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View Full Version : Balances Fixes and Overhauls, a better For Honor



Kaotic_CipherTV
04-14-2017, 01:06 AM
I love the game and most people can see its potential, but some development choices have obviously hindered what could have been.

Orders:

I am still pre-patch on console so I am not sure how the new orders work out, but I really hope you removed the "allied" and dominion minion killer ones out.

Mechanics:

Unblockable Spam: This is where some classes, mainly the Warden, Valkyrie, and Lawbringer, can keep you locked in a spot until you die with an ublockable attack. My fix for this is simple. Add in an increased stamina debuff. Lets say a Warden/Valk are doing a shoulder spam or leg sweep combo, If their stamina use doubles for every unblockable attack used within 5 seconds and keeps doubling they can no longer spam. This forces them to play with skill and strategy. I even tested a Lawbringer's "The Long Arm" You can do this attack (pancake flip) 10 times in a row (with no gear) until out of stam.. I would advise not putting harsher stamina costs on each move themselves because I dont want the moves to become useless. This solves the spam for all characters as long as its applied to ALL UNBLOCKABLES within a timed period. Each use of an unblockable resets the timer.

Flicker: I am surprised that this has not even been mentioned by the devs and it needs to be fixed. A flicker is when a player starts attacking from one side and does a zone attack instead (can happen with raiders jump "blind" attack) This causes the indicator to say an attack is coming from a side and then at the last second it changes to the top (or whatever direction the attack is actually coming from) A lot of people abuse this because it baits the block for a free hit.

Shugoki's super armor: While I do see why they have it, it should not break core mechanics of the game. They should not be allowed to GB someone who is mid swing just because they have this.

Revenge: Same as the super armor for shugoki. I also am glad to see that revenge has been nerfed, but I disagree with the dev team that it "will make other builds viable". In my opinion there wont be a proper replacement to this build until gear with different stats is released. Currently no other build via the stats available are worth your time. Unless you only want to throw people..

Feats and Boosts:

Feats are a neat idea but used poorly, same with boosts. Feats should be all passives (except dominion) and you shouldnt have to level up in a match to get them. If each character had 4 sets of possible passives and started the game with them all, it would add much more diversity and playstyle in the game. By doing this you can also do a much needed change to boosts that are on the map.

The only boost I feel that should stay is the health. All the others should be replaced with the feats you took from the characters. So instead of fighting for a defense or attack boost, you actually fight for catapult or a bow. This makes fights more balanced and skill based instead of having to deal with another stat increasing number that makes fights unfair. Dominion is the only mode the current setup works and can stay.

Game Modes:

Elimination: Honestly this should be called skirmish, and take skirmish out completely. Then you can add a real Elimination game mode. One where each player is put in a "locked" or blocked off area with an enemy. One wins and goes to the next room/enemy. No revives, no respawns. A true elimination.

Skirmish: Since you probably wont get rid of the game mode, get rid of the bots.. They have no place in a team deathmatch scenario. Especially the captains. They make team fights in this game mode unbearable. All they do is show up on your block indicator even if they are out of range, or they interrupt and stagger you when trying to fight a real person.

Faction War: Ive said it in another thread and il say it again. Add a real game mode for this. Instead of having all game modes generate assets for an overall passive faction war, add a game mode. The game mode would lock players into playing a character from their faction and this mode is the ONLY one that generates assets. At the end of the game they can place those assets on any territory they choose (that their faction is currently fighting for).

Customization

This is a big category that went to waste, and the following suggestions would bring this element back into the game.

Outfits: Mythic and Reputation outfits should be a completely appearance altering option. A change of color is not a change of an outfit. What is the point of having an outfit unlocked if you can go into your options and put that icon and color scheme on any way you want. It also doesnt help that the colors for these outfits are only visible in duels. Redo the whole system and make real costumes/skins. Battle and Elite are fine the way they are.

Wardrobe: Ive seen this suggested a couple of times and I completely agree with it. Every armor style that has been in your inventory should be added to a catalog. I should be allowed to customize the look of my character completely from the styles ive already unlocked. This, with an outfit change, would bring a whole new level of customization options and make each game that much more fun. Right now everyone looks the same with slight changes and it gets old. Bring some flair into the game.

