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View Full Version : Ubi, we are sick of boring fights



Vingrask
04-09-2017, 06:43 PM
You know, the ones where nothing happens because one or both players rely so much on defense that they can even parry lights consistently? Without even know the own hero! I'm sick of this, and for sure I'm not the only one who like to improve and be competitive and think that this gameplay is disgusting. I stop playing yesterday because that. Today I played against 2 enemies and both did that, I logout and will play anything else or just drop my playtime and do other stuff.

When will you address this, Ubi?

Everytime I face one of those players (what happen more day after day) all my will is drained. I just want end the match and logout. I've practice a lot on my mixups to see everything being blocked without cost no matter how much I feint and how many combinations of it I try, just to see the enemy guess right and parry a light when it is safe or obvious. And I'm not the kind of player who like just stare each other waiting for an "opportunity". Winning or losing, I want the fights to be fun, challenging indeed. I want lose for smart enemies who know their heroes and learned good mixups. Not for a guy who can switch heroes 5 times and still screw all my effort doing nothing but turtle and use 1~2 moves randomly that require only 1 button.

Damn, I don't want to play the game at all after that. It's like build a house over sand.

Increase the chip damage.
Make block cost stamina.
Fix the low risk - high reward for parry and give a specific follow up for every hero, or just make it change the attacker.

Take SF for example (because it is the most known fighting game). Keeping in mind that the games are different, but the idea is the same:

A fireball is used. You have three options here: block and get the chip damage; jump and avoid all damage; parry and get a suspended damage which recovery. Now let's analize the situations:
- block is the safest way to deal with it: even the enemy having the position advantage while you block, you can still defend yourself from possibles mixups, at the cost of a chip damage, what can cost you a match in long term;
- jump may give the enemy an advantage since he can predict your movement and take the lead, so even denying the damage you put yourself in a dangerous spot (like dodge today, if the enemy feint, you are screwd);
- parry deny the damage temporarily but give you the oportunity to position yourself and counter attack a possible mixup; depending the situation you can take the lead and do a surprise attack, but if the enemy hit you, the remaining parried damage is taken;

Those scenarios show how both sides, the attacker and defender, have ways to deal with it, and the parry just open the fight for a possible change of offensive.
But what we have on FH?

- block cost nothing and there is no drawback for it, because positioning here against the hiper strong defense means nothing; in fact the attacker who is punished with the drained stamina;
- dodge is dangerous in both games if the enemy is prepared to punish you and are expecting you to jump/dodge;
-parry cost nothing, is easy accomplished (can even be feinted!) and punish the attacker very hard; there is no momentum change, because the defender didn't need to take the lead, needing just back to defensive stance and repeat;

Defense can't be so strong, except if the heroes had theirs own and demand "defense mixups" or something to give both sides a fair chance. The today's situation is ridiculous: or I met someone who know nothing from the game and I feel really bad for fight them; or I met someone who do not have a single competent mixup but can deny all my hard earned skill with 1~2 core features. It's very very rare find an equal match, where there is a balance between attack with good mixups and defend just because we want that.

So, please, can you give us a light on that matter?

Specialkha
04-09-2017, 06:56 PM
And not in 2 months plz.

If you lack manpower to balance your game, fire the guy that does the Cosmectic BS and hire ppl that knows how to balance a game.

AzureSky.
04-09-2017, 10:33 PM
And not in 2 months plz.

If you lack manpower to balance your game, fire the guy that does the Cosmectic BS and hire ppl that knows how to balance a game.

hey the guy that do the cosmetic things is doing a great job, dont mix up flair and animators with people that balance things. They are completely different teams.

xjlxking
04-09-2017, 11:03 PM
hey the guy that do the cosmetic things is doing a great job, dont mix up flair and animators with people that balance things. They are completely different teams.

Did you even take time to read his post
He did not say to take the guy from cosmetic team and put him in the balance team. He said FIRE HIM and use that money to hire a balance specialist...

AzureSky.
04-09-2017, 11:19 PM
Did you even take time to read his post
He did not say to take the guy from cosmetic team and put him in the balance team. He said FIRE HIM and use that money to hire a balance specialist...

Do you even have common sense?

Maybe read a book or 2?

UbiJurassic
04-09-2017, 11:30 PM
We've acknowledged in our Warrior's Den stream that playing defensively is stronger than we intended. While it is incredibly important to us to find a proper balance, this is something that will be addressed down the road. Our current, main focus is to address and resolve important issues, such as in-game connectivity. Adjacently, the team is working hard to refine our future content being released at the end of the current Faction War season.

