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View Full Version : Warden Shoulder Bash Into Guard Break Needs To Be Removed!



cane2simons
04-08-2017, 01:14 AM
Warden's ability to cancel a shoulder bash into a guard break is very powerful, with a low risk high reward.
My warden is prestige 7, which is also my highest prestige character. Ive won countless 1 v 1 battles using the shoulder bash and shoulder bash cancel into guard break. It's very unfair.
As stated before its a very low risk and high reward, unless you charge the shoulder bash.
If you're playing against a warden 1 v 1 who spams shoulder bash, your MAIN two options is to dodge and risk getting guard broken, or don't dodge and risk getting hit.
Your GUARANTEED options of avoiding his shoulder bash is exiting guard mode and running, or simply backrolling. The easiest to do is backroll so lets touch on that.
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Ive faced many wardens who spam the shoulder bash. If you backroll everytime he executes (not start up. EXECUTE, as in he starts moving) a shoulder bash to simply eliminate the risk of getting hit altogether, you waste stamina quite easily, making it a temporary but non consistent way of avoiding it. Therefore in 1 v 1 it is not effective long term and you will eventually run out of stamina. Exiting guard mode and running away is not viable unless you're in a 4 v 4. Therefore in duels it is not effective.
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So both running away and backrolling, your GUARANTEED chances of avoiding his shoulder bash are tossed out the window in duels.
Oh wait, what about hitting him before he can execute it? Not always an easy thing to do. He can easily intentionally cancel his shoulder bash wind up immediately and parry the attack, leading to a free guard break.
You can also keep your distance, but let's be real, not EVERYONE plays nobushi and this is a close combat game.
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Believe me when i say avoiding this tactic in a 1 v 1 is based on luck unless you keep your distance entirely. I would know this because ive used it countless times against even high skilled players, and assassins, and it WORKS!
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Bottom line, if you try to dodge a shoulder bash, you risk getting guard broken and therefore getting hit. If you don't dodge it you get hit. If you get exhausted its even WORST!
Avoiding this is based on sheer luck. This needs to be changed.
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Shoulder bash should not be able to be canceled into into anything once it starts moving. It should still be able to be canceled during the startup. But once you starts moving you should be forced to follow through, and the recovery time should be removed along with shoulder bash cancel into guard break, as in: If your shoulder bash is dodged, you shouldn't be able to be guard broken since the shoulder bash is quite slow.
Remove shoulder bash into guard break, and to balance it, remove the recovery time after you execute a shoulder bash so you wont get guard broken.
If these changes are implemented: shoulder bash will still be slow but un-cancelable, so you wont be at a high risk or high reward, but you WILL have a way to break an enemy's defense.
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I will update this if need be. If you have any questions or arguements against this post them below. I can clearly see the difference between logical and illogical arguements. mainly looking at sheer facts and through experience. Ill ignore extremely irrational arguements. -.-
If you're wondering why i havent replaced Shoulder Bash and Guard Break with SB and GB, it's because i want everyone to understand clearly what im talking about, incase they don't know what SB and GB mean.

bmason1000
04-08-2017, 01:26 AM
I regularly dodge that attack and watch them miss their guard break. That move isn't nearrrly as powerful as you claim. Its a perfectly acceptable piece of their kit that is just fine.

SerArthur-Dayne
04-08-2017, 01:31 AM
Or hit them with a light attack which cancels their shoulder bash. Easy.

bmason1000
04-08-2017, 01:49 AM
Yeah, its a really simple technique to deal with. I'm surprised you main warden and have trouble handling it against others?

cane2simons
04-08-2017, 01:55 AM
Or hit them with a light attack which cancels their shoulder bash. Easy.

Read my post. Not always an easy thing to do, unless youre a berserker, who has the fastest side lights. But even a wardens top light is a little too slow to cancel it everytime. Here's what i said:
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"Oh wait, what about hitting him before he can execute it? Not always an easy thing to do. He can easily intentionally cancel his shoulder bash wind up immediately and parry the attack, leading to a free guard break."

cane2simons
04-08-2017, 01:58 AM
Yeah, its a really simple technique to deal with. I'm surprised you main warden and have trouble handling it against others?

There's a reason many players complain about warden and his shoulder bash. But im not here to "cry nerf" im here to lay down hard facts as to why it should be changed. I would happily 1 v 1 someone to show them just how troublesome a shoulder bash spamming warden is in 1 v 1.

cane2simons
04-08-2017, 02:00 AM
I regularly dodge that attack and watch them miss their guard break. That move isn't nearrrly as powerful as you claim. Its a perfectly acceptable piece of their kit that is just fine.

Clearly you haven't met a warden who knows how to utilize his shoulder bash lmao...

darkspawn2101
04-08-2017, 02:38 AM
I hate the fact it exists.

I hate fighting it, I hate playing it. it's boring. The only light I've been able to interrupt the charge with is Shugoki, for the range.

MrForz
04-08-2017, 02:41 AM
When used to full potential, it all comes down to 3 guesses.

