all around buff that defines them and makes them attractive when compared against the other characters in their type. Honestly I think Kensei and Raider just need better guaranteed damage rewards on GBs and they would be pretty solid, so just speed up their side heavy attacks IMO)

Again, been out of the game for a little over a month now. So I was hoping for someone who is a bit closer to the heartbeat of the meta to reply

Blasto95
04-17-2017, 05:33 PM
Raider has no place in bottom tier unless you dont know how to use him "properly". I say "properly" because with tech or exploits he can be very powerful. 2 main ones are his unlocked tech and his ability to CGB while dodging. Hes used quite often at the competitive scene now, but people arent to happy with how hes being used at all.

As it stands, Raider is right up there at top tier until Ubisoft decides what "techs" are allowed and which will be fixed.

really though, most heroes are usable. And unless youre at the very top of the competitive scene, every hero is viable. I saw iSkys got crushed by an Orochi in a tournament and hes supposed to be one of the best Wardens.

kweassa1917
04-17-2017, 05:52 PM
Raider has no place in bottom tier unless you dont know how to use him "properly". I say "properly" because with tech or exploits he can be very powerful. 2 main ones are his unlocked tech and his ability to CGB while dodging. Hes used quite often at the competitive scene now, but people arent to happy with how hes being used at all.

As it stands, Raider is right up there at top tier until Ubisoft decides what "techs" are allowed and which will be fixed.

really though, most heroes are usable. And unless youre at the very top of the competitive scene, every hero is viable. I saw iSkys got crushed by an Orochi in a tournament and hes supposed to be one of the best Wardens.

Who in their right minds puts "properly" and "exploit" in a single sentence?
The guys who use raider "properly", are the guys who stay away from bugged and glitchy shi*.

I advocate "winning through all means", but bug exploits aren't "means". It's scumbaggery.

Peligrad
04-17-2017, 06:51 PM
I'm not familiar with the Raider cheese, but I tend to agree that the game "should" play out in an intuitive manner and exploits should be eliminated.

I've known since release that this game would have player-base issues. The game inherently has a steep skill curve. The matchmaking is bad. The tutorials are insufficient.

I had hoped that Ubi would remove the cheese from the game and make combat intuitive and immersive. A lot of cheese is still in the game and to get good you have to do a fair amount of independent research/optimization and "exploit" the game mechanics rather than have a "more organic" combat experience.

IMO zone attacks should be used for killing minions exclusively. Not be used as cheesy dueling tools. The focus of the game should be the "art of war" system. Not the defensive turtle meta where parry/GB mechanics dominate duels.

I honestly believe that I could fix this game in a month and win a substantial amount of the player-base back. But I don't have much confidence in the Ubi team tbh.

Blasto95
04-17-2017, 07:05 PM
Who in their right minds puts "properly" and "exploit" in a single sentence?
The guys who use raider "properly", are the guys who stay away from bugged and glitchy shi*.

I advocate "winning through all means", but bug exploits aren't "means". It's scumbaggery.

Trust me I agree with you, but there are exploits and "techs" that have never been acknowledged by Ubisoft. So tournament organizers use their own discretion and more often then not they allow it because it can be really hard to keep track of. The zone flicker is a great example. That has been known for months, yet tournament organizers are just now picking up the signs when people are blatantly doing it. Ubisoft...still no word.

So I cant blame a competitive player for playing they way Ubisoft and tournament organizers allow them. They look like moves that should not be intended but until Ubisoft does something, dont blame the competitors.

SK-LorD4rk
04-17-2017, 10:17 PM
S: PK (to be addressed in upcoming patch)
A: Warlord, Warden, Shugoki, Valk, LB, Berserker (not sure on order)
B: Nobushi (needs her stance change sped up. other than that she's good to go IMO), Orochi (his kit just needs a little more flexibility, not sure how the best way to do this)
C: Raider, Kensei, Conq (these 3 need something that defines their niche in their kit. A tech or all around buff that defines them and makes them attractive when compared against the other characters in their type. Honestly I think Kensei and Raider just need better guaranteed damage rewards on GBs and they would be pretty solid, so just speed up their side heavy attacks IMO)

Again, been out of the game for a little over a month now. So I was hoping for someone who is a bit closer to the heartbeat of the meta to reply

Before I compile the list, lets consider that - as of now since devs are still evaluating what to do with it - anything not intended/designed in the original gameplay during their tests are simply bugs.

High level / tournament gameplay in general and patch 1.05:

T1: PK (LA spam will be fixed in 1.06)
T2: Warlord (nerfed, but still very powerful) > Warden (perfect in balance and kit imo, all other classes should be balanced around him) > Shugoki (OP in 2x2, quite capable in 1x1, but Demon Rush will be nerfed soon it seems)

We need more time to evaluate these, but they are currently in a good balance point and are very capable (maybe slightly adjustments): Berserk, Valkyrie, LB

T3: Nobushi (a slight speedup in guard stance, then we have a solid T2) > Kensei (unless you use "bugs", then a solid T2)
T4: Raider: (trash, but if you use his 'bug-kit', then a solid T2+)

Chars that need a rework: Conq and Orochi

AgentCelt
04-17-2017, 10:22 PM
Tier list:

God: Zerker

Meh: Raider, Valk, Warlord.

Scrubs: The rest.

All hail Godzerker and his valhalla brothers.

Peligrad
04-18-2017, 12:39 PM
Before I compile the list, lets consider that - as of now since devs are still evaluating what to do with it - anything not intended/designed in the original gameplay during their tests are simply bugs.

High level / tournament gameplay in general and patch 1.05:

T1: PK (LA spam will be fixed in 1.06)
T2: Warlord (nerfed, but still very powerful) > Warden (perfect in balance and kit imo, all other classes should be balanced around him) > Shugoki (OP in 2x2, quite capable in 1x1, but Demon Rush will be nerfed soon it seems)

We need more time to evaluate these, but they are currently in a good balance point and are very capable (maybe slightly adjustments): Berserk, Valkyrie, LB

T3: Nobushi (a slight speedup in guard stance, then we have a solid T2) > Kensei (unless you use "bugs", then a solid T2)
T4: Raider: (trash, but if you use his 'bug-kit', then a solid T2+)

Chars that need a rework: Conq and Orochi

Yeah that seems about right. It's very sad that "bugs" are still so prevalent in this game. And so character defining. I think most people who bought this game would say they wanted an immersive somewhat realistic melee combat game. Instead you have a big pile of cheese.