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wickedpenguin
07-27-2004, 01:56 AM
In my opinion one of the most beautiful (and menacing) aircraft that served in the PTO has to be the Black Widow. Is this beauty going to be in PF?

I'd love to see what those four .50's, four 20mm's, and 6400lbs. of bombs could do...

http://www.crewstopia.com/doug/pix/WWII/P-61%20Black%20Widow.1.jpg
http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/air_power/ap25.jpg
http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/p61-2.jpg

More Info:
http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/air_power/ap25.htm

"Fear is the mindkiller"
- Dune
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wickedpenguin
07-27-2004, 01:56 AM
In my opinion one of the most beautiful (and menacing) aircraft that served in the PTO has to be the Black Widow. Is this beauty going to be in PF?

I'd love to see what those four .50's, four 20mm's, and 6400lbs. of bombs could do...

http://www.crewstopia.com/doug/pix/WWII/P-61%20Black%20Widow.1.jpg
http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/air_power/ap25.jpg
http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/p61-2.jpg

More Info:
http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/air_power/ap25.htm

"Fear is the mindkiller"
- Dune
----------------------------------
[b]Wicked Penguin Corporation[/b[
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Destraex
07-27-2004, 03:17 AM
tis a beauty m8, love its lines and its armament. How active were they in the pacific?

JG53Frankyboy
07-27-2004, 03:26 AM
sure, it would be a nice adition in PF

BUT with no Radar and the AI that is seeing in the night as same as at a bright day ?!?!?! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

JG53Frankyboy
07-27-2004, 03:55 AM
The first operational use of the P-61 Black Widow was in the Pacific theatre. The 418th, 419th and 421st Night Fighter Squadrons shipped out to the Southwest Pacific Area late in 1943. The first operational mission by Black Widow took place out of Saipan on June 24, 1944, and the first kill was made on June 30, when a Black Widow piloted by 6th Night Fighter Squadron members 2nd Lt. Dale F. Haversom and radar operator Raymond P. Mooney shot down a Betty. The Black Widows flew numerous missions against Japanese night intruders, which were a real nuisance to American forces and which up to this time had been virtually immune from interception. On typical missions, the Black Widow would be directed to the vicinity of its target by ground based radar. The onboard A/I radar under the control of the radar operator would then be used to direct the pilot to close with and intercept the the enemy. As soon as the Black Widow had gotten close enough to its target to make a visual identification, the guns would be aimed and fired by the pilot or by the gunner. The appearance of the Black Widow in the night skies over the Pacific was a rude and unpleasant surprise for these night raiders.

One of the primary missions of the Black Widow squadrons was the protection of B-29 bases on Saipan against night attacks, and these aircraft flew combat air patrols and interception missions. They also aided in the rescue of many crippled and lost B-29s trying to return from raids on Japan.

Black Widows were also based in New Guinea and later in the Philippines. In the Philippines, Black Widows flew night intruder missions against Japanese airfields and ground installations. The Black Widow also participated in the invasion of Iwo Jima and Okinawa.


China-Burma-India Theatre
The Black Widow also served in the China-Burma-India theatre. The first Black Widow kill in that theater took place on October 30, 1944, when a Kunming-based Black Widow flown by Capt. Robert R. Scott and Charles W. Phillips of the 426th Night Fighter Squadron shot down a Japanese twin-engined aircraft. The initial mission of the China-based Black Widows was to destroy Japanese night intruders, but as enemy nighttime flying ceased, the Black Widows went over to night intruder missions, attacking Japanese ground installations in China and Burma.


hey, was used as nightattack planes , ok, bring it on http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

ampadgog
07-27-2004, 04:09 AM
i would kill to see it ....though its not probable. i doubt they will model the radar for it.

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wickedpenguin
07-27-2004, 08:12 AM
They honestly didn't rack up many kills, but it was not in any way the fault of the aircraft. They simply arrived too late in the theatre of operations, after the Allies had already taken control of the air.

However, in both Europe and PTO they were used for night strikes, interdiction, reconnaisance, and of course night intercept. There were actually two Black Widow crews who became Aces, both in the European theatre (each with 6 kills, including a V-1 buzz bomb).

Basically, it's an aircraft that had the potential to do quite a bit. It was very capable and carried a heck of a lock of firepower. Unfortunately, timing and the general war environment worked against it.

Still, unlike P-80's and Tigercats, it's a plane that really did see action in the theatre and should be in there. Maybe not in an initial release, but at least in an expansion pack.

"Fear is the mindkiller"
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p1ngu666
07-27-2004, 09:04 AM
two ppl have modeled it, to my knowledge http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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BSS_Vidar
07-27-2004, 09:54 AM
This would be an awesome addition. Flying Coop multi-crewed nite missions would be "too kewel". But if done right, modeling the weapons system/radar would be an undertaking in line with Lomac's development. Unfortunately, I think we're gonna be stuck with the "Booger on the windscreen" type combat in PF.

