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chris455
04-15-2004, 08:00 PM
P-47 aces of the PTO, by FG, or FS, and kill number.

Note: this is not a complete list.
(but it should do for starters)
I intend to edit this as I find additional Jug aces from the PTO.

348th FG: kills

HQ Squadron:
NE Kearby..............12
RR Rowland..............8

340th FS
MM Brown................6
RH Fleischer............6
M Dikovitsky............5

341st FS
SV Blair................7
JT Moore................7
W.B. Foulis............ 6

342nd FS
W.M. Dunham ............9
W.G. Benz ..............8
E.F. Roddy .............8
G.A. Davis .............7
M.E. Grant .............7
E.S. Popek .............7
W.M. Banks .............5
R.D. Gibb ..............5
R.H. Knapp .............5
L.F. O'Neill ...........5
R.C. Sutcliffe .........5

460th FS
W.D. Dunham ............6 (not known if related to WM Dunham)

318th FG
Henry McAfee............5

507th FG
Oscar Perdomo...........5 (ace in a day, 4 Ki-84s, 1 "willow" training plane)

"Only 2 P-47 aces in the PTO" indeed. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/51.gif

source:
http://www.web-birds.com

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg

[This message was edited by chris455 on Thu April 15 2004 at 07:57 PM.]

chris455
04-15-2004, 08:00 PM
P-47 aces of the PTO, by FG, or FS, and kill number.

Note: this is not a complete list.
(but it should do for starters)
I intend to edit this as I find additional Jug aces from the PTO.

348th FG: kills

HQ Squadron:
NE Kearby..............12
RR Rowland..............8

340th FS
MM Brown................6
RH Fleischer............6
M Dikovitsky............5

341st FS
SV Blair................7
JT Moore................7
W.B. Foulis............ 6

342nd FS
W.M. Dunham ............9
W.G. Benz ..............8
E.F. Roddy .............8
G.A. Davis .............7
M.E. Grant .............7
E.S. Popek .............7
W.M. Banks .............5
R.D. Gibb ..............5
R.H. Knapp .............5
L.F. O'Neill ...........5
R.C. Sutcliffe .........5

460th FS
W.D. Dunham ............6 (not known if related to WM Dunham)

318th FG
Henry McAfee............5

507th FG
Oscar Perdomo...........5 (ace in a day, 4 Ki-84s, 1 "willow" training plane)

"Only 2 P-47 aces in the PTO" indeed. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/51.gif

source:
http://www.web-birds.com

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg

[This message was edited by chris455 on Thu April 15 2004 at 07:57 PM.]

VW-IceFire
04-15-2004, 09:20 PM
Well done! Jug is a great plane...served with distinction in both theaters.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/tmv-sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

heywooood
04-15-2004, 09:38 PM
'Fraid I didn't get the memo... does chris455 love the jug?,.. or what.

nice list.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

have the skinners done all of these yet?
I'd like to be able to see these Juggies!

GK.
04-15-2004, 09:40 PM
could you provide a direct link to your information? Kearby is recognized by several sources as accumulating 22 victories.

http://data.photodump.com/gk/shidensig.jpg

chris455
04-15-2004, 10:13 PM
GK, I did provide a link. It is found at the end of the post. Simply click on the link and navigate to whatever unit you wish to review.

The discrepancy you note is due to the fact that only kills recorded by an individual while serving in the unit indicated above his name are shown. Later kills may have been scored in other units, and are not listed here. Since it was you who has has repeatedly fostered the disinformation that there were "only about two" P-47 aces in the PTO, and that "the P-47 barely saw combat in the Pacific" I am not at all surprised to see you are now questioning my material.

Question as much as you wish. The facts are now made known. You have been proven wrong. I hope you will not attempt to deny these brave men their historical due again- and if you do, I (and probably others as well) will be there to set the record straight again, and again, until you "get it".

Get it?

Chris

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg

GK.
04-15-2004, 10:18 PM
I said I could only think of two. The kill counts of the others you have listed are insignificant. And I still stand by what I have said, and proven with reliable sources, the p47 did not see a significant amount of combat in the PTO regardless of how many units were outfitted with p47s.

EDIT: haha the aces you listed did not all exclusively fly the p47, most flew the p51. Another failed attempt to proove me wrong, but good effort, i respect that.

http://data.photodump.com/gk/shidensig.jpg

chris455
04-15-2004, 10:25 PM
In case anyone is wondering what this poor guy said to pi$$ me off so bad:

[QUOTE] by GK:
"posted 15-04-04 09:46
The difference is, the shiden and shiden-kai saw significantly more combat than your flying hog. There are numerous japanese aces that flew the george as opposed to just 2 p47 aces. While the george came a little later in '43, it still saw combat because japan was on the defensive and did not need extreme ranges like the americans did. The lack of long range flight was where the p47 suffered and even when the p47N model came, the japanese lacked fighters that could compete at such an alititude so the superfortresses rarely met opposition. Im trying to be as objective as possible and present you with facts and evidence but it seems you just cant be reasoned with. Thanks for playing. You just got <owned>".

