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View Full Version : Why do people say Orochi suck?



DuhSavagePickle
04-10-2017, 03:48 PM
I fail to see why he gets hate from everyone as being a mid-tier character with no good opening moves.

Learning to play with him correctly turns him into a top-tier fighter able to compete with the best wardens, PK's and warlords.

Granted he doesn't have Unblockables BUT he does have a lot of tools at his desposal to make your enemy play the guessing game.

You just have to be precise, calculative and deadly when you strike because each one of his moves are extremely punishable.

I actually find him pretty good at high level play.

Sure he doesn't have and vortex moves or Unblockables... BUT if played right he can be a pretty hard guy to anticipate, therfor confusing the hell out of the enemy.

I find myself beating 20+ prestige Warlords and Wardens AND peacekeepers with Orochi.

P.S, for my fellow Orochi's having a hard time with PK light Spam. I found simply blocking their light attack, then immediately following up with a top double light with the Orochi will shut them down 95% of the time.

But Yeah, for us Orochi (The Orochi that don't run that is...), Raider and Kensei mains... Hats off to ya'

We're the epitome of what balance truly means.

Specialkha
04-10-2017, 03:52 PM
He is not top simply because he can't compete with wardens and so on. Have you seen an orochi in tourney lately? I have sure seen plenty of warden/warlord and PK (Ah no he got banned lawl).

corazondedelfin
04-10-2017, 03:55 PM
Because he sucks, he is cool, a brave warrior, but in this game he just sucks thanks to the developers that made him unable to counter the massive "turtling" of this game.


Where there’s smoke, there’s fire.: If experienced people say Orochi sucks... Complete the sentence.

DuhSavagePickle
04-10-2017, 03:55 PM
He is not top simply because he can't compete with wardens and so on. Have you seen an orochi in tourney lately? I have sure seen plenty of warden/warlord and PK (Ah no he got banned lawl).

I agree in the sense that he's not overpowered as them, but I've yet to meet a Warlord/Warden/PK that can flat out beat me do to the character imbalance.

Simply put, played correctly the Orochi can hang with the best.

If anything they beat me because they played better than myself.

cragar212
04-10-2017, 03:58 PM
Meh he doesn't suck...

He's solid in middle tier, disadvangage vs top tier same as rest of mid tier

DuhSavagePickle
04-10-2017, 03:58 PM
Because he sucks, he is cool, a brave warrior, but in this game he just sucks thanks to the developers.


Where there’s smoke, there’s fire.: If experienced people say Orochi sucks... Complete the sentence.

That's the thing, I win 90% of my fights against the big 3.

This is why I started this thread. There has to be someone else that has the same outcome as me?

corazondedelfin
04-10-2017, 04:01 PM
That's the thing, I win 90% of my fights against the big 3.

This is why I started this thread. There has to be someone else that has the same outcome as me?

We are talking about mid to high tier level of gameplay. A fight between good players, not between unexperienced people or noobs. Orochi has no chance there. SAME FOR RAIDER.

DuhSavagePickle
04-10-2017, 04:04 PM
We are talking about mid to high tier level of gameplay. A fight between good players, not between unexperienced people or noobs. Orochi has no chance there. SAME FOR RAIDER.

I've fought the experienced and I've fought the best, I've played since the closed beta.

The reason of not being good enough or fighting somebody skilled doesn't really have a leg to stand on here.

My KD ratio with Orochi is 4.58(somewhere around there)

When played correctly, Orochi is a top tier character up there with the big 3

Specialkha
04-10-2017, 04:07 PM
If we are talking top players, then only warden/warlord/conq/pk/shugoki and to a lesser extent valk can compete. Everything else is mid tier with raider, maybe kensei and LB (maybe not so much with patch) low tier.

Solkoss
04-10-2017, 04:26 PM
Orochi is great! He is my favorite character to play but he does have his downfalls and he is definitely mid tier.