I know that the focus of the team at the moment is stability and connection, but this shouldnt be dismissed completely. You have a wonderful game that has passionate players, but you need to keep them around somehow. I am looking down the road not at the now. Keep your minds open and think about it.

FrankRocco3
04-14-2017, 01:44 AM
I have played PK as my main, I am rep 5 108 gear score, I used to be able to go 25-0 and now with the recent patch it is definitely more balanced, but they didn't nerf her light attack two hit spam. There is talk of nerfing this as well and if they nerf this the character will be utterly useless, even though rn she is weak compared to warden, Valkyrie, and especially lawbringer. My PK cannot do anything against these characters and other defensive characters I just try to avoid such as conqueror bc Ik I will get wrecked. Lawbringers shove is so OP and Shugoki's super armor leads me to getting hit by hit heavy half the time. I believe that PK also needs more things added to her kit, especially more unbreakables, bc rn her only undbreakable is deflect->riposte-stab, her kit is so weak that compared to the other assassins she is useless. I completely with everything you stated, but felt like I had to add this on. Probably going to take tons of hate from talking ab how PK needs more stuff, but oh well!!!:cool::cool:

secrecy274
04-14-2017, 01:48 AM
What exacly is this Lawbringer unblockable spam that puts him at the Wardens level?

Kaotic_CipherTV
04-14-2017, 01:50 AM
I never said he was, but he is one of the three most unblockable spam characters. My solutions stops them all.

UbiNoty
04-14-2017, 02:08 AM
Hi Kaotic - thanks! We really appreciate you putting your time and effort to provide us with your feedback and I'll make sure to pass this over to the devs.
Woo, so you've brought up a lot of different points over a wide range of topics, so I can't say we can address them all right away - but we will most definitely be reading over the concerns and suggestions you've made and take them into consideration.

FrankRocco3
04-14-2017, 02:18 AM
What exacly is this Lawbringer unblockable spam that puts him at the Wardens level?

But LB is a close second, he def is Op compared to other characters bc of his combo abilities and disabling moves. Don't even get me started on warden his/her two hit light attack combo is worse than PK combo and everyone complains ab her and not warden.

I feel as if the characters that are considered "Easy" to play should have the least kit moves and combos, while the harder characters should have more. I fell as if depending on the type of character (like light, medium, and heavy) should get certain general moves.

Another quick thing, if I put say attack on my armor it should give me attack abilities or an attack pathway and if I build more of a defensive character I should be able to have more defensive abilities, making upgradable attributes. Allow the gear to change stats, but not as much, like half attributes and half gear. this would give leveling up a character more of a purpose and rep more of a purpose with attribute points. Ik ppl would say "but what if I want to change my character's attributes?", the response would be either reset at the next rep or have the attribute points allow the 3 different loadouts to be used. people could make each loadout its own setup. (Ik this was off topic, but this could level the playing field and make character customization better!!)

SAVAGE_CABBAGE1
04-14-2017, 02:18 AM
I have played PK as my main, I am rep 5 108 gear score, I used to be able to go 25-0 and now with the recent patch it is definitely more balanced, but they didn't nerf her light attack two hit spam. There is talk of nerfing this as well and if they nerf this the character will be utterly useless, even though rn she is weak compared to warden, Valkyrie, and especially lawbringer. My PK cannot do anything against these characters and other defensive characters I just try to avoid such as conqueror bc Ik I will get wrecked. Lawbringers shove is so OP and Shugoki's super armor leads me to getting hit by hit heavy half the time. I believe that PK also needs more things added to her kit, especially more unbreakables, bc rn her only undbreakable is deflect->riposte-stab, her kit is so weak that compared to the other assassins she is useless. I completely with everything you stated, but felt like I had to add this on. Probably going to take tons of hate from talking ab how PK needs more stuff, but oh well!!!:cool::cool:

Now I agree with the OP, but how is the slow uncancellable shove on the LB OP? On console PK is OP because of the zone flicker faster than human reaction time zone. She needs to be slowed down, and as consequence will need things such as a higher deflect buff to keep her viabe.

