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View Full Version : Wardens need a way to open up nobushi.



SerArthur-Dayne
04-13-2017, 10:44 AM
Currently it seems to be the hardest matchup in the game, and in my opinion, is beyond what could be considered a rock, paper, scissors approach to balancing.

At least when other classes face eachother, even if they are both parry/ blocking gods, theres always a way to mix up some of your moves and feints to open them up. But Nobushi is such a hard counter to warden in every aspect its feels often times pointless unless matched up against someone with a few 100% lower K/D than you. Mainly because wardens bread and butter is parrying for the GB, or shoulder bash mixups.

--A parry wont net you anything at all. This is already a giant advantage to have over any player in this game.
--Shoulder bash will never happen when it needs to be charged up in order to close the distance of a spear, and nobushis fast pokes just outright stop this.
--GB, again is frankly impossible to pull off considering you need to close the distance of a spear. Maybe if you can back her into a wall, then parry, then sprint to her and then GB, but its very obvious your going for this, and terribly easy to CGB at this stage. In my experience this is fairly pointless.
--wardens side attacks are too slow, and will get you parried.

Youre left with 3 moves, zone attack, top light attack, and landing a top crushing counterstrike.

--Nobishis top attacks may be the hardest to get the crushing counter on as its got an extremely short telegraph, and if you manage to land just one on her, she wont give you another. Most nobushis wont give you one anyway.
--So if Nobushi holds a left guard in order to auto block zone attacks, and keeps an eye out for the only other attack (a top ligh attack), Its checkmate. You got nothing.


Im not saying Nobushi needs to be nerfed at all. I just think warden need some way to be able to punish her. Maybe warden should be able to reach for the guaranteed GB after a parry, but only be able to get a light attack in, instead of the usual side heavy? I dunno what id change tbh, any thoughts or ideas? Cheers

guor6800
04-13-2017, 10:52 AM
Currently it seems to be the hardest matchup in the game, and in my opinion, is beyond what could be considered a rock, paper, scissors approach to balancing.

At least when other classes face eachother, even if they are both parry/ blocking gods, theres always a way to mix up some of your moves and feints to open them up. But Nobushi is such a hard counter to warden in every aspect its feels often times pointless unless matched up against someone with a few 100% lower K/D than you. Mainly because wardens bread and butter is parrying for the GB, or shoulder bash mixups.

--A parry wont net you anything at all. This is already a giant advantage to have over any player in this game.
--Shoulder bash will never happen when it needs to be charged up in order to close the distance of a spear, and nobushis fast pokes just outright stop this.
--GB, again is frankly impossible to pull off considering you need to close the distance of a spear. Maybe if you can back her into a wall, then parry, then sprint to her and then GB, but its very obvious your going for this, and terribly easy to CGB at this stage. In my experience this is fairly pointless.
--wardens side attacks are too slow, and will get you parried.

Youre left with 3 moves, zone attack, top light attack, and landing a top crushing counterstrike.

--Nobishis top attacks may be the hardest to get the crushing counter on as its got an extremely short telegraph, and if you manage to land just one on her, she wont give you another. Most nobushis wont give you one anyway.
--So if Nobushi holds a left guard in order to auto block zone attacks, and keeps an eye out for the only other attack (a top ligh attack), Its checkmate. You got nothing.


Im not saying Nobushi needs to be nerfed at all. I just think warden need some way to be able to punish her. Maybe warden should be able to reach for the guaranteed GB after a parry, but only be able to get a light attack in, instead of the usual side heavy? I dunno what id change tbh, any thoughts or ideas? Cheers

This is how i feel playing Kensei against nearly any character in the game. Without the Zone-attack option of course.

DrinkinMehStella
04-13-2017, 10:56 AM
nobushi is my nemesis as a valk main. the only long range character i cant beat with my strikes. i just have to dodge and strike or use the shield crush.

Dizzy4213
04-13-2017, 11:24 AM
A Warden complaining about a Nobushi. Lmao, sorry but I just can't take this seriously.

Frappenstain
04-13-2017, 11:24 AM
"Wardens need a way to open up nobushi. " Just tell that you love her.

Draghmar
04-13-2017, 11:28 AM
I read a lot of this forum and sometimes I think people come here to give some 'great' idea or cry that something has to be done 'just because' and I feel that what they are really looking for is a easy way to do anything...

Synsif
04-13-2017, 11:33 AM
Currently it seems to be the hardest matchup in the game, and in my opinion, is beyond what could be considered a rock, paper, scissors approach to balancing.