PecarCZ
04-09-2017, 11:34 PM
This is First Fighting game where you are punish for attacking ;);););) and reward when not attack ;););););)

Netcode_err_404
04-09-2017, 11:35 PM
We've acknowledged in our Warrior's Den stream that playing defensively is stronger than we intended. While it is incredibly important to us to find a proper balance, this is something that will be addressed down the road. Our current, main focus is to address and resolve important issues, such as in-game connectivity. Adjacently, the team is working hard to refine our future content being released at the end of the current Faction War season.

If you guys will find a proper balance to fix defense, I will be very happy.

Just be quick because people are leaving, and not just because they can't play this game for more than 1 hour staight because of disconnections.

Netcode_err_404
04-09-2017, 11:37 PM
You know, the ones where nothing happens because one or both players rely so much on defense that they can even parry lights consistently? Without even know the own hero! I'm sick of this, and for sure I'm not the only one who like to improve and be competitive and think that this gameplay is disgusting. I stop playing yesterday because that. Today I played against 2 enemies and both did that, I logout and will play anything else or just drop my playtime and do other stuff.

When will you address this, Ubi?

Everytime I face one of those players (what happen more day after day) all my will is drained. I just want end the match and logout. I've practice a lot on my mixups to see everything being blocked without cost no matter how much I feint and how many combinations of it I try, just to see the enemy guess right and parry a light when it is safe or obvious. And I'm not the kind of player who like just stare each other waiting for an "opportunity". Winning or losing, I want the fights to be fun, challenging indeed. I want lose for smart enemies who know their heroes and learned good mixups. Not for a guy who can switch heroes 5 times and still screw all my effort doing nothing but turtle and use 1~2 moves randomly that require only 1 button.

Damn, I don't want to play the game at all after that. It's like build a house over sand.

Increase the chip damage.
Make block cost stamina.
Fix the low risk - high reward for parry and give a specific follow up for every hero, or just make it change the attacker.

Take SF for example (because it is the most known fighting game). Keeping in mind that the games are different, but the idea is the same:

A fireball is used. You have three options here: block and get the chip damage; jump and avoid all damage; parry and get a suspended damage which recovery. Now let's analize the situations:
- block is the safest way to deal with it: even the enemy having the position advantage while you block, you can still defend yourself from possibles mixups, at the cost of a chip damage, what can cost you a match in long term;
- jump may give the enemy an advantage since he can predict your movement and take the lead, so even denying the damage you put yourself in a dangerous spot (like dodge today, if the enemy feint, you are screwd);
- parry deny the damage temporarily but give you the oportunity to position yourself and counter attack a possible mixup; depending the situation you can take the lead and do a surprise attack, but if the enemy hit you, the remaining parried damage is taken;

Those scenarios show how both sides, the attacker and defender, have ways to deal with it, and the parry just open the fight for a possible change of offensive.
But what we have on FH?

- block cost nothing and there is no drawback for it, because positioning here against the hiper strong defense means nothing; in fact the attacker who is punished with the drained stamina;
- dodge is dangerous in both games if the enemy is prepared to punish you and are expecting you to jump/dodge;
-parry cost nothing, is easy accomplished (can even be feinted!) and punish the attacker very hard; there is no momentum change, because the defender didn't need to take the lead, needing just back to defensive stance and repeat;

Defense can't be so strong, except if the heroes had theirs own and demand "defense mixups" or something to give both sides a fair chance. The today's situation is ridiculous: or I met someone who know nothing from the game and I feel really bad for fight them; or I met someone who do not have a single competent mixup but can deny all my hard earned skill with 1~2 core features. It's very very rare find an equal match, where there is a balance between attack with good mixups and defend just because we want that.

So, please, can you give us a light on that matter?

I know too well.

i Lot of people are incredibli good in parrying, which is fine, but if you do not make them able to parry, that duel just won't finish.

Most of these people are not even aware of the comboes ( i mean why they should ? Comboes are useless)

PecarCZ
04-09-2017, 11:43 PM
Before they fix defense meta/connection p2p 90-95% of all players leave game and this will be soon.I think 1 more month and there will be very low population in game.

Netcode_err_404
04-10-2017, 12:04 AM
Before they fix defense meta/connection p2p 90-95% of all players leave game and this will be soon.I think 1 more month and there will be very low population in game.

