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View Full Version : Thoughts on changes to Warden.



MercenaryJames
04-15-2017, 04:15 PM
Firstly, I just want to say I'm a Warden main. Personally I don't understand the Warden Vortex being so flamed compared to other characters, in fact I find it ironic considering what the new patch will bring. The Lawbringer buff/bug fix to his shove is basically giving him the Warden Vortex 50/50. Where you take the shove and take the light attack, or dodge the light and be open to guard break. But that's not why I'm posting this, since the Warden is getting a change regardless I thought I might make a suggestion as to possibly changing the moveset.

Instead of the Warden cancelling into a Guardbreak, perhaps giving him a different move. I suggest changing it into a Pommel Strike Stun. So after your two-hit side light, you move into SB, then you can cancel into a Pommel Strike, with the Warden hitting for light damage that allows for a possible follow up (Not guaranteed). I feel that Warden despite using the Longsword doesn't really utilize his weapon (outside of hitting minions) during his combos, and this would still give him some mix up, without fully sacrificing his potential.

I'm sure there could be more to this, this is just something that popped into my head. If anyone has any thoughts or suggestions I'd love to discuss it. But I feel that while it can be cheap that he gets this 50/50, I feel it's not as terrible compared to other spams out there. That it's getting the fire now, because the community is moving down the line. Warden is one of the few characters right now who can break the Turtle Meta, and I'd hate to see that taken from him.

DrExtrem
04-15-2017, 04:26 PM
A change is needed but you have to be extremely careful.

The rest of the wardens kit is average at best. The dash is trash, the heavies are among the slowest in the game, not even the side lights are great and the warden has no disoriented, stun or other special effects to offer a tactical option.

In botmatches, the charge is useless and more dangerous to the user, than it is for the enemy.

cragar212
04-15-2017, 04:38 PM
Well we don't even know what the nerf is, its probly just a stam cost increase.


A change is needed but you have to be extremely careful.

The rest of the wardens kit is average at best. The dash is trash, the heavies are among the slowest in the game, not even the side lights are great and the warden has no disoriented, stun or other special effects to offer a tactical option.

In botmatches, the charge is useless and more dangerous to the user, than it is for the enemy.

This simply isn't true. Guys like tru3 ta1ent will often stream warden gameplay with only using the SB regularly and no cancel into. Playing this way they still usually can beat alot of top players. Removing the vortex would bump him down to middle tier but that's what we want isn't it?

CandleInTheDark
04-15-2017, 04:52 PM
To be brutally honest I am a little less sympathetic than I would otherwise be. I am not going to say for one second the peacekeeper didn't need nerfing, I have made a lot of noise on here that the light spam is what needs to be dealt with and I have her to rep 4, but it is streamers who mained the other overpowered characters who pulled their low level peacekeeper in tournament stunts and helped fan the hatred so high she may never overcome that with a good number of people even when she is balanced as she needs to be (though I will also say 'high level play' as was shown on the Den last night hasn't helped that either). I am always going to see comments that my main carries me, I am always going to have people so salty they lost to me just because I am a peacekeeper they send hate mail, there are always going to be people calling for her to be deleted because streamers say she is op and at least part of that is on them,it sure as heck isn't on me, I've always tried to use her kit properly. There is a thing about witchhunts, sooner or later they run out of witches and who do they go after then? Once she got some attention, people were soon enough going to switch to the others considered overpowered also.

In terms of the subject at hand, I have played the warden to rep one and I know how easy it is to take half a life bar with the opponent having no say in the matter,I did it, I decided to change my game to only throw it occasionally and not heavily exploit the 50/50, I still got wins and found them more satisfactory.He has a good feint game, not as good as the kensei's but he can feint to draw crushing counter strike opportunities or to draw dodges to guardbreak. Personally I would like to see all the spam moves and especially all the exploits dealt with,

DrExtrem
04-15-2017, 05:23 PM
Well we don't even know what the nerf is, its probly just a stam cost increase.



This simply isn't true. Guys like tru3 ta1ent will often stream warden gameplay with only using the SB regularly and no cancel into. Playing this way they still usually can beat alot of top players. Removing the vortex would bump him down to middle tier but that's what we want isn't it?

Tru3ta1ent is not really the average player you know.

The warden is not really mobile. The dashes and dodges are short. The heavy strikes are slow and only the upper light is fast.

I am all in for a change - I guess you misinterpreted my statement. I only wanted to point out, that you have to be careful with changes to a move, that makes the character very strong - see conqueror. That hero went from op to trash tier.

Again tru3la1ent is not the standard - he could beat most of us with one hand tied to his back and the shoulder bash is not strong against bits, because they can use a one frame time window to dodge - something, a human can only do by accident.

Again - a change is needed but it has to be done carefully.