-Dodge and risk a cancel into GB
-Stand there in order to counteract the GB and risk eating a raw Shoulder Bash.
-Toss a light attack in order to counteract both the SB and GB and risk a well timed parry.

Now, I do say -risk-. It's not like whatever you do he'll remedy to it. You'll have to learn the hard way whether your Warden opponent tries to be flexible on his methods, or not. Or tried to make you believe he's not flexible, and stuff. And some of the guesses above don't favor the Warden at all and can get him to be punished.

RoosterIlluzion
04-08-2017, 03:17 AM
Practice your parry. Warden has to either dodge or use light attack to initiate the charge. If he does a dodge for no reason, get ready to roll. If he tries hitting with a light, parry. Stop crying about a character that is average in all aspects, and is balanced, just because you suck.

wethebishop
04-08-2017, 05:58 AM
I imagine that they'll change it eventually because it's such a glaring problem (constantly spammed). Just wait for it; it will come. I mean, they just destroyed the Conqueror for competitive play in the most recent patch. Spamming one ability repeatedly throughout a match will prevent this game from reaching the next level.

Duuklah
04-08-2017, 07:04 AM
Its OP AF and its a dumb ability. You dont even need to use standard key inputs to cancel into a GB. you just press GB. its too easy and too smooth to execute.

****in dumb.

B.00n
04-08-2017, 07:12 AM
Warden' shoulder bass is slow and short range, if you remove the ability to cancel into gb then ppl can 100% dodge and free gb the warden, so the ability will never be use again, because, why would he use it knowing that he will be gb.
In fact, it is not 50/50 for you only, it is for the warden as well, because if you dodge successfully and gb, he's ****ed.
Oh I have another solution for you, may we make the shoulder bass uncancelable into gb but make it fast like warlord headbutt, how about that :))

cragar212
04-08-2017, 07:56 AM
Well I dunno if they should remove it since it's such a large part of his kit.

Should atleast jack up the stamina cost alot.

nagya12356
04-08-2017, 08:00 AM
If Wardens shoulder bash into gb is removed the he is completly useles cause the shoulder bash is easy to doge. Dont remove it Warden needs a complete rework, cause if the shoulder bash gets nerfed then he will be useless

cane2simons
04-08-2017, 03:52 PM
Practice your parry. Warden has to either dodge or use light attack to initiate the charge. If he does a dodge for no reason, get ready to roll. If he tries hitting with a light, parry. Stop crying about a character that is average in all aspects, and is balanced, just because you suck.

This point is completely invalid...If you read my post thoroughly you would get what im saying and not say random stuff. As stated before, if you roll everytime he executes a shoulder bash, you will lose stamina rapidly. I never talked about if the warden you're fighting uses a light, what are you talking about? Read my post again before saying nonsense please...

cane2simons
04-08-2017, 03:55 PM
Warden' shoulder bass is slow and short range, if you remove the ability to cancel into gb then ppl can 100% dodge and free gb the warden, so the ability will never be use again, because, why would he use it knowing that he will be gb.
In fact, it is not 50/50 for you only, it is for the warden as well, because if you dodge successfully and gb, he's ****ed.
Oh I have another solution for you, may we make the shoulder bass uncancelable into gb but make it fast like warlord headbutt, how about that :))

Read my post again please, you stated: "if you remove the ability to cancel into gb then ppl can 100% dodge and free gb the warden"
As i said in my post, remove the ability to cancel shoulder bash into a guard break, but ALSO remove the warden's recovery time after a shoulder bash so he cant be freely guard broken after such a slow attack. This gives the warden an ability that has no drastic risk's or reward, but DOES give the warden a way to break an opponents defense. Unlike the way it is now where he has a VERY low risk and a very high reward for using it, not to mention the fact that it can be spammed.

cane2simons
04-08-2017, 03:56 PM
Warden' shoulder bass is slow and short range, if you remove the ability to cancel into gb then ppl can 100% dodge and free gb the warden, so the ability will never be use again, because, why would he use it knowing that he will be gb.
In fact, it is not 50/50 for you only, it is for the warden as well, because if you dodge successfully and gb, he's ****ed.
Oh I have another solution for you, may we make the shoulder bass uncancelable into gb but make it fast like warlord headbutt, how about that :))

Read my post again please, you stated: "if you remove the ability to cancel into gb then ppl can 100% dodge and free gb the warden"
As i said in my post, remove the ability to cancel shoulder bash into a guard break, but ALSO remove the warden's recovery time after a shoulder bash so he cant be freely guard broken after such a slow attack. This gives the warden an ability that has no drastic risk's or reward, but DOES give the warden a way to break an opponents defense. Unlike the way it is now where he has a VERY low risk and a very high reward for using it, not to mention the fact that it can be spammed.

Kaijudub
04-08-2017, 03:57 PM
Yup remove his one decent move.