Sadly I think the same. Like always, best ideas are treated like garbage, while mediocre games are the main focus ( Assassin's creed)

Helnekromancer
04-10-2017, 12:04 AM
Just make it so blocking more than 2 or 3 hits in a row cost you to stagger. Seeing more and more players in duels sit idle waiting for you to hit them so they can parry for a free hit and slowly wittle you down. It's quite boring I love when fights are dire and both opponents are swinging at each, exhausted trying to land that finishing blow and that was what the first 2 weeks of the game release now it's one person trying to open up the other that's is playing 100% defensively and reactively too scared to throw a punch but would gladly sneak a uppercut.

Vingrask
04-10-2017, 12:36 AM
We've acknowledged in our Warrior's Den stream that playing defensively is stronger than we intended. While it is incredibly important to us to find a proper balance, this is something that will be addressed down the road. Our current, main focus is to address and resolve important issues, such as in-game connectivity. Adjacently, the team is working hard to refine our future content being released at the end of the current Faction War season.

I know fix problem which won't let people play is the main focus right now, but for us which can play, the unbalanced defense is the main problem, so I think both topic should be on the same level of importance.
You see, I do really like the game, but I lost the desire to play after this weekend, because I know at some point I will met again someone which sucks with the hero but can give me a unreasonable hard time just defending in a way that deny any possible fun. It-is-not-fun!

All the balance patch you did in 1.05 was awesome, but I would trade without even think all the 1.4GB for a defense balance patch, and I'm not alone, Ubi! You don't see the size of the problem when you lose dedicated and passionated For Honor's players like me because a bad mechanic that would benefit everyone if worked. I feel bad for not have any wish to play anymore, not because the money, not because I do not have other fun games or activities to do, but because I love fighting games and I want For Honor to be my PC hobby.

So please, reconsider how much you care about our complains over the defense matter. It should be a priority right now, not because we are saying: just look how much potential players you lose everytime a streamer or a tournament show how boring a high level match is. "High Level" I say, but in fact those players have no mixups and do not dominate the own hero. With a fight fun to watch you can gain much more players than lose. We are all getting bored: who plays and who watchs!

I don't think anybody here will complain if together with the connection work you do the defense work. Everybody will benefit.

darkspawn2101
04-10-2017, 12:43 AM
We've acknowledged in our Warrior's Den stream that playing defensively is stronger than we intended. While it is incredibly important to us to find a proper balance, this is something that will be addressed down the road. Our current, main focus is to address and resolve important issues, such as in-game connectivity. Adjacently, the team is working hard to refine our future content being released at the end of the current Faction War season.

This is what I want to hear.


Unlike so many I realize you dont build rome, Valkenheim, or Ashfield in a day. I'm willing to wait.

Iskaroth
04-10-2017, 01:22 AM
This is what I want to hear.


Unlike so many I realize you dont build rome, Valkenheim, or Ashfield in a day. I'm willing to wait.

What are you talking about dude? This game wasnt made in one day, they had more than enough time to test their fighting mechanics before/while developing the game, not to mention long beta test period. Actually the current state of For Honor feels like beta test - unbalanced mess with broken "techs"/exploits.
I dont know when they will fix the defense meta but im afraid game will be pretty much dead by then.

Qarismah
04-10-2017, 01:39 AM
The defense meta was something that arose some time after the game was finally released. In the alphas and beta it was not that big of a strategy and thus there was no need to balance it yet. However, as people got better at the game, they started to realize how powerful defense was and that's where it got out of hand. This game has a lot of issues but I don't fault the developers for how strong defense is.

Aside from all the changes that need to be made to individual heroes I think parries could be easily be balanced by making parries light attacks instead of heavies which can be feinted. Someone mentioned before that feinting parries was not intended to be a thing. Making parries light attacks would temper two defensive strategies with one change.

1. Parrying would be much riskier because you can't cancel a parry if your opponent feints. Also light attacks are more punishable if parried.

2. Trying to bait out a parry is riskier since parries are now light attacks and thus harder to counter parry.

Unfortunately, I can see how this would hurt some heroes more than others. For example, feinting into a gb would no longer be a thing. This takes an extremely valuable tool away from the beserker, kensei, lawbringer, and others.

