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Dizzy4213
04-13-2017, 02:46 PM
Before I begin, I just want to say that the intention of this thread is not insult or bash the development team. I just wish to provide as much comprehensive feedback as possible. That being said, Ubisoft must understand that many people, myself included, are starting to lose their patience with this game. Mostly because of the lack of updates to the game.

We know you released a patch not so long ago, but to be brutally honest, it’s not enough. The fact that it has taken almost two months to fix revenge, and buff/nerf some characters is completely unacceptable. When most of it amounts to just simply tweaking a few values for heroes. Why it took nearly two months for the Lawbringer to be buffed, I’ll never know.

I want this game to succeed I really do, but unless the connection issues are resolved and we get regular gameplay updates every two weeks or so, I just don’t see that happening. I’ve seen so much great feedback since the release of this game but sadly it seems as though most of it falls on deaf ears. It wasn’t until the Blackout Community Event that you decided to properly start addressing some of the issues with the game. It’s a shame that I had to start of the thread like this, but I feel like it needs to be said.

Introduction

I know you have just recently buffed the Lawbringer but there are still a lot of issues that need to be resolved. Having watched all the Dev streams, it was my understanding that you wanted to improve the Lawbringer’s duel capability. Yet the recent buffs haven’t really done too much to help him. Don’t get me wrong, he’s a lot better than before, but now he’s just mediocre instead of trash. A much inferior version of Warlord, if you will. Yes, he fairs better in 4v4 game modes, but let me remind you that heroes should not be balanced around a specific game mode. A hero that is great in duels will be just as great in 4v4 modes.

Now with that out of the way I can hopefully provide some productive feedback to the problems currently plaguing the Lawbringer.

Issues that need to be fixed

1. He has no openers. Much like Kensei, the Lawbringer struggles immensely at trying to open up a defensive opponent. Although unlike Kensei, the Lawbringer doesn’t have a strong feint game or great mix-ups. His only opening attack is a top light, so if the opponent is always blocking in that direction it becomes quite difficult to get an attack in. Of course you can feint but the Lawbringer eats through Stamina so it’s not something that can be done frequently. Even more so against an opponent with stamina damaging moves.

Possible Solution: Make his first side light attack speed the same speed as his top light. Or at the very least, make his side light attacks a little bit faster than they are now.

2. Guard breaking heavy attacks. This issue is beyond frustrating as every one of the Lawbringer’s chains has heavy attacks. The only other hero I’ve noticed this to also be a problem on is the Raider. I’ve never been able to guard break someone during a heavy attack but it happens to me most of the time when playing Lawbringer. I’ve even been guard broken during my unblockable. I’m not sure if it’s because his heavies are too slow or if there is another underlying issue that could be causing this, but either way it seriously needs to be fixed.

3. The Long Arm. Despite being buffed this move is still not worth using. You have no chance of ever landing a Long Arm against a competent opponent for three reasons. The first being that it’s extremely telegraphed. The second is that it’s too slow. The third is that it can be dodged at the last moment.

Possible Solution: I’ve seen many suggest that the Long Arm should have hyper-armour and to that I disagree. It will not solve anything. The Long Arm needs to be a lot faster than it is currently. Making it the same speed as Valkyrie’s Sweep will significantly improve your chances landing a Long Arm as it would then have to be dodged on reaction. With the way it is now, even if you didn’t see the Long Arm coming, you still have a lot of time to dodge.

4. The Phantom Swing. Many Lawbringers have experienced this all too often. It’s especially noticeable on his unblockable attack. More often than not, my attack will simply phase through my opponent instead of hitting them. In case you’re wondering what I’m talking about, you can see this issue here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqcPtovp9Q8

Possible Solution: Fix the Lawbringer’s range, plain and simple. Sometime I wonder if I’m wielding a dagger instead of a pole-axe.

