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XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 09:35 PM
Was watching something on the history channel about flying guns, after having a little laugh about the browning being "the best gun of wwii" and the early mustangs having "massive armament with their 4 .50s" I saw some really cool guncam footage from a P51 attacking a me163. How many Me163s actually got into combat, and how many kills did they get?


"Ich bin ein Wuergerwhiner"

"The future battle on the ground will be preceded by battle in the air. This will determine which of the contestants has to suffer operational and tactical disadvantages and be forced throughout the battle into adoption compromise solutions." --Erwin Rommel

http://lbhskier37.freeservers.com/Mesig.jpg
--NJG26_Killa--

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 09:35 PM
Was watching something on the history channel about flying guns, after having a little laugh about the browning being "the best gun of wwii" and the early mustangs having "massive armament with their 4 .50s" I saw some really cool guncam footage from a P51 attacking a me163. How many Me163s actually got into combat, and how many kills did they get?


"Ich bin ein Wuergerwhiner"

"The future battle on the ground will be preceded by battle in the air. This will determine which of the contestants has to suffer operational and tactical disadvantages and be forced throughout the battle into adoption compromise solutions." --Erwin Rommel

http://lbhskier37.freeservers.com/Mesig.jpg
--NJG26_Killa--

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 09:38 PM
It was me163? damn I thought it was BI, now it explains everything.

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XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 09:44 PM
Umm... which WWII gun are best?

Regards
SnowLeopard

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 09:55 PM
Me-163 got very few kills...maybe a dozen or so. In fact, if I recall...it suffered more losses than kills.

I'll try to locate more.

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 10:05 PM
A while back, the History channel showed gun footage of the most successful Me-163 pilot attacking some B-17's. The footage was excellent, it showed the Mk-108's ripping into the B-17 and blowing huge holes in it. If I remember right, the left wing buckled from one of the hits.

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 10:06 PM
I caught a little bit of the show, as well. Absolutely full of errors and most the guncam footage showed had nothing to do with what they were talking about. For example, while they were discussing the .50 in WWII, they showed a clip of a TBF Avenger being attacked, so unless they just wanted to show the effectiveness of the .50 in friendly-fire incidents, the clips they were using were randomly selected.

The History Channel and it's shows have a very nasty habit of using footage that does not match the narration in their shows.

Poor research, poor editing and clearly the work of individuals with very little knowledge of the subject they are discussing.

I was also very pleased to hear Chuck Yeager spouting the line about the Russians find a use for the P-39 as a tank-buster. Oh, Chuck Yeager says it so it must be true...

--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 10:16 PM
And Yeager even liked the P-39!

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 10:18 PM
This is opinion is from the web site of Rudy Opitz, Chief test pilot for the Me-163"


".I agree the 163B was not a successful fighter. Several hundred 163Bs were built, but only 91 were operational as of December 31, 1944, and only 16 kills were attributed to 163s during the War. Note, however, that while under power or in a fast glide, the 163 could fly circles around any other fighter of its time.

In fact, the true contribution of the Komet was to high-speed flight as evidenced by the success of the delta-wing Concorde and delta-wing space shuttle. These Lippisch planform concepts live on today."


Another site with Me-163 operational information:

http://www.sml.lr.tudelft.nl/~home/rob/me163/units.htm


As far as I can find, USAAF fighters were given credit for shooting down 6 Komets. I don't know about any possible RAF claims other than an Me-163 being towed by another plane.

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 12:57 AM
Yhea, I love to paint out all the errors in the History channel stuff....like:

"Here is the Russian T-34 [Footage of box shaped Tiger-1's], the T-34 had gracefull slopeing armor, and a 76mm main gun. [Scenes of shells labled "88"]"


"And now, lets examine the Tiger tank that T-34 crews feared [Scenes of M-48's in Vietnam]"

Another thing: If the 37mm had such a slow loopeing trajectory, then how would it hope to crack a tank!!! lol

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 01:13 AM
http://imagehost.vendio.com/preview/wi/wileycoyote2/GCMe163MaybeModified.gif


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XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 01:44 AM
A little on the Operational history of the Me-163 for those who are interested.

The Komet was only used operationally by one unit, 1/JG 400, which had been formed from Erprobungskommando 16 (a test group that had been working out the operational proceedures for the 163) in May 1944. The unit received its operational aircraft from July 1944.

Pilots selected for the unit were of above average ability: the Komet was a very demanding airplane and required a skilled operator (although flight characteristics were superb, once the aircraft had reached a speed where its controls were operational).
In particular the dead stick landing at 130 mph (210km/h) with no opportunity for a second attempt was a test of the pilots ability. Pilots (and ground crews) were equipped with special suits made from non-organic asbestos and Mipolamfibre to prevent spontaneous combustion in the event fuel came into contact with the pilot.

All sorts of issues made combat operations troublesome: the high speed made high-G blackouts a common problem, extremely high rate of climb required the pilots to have a special diet, high closure rates made gun attacks difficult, and compressability problems were also readily encountered (the critical Mach number on the Komet being 0.84).

As too losses and combat kills, 14 Komets were lost due to enemy action, and they claimed 9 enemy aircraft in return. In addition, around 40 were lost in the air (compressability dives and fires) and about 220 were lost in landing accidents of varying severity.