BTW- Almost all of the aces in the list flew the Jug from Summer '43 to May '45, when the 348th transitioned to Mustangs. The war ended in September. You figure it out what plane they spent the most time flying and fighting in.

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg

GK.
04-15-2004, 10:26 PM
Also they are all from the 348th fighter group, the only p47 outfit that barely saw combat. Keep making a fool of yourself plz. *munch* *munch*

http://data.photodump.com/gk/shidensig.jpg

chris455
04-15-2004, 10:37 PM
GK,
You're forgetting the 318th FG and all it's squadrons. And the 325th FG and all it's squadrons. And the 507th FG and all it's squadrons. On top of the already mentioned 348th.
Now, what airplane "barely saw combat in the PTO"?
How many P-47 aces were there in the Pacific?

Face it M8, you've been "owned".

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg

luthier1
04-15-2004, 10:41 PM
If both of you guys didn't exhaggerate as much to make your points stronger maybe you wouldn't be having this argument.

P-47 did obviously see service in the Pacific, however it did not have nearly as much impact there as it did in the ETO.

Now kiss and make up.

http://www.il2center.com/PF.jpg

GK.
04-15-2004, 10:46 PM
Those squadrons were "equipped" with p47s at some point in time, however, the majority of their kills were scored in p38s, or p40s. You have no evidence to proove that they saw action in the p47. Until you show me a list (and evidence) that aces in squadrons OTHER than the 348th FG had kill counts over 10 EXCLUSIVELY in p47s, I have not been owned.
Good luck.

http://data.photodump.com/gk/shidensig.jpg

chris455
04-15-2004, 10:49 PM
Damn Luthier,
Just when I had him about to yell "uncle"! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I think the spirit of your message is "chill out guys". Am I right?
Probably a good idea. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/93.gif
Chris

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg

GK.
04-15-2004, 10:49 PM
Exagerating makes it fun. I will apologize after chris admits hes wrong http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://data.photodump.com/gk/shidensig.jpg

chris455
04-15-2004, 10:52 PM
Bring a lunch along, GK. You're in for the wait of a lifetime. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Its' kinda funny; seeing your Shiden and my Jug again and again post after post kinda looks like we're in a dogfight. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg

luthier1
04-15-2004, 10:57 PM
http://www.il2center.com/Rams.gif

http://www.il2center.com/PF.jpg

chris455
04-15-2004, 11:02 PM
I'm the one with the big..........horns. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

Luthier, I don't know if you got my e-mail , I have ordered a reference book on Japanese landing craft (Daihatsus); if there are any good 3 views or photos I will either scan and e-mail or send you the book. Are you in the States or Russia or ???
Chris

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg

luthier1
04-15-2004, 11:04 PM
I've been sick as a dog for two days, trying to catch up now on everything. Will get back to you in a while. I'm in NYC.

http://www.il2center.com/PF.jpg

chris455
04-15-2004, 11:07 PM
I'm sorry to hear that, I warned you about those booth babes! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

As soon as the book is delivered I'll check it for content and e-mail you. I'm pretty optimistic there will be something on the Daihatsu you can use.
Hope you feel better-

Chris

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg

GK.
04-16-2004, 12:04 AM
lol in due time. We will meet in the virtual skies and settle this once and for all. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://data.photodump.com/gk/shidensig.jpg

Giganoni
04-16-2004, 01:29 AM
Chris what makes your website credible? I'm just curious..I only looked at the front page, where does it get its info? I'm just curious because it could be good sources.

chris455
04-16-2004, 08:31 AM
Giganoni,
For each FG listed at web-birds, a seperate list of sorces is given on site.
The USAF Historical Museum is routinely listed as well as books such as "Kearby"s Thunderbolts", etc.
S!

[This message was edited by chris455 on Fri April 16 2004 at 07:51 AM.]

Ruy Horta
04-16-2004, 09:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Giganoni:
Chris what makes your website credible? I'm just curious..I only looked at the front page, where does it get its info? I'm just curious because it could be good sources.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

According to:

STARS & BARS
A Tribute to the American Fighter Ace 1920-1973
Frank Olynyk

Kearby, Neel Earnest
22/0/2 All in P-47D, between Sep 4th '43 and Mar 5th '44

Rowland, Robert Richard
8/0/0 All in P-47D, between Oct 12th '43 and Feb 27th '44

Brown, Meade Marsh
6/1/0 All in P-47D, between Dec 3rd '43 and Dec 24th '44

Fleischer, Richard Henry
6/0/0 All in P-47D, between Dec 27th '43 and Jun 3rd '44

Dikovitsky, Michael
5/0/0 All in P-47D, between Feb 3rd '44 and Dec 22nd '44

Blair, Samuel Vernon
7/0/0 All in P-47D, between Oct 23rd '43 and Mar 5th '44

...

It looks like the names match well, only real discrepency this far is Kearby's score, indeed 22 - all in the Thunderbolt.