If you need to do anything to the warden its increase stam usage on the SB..

cane2simons
04-08-2017, 03:59 PM
If Wardens shoulder bash into gb is removed the he is completly useles cause the shoulder bash is easy to doge. Dont remove it Warden needs a complete rework, cause if the shoulder bash gets nerfed then he will be useless

Warden has EXCELLENT utility and versatility. His shoulder bash is just way too spammable and overpowered. Read my post again as i CLEARLY explained how to make shoulderbash fair for both the warden and the people he's fighting. Because as the shoulder bash is now, warden benefits way too much from it while his enemies have very few ways to counter it when facing a warden who knows how to spam shoulder bash the right way. As stated, his shoulder bash in its current state is a very low risk very high reward when used right. This needs to be changed.

cane2simons
04-08-2017, 04:02 PM
Yup remove his one decent move.

If you need to do anything to the warden its increase stam usage on the SB..

He has a very fast top light, a top light counter, and a fast zone. But im not here to say "remove warden's only decent move", im saying tweak the one move that makes him extremely hard to deal with in a one on one fight. It's the same with conqueror (ill make a thread on that later) conqueror is pretty bad in general, and cant feint, but he has one move, the shield bash, that lets him win almost any 1v1 when he know's what he's doing. Bottom line is:
Rebalancing. Don't make characters who suck but have one VERY good move, make them good (not VERY good) but good ALL ROUND.

Kaijudub
04-08-2017, 04:07 PM
He has a very fast top light, a top light counter, and a fast zone. But im not here to say "remove warden's only decent move", im saying tweak the one move that makes him extremely hard to deal with in a one on one fight. It's the same with conqueror (ill make a thread on that later) conqueror is pretty bad in general, and cant feint, but he has one move, the shield bash, that lets him win almost any 1v1 when he know's what he's doing. Bottom line is:
Rebalancing. Don't make characters who suck but have one VERY good move, make them good (not VERY good) but good ALL ROUND.

Keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better dude.

He's very predictable other than the sb / gb mix up... Other wise the devs would have looked at him straight away :)

cane2simons
04-08-2017, 04:29 PM
He's very predictable other than the sb / gb mix up...
I agree he should have an ability thats not that predictable, but not an ability that has low risk high reward.

Kaijudub
04-08-2017, 04:46 PM
I agree he should have an ability thats not that predictable, but not an ability that has low risk high reward.

It only has low risk / high reward when the other player is out of stamina, and even then an eager sb is still dodgable.

It's stopbable by many with a light, zones work on others or just roll backwards. The problem you have is that if you evade the sb by rolling the Warden has enough stam to do the move 2/3 more times before he has to stam manage. Increasing the stam usage would stop this imo.

By the way I'm a rep 15 warden on PS4, so i'm going to be a little bias i guess but i also believe it puts me in a position to say that it is beatable, and avoidable. I swear other wardens see my rep score and think the only way to beat me is to vortex...

Sometimes though it really is the only way in on some defensive players.

Specialkha
04-08-2017, 04:58 PM
There were bigger issues to deal with first than Warden. Now that warlord/PK/Conq have been nerfed, it will be the turn of Warden/Valk/Shugoki.

Kaijudub
04-08-2017, 05:02 PM
There were bigger issues to deal with first than Warden. Now that warlord/PK/Conq have been nerfed, it will be the turn of Warden/Valk/Shugoki.

Valk was already dealt with btw ;) The only thing the devs had said is they wanna look at how long into your sb you can cancel the sb in gb.

Specialkha
04-08-2017, 05:11 PM
Valk has been nerfed before release and far too buffed after, they have yet to renerf her.

Kaijudub
04-08-2017, 05:15 PM
Have you got links to where they've said the valk will be being nerfed?

Specialkha
04-08-2017, 05:29 PM
Use the dev matrix.

Valk is weak only to op class (Warlord/PK/Conq/Warden/Shugoki). Once these class are nerfed, her global win rate will rise, and she will be considered OP (She is already).

Kaijudub
04-08-2017, 05:38 PM
ok

cane2simons
04-08-2017, 05:40 PM
It only has low risk / high reward when the other player is out of stamina, and even then an eager sb is still dodgable.

It's stopbable by many with a light, zones work on others or just roll backwards. The problem you have is that if you evade the sb by rolling the Warden has enough stam to do the move 2/3 more times before he has to stam manage. Increasing the stam usage would stop this imo.

By the way I'm a rep 15 warden on PS4, so i'm going to be a little bias i guess but i also believe it puts me in a position to say that it is beatable, and avoidable. I swear other wardens see my rep score and think the only way to beat me is to vortex...

Sometimes though it really is the only way in on some defensive players.

I completely agree with you on some parts of this, your most valid point, which ive heard from alot of players is that increasing the stamina cost would fix his shoulder bash spam, i strongly agree with that.

RoosterIlluzion
04-09-2017, 04:24 AM
The difference is, conqueror's shield bash is instantaneous.

BeefMan_
04-09-2017, 04:37 AM
The difference is, conqueror's shield bash is instantaneous.


It's pretty dodgeable for an instantaneous attack.

Archaelion
04-10-2017, 12:55 AM
Or hit them with a light attack which cancels their shoulder bash. Easy.

bymp