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View Full Version : Deflect mechanic suggestions and Riptide + SR Analysis



NickyNoNeko
04-08-2017, 01:30 PM
Help the community, Straw Poll link, thank you :)
https://strawpoll.com/yy1bye7



Deflect is USELESS
Deflect is GARBAGE
Deflect is POORLY designed

I think that every Orochi players agree with that.
(NB: I'll focus on Orochi because PK and Zerker don't really need deflect)

There are no reasons to deflect when you can Parry + GB + Heavy with a easier window and for higher damages.
Parry is better in every situation, because you can stand in neutral and decide to block or parry, and even cancel your parry or CGB. It means that with parry, your are "safe" from feints and GB. Low risk= High reward

But with deflect, you need to dash to initiate the deflect, and dash is counterable by GB...you get immediately punished for just trying it. High risk = Low reward
Nobody with a decent brain is gonna use deflect when he can simply use parry. Nobody

That's why in all tourney, at high level play you'll never see an Orochi (aka Top Light and Zone guy) and you'll never see Wind Gust or Hurricane Blast

I suggest the devs to remove deflect from the game, because it takes disk space for nothing...
And remove Wind Gust and Hurricane Blast from the moveset page at the same time :mad:

That being said, how to improve deflect mechanic and to give to Orochi a better gameplay (more than 2 atk...)?

Deflect

During the alpha, deflect was triggered by a simple block so it was obviously too strong. Bad idea.
With the following nerfs, deflect was remapped to dodge which is a bad idea too. Before it was too strong, and now it's useless, Ubisoft balance at his best aka Valkyrie Syndrome

Now, what if deflect will follow the same logic than Parry (to block in the direction of the incoming atk and press Heavy at the right moment) but with dodge and light and with larger window ?
Because in that case if you :

- timed it well, and you get the deflect
- timed it wrong and get a simple DASH SIDE ATK (that counter GB) but your opponent can still parry you

Let's see how to improve Wind Gust and Hurricane Blast:

- deflect + light + light > Wind Gust. The following light must be faster and the dmg must be higher to be worthful
- deflect + heavy > Hurricane Blast. Just add hyper Armor and make the animation a little bit faster. If the opponent dodges, you can cancel to GB. The dmg must be higher than Parry otherwise there still are no reasons to use it.


Riptide

Riptide is too much situational and to risky to pull of at the moment. You can't use it against Lights because they are too fast, and you can't use it against Heavy most of the time because Heavy can be cancelled and you get punished by a Parry.
The problem is that the rare situations where you can use Riptide, you can use parry instead. And like before, since parry is easier to trigger, you know what's coming next...

To be honest, I don't know what the devs was thinking when they designed this move : its purpose is to counter Light or Heavy? High Recovery moves ? Parry is better. Dash side atk ?Parry is better

If Riptide was designed to be a light-counter, there have to be iframes at the start of the animation and the dmg must be higher than Heavy. Or keep the same base dmg and decrease the recovery and allow a following atk for combos. And I think you should be able to cancel it for better mix-ups and feints game.

But the thing is, if riptide can be cancelled, so it would do kinda the same thing than Storm Rush but better.

Stormrush

Stormrush is too predictable.
Stormrush is too predictable.
Stormrush is too predictable.

You get it Ubi or I need to write it again and again ? The 2 steps cancel is ridiculous, because if you are far from your opponent there are no real pressure and he can just wait and block without fear and if you are close, he can just GB and punish you.
And if you actually simply land it, you get parried. Nice

So they must increase the distance before the cancel and since the move is very predictable, they should make it unblockable. Or maybe the animation need to be slightly faster to stick with the orochi counter gameplay.


I know that the devs rely on big data to buff/nef classes, which is stupid in my humble opinion because the numbers are based on average or "bad" gamers results and it doesn't reflect the reality. So let me help you a little bit to do your job with "data" :

http://strawpoll.com/yy1bye7
https://strawpoll.com/yy1bye7


- Deflect triggered by dodge + light
- deflect + light + light > Wind Gust The following light must be faster and the dmg must be higher
- deflect + heavy > Hurricane Blast add hyper Armor and make the animation a little bit faster. If the opponent dodges, you can cancel to GB. The dmg must be higher than Parry
- Riptide : cancel + iframes
- Stormrush : unblockable + later cancel

CandleInTheDark
04-08-2017, 01:37 PM
A point on the data (I don't play orochi, I can't really comment on that), the devs don't have everyone in the same datapool. On the last Warrior's Den, they showed they have different mu ratings (no idea what mu means before anyone asks) and they have the top 10-15% they take data from then everyone else. It will be more useful when they have ranked and they have a lot more to do to balance top level play than average Joe playing after work, but yeah just clearing up that point I knew was inaccurate.