At least when other classes face eachother, even if they are both parry/ blocking gods, theres always a way to mix up some of your moves and feints to open them up. But Nobushi is such a hard counter to warden in every aspect its feels often times pointless unless matched up against someone with a few 100% lower K/D than you. Mainly because wardens bread and butter is parrying for the GB, or shoulder bash mixups.

--A parry wont net you anything at all. This is already a giant advantage to have over any player in this game.
--Shoulder bash will never happen when it needs to be charged up in order to close the distance of a spear, and nobushis fast pokes just outright stop this.
--GB, again is frankly impossible to pull off considering you need to close the distance of a spear. Maybe if you can back her into a wall, then parry, then sprint to her and then GB, but its very obvious your going for this, and terribly easy to CGB at this stage. In my experience this is fairly pointless.
--wardens side attacks are too slow, and will get you parried.

Youre left with 3 moves, zone attack, top light attack, and landing a top crushing counterstrike.

--Nobishis top attacks may be the hardest to get the crushing counter on as its got an extremely short telegraph, and if you manage to land just one on her, she wont give you another. Most nobushis wont give you one anyway.
--So if Nobushi holds a left guard in order to auto block zone attacks, and keeps an eye out for the only other attack (a top ligh attack), Its checkmate. You got nothing.


Im not saying Nobushi needs to be nerfed at all. I just think warden need some way to be able to punish her. Maybe warden should be able to reach for the guaranteed GB after a parry, but only be able to get a light attack in, instead of the usual side heavy? I dunno what id change tbh, any thoughts or ideas? Cheers

This is the problem Orochi and Kensei have with every class in the game. My solution for you is to just get used to it....

David_gorda
04-13-2017, 11:36 AM
If you parry a light you get a top heavy, if you parry a heavy you can do zone attack, if you cant beat nobuchi with warden you are simply Worse player then the nobuchi.

UrWaifuAintReal
04-13-2017, 11:49 AM
If you parry a light you get a top heavy, if you parry a heavy you can do zone attack, if you cant beat nobuchi with warden you are simply Worse player then the nobuchi.

Also you can dash forward to initiate the shoulder bash into double side lights and initiate the vortex after a heavy parry, works most of the times , of course the nobushi has a small window to dodge away or use hidden stance to retaliate the second shoulder bash.

Moondyne_MC
04-13-2017, 12:00 PM
Okay, Nobushi main here.

Wardens are actually one of my favourite classes to duel, as it always feels like a fairly even fight. Our first light is really quite slow, and outside of that we can only heavy or side dash heavy (sidewinder) to open, so as long as you're competent at blocking you should have no problem simply walking towards us to close the gap.

Hidden stance is another matter, however, as it counts as the first move in a combo that means the second light will come out quite quickly. That said, not a lot of people use it, and it can be quite dangerous to use from neutral ground as it leaves us open to any kind of quick attack.

Now, the GB matter is funny. We might be outside your GB range on a parry, but that goes both ways. As long as you're not right in my face, you're also too far away for a GB on parry for me.

As far as zones go, as far as I'm concerned you've got the superior one for dueling. Even though it doesn't do a lot of damage, it can make us panic enough that you can open us up properly. Ours may do a lot more damage, but is a lot easier to block and even parry.

Lastly, not use your 50/50? That's the one thing that destroys me when facing a Warden. Not saying spam it or anything, but if you're having trouble against us then by all means break it out in an emergency.

UrWaifuAintReal
04-13-2017, 12:11 PM
Lastly, not use your 50/50? That's the one thing that destroys me when facing a Warden. Not saying spam it or anything, but if you're having trouble against us then by all means break it out in an emergency.

Actually against good nobushi, spamming shoulder bash is risky because she can hidden stance it and the warden eats 2 lights.

Draghmar
04-13-2017, 12:15 PM
Actually against good nobushi, spamming shoulder bash is risky because she can hidden stance it and the warden eats 2 lights.
Hidden stance won't help against SB into GB so it's risky to use it this way.

kweassa1917
04-13-2017, 12:17 PM
Hidden stance won't help against SB into GB so it's risky to use it this way.

Yep. In most cases HS doesn't even activate fast enough to mitigate the vortex spam. You can do it from a bit of distance, but not when they just barge in.

Moondyne_MC
04-13-2017, 12:18 PM
Actually against good nobushi, spamming shoulder bash is risky because she can hidden stance it and the warden eats 2 lights.