DovaahisPGM
04-15-2017, 05:43 PM
They will nerf him but they will not give him something in return just like the conq i assume :cool:
Can't wait to see how they will fail this too.

Dr-KaBoom
04-15-2017, 06:19 PM
To answer your question about LB, the devs are not very smart and are going to create another toxic hero like the Warden. Just because the devs are making terrible decisions on other classes doesn't mean Warden is currently okay. Stop playing Warden 24/7 and play a class like Kensei and get your eyes opened.

teksuo1
04-15-2017, 06:26 PM
keep the vortex the same if you want but let me roll without losing stamina :rolleyes:

Oupyz
04-15-2017, 07:22 PM
they need to remove the 50/50 from warden/shugoki/valkries/ and not to give to lawbringer


thus the game will be much more balanced

or keep it and give the rest of the classes 50 50 and make it a guess game

decide what does the community want

DrExtrem
04-15-2017, 07:39 PM
Take away the 50/50

Change the follow up to a new strike:

Cross guard strike. Guard break after a single light attack, results in a smash to the face with the cross guard. This disorients the target for a short amount of time. Can not be chained.

Oupyz
04-15-2017, 07:55 PM
Watch it how valkry will be top of the top if they keep her 50/50 and take away warden and shugoki one

Lumina-US
04-15-2017, 08:10 PM
Watch it how valkry will be top of the top if they keep her 50/50 and take away warden and shugoki oneOhh, look who's back...

So you are going to complain about that next, as you did for the Warden and Shugoki just yesterday?

Oupyz
04-15-2017, 08:42 PM
Ohh, look who's back...

So you are going to complain about that next, as you did for the Warden and Shugoki just yesterday?



if my main has a 50/50 i would ask the dev to take it away asap , see what i did there , i'am trying to fix the game for you guys


i'm not complaining just to complain , i'am complaining to try to achieve a better balance

sooner or later you will start to understand and agree with me :) (hopefully ) the sooner the better

Lumina-US
04-15-2017, 08:50 PM
if my main has a 50/50 i would ask the dev to take it away asap , see what i did there , i'am trying to fix the game for you guys


i'm not complaining just to complain , i'am complaining to try to achieve a better balance

sooner or later you will start to understand and agree with me :) (hopefully ) the sooner the betterSo you main a Valk who has been buffed to a spear and shield bash spaming-powerhouse, from South Park to Valhalla and back, but have yet the "guts" to complain about the Wardens shoulder- and the Shugokis Oni-charge being too OP? - don't make me laugh like that ever again mkay......

cragar212
04-15-2017, 11:07 PM
if my main has a 50/50 i would ask the dev to take it away asap , see what i did there , i'am trying to fix the game for you guys


i'm not complaining just to complain , i'am complaining to try to achieve a better balance

sooner or later you will start to understand and agree with me :) (hopefully ) the sooner the better

Well there is a big difference between a 50/50 and a vortex.

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Glossary_of_fighting_games

CrimsonWolf753
04-15-2017, 11:14 PM
Firstly, I just want to say I'm a Warden main. Personally I don't understand the Warden Vortex being so flamed compared to other characters, in fact I find it ironic considering what the new patch will bring. The Lawbringer buff/bug fix to his shove is basically giving him the Warden Vortex 50/50. Where you take the shove and take the light attack, or dodge the light and be open to guard break.



The Lawbringer's shove is not a true vortex, you need to get hit by it first. If you dodge the initial shove you can punish the LB.

The warden creates the vortex from nothing, without even connecting any kind of attack first. It's just an automatic 50/50 with warden as soon as he initiates shoulder bash.

The LB can't cancel his shove mid shove and guardbreak his dodging opponent like a warden can with bash. Nice try buddy.

A4einboy
04-15-2017, 11:43 PM
the shoulder bash needs looking into .... its a 50/50 and no other class has that plus it dosnt consume enough stamina...nerf the shoulder bash devs

Oupyz
04-16-2017, 01:33 AM
So you main a Valk who has been buffed to a spear and shield bash spaming-powerhouse, from South Park to Valhalla and back, but have yet the "guts" to complain about the Wardens shoulder- and the Shugokis Oni-charge being too OP? - don't make me laugh like that ever again mkay......

https://fhtracker.com/profile/pc/Oupyz/heroes

i play a low tier class , which is the Nuboshi

so basicaly i haven't touched valk yet :)

i hope i always make you laugh and smile

Netcode_err_404
04-16-2017, 03:21 AM
The nerf is appreciated, but they should give him something in return less broken, but able to help them.

If they just mindless nerf, ppl will just play warlords to abuse the spam.


Said that, I'm waiting they will fix LB light after shove, The guaranteed light was not needed, and im tired sick of people who just turtle and abuse it.

Im starting to think make the hit directions visible was a mistake.