corazondedelfin
04-08-2017, 01:42 PM
Help the community, Straw Poll link at the end of the post, thank you :)



Deflect is USELESS
Deflect is GARBAGE
Deflect is POORLY designed

I think that every Orochi players agree with that.
(NB: I'll focus on Orochi because PK and Zerker don't really need deflect)

There are no reasons to deflect when you can Parry + GB + Heavy with a easier window and for higher damages.
Parry is better in every situation, because you can stand in neutral and decide to block or parry, and even cancel your parry or CGB. It means that with parry, your are "safe" from feints and GB. Low risk= High reward

But with deflect, you need to dash to initiate the deflect, and dash is counterable by GB...you get immediately punished for just trying it. High risk = Low reward
Nobody with a decent brain is gonna use deflect when he can simply use parry. Nobody

That's why in all tourney, at high level play you'll never see an Orochi (aka Top Light and Zone guy) and you'll never see Wind Gust or Hurricane Blast

I suggest the devs to remove deflect from the game, because it takes disk space for nothing...
And remove Wind Gust and Hurricane Blast from the moveset page at the same time :mad:

That being said, how to improve deflect mechanic and to give to Orochi a better gameplay (more than 2 atk...)?

Deflect

During the alpha, deflect was triggered by a simple block so it was obviously too strong. Bad idea.
With the following nerfs, deflect was remapped to dodge which is a bad idea too. Before it was too strong, and now it's useless, Ubisoft balance at his best aka Valkyrie Syndrome

Now, what if deflect will follow the same logic than Parry (to block in the direction of the incoming atk and press Heavy at the right moment) but with dodge and light and with larger window ?
Because in that case if you :

- timed it well, and you get the deflect
- timed it wrong and get a simple DASH SIDE ATK (that counter GB) but your opponent can still parry you

Let's see how to improve Wind Gust and Hurricane Blast:

- deflect + light + light > Wind Gust. The following light must be faster and the dmg must be higher to be worthful
- deflect + heavy > Hurricane Blast. Just add hyper Armor and make the animation a little bit faster. If the opponent dodges, you can cancel to GB. The dmg must be higher than Parry otherwise there still are no reasons to use it.


Riptide

Riptide is too much situational and to risky to pull of at the moment. You can't use it against Lights because they are too fast, and you can't use it against Heavy most of the time because Heavy can be cancelled and you get punished by a Parry.
The problem is that the rare situations where you can use Riptide, you can use parry instead. And like before, since parry is easier to trigger, you know what's coming next...

To be honest, I don't know what the devs was thinking when they designed this move : its purpose is to counter Light or Heavy? High Recovery moves ? Parry is better. Dash side atk ?Parry is better

If Riptide was designed to be a light-counter, there have to be iframes at the start of the animation and the dmg must be higher than Heavy. Or keep the same base dmg and decrease the recovery and allow a following atk for combos. And I think you should be able to cancel it for better mix-ups and feints game.

But the thing is, if riptide can be cancelled, so it would do kinda the same thing than Storm Rush but better.

Stormrush

Stormrush is too predictable.
Stormrush is too predictable.
Stormrush is too predictable.

You get it Ubi or I need to write it again and again ? The 2 steps cancel is ridiculous, because if you are far from your opponent there are no real pressure and he can just wait and block without fear and if you are close, he can just GB and punish you.
And if you actually simply land it, you get parried. Nice

So they must increase the distance before the cancel and since the move is very predictable, they should make it unblockable. Or maybe the animation need to be slightly faster to stick with the orochi counter gameplay.


I know that the devs rely on big data to buff/nef classes, which is stupid in my humble opinion because the numbers are based on average or "bad" gamers results and it doesn't reflect the reality. So let me help you a little bit to do your job with "data" :

http://strawpoll.com/yy1bye7
https://strawpoll.com/yy1bye7


- Deflect triggered by dodge + light
- deflect + light + light > Wind Gust The following light must be faster and the dmg must be higher
- deflect + heavy > Hurricane Blast add hyper Armor and make the animation a little bit faster. If the opponent dodges, you can cancel to GB. The dmg must be higher than Parry
- Riptide : cancel + iframes
- Stormrush : unblockable + later cancel

My samurai brother, we discussed all the Oroshi wrong sh1t in here: http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1603616-Ubisoft-gt-How-to-fix-the-samurai-Orochi

The community managers wrote there, they were going to look into it... And developers ended by doing nothing.

Everyone experienced with the Orochi (Im one: https://fhtracker.com/profile/psn/corazondedelfin/heroes ) knows that he is fcked up with no chance against good players, but nobody gives a crap as they arent Orochis. Even none of the developers from the Streaming don't use the Orochi or give a crap about how wrong he is.