Oh man.. a thought came to mind. Multi-crew capable on-line missions in Lomac type sims, i.e. Pilot and RIO's in a Tomcat, Tornado, or F-15E. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/53.gif

BSS_Vidar

PlaneEater
07-27-2004, 12:34 PM
Expect the P-61 as AI in the first patch / addon.

Radar is beyond the scope of what we can do initially, so it is doubtful that it will be flyable for now.

wickedpenguin
07-27-2004, 01:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Expect the P-61 as AI in the first patch / addon.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very cool! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif At least it'll be in there.

Re: radar - What is it the He-111 has on its instrument panel? Top row, 2 gauges to the left of the heading indicator in this image:
http://www.il2sturmovik-fr.com/the_game/screenshots/He-111_cockpit1.jpg

I always thought that was a radar display.

"Fear is the mindkiller"
- Dune
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PlaneEater
07-27-2004, 03:29 PM
It's a radio beam / homing beacon landing aid. It's a receiver only, and I'm not even sure how to use it.

Snootles
07-27-2004, 04:16 PM
When you near a friendly airfield the center dot will start flickering and another flickering dot will appear somewhere around it. I believe the center dot represents your plane and the other dot is the airfield.

Given the simple nature of early intercept radars, the existence of this instrument in the He-111 probably means radar could be modeled with the Il-2 engine. Who knows?

lbhskier37
07-27-2004, 06:50 PM
I think the main thing holding radar in here back is the difficulty to use. The first radar scopes werent just nice little dots on a screen where the enemy was, it took lots of training to be able to tell a real contact from the rest of the **** they pick up.

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SkyChimp
07-27-2004, 06:59 PM
I thought I heard early on that Luthier himself was working on the P-61. Not true?

Regards,
http://members.cox.net/us.fighters/signature.jpg

necrobaron
07-27-2004, 07:36 PM
The Widow will be in PF(or perhaps the first patch?) as AI, but not enough material was found to make an interior. Apparently, there were quite a few interior differences between the varients, and as some have noted, the radar is apparently too complex to program into the FB engine. I'm disappointed the P-61 probably won't be flyable, but evidently there were just too many unknowns involved. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Although, after reading PlaneEater's P-61 radar thread, maybe there's still hope that we'll be able to take the 61 for a spin.

"Not all who wander are lost."

PlaneEater
07-27-2004, 07:49 PM
SkyChimp: Nope.

Necro: First patch. It will definitely *not* be shipping with the game, unless the game is substantially delayed in the next few days. And I can promise you that won't happen.

ElAurens
07-27-2004, 08:34 PM
Here is another little tease about the P 61. It's near full span spoilers (instead of airlerons) made it one of the best turners in the USAAF inventory. Not bad for an aircraft that was often mistaken for a medium bomber by the Japanese.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/icon_twisted.gif

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AA_Trouble4u
07-27-2004, 08:50 PM
There were only 2 variants to see service in the war the A and the B and here's a link to a site that is loaded with interior views and a fight training film. http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/P-61.html

There's a ton of great info on this plane here on the net. also there is the P-61 at Wright Patterson and there is one being restored by the mid atlantic museum.

But this doesn't help with modeling radar http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by necrobaron:
The Widow will be in PF(or perhaps the first patch?) as AI, but not enough material was found to make an interior. Apparently, there were quite a few interior differences between the varients, and as some have noted, the radar is apparently too complex to program into the FB engine. I'm disappointed the P-61 probably won't be flyable, but evidently there were just too many unknowns involved. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Although, after reading PlaneEater's P-61 radar thread, maybe there's still hope that we'll be able to take the 61 for a spin.

"Not all who wander are lost."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Copperhead310th
07-27-2004, 09:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PlaneEater:
SkyChimp: Nope.

Necro: First patch. It will definitely *not* be shipping with the game, unless the game is substantially delayed in the next few days. And I can promise you that won't happen.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So that big ol' file and 3 days of resaerch didn'thelp you any at all did it? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

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wickedpenguin
07-27-2004, 09:51 PM
I - and a lot of people, apparently http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif - would really like this a/c flyable.

If we're willing to learn the bombsights for the He-111 and the TB-3, I think people would be willing to figure out a radar system. As with anything in this game, it takes time to learn. It definitely falls under the "cool and interesting" category.

Also, given the lack of information regarding the radar, I'd personally be willing to let the realism slide a bit in favor of having the a/c functional

"Fear is the mindkiller"
- Dune
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ShadowHawk__
07-28-2004, 12:28 AM
That is one big, scary airplane.