Buffs and Quality of Life changes

First Light Attack: As previously said, making his side lights as fast as his top light would allow Lawbringer to be a bit more offensive. It’s hard to get the first hit in if the opponent is smart and is constantly blocking top, to stop his top light attack.

The Long Arm: As previously said, having its speed increased would dramatically increase the usability of this move. The only thing I’d like to see added to this, is the ability for Long Arm to start chains. That way, if I land a Long Arm I can use a side heavy and them go straight into my unblockable and my opponent will have to guess whether or not I’m going to feint it. It’s a nice small change to the Long Arm that would make it worth the risk.

Judge, Jury and Executioner (LHH): I know that the first heavy in the Judge, Jury and Executioner was slightly sped up, but there are some minor issues with it. Firstly, both the top heavy and side heavy do the same damage, which just isn't right. Since the top heavy is slower, it should by default, be doing more damage than the side heavy. Secondly, the first heavy only does 20 damage which I don't think is acceptable as it’s only 5 more damage than a light attack and is also much slower. Most heavy attacks in the game do 30 or more damage so I don't understand why it's still so low. As such, it would be helpful if this was brought up to standard with his other heavy attacks.

Swift Justice (HLH): Is there any reason why the heavy attacks in this chain weren’t sped up like his other chains? I just don’t understand why you would increase the speed of his heavy attacks for his other two chains but leave this one out. In addition, just like the Judge, Jury and Executioner combo. Both the top heavy and side heavy do the same damage. The top heavy needs to do more damage than the side heavy to warrant the slower attack speed.

List of Bugs

Guard Switch Speed: All guard switch speeds need to be normalized. Lawbringer, along with Raider, Nobushi and Shugoki. Have the slowest guard switch speed in the game. Making it difficult to block fast attacking heroes.

Make Way: I’ve already made a thread about this here: http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1624816-Make-Way-Still-Isn-t-Fixed
Ubisoft are aware of this so it should hopefully be fixed soon.

Make Way/Impaling Riposte still not guaranteed: I wish I could find the video now, but these two moves can be blocked after a parry. Even if you get the timing right. I think you should double check this to make sure it’s working as intended, because it feels extremely inconsistent in its current state.

Revenge Shove: While in Revenge, if you use Shove on an opponent, they can avoid falling down by back dashing just as the Shove connects.

Revenge Shove Followup: While in Revenge, if you used Shove on an opponent and they fell down, you could followup with a side heavy then straight into your unblockable. After the patch, it seems like shove now knocks them back farther making you unable to land a side heavy right after the shove. This is a pretty big nerf to Lawbringer so I'd like to think it's unintentional.

Light Riposte: This allows you to starts chains but this moves is partially broken. The only chains you can combo into after it is: Judge, Jury and Executioner (LHH) and Book, Chapter and Verse (LHL). It does not allow you to combo into the chain Swift Justice (HLH). Light Riposte is supposed to start a chain but when I try to use Swift Justice after it, it doesn't let me follow up with the light attack, and instead starts a new chain. It should be Light Riposte, light attack and then heavy.

Shove off of Swift Justice Finisher: The Swift Justice combo (HLH) allows you to shove after the last heavy, but only if it is a top heavy. If you’re last attack is a side heavy, you can not use shove after it. This seems like an oversight so it would be great if this could get fixed to make the Lawbringer more consistent.

Light Attack after Shove: I assume you’re probably aware of this bug right now, where the Lawbringer is able to get a guaranteed light after a shove. Yes, I know it’s not exactly guaranteed and can still be blocked but I’m pretty confident that this was unintentional and so will most likely be patched in the next update.

