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View Full Version : Revenge Health / Defense Nerf



ArlianDeBias
04-06-2017, 10:15 PM
I feel Ubisoft has gone mostly in the right direction with the recent patch. The Revenge Gain by Injury and Defense nerf was highly welcome, and while I believe Duration was fine originally it still hasn't impacted me much personally during gameplay.

Unfortunately, I think Ubisoft has also made a big mistake and the recent nerf to Revenge Health / Defense has made Revenge pretty much useless in a 1v3 or 1v4 situation. For those who don't know, Revenge defense's maximum bonus has been reduced from 48.2% to 32.1%, a 33% decrease.

After playing Dominion matches after the recent update, I've noticed that Revenge mode is no longer a deterrent against ganking by enemies. Instead, enemies will now simply spam heavy attacks and wait until the opponent gets hit enough to die. If the revenged player tries to attack, they will get hit by heavy attacks and have major chunks of health taken away. If they block, they will be stuck endlessly blocking until enough hits come through and they die. If they parry, there will usually be enemies who didn't attack who will simply attack when the revenge player tries to take advantage of downed players.

The reason why I'm starting to see Revenge no longer feared as an anti-ganking device is because of the recent overnerf of the Revenge Health / Defense. It has become so easy to kill Revenged players that they're no longer feared in a 1v3 or 1v4 setting. It's also very unfun to be in the Revenged players position and not be able to do anything against your attackers, forced to watch as your character dies no matter how well you play against your enemies.

If Ubisoft doesn't revert this change, I foresee that ganking will become a very serious and unfun strategy in Dominion and Elimination, and this is a very sad prospect indeed.

kweassa1917
04-06-2017, 10:33 PM
If you don't want people using numbers in a team match, go do 1v1 please.

Problem solved.

THWLR14
04-06-2017, 10:34 PM
If you are being ganked 2+v1 you need to do several things, in order of importance:

1. Turtle/Contest as much as you can
2. Have your team capture their unprotected points
3. Proceed to win

Use your Revenge to survive not engage and come out on top against 2+ players, which is difficult against novice and impossible versus skilled opponents.

We.the.North
04-06-2017, 10:40 PM
Exactly. In a 2v1 situation, you are supposed to lose most of the time, because they have an unfair advantage. Revenge before was so strong it gave the lone player the edge, which isn't even close to reality.

The correct way revenge should work is to give you as much turtle potential to CONTEST the zone for as long as you can while your other team (with superior number) capture / boosts other zones.

UbiNoty
04-06-2017, 11:34 PM
Thanks for the feedback! We'll be keeping a close eye on how the new revenge system plays out and determine if further tweaks/changes need to be made from there.

SendRickPics
04-06-2017, 11:34 PM
Thanks for the feedback! We'll be keeping a close eye on how the new revenge system plays out and determine if further tweaks/changes need to be made from there.

You overdid it.

SendRickPics
04-06-2017, 11:40 PM
Revenge before was so strong it gave the lone player the edge, which isn't even close to reality.

Tell that to the Spartans at Thermopylae (and no I don't mean the film "300"'s depiction of that event). Dudes must have been max revenge build all the way to kill off over a million Persians.

Jokes aside, the INTENT of Revenge Mode is not "just to survive and turtle", the fact that it increases damage output implies that it is to be used to give the outnumbered player(s) a chance to turn the tables.

Hell this was even stated by a Ubisoft Dev in this interview!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNhGo4QDSG4

pure_energist
04-06-2017, 11:49 PM
Thanks for the feedback! We'll be keeping a close eye on how the new revenge system plays out and determine if further tweaks/changes need to be made from there.

There is a lot of debate on what UBI had intended with this game mechanic. With this nerf it appears it was not designed to be a group counter attack but just a way to provide breathing room when attacked by multiple enemies.. allowing an escape or holding ground for a brief period. Can you give us a clear vision on how this mechanic was meant to be utilized?

A4einboy
04-06-2017, 11:52 PM
ok ok I don't mind that u didn't buff raider but please don't do this to the revenge on consoles plzzzzz

Gray360UK
04-06-2017, 11:52 PM
Tell that to the Spartans at Thermopylae (and no I don't mean the film "300"'s depiction of that event). Dudes must have been max revenge build all the way to kill off over a million Persians.

Jokes aside, the INTENT of Revenge Mode is not "just to survive and turtle", the fact that it increases damage output implies that it is to be used to give the outnumbered player(s) a chance to turn the tables.

Hell this was even stated by a Ubisoft Dev in this interview!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNhGo4QDSG4

Notice you left out the part where she says Revenge allows you to flee.