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Bull_dog_
07-28-2004, 07:07 PM
I tend to like the more mainstream aircraft, but the P-51 A w/ varients and the Black Widow are a couple of my darkhorse favorites that I hope sneak in the back door.

I have visions of online fights in a P-61 where I out turn Ki-61's, Fw's and 109's....

I've read in more than a couple of sources that the only US aircraft that could turn better was a Wildcat! Even if that is an exaggeration, just imagine a huge, immensely tough aircraft with its firepower out turning many single engined fighters!

I understand it couldn't climb well and was relatively slow for 1944...but it could dive! And 4 20mm's along with 4 HMG's...wouldn't take much to shred an enemy. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/784.gif

SkyChimp
07-28-2004, 08:28 PM
The P-61A and P-61B weren't stellar climbers, but it certainly wasn't bad for a big twin engined plane. It appears to have had an initial climb rate of well over 3,000 fpm (around 3,250 fpm at SL according to America's Hundred Thousand).

Climb time to 15,000 feet was around 7 minutes. That seems about comparable to the Mosquito NF XVII according to my sources.

Top speed wasn't stellar either, around 375-380 mph @ 20,000 feet, but comparable to many NF versions of the Mosquito.

Turn was very, very good according to anecdotal evidence. AHT indicates the P-61 could turn inside the Hellcat. I've read other accounts of that.

Roll was pretty bad, apparently. The P-61 was equipped with tiny "feeler ailerons" and a spoiler system. A NACA doc gives some roll rates at a rather high indicated airspeed of 334mph. At 334mph IAS with a 50lb WHEEL force it was about 30 degrees per second. At 334mph IAS with an 70lb force it was just over 40 degrees per second. And at 334mph IAS with a 90lb force 50 degrees per second. This seems to be at least as good, or better, than the Mosquito. My understanding is that a pilot could put a lot more force into a wheel than on a stick.

The P-61 apparently was very pleasant to fly and had exceptional stall characteristics.

The P-61's SCR-720 AI radar was probably the best airborne intercept radar of the war. Even the British adopted it (the Mk X AI) and equipped their Mosquitos with it.

Performance of the P-61C was much better in all respects to the P-61A and B. But only 41 were built and deliveries didn't begin until July 1945.

Regards,
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PlaneEater
07-28-2004, 08:36 PM
It was the third best turner in the Allied airforce, if memory serves. Might have been just the USAAC. It was also the largest prop fighter fielded--66 foot wingspan, 43 feet long, 16 feet tall, 4000 hp with two R2800 radials. 360mph at alt, I think. Something very close to it.

Copper: It actually helped LOTS, but other stuff happened and it'll have to go in the first patch instead.

B-29superfort
07-29-2004, 01:18 PM
The P-61 Black Widow was the first US fighter armed with radar in WWII. It was a critical success in the Pacific hitting Japanese airfields, supply depots , and convoys. But it did have reports of a lot of mechanical problems that didn't only have to do with the radar. But yes it would be fun to fly, at night of course.

PlaneEater
07-29-2004, 03:15 PM
There were some teething problems, but 99% of them were ironed out in the service test models and the early A blocks.

The problems were to be expected, considering the P-61 was one of the most complex planes fielded by the Allies. Gyro-based autopilot, extensive electrical systems, a remote turret that could be controlled from two different stations, the radar, IFF transmitters AND a receiver scope, night vision equipment, complex hydraulics, and more. Even more than that, though, is how much it says about the people working on it that all those issues got smoothed out so quickly.

wickedpenguin
07-29-2004, 11:25 PM
If it is put into the game, it'd be ideal if we could have the C version, since it's the ultimate edition.

Even if all three versions were included, I'd think people would still only fly the C version. There were only relatively minor improvements through the 3 editions. It's not like the differences between a P-51A to a P-51D, or a B-25A to a B-25J. The armament and configuration stayed pretty much the same from the P-61A through P-61C.

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PlaneEater
07-30-2004, 12:54 AM
The C version never saw any combat. It also does not perform as well as the A and B.

It mounted supercharged R-2800s, which meant added weight, degraded handling, and lower top-end speed, all sacrificed for altitude performance.

It also, for some reason, discarded the spoilerons that gave the P-61 its smooth, steady handling, and replaced them with very large speedbrakes.

Basically, you only want the C if you're trying to catch Bettys at 40,000 feet. Or testing ejection seats and doing meterological data-gathering by flying straight through storms.

SkyChimp
07-30-2004, 09:32 PM
The P-61C climbed better and was faster than the P-61A and B. It had a top speed of 430 mph at 30,000 feet. It climbed around 800 fpm faster than the A or B model. It had a higher ceiling as well.

Regards,
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