SAVAGE_CABBAGE1
04-14-2017, 02:26 AM
But LB is a close second, he def is Op compared to other characters bc of his combo abilities and disabling moves. Don't even get me started on warden his/her two hit light attack combo is worse than PK combo and everyone complains ab her and not warden.

I feel as if the characters that are considered "Easy" to play should have the least kit moves and combos, while the harder characters should have more. I fell as if depending on the type of character (like light, medium, and heavy) should get certain general moves.

Another quick thing, if I put say attack on my armor it should give me attack abilities or an attack pathway and if I build more of a defensive character I should be able to have more defensive abilities, making upgradable attributes. Allow the gear to change stats, but not as much, like half attributes and half gear. this would give leveling up a character more of a purpose and rep more of a purpose with attribute points. Ik ppl would say "but what if I want to change my character's attributes?", the response would be either reset at the next rep or have the attribute points allow the 3 different loadouts to be used. people could make each loadout its own setup. (Ik this was off topic, but this could level the playing field and make character customization better!!)

The LB pancake is too strong in team fights currently, and that could be fixed by putting a delay until you could use it again. But in 1v1 it's an incredibly weak move because if it is dodged, it nets a free GB.
What combo ability does he have? everything he has can be reacted to, and his heavies are still slow.
The Warden's 2 hit combo isn't borderline unreactable on consoles, like the PK is.

With all that said I do like your idea on the gear giving different attributes.

FrankRocco3
04-14-2017, 02:28 AM
Now I agree with the OP, but how is the slow uncancellable shove on the LB OP? On console PK is OP because of the zone flicker faster than human reaction time zone. She needs to be slowed down, and as consequence will need things such as a higher deflect buff to keep her viabe.

Rn PK is so weak in my opinion and with no real kit abilities she can't be nerfed again, her main aspect ab the character is speed, her character description I guess you would call it is fast, counter-attacker. I totally agree her two hit spam needs to have a delay of some sort, but that shouldn't but that shouldn't be nerfed until two things happen. the first being she has more combos with more unblockables and the second warden receives a nerf on his two hit spam.

LB like not listed combos, but when he opens up a character and then just constantly pushes them since it is unbreakable until the other person dodges and his chain attacks result in way too much damage output(this is just bc I play a low health person). maybe if chains like the unbreakable didn't do a guaranteed amount of damage, but a percentage. a percentage would allow a balance of the playing field

FrankRocco3
04-14-2017, 02:32 AM
The LB pancake is too strong in team fights currently, and that could be fixed by putting a delay until you could use it again. But in 1v1 it's an incredibly weak move because if it is dodged, it nets a free GB.
What combo ability does he have? everything he has can be reacted to, and his heavies are still slow.
The Warden's 2 hit combo isn't borderline unreactable on consoles, like the PK is.

With all that said I do like your idea on the gear giving different attributes.

One thing that really bugs me as I have tried LB, his parries need to be fixed

if attributed were instituted it would be great bc the ability level between players could be decreased, like the starting character could have just a balanced setup and the more experienced players have an entire customized setup, but since the only difference would be gear and the gift of customization, ppl with no gear would no longer be destroyed by 108s!!!:D:D

Kaotic_CipherTV
04-14-2017, 03:45 AM
Hi Kaotic - thanks! We really appreciate you putting your time and effort to provide us with your feedback and I'll make sure to pass this over to the devs.
Woo, so you've brought up a lot of different points over a wide range of topics, so I can't say we can address them all right away - but we will most definitely be reading over the concerns and suggestions you've made and take them into consideration.

I appreciate you taking the time to reply. I understand that the problems and suggestions I listed would not be instant or even within the next month. I like to look towards the future and what can become of the game.

The problems being worked on now are certainly more important.