That doesn't fit your argument I guess? ;)

sgtpickles
04-07-2017, 12:00 AM
Personally, I'm done with the game for now since 4v4 game modes were my bread and butter. They are boring gank fests now. It's magnitudes more frustrating because the matchmaking is so bad that you don't get teammates at your level. I never had trouble with revenge as you should just be using crowd control to help one or two guys get in the damage. If someone got revenge against me in 1v1, I would just run or turtle up.

Ubisoft, which game modes were low to medium activity and which were high to very high? I think you would realize that 4v4 was already the better mode... because of buffs, feats, and revenge!

UbiNoty
04-07-2017, 12:16 AM
There is a lot of debate on what UBI had intended with this game mechanic. With this nerf it appears it was not designed to be a group counter attack but just a way to provide breathing room when attacked by multiple enemies.. allowing an escape or holding ground for a brief period. Can you give us a clear vision on how this mechanic was meant to be utilized?

Unfortunately, I can't give you a clear-cut definition on how revenge is supposed to be used. Revenge is a mechanic we introduced to allow for more dynamic gameplay.

There's no right or wrong way to use it and we don't want to pigeon-hole revenge into a specific method or playstyle. Initially the concept was to allow for some kind of comeback mechanism in unbalanced fights, but that doesn't necessarily mean that's the only way it can be used.

Most players with revenge probably won't win in a 1v4, but you could still do it if you managed to pull off some really sick moves (and the enemy dun goofed). Maybe you use revenge to stave off your gankers while your team captures points, or to buy time while your squad comes with the backup. Or you use revenge to knock them down, run away and heal so you can live to fight again.

Like in any game, it's a tool - what you do with it and how you use it is up to you and your creativity. But on the same note, as a tool, we saw that it was creating an unbalanced game environment - which is why we made the nerfs we did in today's patch.

Does that help?

Herbstlicht
04-07-2017, 12:18 AM
You guys are weird. Many mechanics still make revenege still strong as hell. Knockdown on parry. If you only time 1 parry correct at the incoming hits, you parry all in the same timeframes, you knock down all that struck you. If you have a defensive hero, you can now use sime skills, heal, then continue turtling while your teammates take the map or kill those cowards from behind.
If you are an assassin .. my bad. You have a harder time here. Full block stance ftw I guess.

Anyway, you can even build in a different way now without hurting yourself too much. Diversity.
Besides, when leveling your next char, he won't have that hard disadvantes as before.
Isn't that nice? Or am I just weird to see advantages.

sgtpickles
04-07-2017, 12:51 AM
<snip>

Except due to some character skill sets, revenge is still overpowered (they were the problem before... infinite knockdowns). For others, it is now essentially useless.

pure_energist
04-07-2017, 01:05 AM
Unfortunately, I can't give you a clear-cut definition on how revenge is supposed to be used. Revenge is a mechanic we introduced to allow for more dynamic gameplay.

There's no right or wrong way to use it and we don't want to pigeon-hole revenge into a specific method or playstyle. Initially the concept was to allow for some kind of comeback mechanism in unbalanced fights, but that doesn't necessarily mean that's the only way it can be used.

Most players with revenge probably won't win in a 1v4, but you could still do it if you managed to pull off some really sick moves (and the enemy dun goofed). Maybe you use revenge to stave off your gankers while your team captures points, or to buy time while your squad comes with the backup. Or you use revenge to knock them down, run away and heal so you can live to fight again.

Like in any game, it's a tool - what you do with it and how you use it is up to you and your creativity. But on the same note, as a tool, we saw that it was creating an unbalanced game environment - which is why we made the nerfs we did in today's patch.

Does that help?

Well the nerf I think speak for themselves in your intent on how revenge is ideally used. You may not provide a clear cut definition but this patch diminished its ability to strongly attack, therefore, providing more incentive to not use it to attack unless confident in our skill to do so. I suppose my true question then is if Revenge was ever considered to be an anti gank mechanic in the first place? The team doing it knows they will activate revenge, but perhaps this wasn't something supposed to be overtly feared in the first place?? But just something that would mean a longer struggle then if the mechanic wasn't in place to begin with.. I guess the confusion is in if this mechanic was supposed to deter team attacks in the first place? When we saw this game there was impressions that the For Honor mean't attempting to fight out duels with other players... EVEN in 4 V 4 mode the duels would exist and anyone disturbing this duel would then face a hefty punishment by unleashing a "revenge" mechanic that would allow the person with the mode to have the best chance to win. I enjoyed revenge with this vision, but what I didn't enjoy was how it was built and activated during 1 vs 1 fights.. SO with these new patch I now have to wonder if my vision was never the UBI's vision.. and revenge wasn't a deterrent at all but just an extra boost to help survive a team attack... You want team attacks, aren't doing much to discourage them so obviously it must be a game design..which actually makes sense considering how many classes have disabling abilities that create team attack combos. SO my final thoughts are I guess perhaps help illuminate the gaming community on what your mechanics purpose were and explain that these team attacks are actually a design, and dispel all notions there is a honor system in 4 V 4 modes.