He can hold his own at high tier play but his move set is extremely limited:
Top double light Excellent
Zone Attack: Excellent
Storm Rush: Great if someone is extremely aggressive and you can capitalize on their mistakes with a huge punishment
Guard Breaks (though everyone has this)

That is the full Orochi package though. The top tier players in tournaments are very defensive so storm rush and random guard breaks are gone. That leaves you with Zone and top light. Not much of a move set verses someone who knows that and can react fast enough to defend them both or even parry them.

An extremely good player (top top tier) just defends top and watches for you to spin around with your zone meaning feints won't even fool them.

What sets Orochi into permanent mid tier IMO is Warden. Let me explain why:
Warden has virtually the same moveset!
Top light is fast
Double side lights (slower than Orochi but has plenty of guaranteed usage)
Zone attack is about as fast as Orochi
Blocks that don't go away like assassin blocks
Light top counter
Shoulder charges/mixups

The only way a Warden of equal skill to an Orochi should lose is if the Warden really screws up (getting over-aggressive, zone attacking too predictably so they get storm rushed, shoulder charging from too much distance or too slowly)

My question for you is what game mode are you playing? In Domination, Elimination, and Skirmish, you can get away with a lot of moves you normally wouldn't be able to get away with in duels and brawls.

Warlords and Conq should also beat Orochi as long as they are good at blocking your Top/Zone (parry sometimes). Orochi does have an easier time fighting Warlords/Conq than some slower classes due to the sheer speed of those attacks. Unfortunately you don't have much to open up a pro at defensive player.

DuhSavagePickle
04-10-2017, 04:35 PM
Orochi is great! He is my favorite character to play but he does have his downfalls and he is definitely mid tier.

He can hold his own at high tier play but his move set is extremely limited:
Top double light Excellent
Zone Attack: Excellent
Storm Rush: Great if someone is extremely aggressive and you can capitalize on their mistakes with a huge punishment
Guard Breaks (though everyone has this)

That is the full Orochi package though. The top tier players in tournaments are very defensive so storm rush and random guard breaks are gone. That leaves you with Zone and top light. Not much of a move set verses someone who knows that and can react fast enough to defend them both or even parry them.

An extremely good player (top top tier) just defends top and watches for you to spin around with your zone meaning feints won't even fool them.

What sets Orochi into permanent mid tier IMO is Warden. Let me explain why:
Warden has virtually the same moveset!
Top light is fast
Double side lights (slower than Orochi but has plenty of guaranteed usage)
Zone attack is about as fast as Orochi
Blocks that don't go away like assassin blocks
Light top counter
Shoulder charges/mixups

The only way a Warden of equal skill to an Orochi should lose is if the Warden really screws up (getting over-aggressive, zone attacking too predictably so they get storm rushed, shoulder charging from too much distance or too slowly)

My question for you is what game mode are you playing? In Domination, Elimination, and Skirmish, you can get away with a lot of moves you normally wouldn't be able to get away with in duels and brawls.

Warlords and Conq should also beat Orochi as long as they are good at blocking your Top/Zone (parry sometimes). Orochi does have an easier time fighting Warlords/Conq than some slower classes due to the sheer speed of those attacks. Unfortunately you don't have much to open up a pro at defensive player.

First off, let me just say I honestly appreciate the way you answered my question without insulting and or "Orochi sucks, that's why."

I'm referring to Brawl mode, I actually have some clips of me fighting a warden I would say is high tier and beating him with maybe a bar left of health.

He would unlock and run towards me and either zone/heavy, vortex, feint, all the works.

I find that the developers actually gave the Orochi an answer for all of those "Broken" mechanics.

ValdyKawaii
04-10-2017, 05:47 PM
Oh hi. Orochi main. Rep 29.. hopefully 30 tonight. I have come to accept that Orochi is not a class for dueling. I hop on dueling from the 25 takedown orders and as long as the other opponent is attacking I'm fine even when I loose.