Yeah I guess that would be an issue on PC. HS is so dodgy on console that no one uses it, but with the input fix coming in 1.5 I'll finally be able to use it and counter those pesky Warden 50/50's ;) haha.

UrWaifuAintReal
04-13-2017, 12:18 PM
Hidden stance won't help against SB into GB so it's risky to use it this way.

The risky part is the light after hidden stance comes out very quick and will cancel shoulder bash and the guardbreak.

Watch LightningCount and Kinseymister, they very very rarely get hit by shoulder bash and that is what they do.

IMMA_MAILGEYMER
04-13-2017, 12:22 PM
What are you crazy? attacking first? turtle up, use the unlock """"""TECH"""""" (it's in the game so it's legit) or stare at her switching guard likea maniac until she'll eventually drop her mask and goes away from the match.

kweassa1917
04-13-2017, 12:32 PM
The risky part is the light after hidden stance comes out very quick and will cancel shoulder bash and the guardbreak.

At a distance.

Except Wardies other classes have some of the most bullsheez amount of forward momentum in their attacks -- hence even a simple attack attempt basically puts you within GB/SB distance -- in which case, like said, HS doesn't activate fast enough. Once the Wardie makes it inwards, forces the Nobushi to guard any type of attack, then the burden of recovery time will often prevent HS from activating in time.

Midourin
04-13-2017, 12:35 PM
Hate to break it down to you, but this is simply a 'git gud' matter. Nobushi is my favorite hero to fight againt, no matter what hero I play as, since her attacks are so predictable. Parrying her lights is the easiest thing in this game honestly, and if you manage to parry her lights you ALWAYS get a TOP HEAVY. If you parry her heavies YOU ALWAYS (as warden) get a free ZONE ATTACK. Closing the gap is also incredibly easy since all you have to so is walk towards her, maybe throw a little dash in there, and BLOCK. You know, block, the fundamental of this game.

If the Nobushi is a parry Queen (very common in high tier since that's all they can do due to their predictable kit) just feint or use your shoulder charge. If they do go into hidden stance when you use shoulder charge, simply cancel it. Hidden stance disables Stamina regeneration for Nobushi so they can't use it every time you shoulder charge.

It really is a git gud issue, and you, as a warden, have no rights to complain over a Nobushi. That's just sad.

Another thing to look out for is their light attack cancel into hidden stance. If a Nobushi abuses this, just be extra careful. As soon as you see that she has entered the Hidden Stance, you can just throw out a top light, it's too fast for her to react to when she's already in Hidden Stance.

I don't main Warden, but I have played some Nobushi (rep 5) and I'm not new to the game at all (total rep 24). When you learn to parry you will cry over joy that the enemy is a Nobushi, just pray she doesn't abuse her zone bug.

UrWaifuAintReal
04-13-2017, 12:39 PM
At a distance.

Except Wardies other classes have some of the most bullsheez amount of forward momentum in their attacks -- hence even a simple attack attempt basically puts you within GB/SB distance -- in which case, like said, HS doesn't activate fast enough. Once the Wardie makes it inwards, forces the Nobushi to guard any type of attack, then the burden of recovery time will often prevent HS from activating in time.

Nope, first, after a heavy parry, the nobushi actually has a small window to dodge the shoulder bash without getting GBed, and even if she gets hit by the first by the first shoulder bash, she has enough time after that to hidden stance and double lights to cancel the subsequent shoulder bash.

Herbstlicht
04-13-2017, 12:57 PM
Warden has plenty ways. Nobushi simply has somewhat more range, but besides ... warden has many frame advantages, faster block recovery, overall stronger defence faster attacks, vortex. Whereas Nobushi .. nothing alike, kinda fair. Like Kensei, only with a swifter and more varied, therefore harder to counter moveset. If you're on console, i can't see Nobushi being much of a problem. Maybe different on Pc where it is somewhat easier to react to warden cheese?

kweassa1917
04-13-2017, 01:04 PM
Warden has plenty ways. Nobushi simply has somewhat more range, but besides ... warden has many frame advantages, faster block recovery, overall stronger defence faster attacks, vortex. Whereas Nobushi .. nothing alike, kinda fair. Like Kensei, only with a swifter and more varied, therefore harder to counter moveset. If you're on console, i can't see Nobushi being much of a problem. Maybe different on Pc where it is somewhat easier to react to warden cheese?

Trust me. There's nothing different in PC. Whatever difference applies both ways.

The sheer amount of cards the Wardie holds over Nobu means basically an uphill battle all the way for Nobushi players.