Bob__Gnarly
04-07-2017, 01:14 AM
You guys are weird. Many mechanics still make revenege still strong as hell. Knockdown on parry. If you only time 1 parry correct at the incoming hits, you parry all in the same timeframes, you knock down all that struck you. If you have a defensive hero, you can now use sime skills, heal, then continue turtling while your teammates take the map or kill those cowards from behind.
If you are an assassin .. my bad. You have a harder time here. Full block stance ftw I guess.

Anyway, you can even build in a different way now without hurting yourself too much. Diversity.
Besides, when leveling your next char, he won't have that hard disadvantes as before.
Isn't that nice? Or am I just weird to see advantages.

I think most of the complaints are coming from players that got used to the revenge 'I win' button and now don't know how to actually play now.

Felis_Menari
04-07-2017, 01:34 AM
Base defense and attack stats no longer factor in while revenge is active. I think this, more than anything, is what you're feeling.

Knight.Bishop
04-07-2017, 02:35 AM
I personally don't think these changes were on the mark. You die immediately when 2-3 people are ganging up on you, without any real way to stall.

People were getting used to the old revenge mechanics. The offense was way too strong, and the defense was also a little too strong, but not by the amount it was nerfed.

Eleanor-Ripley
04-07-2017, 06:02 AM
Revenge HAD to be chaged this way. People were building their chars around revenge, opting for parries/blocks to trigger revenge in a revenge attack build, and THEN proceeding to attack with harder and uninteruptable attacks.

Revenge was not a balance tool. It was THE tool.

The_B0G_
04-07-2017, 06:40 AM
I haven't used the new system yet as I'm on PS4 but the way I see it, you never should of been able to take on 3-4 people for any amount of time, or consistently do it because you are popping revenge every 3 blocks and getting a near full bar of health.

4v4 should be about strategy, not being good at getting revenge and constantly fighting outnumbered and winning because of it. Stick with teams of 2 in 4v4, don't run solo, and if you do, just capture to distract and run if you're outnumbered, use a fast character.

There should be more strategy involved in dominion.

suboptiml
04-07-2017, 06:53 AM
Personally I don't think there should be any stats boosting revenge. Stat-boosted roid-rage revenge mode undermines the brilliance of the core mechanics.

twibeyslakers
04-07-2017, 06:56 AM
I agree with that as well also on console so haven't gotten it yet but have been playing with a full feat build for 2 weeks knowing this would happen and that's how you stop the baking, smoke bombs stuns were put in the game for this reason I believe you can use these as a retreat and hopefully get the 1v1 or give enough time for your team to help. Revenge was out of control along with spamming of knockdown unblockables during revenge.

teksuo1
04-07-2017, 07:08 AM
it can still achieve big plays ; but i noticed revenge duration is much more important now.

Before the change, one could ignore revenge duration and just proc many of them quickly (chances are you had time to kill the opponents within the tiny revenge window or just procced another real quick.)

Now i actually feel like i need revenge duration. (probably will have to cut into debuff resistance stat as it doesn't help with guardbreaks anymore anyways.)

bmason1000
04-07-2017, 07:34 AM
it can still achieve big plays ; but i noticed revenge duration is much more important now.

Before the change, one could ignore revenge duration and just proc many of them quickly (chances are you had time to kill the opponents within the tiny revenge window or just procced another real quick.)

Now i actually feel like i need revenge duration. (probably will have to cut into debuff resistance stat as it doesn't help with guardbreaks anymore anyways.)

Im glad I've been gearing the way I have since day 1. The "gain by" stats have always been my throwaway stat with duration being my secondary behind exhaustion recovery on that piece.

Shantak_
04-07-2017, 10:55 AM
Thanks for the feedback! We'll be keeping a close eye on how the new revenge system plays out and determine if further tweaks/changes need to be made from there.

i think u fixed it lil 2 much. i dont play duels. most of time dominiion... and 1v2 or 1v3 is prty heavy with this nerfs. so u have not a chance agaist those ppl. maybe you should separate it... that a ravange mode on 4v4 is stronger the on a 1v1 or 2v2. or just on dominion and skirmish

bananaflow2017
04-07-2017, 11:15 AM
The Problem with the ganking Kids anf revenge would be solved easy. Just set Friendly Fire on 100% and it is done

Gray360UK
04-07-2017, 12:26 PM
The Problem with the ganking Kids anf revenge would be solved easy. Just set Friendly Fire on 100% and it is done

No, you would die to your team mates more than you ever do to your enemies. Nothing about friendly fire doing 100% makes it bad for the person doing the friendly fire, only for the team mate they are hitting. You don't know people very well if you think they will care that you died while they tried to hit the enemy, they will watch you fall and kill the enemy over your dead body.