Vingrask
04-10-2017, 10:21 PM
The defense meta was something that arose some time after the game was finally released. In the alphas and beta it was not that big of a strategy and thus there was no need to balance it yet. However, as people got better at the game, they started to realize how powerful defense was and that's where it got out of hand. This game has a lot of issues but I don't fault the developers for how strong defense is.

Aside from all the changes that need to be made to individual heroes I think parries could be easily be balanced by making parries light attacks instead of heavies which can be feinted. Someone mentioned before that feinting parries was not intended to be a thing. Making parries light attacks would temper two defensive strategies with one change.

1. Parrying would be much riskier because you can't cancel a parry if your opponent feints. Also light attacks are more punishable if parried.

2. Trying to bait out a parry is riskier since parries are now light attacks and thus harder to counter parry.

Unfortunately, I can see how this would hurt some heroes more than others. For example, feinting into a gb would no longer be a thing. This takes an extremely valuable tool away from the beserker, kensei, lawbringer, and others.

No, friend, this way just make things worse. You fix the "feinting parries" but not the defense problem. And feint parry isn't even a problem so big right now to be treated individually.

All the defense need some kind of drawback. Today attack have drawbacks (a lot!!), but the defense not at all. You can just block, block, block, block, upset your enemy to the point where he/she will start everything imaginable to open up you, then you read his/her moves, parry, GB and now you can win the game or punish with a heavy. Or you enemy stop try, stare you too and the super fun get even better.

We want action. We want that a high level play involve you master your hero. Ubi did right not giving a ranked for us yet, imagine that.
All the last year promises of a damn amazing medieval 3D fighting game we saw and experimented in betas was washed down. At least for dedicated fighing game players like myself. I even reinstalled SFIV...

Weird_Eagle
04-11-2017, 02:59 PM
1. Parry a light attack gives only a light attack as counter
2. Blocking a light attack works as intend
3. Blocking a heavy attack gives 25% chipdmg, can be reduced by gear down to 10% in 4vs4 modes
4. parry a heavy attack prevents only from getting the chipdmg
5. Assasines without stamina can only doge as fare as a normal char, so you can punish them, when they are out of stamina
6. problem solved

vgrimr_J
04-11-2017, 03:02 PM
how about connections! im getting sick of these disconnections every damn game in 4v4s.

mathi4s
04-11-2017, 04:06 PM
I don't know how to fix the Parry problem. There were some good ideas though, like chip dmg etc. But I'd like to adress a problem that could be solved far more easily: Can someone turn off the pesky Revenge mechanism in a duel? You don't even have to parry to get it. Just block all day and wuala. You have a significant advantage for some reason. For someone who plays kensei and can't open up a turtle this sucks a lot. I have to try a lot of attacks and the revenge meter fills up fast. It's not a 2v1 situation. Revenge has no place here. Maybe this is not such a problem on higher levels but still, this could be easily fixed and one of the many advantages of a defensive playstyle would be no more. PRETTY PLEEAASE.

Netcode_err_404
04-11-2017, 04:49 PM
https://youtu.be/47G2mqxTXwI?t=150

Boring ? How this amazing gameplay can be boring ?

Or this ?

https://clips.twitch.tv/CoweringTallEmuHassaanChop

Thats the highest possible of fun, and the game is defentely fun to watch.

corazondedelfin
04-11-2017, 04:54 PM
https://youtu.be/47G2mqxTXwI?t=150

Boring ? How this amazing gameplay can be boring ?

Or this ?

https://clips.twitch.tv/CoweringTallEmuHassaanChop

Thats the highest possible of fun, and the game is defentely fun to watch.

Great commentary, but so ironic that I have doubts that everyone will understand you hahaha

+1

secrecy274
04-11-2017, 05:07 PM
So, yeah, just had two Brawl matches against a Oni-Charge spamming Shugoki and a headbutt spamming Warlord... I enjoyed those rounds so much.
The problem here is, how do you punish these kinds of Warlord as a Lawbringer? There's no free GB because of the Shove.

RatedChaotic
04-11-2017, 06:18 PM
I had some very exciting matches last night against some very good opponents. It was some of the best pvp I had in years.

Prophit618
04-11-2017, 06:40 PM
Game's PVP on PC seems to be in the best state it's been since beta. Fights are not super fast paced, but they move at a decent clip, with a preference towards defense but few people outright turtling the entire time.

Of course, I play primarily Dominion, were playing too defensively means you're going to end up getting outnumbered for your trouble, and it's all about gaining points faster. Might well be different in Duel land.