SerArthur-Dayne
04-13-2017, 02:22 PM
Hate to break it down to you, but this is simply a 'git gud' matter. Nobushi is my favorite hero to fight againt, no matter what hero I play as, since her attacks are so predictable. Parrying her lights is the easiest thing in this game honestly, and if you manage to parry her lights you ALWAYS get a TOP HEAVY. If you parry her heavies YOU ALWAYS (as warden) get a free ZONE ATTACK. Closing the gap is also incredibly easy since all you have to so is walk towards her, maybe throw a little dash in there, and BLOCK. You know, block, the fundamental of this game.

If the Nobushi is a parry Queen (very common in high tier since that's all they can do due to their predictable kit) just feint or use your shoulder charge. If they do go into hidden stance when you use shoulder charge, simply cancel it. Hidden stance disables Stamina regeneration for Nobushi so they can't use it every time you shoulder charge.

It really is a git gud issue, and you, as a warden, have no rights to complain over a Nobushi. That's just sad.

Another thing to look out for is their light attack cancel into hidden stance. If a Nobushi abuses this, just be extra careful. As soon as you see that she has entered the Hidden Stance, you can just throw out a top light, it's too fast for her to react to when she's already in Hidden Stance.

I don't main Warden, but I have played some Nobushi (rep 5) and I'm not new to the game at all (total rep 24). When you learn to parry you will cry over joy that the enemy is a Nobushi, just pray she doesn't abuse her zone bug.

Hate to break it down to you, but this is simply a 'git gud' matter

and BLOCK. You know, block, the fundamental of this game.

It really is a git gud issue,

you, as a warden, have no rights to complain over a Nobushi. That's just sad

When you learn to parry you will cry over joy that the enemy is a Nobush

Dude, this is the reason this forum is such a flaming dumpster of salt & chinese snakeoil adds. Nobody can just have a simple conversation about stuff without a wall of condescending, undercut insults. If you have good points and arguements, theyll stand up perfectly fine on their own, just like all the others that were able to disagree with me without making it personal. Im not campaigning for a nerf, but looking to have a conversation and see what others think. Thats why I said any thoughts or ideas? instead of Hey hit me with 3 pages of "go F yourself for having an opinion I disagee with".

Also next time you could at least check your stats when you tell others to "git gud".... Cmon.

SAVAGE_CABBAGE1
04-13-2017, 02:46 PM
Hate to break it down to you, but this is simply a 'git gud' matter

and BLOCK. You know, block, the fundamental of this game.

It really is a git gud issue,

you, as a warden, have no rights to complain over a Nobushi. That's just sad

When you learn to parry you will cry over joy that the enemy is a Nobush

Dude, this is the reason this forum is such a flaming dumpster of salt & chinese snakeoil adds. Nobody can just have a simple conversation about stuff without a wall of condescending, undercut insults. If you have good points and arguements, theyll stand up perfectly fine on their own, just like all the others that were able to disagree with me without making it personal. Im not campaigning for a nerf, but looking to have a conversation and see what others think. Thats why I said any thoughts or ideas? instead of Hey hit me with 3 pages of "go F yourself for having an opinion I disagee with".

Also next time you could at least check your stats when you tell others to "git gud".... Cmon.

Parry a light attack for a free overhead heavy.
You're complaining about a mid tier character as an S tier character, so that's probably why he said it was a L2P issue.

Midourin
04-13-2017, 03:00 PM
Check my stats? Im in top 0.1% Pretty sure that's reasonable stats my friend. And what's this irony I smell? You tell me to not throw insults, that I participate in a poor community, when you do the same? Mmm, ok

And just to be clear; I didn't even insult YOU. I'm sorry you took it personal, but I was generalizing it. I said Nobushi is a simple hero to counter-play, and I said that it's a matter of learning how to parry her lights, not that YOU are bad, that YOU can't parry them.

If you ask for opinions, learn to handle feedback.

sgtpickles
04-13-2017, 04:30 PM
Stop vortexing and use your other skills. Nobushi murders Wardens that keep spamming shoulder bash.

Moondyne_MC
04-14-2017, 02:55 AM
Lol Jesus guys, OP wasn't complaining, he specifically said no nerf to Nobu, he was just asking for strategies in opening them up. Telling people to git gud doesn't make anyone else think you're cool.

RoosterIlluzion
04-14-2017, 07:14 AM
She's similar to Orochi or Valkyrie, wait for them to attack and parry, or dodge and GB. Unfortunately, these types of match-ups create the turtle game.