Orochi has no chance in this videogame, they are never going to improve and rework it (in a fair amount of time range at least), so many of us Orochis are quitting the game, particulary me as soon as I get the damn bugged trophy.

Have luck in your request, I thumbs up you, rated 5 stars etc. Good luck, the other players use the rest of the heros in a cheap assh0le way, and the Orochi has (and wont have) no way to counter that.

NickyNoNeko
04-08-2017, 01:57 PM
thank you corazondedelfin

yeah i know, i just wanted to do everything I could before to leave the game.

Take care m y friend

corazondedelfin
04-08-2017, 02:00 PM
thank you corazondedelfin

yeah i know, i just wanted to do everything I could before to leave the game.

Take care m y friend

You too brother, thank you from every orochi that is honorable and brave for making a thread aswell calling sense from the developers of this videogame. I just wish It could work.

See you in another videogame! :)

corazondedelfin
04-08-2017, 02:01 PM
thank you corazondedelfin

yeah i know, i just wanted to do everything I could before to leave the game.

Take care m y friend

You too brother, thank you from every orochi that is honorable and brave for making a thread aswell calling sense from the developers of this videogame. I just wish It could work.

See you in another videogame! :)

corazondedelfin
04-08-2017, 02:12 PM
And one contribution if any Ubisoft developer ever read this:

1- MAKE RIPTIDE STRIKE UNBLOCKABLE and it becomes something we can work with. I dont fcking know why you give so many spam unfair unblockable **** and vortex to other characters and you give us attacks that looks like a TROLOLOLOL attack that has no use but feeling cool with a good pose...

2 - MAKE DEFLECT+ATTACKS FASTER AND HARDER, or Orochi will be worth nothing.

Alustar.
04-08-2017, 02:18 PM
Help the community, Straw Poll link at the end of the post, thank you :)



Deflect is USELESS
Deflect is GARBAGE
Deflect is POORLY designed

I think that every Orochi players agree with that.
(NB: I'll focus on Orochi because PK and Zerker don't really need deflect)

There are no reasons to deflect when you can Parry + GB + Heavy with a easier window and for higher damages.
Parry is better in every situation, because you can stand in neutral and decide to block or parry, and even cancel your parry or CGB. It means that with parry, your are "safe" from feints and GB. Low risk= High reward

But with deflect, you need to dash to initiate the deflect, and dash is counterable by GB...you get immediately punished for just trying it. High risk = Low reward
Nobody with a decent brain is gonna use deflect when he can simply use parry. Nobody

That's why in all tourney, at high level play you'll never see an Orochi (aka Top Light and Zone guy) and you'll never see Wind Gust or Hurricane Blast

I suggest the devs to remove deflect from the game, because it takes disk space for nothing...
And remove Wind Gust and Hurricane Blast from the moveset page at the same time :mad:

That being said, how to improve deflect mechanic and to give to Orochi a better gameplay (more than 2 atk...)?

Deflect

During the alpha, deflect was triggered by a simple block so it was obviously too strong. Bad idea.
With the following nerfs, deflect was remapped to dodge which is a bad idea too. Before it was too strong, and now it's useless, Ubisoft balance at his best aka Valkyrie Syndrome

Now, what if deflect will follow the same logic than Parry (to block in the direction of the incoming atk and press Heavy at the right moment) but with dodge and light and with larger window ?
Because in that case if you :

- timed it well, and you get the deflect
- timed it wrong and get a simple DASH SIDE ATK (that counter GB) but your opponent can still parry you

Let's see how to improve Wind Gust and Hurricane Blast:

- deflect + light + light > Wind Gust. The following light must be faster and the dmg must be higher to be worthful
- deflect + heavy > Hurricane Blast. Just add hyper Armor and make the animation a little bit faster. If the opponent dodges, you can cancel to GB. The dmg must be higher than Parry otherwise there still are no reasons to use it.


Riptide

Riptide is too much situational and to risky to pull of at the moment. You can't use it against Lights because they are too fast, and you can't use it against Heavy most of the time because Heavy can be cancelled and you get punished by a Parry.
The problem is that the rare situations where you can use Riptide, you can use parry instead. And like before, since parry is easier to trigger, you know what's coming next...

To be honest, I don't know what the devs was thinking when they designed this move : its purpose is to counter Light or Heavy? High Recovery moves ? Parry is better. Dash side atk ?Parry is better

If Riptide was designed to be a light-counter, there have to be iframes at the start of the animation and the dmg must be higher than Heavy. Or keep the same base dmg and decrease the recovery and allow a following atk for combos. And I think you should be able to cancel it for better mix-ups and feints game.