"As weaponry, both were good, but in far different ways from each other. In a nutshell, I describe it this way: if the FW 190 was a sabre, the 109 was a florett, or foil, like that used in the precision art of fencing." - Gunther Rall

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 02:45 AM
Good stuff. All true except that the first operational sorties were made by Erprobungskommando 16 in May 44, although without success. The first sortie, by Major Spate was in a Komet that had been painted bright red by his ground crew - he was not amused!

Cheers!

NegativeGee wrote:
- A little on the Operational history of the Me-163
- for those who are interested.
-
- The Komet was only used operationally by one unit,
- 1/JG 400, which had been formed from
- Erprobungskommando 16 (a test group that had been
- working out the operational proceedures for the 163)
- in May 1944. The unit received its operational
- aircraft from July 1944.
-
- Pilots selected for the unit were of above average
- ability: the Komet was a very demanding airplane and
- required a skilled operator (although flight
- characteristics were superb, once the aircraft had
- reached a speed where its controls were
- operational).
- In particular the dead stick landing at 130 mph
- (210km/h) with no opportunity for a second attempt
- was a test of the pilots ability. Pilots (and ground
- crews) were equipped with special suits made from
- non-organic asbestos and Mipolamfibre to prevent
- spontaneous combustion in the event fuel came into
- contact with the pilot.
-
- All sorts of issues made combat operations
- troublesome: the high speed made high-G blackouts a
- common problem, extremely high rate of climb
- required the pilots to have a special diet, high
- closure rates made gun attacks difficult, and
- compressability problems were also readily
- encountered (the critical Mach number on the Komet
- being 0.84).
-
- As too losses and combat kills, 14 Komets were lost
- due to enemy action, and they claimed 9 enemy
- aircraft in return. In addition, around 40 were lost
- in the air (compressability dives and fires) and
- about 220 were lost in landing accidents of varying
- severity.
-
-
-
-
- "As weaponry, both were good, but in far different
- ways from each other. In a nutshell, I describe it
- this way: if the FW 190 was a sabre, the 109 was a
- florett, or foil, like that used in the precision
- art of fencing." - Gunther Rall



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XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 03:06 AM
http://www.sml.lr.tudelft.nl/~home/rob/me163/images/refer035.jpg



link to some info on Spate's red Komet:

http://www.sml.lr.tudelft.nl/~home/rob/me163/pkql.htm

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 04:21 AM
Dunkelgrun wrote:
- Good stuff. All true except that the first
- operational sorties were made by Erprobungskommando
- 16 in May 44, although without success. The first
- sortie, by Major Spate was in a Komet that had been
- painted bright red by his ground crew - he was not
- amused!


I wondered if someone would pick up on that /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Yeah... it took quite a while for the Komet crews to figure out how to effectively engage enemy planes. I don't think it was until August 24th that the first confirmed kills were scored (in this case 2 B-17s, both shot down by Feldwebel Siegfried Schubert. He himself later died in a takeoff accident).

What was the story with Major Spate's red Komet? was there a reason it got the paint scheme, or where his crews playing around?

Edit: D'oh, I didn't see your link Zybot /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif


"As weaponry, both were good, but in far different ways from each other. In a nutshell, I describe it this way: if the FW 190 was a sabre, the 109 was a florett, or foil, like that used in the precision art of fencing." - Gunther Rall

Message Edited on 11/09/0303:24AM by NegativeGee

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 04:44 AM
ak davis wrote..The History Channel and it's shows have a very nasty habit of using footage that does not match the narration in their shows.

Poor research, poor editing and clearly the work of individuals with very little knowledge of the subject they are discussing.

..................THATS for sure it makes you wonder what goes on there...it cant be hard to find sombody who can tell the diff between a f4f and a f6f and a tbm iv seen that several times.. the guy who aproves things must make 60-100000 a year and is still incompetent you would think a channel that does lots of military showes would have at least 1 person that knew somthing.......there at one time was "the milatary channel" i guess it went bankrupt it seemed to be at a higher level

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U.S INFANTRY 1984-1991

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 10:00 AM
NegativeGee wrote:
-
- What was the story with Major Spate's red Komet? was
- there a reason it got the paint scheme, or where his
- crews playing around?
-


'Even though the operational combat Staffeln were in existence, they had not completed training so it fell to Spate and EKdo 16 to make the first actual interceptions.
Entering the hangar that morning, Spate was both amazed and angered to find that the Me163BV41 had been sprayed an overall red colour. He had given no order for this to be done. The culprits were his own personal mechanics. They blurted out that it was the general feeling that it would bring him good luck if Spate could fly the first interception with this revolutionary aircraft painted in the same red scheme as carried by Baron Manfred von Richtofen's legendary World War I Fokker Triplane.'

Paraphrased from 'Komet: The Messerschmitt 163' by Jeffrey L. Ethel, who quotes it from Profile 225 with permission from Spate.


Camouflage - who needs it? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
Mind you, the exhaust trail was apparently highly visible anyway, and it seems that he never got to grips with the P-47s he was chasing, as the effects of compressability ruined his attack.

Cheers!

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