My stance on this particular bug
I have very mixed feelings about this. On one hand, some players would like to keep the guaranteed light after shove, as it would make the Lawbringer able to go on the offensive. On the other hand, some players don’t like it, as it more or less makes the Lawbringer just like the Warlord. I can see both sides to this argument but what I will say is this. If you decide to turn this bug into an actual thing and allow the Lawbringer a guaranteed light attack after a shove then there needs to be a small change. The guaranteed light must not work after a block into shove. Otherwise, the Lawbringer will become the Turtle God. That being said, I don’t think allowing it to be guaranteed after a dodge shove would be too much of an issue. Since the shove is much slower than Warlord’s headbutt and has little to no tracking so it’s easily dodged and punishable.

Final Words

I spent a few hours putting this together, so I would appreciate it, if you could also provide as much feedback as possible. These are my personal issues with the Lawbringer, so I know not everyone is going to agree with me which is understandable. I spent a long time thinking about what changes could be made to the Lawbringer to make him more viable in duels and brawls, but also not be too overwhelming like the Top 4 heroes. I know that some might disagree with me, but I don’t think anything I have suggested would make the Lawbringer so overpowered to the point where everyone and their mother complains about him. He would be a bit stronger for sure, but definitely not broken by any means. I was careful not to suggest anything that would be too drastic and unreasonable, such as giving him a 50/50 like Warden or Shugoki.

I absolutely love the Lawbringer and want him to be viable in duels/brawls. I just really hope that Ubisoft takes everything into consideration. In the end, it’s up to them to decide what does and does not happen.

Thanks for reading ;)

SAVAGE_CABBAGE1
04-13-2017, 02:54 PM
Quick question, what platform do you lay on?

cragar212
04-13-2017, 03:05 PM
It baffles me how this balance patch took them 2 months when almost all the changes were just adjusting values on various moves.

I assumed they would try to bring all characters to middle tier. Warlord and peacekeeper are still top tier and conqueror is pretty much bottom tier now. /shrug

kanuzira
04-13-2017, 03:58 PM
I also made a thread in the knights part. I think we need new attacks to to be more versatile. All our moves are just plain and easy to counter if you just follow the pointers. We need mix ups like raider and valk. To he honest, all heroes should get more moves than they currently have since all the moves are pretty basic. And maybe they could add something as an extra button that instead of shoving you can grab after a jump.

Dizzy4213
04-13-2017, 08:52 PM
I also made a thread in the knights part. I think we need new attacks to to be more versatile. All our moves are just plain and easy to counter if you just follow the pointers. We need mix ups like raider and valk. To he honest, all heroes should get more moves than they currently have since all the moves are pretty basic. And maybe they could add something as an extra button that instead of shoving you can grab after a jump.

I don't think new attacks will solve anything. It will be nice for sure, but every hero could do with new attacks. More mix-ups would be nice but it needs be reasonable. Thats why I suggested allowing the Long Arm to starts chains so that the unblockable heavy could be feinted as the opponent is getting up and they would have to decide whether or not to risk parrying it.

I'm sure there might be something else that could be added to hit kit, but I don't have any ideas right now. I think it's important that his core problems are fixed before moving on to anything else.

SAVAGE_CABBAGE1
04-13-2017, 10:59 PM
I don't think new attacks will solve anything. It will be nice for sure, but every hero could do with new attacks. More mix-ups would be nice but it needs be reasonable. Thats why I suggested allowing the Long Arm to starts chains so that the unblockable heavy could be feinted as the opponent is getting up and they would have to decide whether or not to risk parrying it.

I'm sure there might be something else that could be added to hit kit, but I don't have any ideas right now. I think it's important that his core problems are fixed before moving on to anything else.

That would be god, but before any of that happens, the devs need to balance the already existing moves

eliteslayer66
04-13-2017, 11:01 PM
It makes me sad that the few changes to law that might have been useful don't work properly and there is still no guard stance change which he needs to be a more consistent counter-attacker.