To be complete honest, doen't really mattesr how your class performs, if you train to parry, you are unstoppable with most of the classes.


Right now, an ultra parry god warden is just unstoppable because has an insane OP parry, + shoulder spam.

SerArthur-Dayne
04-16-2017, 05:18 AM
They dont need to nerf warden, they need to drastically reduce the cost of rolling for everyone. I dont get why people think hes so OP anymore, it kinda feels like mob mentality has taken over here, and everyones just parroting the next person.

Theres plenty of ways to stop the vortex. You already have a 50/50 chance just by button mashing. Then if you actually learn what to do, at the VERY most youll get hit with the double light before getting out of it. Just interrupt it with a light attack, and if you fail to do this you can just backroll as soon as you get hit with the light attack. At worst, this move can hit you with a free light before escaping by button mashing the ROLL button (no skill required here), and at best you can swing a light attack at them to cancel it (and almost every hero can start their combo off this free light attack too).

People are complaining about a class with a very meh kit that can maybe get a free light attack in if you literally havent learnt how to play yet. And if you get vortexed by this, heres the truth, youre not good and need to learn how to play. This is self evident in the fact that people are complaining about it being an "unescapable Vortex", instead of just a free light attack sometimes. Literally advertising that they cant even mash the roll button when they are getting slapped senseless and doing nothing about it.

Meanwhile other classes like shogoki/ valk can spam grabs/bashes when theres two of them, and there is no counterplay to it. You can eat 5+ heavy attacks in a move that is unavoudable in 2v2 4v4 modes. You can get instakilled from full health + full revenge + full 108 defence gear + full revenge defence gear, in one shogki hug that hits you off screen while anothr valk/shogoki beats you to death right through his teammate.... But the class than can maybe get a free light attack against people that havent learnt the counter yet, or just rolled away is the problem.... Give me a break...

Lots of people have zero problems facing wardens, why? because they learnt how to counter it, which in essence is the entire point of the game.

Kaijudub
04-16-2017, 12:56 PM
They dont need to nerf warden, they need to drastically reduce the cost of rolling for everyone. I dont get why people think hes so OP anymore, it kinda feels like mob mentality has taken over here, and everyones just parroting the next person.

Theres plenty of ways to stop the vortex. You already have a 50/50 chance just by button mashing. Then if you actually learn what to do, at the VERY most youll get hit with the double light before getting out of it. Just interrupt it with a light attack, and if you fail to do this you can just backroll as soon as you get hit with the light attack. At worst, this move can hit you with a free light before escaping by button mashing the ROLL button (no skill required here), and at best you can swing a light attack at them to cancel it (and almost every hero can start their combo off this free light attack too).

People are complaining about a class with a very meh kit that can maybe get a free light attack in if you literally havent learnt how to play yet. And if you get vortexed by this, heres the truth, youre not good and need to learn how to play. This is self evident in the fact that people are complaining about it being an "unescapable Vortex", instead of just a free light attack sometimes. Literally advertising that they cant even mash the roll button when they are getting slapped senseless and doing nothing about it.

Meanwhile other classes like shogoki/ valk can spam grabs/bashes when theres two of them, and there is no counterplay to it. You can eat 5+ heavy attacks in a move that is unavoudable in 2v2 4v4 modes. You can get instakilled from full health + full revenge + full 108 defence gear + full revenge defence gear, in one shogki hug that hits you off screen while anothr valk/shogoki beats you to death right through his teammate.... But the class than can maybe get a free light attack against people that havent learnt the counter yet, or just rolled away is the problem.... Give me a break...

Lots of people have zero problems facing wardens, why? because they learnt how to counter it, which in essence is the entire point of the game.


EXACTLY this... I'm rep 18 on my warden, and apparently in the top 0.5%. Now make no bones, i'm no fighting god but I like to think I can handle myself in this game. Although my rep is probably time spent over skill.

I can honestly say i can't remember the last time i was actually able to fully vortex someone, it's now to the point where I use SB very rarely and if i do get it off, its a fully charged one for top heavy.

Most of the people I face in duel simply know how to evade it, so I'd end up constantly in GB if i used it and missed. It's more useful as a feint now.

It's funny because in "high level" play it's down to who can turtle best. Now this isn't me but when even my SUPER OP SB doesn't let me in there is no way to open people up. Feints are learn't very quickly and my zone takes half my stam and if blocked i'm back in a gb. I guess that leaves me to randomly spam lights then....

SO OP, that only one person has won a tourney with him and even that was 2v2 lol.... It's going to make already hard match ups basically impossible.