But the thing is, if riptide can be cancelled, so it would do kinda the same thing than Storm Rush but better.

Stormrush

Stormrush is too predictable.
Stormrush is too predictable.
Stormrush is too predictable.

You get it Ubi or I need to write it again and again ? The 2 steps cancel is ridiculous, because if you are far from your opponent there are no real pressure and he can just wait and block without fear and if you are close, he can just GB and punish you.
And if you actually simply land it, you get parried. Nice

So they must increase the distance before the cancel and since the move is very predictable, they should make it unblockable. Or maybe the animation need to be slightly faster to stick with the orochi counter gameplay.


I know that the devs rely on big data to buff/nef classes, which is stupid in my humble opinion because the numbers are based on average or "bad" gamers results and it doesn't reflect the reality. So let me help you a little bit to do your job with "data" :

http://strawpoll.com/yy1bye7
https://strawpoll.com/yy1bye7


- Deflect triggered by dodge + light
- deflect + light + light > Wind Gust The following light must be faster and the dmg must be higher
- deflect + heavy > Hurricane Blast add hyper Armor and make the animation a little bit faster. If the opponent dodges, you can cancel to GB. The dmg must be higher than Parry
- Riptide : cancel + iframes
- Stormrush : unblockable + later cancel

I ran PK and had issues with deflect at first myself. It works but it is however still highly risky with little reward. IMO Orochi/berserker have the better abilities after deflect. Orochi having a light and heavy follow up and the zerker having his auto GB. They are both awesome. Hell even the PK bleed after deflect is good, just now always as viable since its range seems off during the combo.

Practice makes perfect. It's about muscle memory

corazondedelfin
04-08-2017, 02:20 PM
I ran PK and had issues with deflect at first myself. It works but it is however still highly risky with little reward. IMO Orochi/berserker have the better abilities after deflect. Orochi having a light and heavy follow up and the zerker having his auto GB. They are both awesome. Hell even the PK bleed after deflect is good, just now always as viable since its range seems off during the combo.

Practice makes perfect. It's about muscle memory


Delete yourself from internet, orochi has REAL no follow up but at light normal attack... If you have no idea why do you talk? Really, delete yourself from internet. From commentaries like you is why the developers think that orochi is fine.

corazondedelfin
04-08-2017, 11:31 PM
Bumping, just because Banzai deserves an official answer like the day you wrote in my Orochi thread (even it ended in nothing nowadays as nothing was done lol)

UbiJurassic
04-09-2017, 12:49 AM
Hey BanzaiSuitGuy, thanks for the feedback regarding the assassin deflect mechanic. While it is unlikely that we will remove it from the game, we will certainly take your thoughts regarding it into consideration.

Delectable_Sin
04-09-2017, 01:17 AM
Deflect is useless on all assassins.

I think they just need to make stormrush faster, with the ability to choose where the attack comes from.

NickyNoNeko
04-09-2017, 03:16 PM
Hey BanzaiSuitGuy, thanks for the feedback regarding the assassin deflect mechanic. While it is unlikely that we will remove it from the game, we will certainly take your thoughts regarding it into consideration.


Thank you for your attention @UbiJurassic, I really appreciate that.

Regards

CitizenPuddi
04-09-2017, 03:19 PM
Deflect is useless on all assassins.

I think they just need to make stormrush faster, with the ability to choose where the attack comes from.

I dunno.

Berserker deflect is pretty useful.

Vingrask
04-09-2017, 04:13 PM
I have a decent brain and I use deflect for fun and for surprise the enemy. Only one guy until today abused that and was Berserker vs Berserker, a matchup that I just hate. The fights are unpleasure. I hate parry and how you have low effort to perform that. I like the challenge deflect offer, the risk, and how you demoralize the enemy doing a move that nobody should do. The point is know when to use and how to use.

Parry to GB is pathetic. With the no-cost block is everything wrong with the game. You don't even need dominate your hero to be competitive: since you mastered the timing for parry even lights, you are a pro. Imagine on SF you dominate, I don't know, a grab, and it allow you to be competitive. You don't need combos or master your hero, your mastered one core mechanic and it is done.
Reason why I rather lose playing than just being boring cheap. In the rare ocasions I parry, when the situation demand it, I do not follow up with a GB, but I try a mixup instead. I will not help making this game even more boring and I note that people really enjoy play against me, losing or winning. My friend list grow day after day because that.

What Ubisoft should do is make parry more like deflect: every hero has it's own follow-up. Add stamina cost for block and increase the chip damage for heavies, so you have a reason to try parry no matter if you think it's worth or not. With parry just changing who is on offensive, like deflect basically do today, everyone will need master the hero and know mixups to be competitive. Done, we ended the turtle!