Sanctus_9
04-14-2017, 05:02 AM
1.Unblockable Spam: Most of the cited examples aren't issues. Lawbringer's unblockables can all easily be reacted to and dodged. Valkyrie's is more difficult, but certainly manageable. It's also predictable, and easily prevented by simply blocking or parrying her basic attacks. Additionally, if dodged, the sweep is highly punishable. As is, it is her primary move and it makes her a strong contender among the competition, while not being imbalanced. It should not be changed. Warden, however, is a different story. I fully agree that his 50/50 vortex combo is imbalanced because it is in fact unpredictable and if you guess wrong it is unavoidable. But this is a fairly unique case.

2. Block Indicator: This is just simply a misunderstanding of gameplay mechanics. When targeting one enemy, if an additional enemy is attacking you from your right hand side, the indicator will always flash on the right because you only have to block to the right to block that enemy's attack regardless of which direction they swing in. If they are to your right, it doesn't make any difference whether they swing up, left or right, you only have to block/parry right and you will block the attack.

3.Flicker: This is an intentional mechanic for a lot of zone attacks. It's not an accident, and it doesn't happen because a player starts attacking in one direction and then zones. It just happens when they zone with heroes like warden, PK, and orochi, for example. Raider's overhead stun is the result of a unique move in which he can feint a side heavy into a quick overhead stun. This is not a zone, and is different from the rest of the examples cited. There's nothing wrong here either. Especially considering Raider already has a severely limited moveset and is widely considered to be the least competitive hero in the game. No point even bringing him up unless it's to buff him.

The rest of your points are to some degree subjective and I agree with a lot of them, including the customization bit. But as far as game mechanics, you seem inexperienced.

Kaotic_CipherTV
04-14-2017, 05:36 AM
Its not about my "experience" in the matter, or if something is working as intended. Most aspects of the game works as intended. We the community speak up and point out why it doesnt work for the game. The unblockable spam may be manageable, but it doesnt mean they shouldnt be punished for it.

I couldve sworn when the game released external attacks had their own indicators.

Even if flicker is an intended mechanic (which i couldnt find anywhere) how can you say that is a good idea? If my top indicator goes red it shouldnt switch before hit unless the move is cancelled.

But my OP still remains true on all points besides the indicator. And yes these were my opinions on the game, naturally someone will disagree to some extent.

SAVAGE_CABBAGE1
04-14-2017, 07:59 AM
One thing that really bugs me as I have tried LB, his parries need to be fixed

if attributed were instituted it would be great bc the ability level between players could be decreased, like the starting character could have just a balanced setup and the more experienced players have an entire customized setup, but since the only difference would be gear and the gift of customization, ppl with no gear would no longer be destroyed by 108s!!!:D:D

You said previously, that a PK has speed, and that's her concept so she should be safe from nerfing. By your logic the LB should be safe from a parry nerf because that's his concept.

SAVAGE_CABBAGE1
04-14-2017, 08:04 AM
Rn PK is so weak in my opinion and with no real kit abilities she can't be nerfed again, her main aspect ab the character is speed, her character description I guess you would call it is fast, counter-attacker. I totally agree her two hit spam needs to have a delay of some sort, but that shouldn't but that shouldn't be nerfed until two things happen. the first being she has more combos with more unblockables and the second warden receives a nerf on his two hit spam.

LB like not listed combos, but when he opens up a character and then just constantly pushes them since it is unbreakable until the other person dodges and his chain attacks result in way too much damage output(this is just bc I play a low health person). maybe if chains like the unbreakable didn't do a guaranteed amount of damage, but a percentage. a percentage would allow a balance of the playing field

As I said earlier, his shove is slow enough to be reacted to. The free damage bug needs to be fixed, he doesn't need that on a shove
As I also said earlier, from footage I have seen(I play on console) His heavies still look pretty slow, so chain damage from the LB shouldn't be a large issue if he is afraid to even attack you.

Kaotic_CipherTV
04-14-2017, 08:22 AM
As I said earlier, his shove is slow enough to be reacted to. The free damage bug needs to be fixed, he doesn't need that on a shove
As I also said earlier, from footage I have seen(I play on console) His heavies still look pretty slow, so chain damage from the LB shouldn't be a large issue if he is afraid to even attack you.