UbiNoty
04-13-2017, 11:33 PM
Hi Dizzy:
I really appreciate the time and thought you put into your post and I will most definitely be passing your thread over along to the team.
Question: You've brought up a ton of points to think about, but in essence, do you think the slowness of his kit is the fundamental problem that's gating the LB's viability as a hero?

secrecy274
04-13-2017, 11:58 PM
I have to add, I don't think they actually have slower Guard Change speed, however, one think that's very noticeable is that they have to fully commit to a Guard Change, as in the have to fully complete the animation before you can switch again. Just go in to practice mode as a Peacekeeper and start wiggle the Guard back and forth. Now do the same as a Lawbringer, you'll see the difference.

Dizzy4213
04-14-2017, 12:46 AM
Hi Dizzy:
I really appreciate the time and thought you put into your post and I will most definitely be passing your thread over along to the team.
Question: You've brought up a ton of points to think about, but in essence, do you think the slowness of his kit is the fundamental problem that's gating the LB's viability as a hero?

Thanks for the response.

To answer your question, no I don't think the slowness of is kit is the fundamental problem. Don't get me wrong, it definitely has a huge impact on his viability but I think the problems lie elsewhere. Maybe in his design and kit. It just doesn't flow very well in my opinion. Everything the Lawbringer can do, other heroes can do better. His shove is a worse version of Warlord's headbutt, his Impaling Charge is a worse version of Warlord's throw/Crashing Charge, his Long Arm is a worse version of Sweep etc. There's not much that really stands out about him compared to the other heroes and hybrids. The Lawbringer is supposed to be a counter-attacker right? Yet most other heroes can do this just as well as him. Everyone knows his Blind Justice is guaranteed off of a light parry for 45 damage. Seems great right? Except that the Warden has a Crushing Counterstrike for 40 damage which can be used when parrying a heavy or light. To add to that, if the Warden parries a light, he gets a top heavy as well, which again does 40 damage. Do you see where I'm going with this? The Lawbringer who is designed to be a counter-attacker is almost outclassed by a hero who isn't. He gets a extra 5 damage and a measly stun effect compared to that of the Warden. I'm not singling out Warden here, he is just the first example that comes to mind.

If we look at the other hybrids:


Valkyrie has great mix-ups, lots of ways to disable the opponent, and a lot of unique abilities like full-block, dodge-counter, superior block etc.
Nobushi has great range and a lot of ways to apply bleeding, which increases her damage output. She also has Hidden Stance.
Lawbringer has stunning top heavies, that's it!


It's really disappointing. Valkyrie feels more like a counter-attacker when she has superior block, dodge-counter and can parry into a GB, then use headbutt to completely exhaust someone. I'm not saying she needs a nerf at all but it becomes pretty clear, that compared everyone else, the Lawbringer is extremely lacking. Even if everything I suggested was implemented, and all the bugs were fixed, I'm still not sure if he would ever be viable in duels.

That's why I think that perhaps the Lawbringer could do with a redesign to some of his kit to make him more unique and versatile. He really does feel like a poor version of other heroes. Nothing about him stands out. His only disabling move is the Long Arm which pales in comparison to Valkyrie's Sweep. His Impaling Charge is outclassed by the Warlords throws and his Crashing Charge which is basically an unblockable version of it. He does not feel like a counter-attacker at all.

I know some might disagree with me, especially since nobody likes sudden changes. But I would not mind seeing his entire kit being reworked to fit more in line with his intended design as a counter-attacker and disabler. Now does this need to happen? I'm afraid I really don't know, but I would like it if the devs would keep all options on the table. They need to think carefully about what they want the Lawbringer to be.

Anubisrus12
04-14-2017, 01:42 AM
I have to add, I don't think they actually have slower Guard Change speed, however, one think that's very noticeable is that they have to fully commit to a Guard Change, as in the have to fully complete the animation before you can switch again. Just go in to practice mode as a Peacekeeper and start wiggle the Guard back and forth. Now do the same as a Lawbringer, you'll see the difference.