Just an attempt to double check.

Ruy Horta

JAS_Gripen
04-16-2004, 10:31 AM
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/osp_img/titlecovers/P7805AS.JPG

According to the above, P-38 jocks were most unhappy if they had to fly P-47.

Korolov
04-16-2004, 11:20 AM
Make note that most P-47 units in the PTO were forced to switch over the P-38's not because they didn't like the P-47, but because the P-47 lacked the range required.

Nevertheless, there were numerous P-47's and aces in the PTO, and those who believe differently need to pick up a book on the PTO.

A few examples from the Southwestern Pacific:

Capt. Marvin Grant of 342nd Squadron, 348 FG (7 victories)

Alvaro J. Hunter of 40th Squadron, 35 FG (5 victories)

William D. Dunham 342nd & 460th, 348 FG (16 victories)

All of the FG's above were either converted from P-39's to P-47s, or strictly P-47.

This is from the book "Aces of the Southwest Pacific" by Gene Stafford. The aces above have already been listed by chris.

The P-47's came about when General George Kenney was trying to squeeze more P-38's out of Washington. He couldn't get any, but he did manage to get a group of P-47s.

No doubt about it, the P-47 didn't get as much press in the PTO as the P-38, but it was there, and in large numbers. This especially holds true for the latter part of the war.

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/newsig1.jpg

chris455
04-16-2004, 04:16 PM
Rhorta and Korolov,

My wish was to remember some brave men who fought a lonely war over an azure sea many years before most of us were born.

The thought that someone could dismiss their deeds and their courage as never having happened was too much for me to sit by and do nothing.

Thank you for acknowledging their bravery and their memory with me- I know they would appreciate it. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/p47n2.jpg

[This message was edited by chris455 on Fri April 16 2004 at 03:26 PM.]

heywooood
04-16-2004, 04:18 PM
You are very passionate about this,chris.

I'll give you that for sure http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

chris455
04-16-2004, 04:23 PM
Thank you, Heywood

My father served in the South Pacific.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by heywooood:
You are very passionate about this,chris.

I'll give you that for sure http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/p47n2.jpg

Rebel_Yell_21
04-16-2004, 04:25 PM
And its easy to be passionate when you're right and the facts support you.....

http://www.flyvintage.com/img/backdrops/p-51d_big_beautiful_doll/thumb.jpg

necrobaron
04-16-2004, 05:22 PM
Here's an interesting link on P-47s in the Pacific.

http://www.westviewpress.com/fireinthesky/p-47.html

"Not all who wander are lost."

VF-3Thunderboy
04-16-2004, 10:17 PM
Basicly the P-47 is a high altitude ship. It has a lousy climb, so its not alot of fun in a dogfight. But it was #1 in ETO, from what I hear.The P-38 took to long to get into "gear" in combat when attacked, and (limited PILOT TRAINING) MESSED up its record in the ETO.

Just the opposite in the PTO! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Im not a big fan of the 1% P-47s, (PTO), Id rather be in a Hellcat, wildcat,corsair,p-38, etc...

GK.
04-16-2004, 10:45 PM
Interesting read necrobaron, thanks!
Here are some interesting quotes"

"The Jug had a poor climb rate and was clumsy while traveling low and slow. To make matters worse, although the Jug carried considerably more fuel than a P 40, the weight and poor fuel economy meant the early P 47's range did not surpass even the P 40's. An overstuffed, clumsy aircraft with poor range was not what USAAF officers lusted after. "

"When P 47s were ready to move into theater in sizable numbers in summer 1943, their range surpassed that of the P 40 (but never equaled that of the P 38)."

"(It is a reasonable assumption that had USAAF pilots in the Pacific confronted more high-flying Tonys that the Jug would have been more popular than it was in the theater.) "

It is no wonder then that the p47 saw limited service and combat in the pacific. Thanks for clearing that up. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

http://data.photodump.com/gk/shidensig.jpg
*Proud Chute Shooter*

chris455
04-16-2004, 11:31 PM
http://members.cox.net/miataman1/infoministerMOD1%20copy.jpg

necrobaron
04-16-2004, 11:34 PM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I hereby declare GK the master of the selective quote.

"Not all who wander are lost."

Ruy Horta
04-17-2004, 01:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by chris455:
Rhorta and Korolov,

My wish was to remember some brave men who fought a lonely war over an azure sea many years before most of us were born.

The thought that someone could dismiss their deeds and their courage as never having happened was too much for me to sit by and do nothing.

Thank you for acknowledging their bravery and their memory with me- I know they would appreciate it. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're more than welcome Chris, especially judging by your follow-up post!

I try to maintain an objective view when it comes to historical (air) combat. In this case you have the records on your side. Next time we may be at odds http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

And you are right - the presence of veterans humbles you.

Ruy Horta

Korolov
04-17-2004, 02:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GK.:
It is no wonder then that the p47 saw limited service and combat in the pacific. Thanks for clearing that up. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Troll. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/newsig1.jpg