Im on a mission to get all characters to rep 1 atleast and LB was one I just finished. It was the most stressful character (pre-patch). His attacks are waaaay too slow. His playstyle revolves around the sad defense meta. I just hate players that use him stamina sapper and ledge thrower. I refuse to play cheap and I hated playing this character. Curious to revisit him after the patch to see if he is any better at killing. Playing the parry/block shove game is boring.

SAVAGE_CABBAGE1
04-14-2017, 09:17 AM
Im on a mission to get all characters to rep 1 atleast and LB was one I just finished. It was the most stressful character (pre-patch). His attacks are waaaay too slow. His playstyle revolves around the sad defense meta. I just hate players that use him stamina sapper and ledge thrower. I refuse to play cheap and I hated playing this character. Curious to revisit him after the patch to see if he is any better at killing. Playing the parry/block shove game is boring.

Meh, his entire concept is to parry someone, he may be better now, but if you don't like that playstyle he may not be your type of character in general.

kweassa1917
04-14-2017, 09:43 AM
1.Unblockable Spam: Most of the cited examples aren't issues. Lawbringer's unblockables can all easily be reacted to and dodged. Valkyrie's is more difficult, but certainly manageable. It's also predictable, and easily prevented by simply blocking or parrying her basic attacks. Additionally, if dodged, the sweep is highly punishable. As is, it is her primary move and it makes her a strong contender among the competition, while not being imbalanced. It should not be changed. Warden, however, is a different story. I fully agree that his 50/50 vortex combo is imbalanced because it is in fact unpredictable and if you guess wrong it is unavoidable. But this is a fairly unique case.

Mechanics wise, when you build a game you just don't allow stuff with traits like unblockable fire up quickly, nor allow it to be cost-efficient enough to be spammed. Besides, 'predictability' does not automatically equate to 'counterability'. Maybe in the very high tier circles, sure, but then I know what incredible, inhuman stuff super-high level players do in any game. From a more averaged-out perspective, around medium-level players (which the focus of balance should be laid out in the first place), the very fact that such powers are being spammed often enough to have people complain about it is a tell-tale sound of problems.

Sure, EVERYONE predicts a good Orochi will just spam two top-light or ZA. EVERYONE predicts a PK is basically gonna dodge back every time it feels is gonna be attacked, and then will jump in with the top-heavy lunge, and then start lightspamming. EVERYONE predicts the Warden will leisurely throw the ZA from any range, and then start vortexing. But that doesn't mean its any easier to adequately counter.

It basically applies to all quick-fire unblockable powers in game -- Shugoki 'tick and headbutt', Warlord headbutt, Warden shoulderbash part of the (widely despised) 'vortex,' Lawbringer shoving spam, etc etc.. and what's made worse is often, those powers will be enhanced in functionality when in revenge mode, and ofcourse revenge mode devoids you of stamina cost.... so, spam it continuously, with of course, the insufferable guaranteed moves that follow.

Normally, mechanic wise, game developers don't allow relatively safe, quick-fire powers to be 'unblockable'. Usually quick-fire powers are safe, very hard to punish, a great checking move like the left-jab in boxing, but in turn the drawbacks being low in damage, doesn't guarantee any forced combos (at least not in 3D fighting games), and etc..

TL;DR -- nobody makes a quick activating, relatively safe and easy to use attack into an "unblockable". You won't find any 3D fighting games in 20 years of the genre's history every having 'unblockable quick powers.' It's simply bad design.



3.Flicker: This is an intentional mechanic for a lot of zone attacks. It's not an accident, and it doesn't happen because a player starts attacking in one direction and then zones. It just happens when they zone with heroes like warden, PK, and orochi, for example. Raider's overhead stun is the result of a unique move in which he can feint a side heavy into a quick overhead stun. This is not a zone, and is different from the rest of the examples cited. There's nothing wrong here either. Especially considering Raider already has a severely limited moveset and is widely considered to be the least competitive hero in the game. No point even bringing him up unless it's to buff him.

It's not intended. Trust me. The way they set up the mechanics, and the basic premise of the "Art of Battle" system, makes it seem highly unlikely they intended a mechanic that bypasses that basic premise and "tricks" people in such an unexpected manner. It's an unexpected byproduct of certain moves that bring out unforeseen consequences.