IAstarothI
04-16-2017, 01:06 PM
Warden nerf: no more GB after shoulder bash, so no more 50/50,

this feature is going to be inherited by the Lawbringer:

you can't block the light attack after the LB shove, so you need to dodge to avoid it, but he might GB you, the new 50/50

Netcode_err_404
04-16-2017, 04:33 PM
Warden nerf: no more GB after shoulder bash, so no more 50/50,

this feature is going to be inherited by the Lawbringer:

you can't block the light attack after the LB shove, so you need to dodge to avoid it, but he might GB you, the new 50/50

LB light after shove was a mistake. And its still considered a glitch.

Dizzy4213
04-16-2017, 05:46 PM
Firstly, I just want to say I'm a Warden main. Personally I don't understand the Warden Vortex being so flamed compared to other characters, in fact I find it ironic considering what the new patch will bring. The Lawbringer buff/bug fix to his shove is basically giving him the Warden Vortex 50/50. Where you take the shove and take the light attack, or dodge the light and be open to guard break.

The Lawbringer's 50/50 doesn't even compare to the Warden's vortex. I don't understand all the salt about this. Unlike the Warden's vortex, Lawbringer's 50/50 can be dodged on reaction. If you get shoved, as soon as you see the indicator flash dodge and then you'll be able to punish him. If nothing happens then he's going for a GB which you can tech. With Warden you can't do that, he has enough time to see that you're dodging and cancel into a GB and throw you back into the Vortex. If a Lawbringer shoves you he has to commit to one or the other. It's not a guessing game like it is with the Warden. And even if you guess right, you still can't punish the Warden. Warden's vortex is on a completely different level.

Vordred
04-16-2017, 06:24 PM
i would like to see the warden changed, not because of the vortex. but more down to just game play wise, the shoulder bash mix up gets really boring to use, and for a guy with a two handed sword, he barely uses it.

would rather get rid of the shoulder bash and give him some half swording skills, or like the murder stroke, a move your using it as a mace.

but when if you keep the shoulder bash, remove the GB cancel and instead cancel into a half swording attack.

though i know none of thise will happen, as they arn't going to redo or create new moves and animations, they are just going to keep tweaking a fiddling with what we currently have. and i think its going to end in a mess.

i really love for honour and its concept, but i think we will have to wait for the sequel to really get the goods.

CaptainPwnet
04-16-2017, 07:08 PM
Firstly, I just want to say I'm a Warden main. Personally I don't understand the Warden Vortex being so flamed compared to other characters, in fact I find it ironic considering what the new patch will bring. The Lawbringer buff/bug fix to his shove is basically giving him the Warden Vortex 50/50. Where you take the shove and take the light attack, or dodge the light and be open to guard break. But that's not why I'm posting this, since the Warden is getting a change regardless I thought I might make a suggestion as to possibly changing the moveset.

Instead of the Warden cancelling into a Guardbreak, perhaps giving him a different move. I suggest changing it into a Pommel Strike Stun. So after your two-hit side light, you move into SB, then you can cancel into a Pommel Strike, with the Warden hitting for light damage that allows for a possible follow up (Not guaranteed). I feel that Warden despite using the Longsword doesn't really utilize his weapon (outside of hitting minions) during his combos, and this would still give him some mix up, without fully sacrificing his potential.

I'm sure there could be more to this, this is just something that popped into my head. If anyone has any thoughts or suggestions I'd love to discuss it. But I feel that while it can be cheap that he gets this 50/50, I feel it's not as terrible compared to other spams out there. That it's getting the fire now, because the community is moving down the line. Warden is one of the few characters right now who can break the Turtle Meta, and I'd hate to see that taken from him.

Bolded statement is incorrect. LB shove can be avoided easily and has to be committed to ending any chance for damage. Warden can cancel bash and catch dodges on reaction making the vortex an unavoidable situation unless you have stamina to roll out. If the bash hits it gives guaranteed side lights.

If LB shove hits it's a 50/50 guess to dodge the light, or eat it. Or dodge to avoid light but risk a greater GB punish. But all of this is completely avoided by dodging the shove which can't be cancelled. Also it's not really a 50/50 either since you can dodge the light on reaction as well.

The difference may seem small but it is not.

Lumina-US
04-16-2017, 07:11 PM
i really love for honour and its concept, but i think we will have to wait for the sequel to really get the goods.Errmm... so some people here really think that, after all the SnuggleMcFuggle that happened and still keeps happening with a game that already lost more than half of it's playerbase in less than 2 months, that there'll still be a For Honor 2 made - i luled!

Netcode_err_404
04-16-2017, 07:32 PM
Errmm... so some people here really think that, after all the SnuggleMcFuggle that happened and still keeps happening with a game that already lost more than half of it's playerbase in less than 2 months, that there'll still be a For Honor 2 made - i luled!

That happened because at its curent state for honor is just more than an alpha.

If they fix this game, people will come back, not all, but a lot of them, its ****ing clear if people cannot even team up with friends, they will leave