Sometimes however.. you come across someone that is so deep inside their own turtle that not even tripple feints gets them to open up.

I love to play in 4v4s for that reason. Is not su much about ganking or applying preasure to your opponent by attacking his friend. But, thanks to feats I can apply pressure to the turtles and they open right up.


Is a shame skirmish isn't more popular. It is by far my fav mode.

Solkoss
04-10-2017, 05:49 PM
First off, let me just say I honestly appreciate the way you answered my question without insulting and or "Orochi sucks, that's why."

I'm referring to Brawl mode, I actually have some clips of me fighting a warden I would say is high tier and beating him with maybe a bar left of health.

He would unlock and run towards me and either zone/heavy, vortex, feint, all the works.

I find that the developers actually gave the Orochi an answer for all of those "Broken" mechanics.

That sounds about right. The warden you were fighting seems aggressive and orochi does pretty well against aggressive play. The problem that I have run into is when someone who I feel is equal or slightly less skill than myself turtles up and they are really good at changing the block directions, it seems like an uphill battle to open them up. I feel like it is just a game of me trying to chip away at them and praying they don't parry my limited supply of attacks.

All I wish is that the orochi had a viable attack (for top tier play) from the opposite side as the zone attack. Something from both sides and the top would make them very dangerous! I guess I also wish the deflects were more viable too. The deflect is such a fancy move to pull off and I especially love it when I can pull off the heavy deflect :) I don't think it would take much to spring Orochi into upper mid to top tier class. They aren't that far away.

Solkoss
04-10-2017, 05:55 PM
Oh hi. Orochi main. Rep 29.. hopefully 30 tonight. I have come to accept that Orochi is not a class for dueling. I hope on dueling from the 25 takedown orders and as long as the other opponent is attacking I'm fine even when I loose.

Sometimes however.. you come across someone that is so deep inside their own turtle that not even tripple feints gets them to open op.

I love to play in 4v4s for that reason. Is not su much about ganking or applying preasure to your opponent by attacking his friend. But, thanks to feats I can apply pressure to the turtles and they open right up.


Is a shame skirmish isn't more popular. It is by far my fav mode.

As a Rep 29 Orochi, what do you think would make the Orochi more competitive in a turtle situation? Just curious of your opinion.
Do you think it is as simple as having an attack from the opposite side as zone that is viable at high tier play or do you think there needs to be bigger things?

I am Rep 15 Orochi (stopped playing after 15 mostly because of controller issues and the orochi just doesn't feel right to me without my controller lol)

I kind of wish the attack was an unblockable heavy that could be feinted away. That doesn't sound right for an orochi skill set though unfortunately.

DuhSavagePickle
04-10-2017, 05:56 PM
That sounds about right. The warden you were fighting seems aggressive and orochi does pretty well against aggressive play. The problem that I have run into is when someone who I feel is equal or slightly less skill than myself turtles up and they are really good at changing the block directions, it seems like an uphill battle to open them up. I feel like it is just a game of me trying to chip away at them and praying they don't parry my limited supply of attacks.

All I wish is that the orochi had a viable attack (for top tier play) from the opposite side as the zone attack. Something from both sides and the top would make them very dangerous! I guess I also wish the deflects were more viable too. The deflect is such a fancy move to pull off and I especially love it when I can pull off the heavy deflect :) I don't think it would take much to spring Orochi into upper mid to top tier class. They aren't that far away.

True about that, When someone turtles up and refuses to attack no matter what THEN the Orochi are mid-tier at best.

But against an aggressive player they are extremely well.

ValdyKawaii
04-10-2017, 06:05 PM
As a Rep 29 Orochi, what do you think would make the Orochi more competitive in a turtle situation? Just curious of your opinion.
Do you think it is as simple as having an attack from the opposite side as zone that is viable at high tier play or do you think there needs to be bigger things?