SAVAGE_CABBAGE1
04-14-2017, 09:58 AM
TL;DR -- nobody makes a quick activating, relatively safe and easy to use attack into an "unblockable". You won't find any 3D fighting games in 20 years of the genre's history every having 'unblockable quick powers.' It's simply bad design.




.
So I disagree with you on the unblockable(but not the flicker mind you)
But what I like about this quote is that my main character in Blazblue has a very high damage unblockable

Kaotic_CipherTV
04-14-2017, 07:29 PM
Meh, his entire concept is to parry someone, he may be better now, but if you don't like that playstyle he may not be your type of character in general.

He most definitely is not lol. I also hate all heavy playstyles but I will get everyone to rep 1 ! Only conq and warlord left then I can go back to my samurais.

@kweassa, Thanks for the informative reply! I was half expecting a lot of hate when making this write up. Theres still things I forgot to put in this, but youve created a good conversation, so thank you.

It was also confirmed today that flicker was not intended and they are working to fix it.

Also on the unblockable: Each game obviously is going to be different in terms of design, but the devs have acknowledged that the spam is an issue they are looking to resolve. They had mentioned ideas of just flat out stamina increases but I dont think that would be a good way to solve this. Thats why I proposed my unblockables in general fix that would keep doubling the amount of stam within a time frame to force players into playing with more tactics.

SAVAGE_CABBAGE1
04-15-2017, 12:39 AM
He most definitely is not lol. I also hate all heavy playstyles but I will get everyone to rep 1 ! Only conq and warlord left then I can go back to my samurais.

@kweassa, Thanks for the informative reply! I was half expecting a lot of hate when making this write up. Theres still things I forgot to put in this, but youve created a good conversation, so thank you.

It was also confirmed today that flicker was not intended and they are working to fix it.

Also on the unblockable: Each game obviously is going to be different in terms of design, but the devs have acknowledged that the spam is an issue they are looking to resolve. They had mentioned ideas of just flat out stamina increases but I dont think that would be a good way to solve this. Thats why I proposed my unblockables in general fix that would keep doubling the amount of stam within a time frame to force players into playing with more tactics.

His moveset has the most parry options, and is classed as a counter attacker. I can't think of any other ways he can counter attack, so it would go to say parries are his concept.
I don't really think unblockables as a concept are a bad idea, however certain unblockables had a poor execution.

Kaotic_CipherTV
04-15-2017, 01:22 AM
His moveset has the most parry options, and is classed as a counter attacker. I can't think of any other ways he can counter attack, so it would go to say parries are his concept.
I don't really think unblockables as a concept are a bad idea, however certain unblockables had a poor execution.

I agree completely. And I understand the uses of many of them, just the spam capabilities are over the top. The shove is pretty harmless, but it saps stam and can be spammed on block or dash mixed with the long arm.

Valk is the most annoying imo though just because she can chain multiples repeatedly and they knock you down.

Wardens I could manage more if it wasnt so fast, cost effective, and a gamble, but most wardens i encounter arent good at the chain. Valk seems easier to achieve.

Still super excited for the future of the game.

SAVAGE_CABBAGE1
04-15-2017, 05:20 AM
I agree completely. And I understand the uses of many of them, just the spam capabilities are over the top. The shove is pretty harmless, but it saps stam and can be spammed on block or dash mixed with the long arm.

Valk is the most annoying imo though just because she can chain multiples repeatedly and they knock you down.

Wardens I could manage more if it wasnt so fast, cost effective, and a gamble, but most wardens i encounter arent good at the chain. Valk seems easier to achieve.

Still super excited for the future of the game.

It's a combo interrupter, essentially a riskier version of the long conq's block. I don't really see a problem with it as it could also be classified as a counter attack. As I said before with the long arm, if you get caught by that in a 1v1, you messed up. It's slow and gives a free GB if dodged.

I don't like the gamble idea of the warden either, it doesn't mesh with the game imo

The valk's spear sweep is inconsistent against LB, sometimes he can't dodge it at all. Idk about other characters but this may just be a LB specific and shouldn't be considered a valk problem.