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View Full Version : why i feel the raider's imbalance is actually a result of how the daze works



Genesiz13
04-14-2017, 05:55 PM
i feel like on theory, raider should have been pretty balanced, but in-game it didn't work out because of how the "dazed" mechanic works. looking at his moveset, it seems clear that the raider would have used the daze to reliably deal damage, given that his left, right and foward dodge attacks apply daze, he can cancel heavies into a dazing light, and a GB or running charge into a wall apply daze. however, it seems that daze was much less useful than planned. removing the attack indicator might seem like a big deal, but if you've been playing MP for a while, or just ran through the campaign on realistic once, you pretty much get used to the timings of attacks and the body language that dazed doesn't make a big difference. it's still very easy to block attacks while dazed just by watching the direction of the weapon, and as for parrying the unblockable, since it's the raider's only one and it always comes from the same direction with the same timing, parrying it while dazed isn't something so difficult. it seems that if daze wasn't in the position it is now, raider would have been much more balanced. any thoughts?

Blasto95
04-14-2017, 06:04 PM
Unfortunately Raider should not be buffed or nerfed. No hero should be touched at all. That is until they fix all these exploits and stupid "techs"

as it is right now, Raider is one of the worst or possibly one of the best depending on how you play him.

Play him how hes supposed to be and hes terrible.
Play him using exploits or "techs" and hes very cheap and unpredictable. Biggest abuser of the "Unlocked Tech"

teksuo1
04-14-2017, 07:33 PM
when they use the daze window to their advantage and feint they'll usually fool me good. i'm a little nervous at this point and i probably tried to parry that feint ; at this point i was baited and he casually parries my failed parry that turned into a fail heavy.

i could probably cancel the failed parry attempt that turned into a fail heavy but i'm not quite there yet.

They could probably use a buff yes, but their mindgames are strong as it is, imo.

their unblockable zone often fools me also. since it's unblockable i most likely will try to parry it and get baited easily.

CitizenPuddi
04-14-2017, 07:56 PM
accidental post ignoreme

ValdyKawaii
04-14-2017, 08:16 PM
Daze should work like a flash granade in cod. Just make the screen white for 1 second and also to the Orochi stun. mhm mhm. Who's with may?

kweassa1917
04-14-2017, 10:50 PM
Humor me and think about this.


Warden
- top-light/ZA 1button 50/50 spam, both very fast, difficult to counter, "safe attack"
- "vortex" 50/50 spam, guaranteed damage, despised by most players, initiative almost always on the Warden

Conqueror
- shield-bash spam, relatively quick activation, knocks down on revenge mode and has guaranteed damage, hard to punish

Warlord
- headbutt spam, difficult to read, difficult to punish, unblockable, relatively safe, knocks down on revenge, guaranteed damage

Peacekeeper
- overwhelmingly fast light attacks for average players, spammed in endless succession

Orochi
- top-light/ZA 1button 50/50 spam, both very fast, difficult to counter, "safe attack"

Shugoli
- light attack-headbutt spam, relatively difficult to counter

Lawbringer
- quick activation iunblockable, not easy to read, spammed like hell



See the pattern?

Basically, the main sources of grief in the game all share some of the following traits:

1. relatively fast activation attack, hard to read in between mix-ups of attacks
2. usually low recovery time, window of punishment small, hence considered "safe"
3. inherently unblockable
4. inherently unparriable due to being off-type attacks such as charges, headbutts, pushes, etc..
5. usually an unavoidable, guaranteed type of attack exists

Among the 7 classes I used as example above:

- Warden, Conqueror, Warlord, PK are considered true-blue OP
- Orochi was once considered OP in early phases but gradually dropped to middle tier, but still infuriates the hell out of many people
- Shugoki was recently "rediscovered" with spamming Oni charge and headbutt
- Lawbringers were never considered OP, but rather "cheesy" and definately guilty of "1-move spamming"


And then, look at the all the rest of the classes who are considered either very difficult to play, lackluster and requiring huge amounts of skill and psychology to win, considered challenging, or plain "weak".

Yes. Those 5 classes don't have any "safe"[/i] skills that are [u]difficult to fully shut out and hard to punish but still bypasses enemy defense/parry through being unblockable and unparriable that can be spammed, so that the entire play pattern revolves around it.



The true source of where balance complaints come from in FH are laid right before your eyes.,

FAST, SAFE, UNBLOCKABLE, SPAMMED ATTACKS THAT ALSO GUARANTEE ADDITIONAL DAMAGE.



Seriously, what 3D fighting game has one ever played that features a quick, jabby, relatively safe move that's also unblockable or quite difficult to counter, that can be simply spammed and then still gives you more damage that's guaranteed and always hits?

The classes that have these types of skills, are all considered "griefers" of some form. Either they are considered OP, or lame-as-hell one-skill spam to win.

CitizenPuddi
04-14-2017, 11:05 PM
The true source of where balance complaints come from in FH are laid right before your eyes.,

FAST, SAFE, UNBLOCKABLE, SPAMMED ATTACKS THAT ALSO GUARANTEE ADDITIONAL DAMAGE.





youve pretty much cracked the code

cragar212
04-14-2017, 11:13 PM
Well the fact that he doesn't get a decent punish for a GB is pretty unbalanced. You have to be able to get them to hit the wall, be in the proper guard stance so your axe wont touch the wall, be at proper range so your axe doesnt hit wall.

Then there are classes like pk that get triple stab off a GB and even more if close to wall.

Gb punishs are a huge part of this game and should have similar rewards.

Genesiz13
04-15-2017, 12:33 AM
Well the fact that he doesn't get a decent punish for a GB is pretty unbalanced. You have to be able to get them to hit the wall, be in the proper guard stance so your axe wont touch the wall, be at proper range so your axe doesnt hit wall.

Then there are classes like pk that get triple stab off a GB and even more if close to wall.

Gb punishs are a huge part of this game and should have similar rewards.


true, although you have to consider that he possibly has an easier time getting GBs. he can GB while dodging, he has so many dazing moves that improve your chances of getting a GB, he can feint a zone ( which can be started at any point), forcing the other player to attempt to parry, dodge or get hit, which he can GB during the dodge or during the parry attempt since you need a heavy to parry, and he gets a free fowards stampeding charge from GB, which is basically a throw with super distance, and that dazes if against a wall. it's more balanced in terms of how easily you can get a GB vs how much you can do with it.

Saurons_blade
04-17-2017, 12:37 PM
I think what makes the Raider suffer is his design. It doesn't really work out. He is supposed to be aggressive, using stuns and throws to hurt his enemy. And because of his huge damage potential, the Raider has a slow guardswitch speed to make his block less effective. Strong attack, weak defense. That's what he's designed for. The problem is that his strong attacks are way to easy to read. he can never use attack chains because it is very risky. he is just way to easily parried. If a Raider tries to be as aggressive as he should, he WILL get punished for it.

Currently, a Raider must be able to parry every attack that's thrown at him, no matter how fast or slow it is. Because his block is to slow, his recovery time to long. He can't effort to miss a parry, because if he does get hit, he won't be able to block the rest of the attack chain. And that's what makes the Raider so bad in the moment. Everything the Raider can do, is countering. But there are so many heroes that can do that much better than he can. Playing the Raider, feels like playing the shugoki without hyperarmor/demon grab. Like playing the Conqueror without a shield. Like playing the lawbringer without his shove. Or like playing the Nobushi without the range advantage, fast zone, fast dodge attack, hidden stance. That's why the Raider is underpowered. He is designed to be offensive, but he sucks at offense. This forces the player to be defensive, but the defense is lacking too, due to the fact that he was supposed to be aggressive.