I am Rep 15 Orochi (stopped playing after 15 mostly because of controller issues and the orochi just doesn't feel right to me without my controller lol)

I kind of wish the attack was an unblockable heavy that could be feinted away. That doesn't sound right for an orochi skill set though unfortunately.

Block Damage.
Light attack after deflect to apply big poison damage.

With the tools we currently have... I just spam emotes and watch out for them to to the same and then give em a ZA lol. Other than that is gg.

PPl who play defensive switch to offensive when a third of their health is gone. Is just natural reaction.

Solkoss
04-10-2017, 06:05 PM
True about that, When someone turtles up and refuses to attack no matter what THEN the Orochi are mid-tier at best.

But against an aggressive player they are extremely well.

I think a lot of the really good players have figured that out. Turtling is a problem for many people though, not just the Orochi.
I think it would be cool to have anti-turtle things in the game. My idea is below:
1. Make it so someone Parrying has to commit to the parry. A feinted parry allows you to strike through and hit them anyways(or maybe hit for half damage and no stagger?). This would make parrying a little bit more risky when the turtle's opponent is someone who mixes in feints (counter parries would open up those turtles pretty well!).

2. Along with the committing to parry, make it so if someone get their block hit 2 or 3 times in a row, they should lose the ability to counter GB until they get hit or throw an attack.

DuhSavagePickle
04-10-2017, 06:09 PM
I think a lot of the really good players have figured that out. Turtling is a problem for many people though, not just the Orochi.
I think it would be cool to have anti-turtle things in the game. My idea is below:
1. Make it so someone Parrying has to commit to the parry. A feinted parry allows you to strike through and hit them anyways(or maybe hit for half damage and no stagger?). This would make parrying a little bit more risky when the turtle's opponent is someone who mixes in feints (counter parries would open up those turtles pretty well!).

2. Along with the committing to parry, make it so if someone get their block hit 2 or 3 times in a row, they should lose the ability to counter GB until they get hit or throw an attack.

I just posted a thread on how to help the turtle meta. Take a look and please give some input

Solkoss
04-10-2017, 06:15 PM
I just posted a thread on how to help the turtle meta. Take a look and please give some input

Ah lol I am at work so hiding the names (don't want to showcase that I am checking out forums lol)
I posted in there virtually a cut and paste :)

As a side note I know Ubi has invited some highly skilled players to an in-person meeting (this week). The players have been working on a huge list of things that would improve the game including class balances and turtle meta stuff and the players/devs have been gathering all the unbiased information they can! Hopefully the same folks are checking out these forums and feeding from these ideas.

The guy's stream who I have been paying close attention to because he was streaming the players discussions of all of these things is Ruikio and I believe he is traveling to meet with the devs as we speak! He's a rep 30 berserker and has pulled in many expert player sources. It has been an impressive effort!

DuhSavagePickle
04-10-2017, 06:25 PM
Ah lol I am at work so hiding the names (don't want to showcase that I am checking out forums lol)
I posted in there virtually a cut and paste :)

As a side note I know Ubi has invited some highly skilled players to an in-person meeting (this week). The players have been working on a huge list of things that would improve the game including class balances and turtle meta stuff and the players/devs have been gathering all the unbiased information they can! Hopefully the same folks are checking out these forums and feeding from these ideas.

The guy's stream who I have been paying close attention to because he was streaming the players discussions of all of these things is Ruikio and I believe he is traveling to meet with the devs as we speak! He's a rep 30 berserker and has pulled in many expert player sources. It has been an impressive effort!

I'm glad to see the community putting in effort to keep the game alive.

Manlorey
04-11-2017, 07:22 PM
2. Along with the committing to parry, make it so if someone get their block hit 2 or 3 times in a row, they should lose the ability to counter GB until they get hit or throw an attack.
This would be a terrible idea. A lot of already low-powered characters would be even less viable, and it would break any game mechanic along with it.