Great analysis Dizzy4213!
While I am agreeing an almost all points you brought, i think that above is a MAIN (in capital, underscored, bold, etc)issue LB is having.
Give us faster Guard Change so we can keep up with attacks from different directions - we will find a way to apply that counter-attacker style.
Well, and may be faster Long Arm along with promised patch changes.

SAVAGE_CABBAGE1
04-14-2017, 01:53 AM
Great analysis Dizzy4213!
While I am agreeing an almost all points you brought, i think that above is a MAIN (in capital, underscored, bold, etc)issue LB is having.
Give us faster Guard Change so we can keep up with attacks from different directions - we will find a way to apply that counter-attacker style.
Well, and may be faster Long Arm along with promised patch changes.

I also agree, thank you for bringing these issues to light. I also agree with Anubis in that as a counter attacker, he can't really counter attack with the slow guard change speed

JackStreicher
04-17-2017, 11:52 AM
despite LBs being too strong due to the defensive meta.

All they do is sit back, counter, block and keep spamming their unblockables or guardbreak while receiving no punishment (maybe a light attack here and there if the game doesn't lag too hard again).

At the moment they're just broken as **** as long as they abuse the defensive meta. So before making them even more ******ed, how about nerfing the Meta first and then adjusting instead of giving them two shot potential (which they already have with max gear score) for doing nothing but chilling and spamming unblockables 24/7?

Too slow? U get a free heavy after guardbreak and a free light cause it's so fast...


U could also enlighten me what to do against a defensive LB cause there is nothing especially since that stabing got power armour.

Netcode_err_404
04-17-2017, 01:15 PM
despite lbs being too strong due to the defensive meta.

All they do is sit back, counter, block and keep spamming their unblockables or guardbreak while receiving no punishment (maybe a light attack here and there if the game doesn't lag too hard again).

at the moment they're just broken as **** as long as they abuse the defensive meta. So before making them even more ******ed, how about nerfing the meta first and then adjusting instead of giving them two shot potential (which they already have with max gear score) for doing nothing but chilling and spamming unblockables 24/7?

Too slow? U get a free heavy after guardbreak and a free light cause it's so fast...


U could also enlighten me what to do against a defensive lb cause there is nothing especially since that stabing got power armour.

this

BEFORE nerfs and BUFFS, nerf the defensive gameplay, or all changes will be POINTLESS

Felis_Menari
04-17-2017, 10:09 PM
despite LBs being too strong due to the defensive meta.

All they do is sit back, counter, block and keep spamming their unblockables or guardbreak while receiving no punishment (maybe a light attack here and there if the game doesn't lag too hard again).

At the moment they're just broken as **** as long as they abuse the defensive meta. So before making them even more ******ed, how about nerfing the Meta first and then adjusting instead of giving them two shot potential (which they already have with max gear score) for doing nothing but chilling and spamming unblockables 24/7?

Too slow? U get a free heavy after guardbreak and a free light cause it's so fast...


U could also enlighten me what to do against a defensive LB cause there is nothing especially since that stabing got power armour.

The LB is a slow stance switcher. Anyone with fast chains (PK and Valk, in particular) can wreck an LB up close. Same goes for Nobushi, Raider, and Shugoki if an opponent can pop his hyper armor without taking a hit while doing so.

Mythic MK II
04-17-2017, 11:38 PM
My main issues with LB (being my main at Rep 10) is that his guard change is very slow. Long arm is okay, it would benefit a lot from a faster animation change as it can then neatly combo into a shove and, if it functions the same as Valks sweeep, still gves you time to dodge it (though I find the sweep VERY hard to dodge, but that might be my problem)

It is definately, as others have pointed out, that the time it takes for the guard to change from one sidee to another after just switching take a long time. Making switching guards a very risky choice as a LB and twitching around like all other classes do not an option.

Eveen Raideer, who I consider to be somewhat relatable to LB, has a very noticable faster guard change speed.
The sluggishness of LB's attacks is fine with me, the recent patch has made it just fine IMO. just the guard change is what is nagging on me.