PDA

View Full Version : p-39



XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 01:11 PM
I just have to know.. were the P-39's really this good? Back in IL-2, the first versions before that last one, the P-39 stalled immensely, didn't have very good guns except the cannons etc. But now it's really amazing. I'm just wondering.. if it was this good why didn't people like it in real life? I think they just fixed up the P-39 cause people kept whining about it stalling every 2 seconds and now it's unrealistic, in my opinion anyways.

Honestly, who came up with this poem to begin with?

Don't give me a p-39,
With the engine mounted behind,
It'll tumble and roll,
And dig a deep hole
Don't give me a P-39.

It'll stall out and spin,
And soon auger in,
Don't give me a P-39

It has to have been written for something.

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 01:11 PM
I just have to know.. were the P-39's really this good? Back in IL-2, the first versions before that last one, the P-39 stalled immensely, didn't have very good guns except the cannons etc. But now it's really amazing. I'm just wondering.. if it was this good why didn't people like it in real life? I think they just fixed up the P-39 cause people kept whining about it stalling every 2 seconds and now it's unrealistic, in my opinion anyways.

Honestly, who came up with this poem to begin with?

Don't give me a p-39,
With the engine mounted behind,
It'll tumble and roll,
And dig a deep hole
Don't give me a P-39.

It'll stall out and spin,
And soon auger in,
Don't give me a P-39

It has to have been written for something.

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 01:48 PM
I believe there are verses like that for many US planes, and the reason for them is entertainment. I believe the problem with P39s was spinning and spin recovery. Chuck Yaeger liked the P39, perhaps there were reasons for that as well.

If you have test data showing at what speeds AoA and G-loads the VVS P39s stalled at feel free to compare them with what you find in game.

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 02:17 PM
with the patch, you can recover from a P39 spin in a few seconds (no more than a couple of rotation).
it's very easy to handle... not like it was feared for.


Ou Vais-je?
Ou Cours-Je?
Dans quel Etat j'Erre?

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 02:40 PM
But before the patch, it was impossible to spin with the P-39 /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


From the P-39Q-1 pilot's manual:

"...if the procedure above is followed, the airplane will recover in one-half turn. If the procedure is not followed closely, the aircraft may not recover."

Cheers,

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 02:48 PM
CHDT wrote:
- But before the patch, it was impossible to spin with
- the P-39
Wrong... go and download Pegase_Benj video from France-Simulation... you'll see a P-39 maintening a looong spin. (dozens of turns)

- From the P-39Q-1 pilot's manual:
-
- "...if the procedure above is followed, the airplane
- will recover in one-half turn. If the procedure is
- not followed closely, the aircraft may not recover."

Right... but with the patch you don't even need a procedure... just release stick input and it will recover in half a turn.

if it was the case in reality, they wouldn't have needed a procedure...


Ou Vais-je?
Ou Cours-Je?
Dans quel Etat j'Erre?

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 02:52 PM
Well, I found this link very interesting:

http://airforce.users.ru/lend-lease/english/articles/romanenko/index.htm

There you can find some kill/loss ratios by Russian squadrons equipped with P-39's.

When you take a combat record like this:

"For example, already on 15 June 6 Airacobras intercepted 6 bombers and 16 escort Bf-110 fighters in the area of Murmashy airfield, flying to bomb Murmansk. As a result of the aerial engagement that followed, 9 German aircraft were shot down without losses to the Soviet side."

the Airacobra could not have been such a bad plane after all.

And just one word about stalls and spins: It's not the same.
The Cobra had a tendency to enter a nasty spin because of the location of the engine. This does tell you nothing about it's turn characteristics, it does not determine when you leave the flight envelope in a horizontal turn for example.

IMHO this is very well modelled in 1.1b, When you do certain vertical moves without enough energy, your engine weight will draw you into a flatspin. When you do the same move in a nose heavy plane, the plane will stall, but the nose will soon point to the ground, and you can catch it again.

Greetings,

ICAG_Frog

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 03:00 PM
Hey... I never said P39 was a bad plane...

Just (that you also said) it had a reputation for nasty spin...

you can do whatever you want with FB 1.1b.... you'll never enter a "nasty spin"... period.
(a "nasty spin" that you can recover in less than one spin turn isn't "nasty at all)

For the rest, I don't give any judgement


Ou Vais-je?
Ou Cours-Je?
Dans quel Etat j'Erre?


Message Edited on 08/13/0303:03PM by pegase_rama

ZG77_Nagual
08-13-2003, 03:16 PM
If the spin gets out of hand it is very difficult to recover - this happens as the spin 'flattens' I tested this last night and got into several inadvertant spins - I was able to recover from all of them though one took a few rotations. If they get flat you can forget it.
Flying the 39 the according to the recollections of vvs pilots it is a very good dogfighter.

http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/p47janes.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 03:19 PM
pegase_rama,

when you read the story under the link I have posted, you will find a report from a test which was conducted by the VVS after pilots had reported this spin tendency. It took a test pilot a full hour to find the weak spot in the handling.

Please keep in mind that we are not talking about something which happened to every pilot in every flight. We are talking about a build-in accident, so to speak, something which did not happen this often, but when it occured it killed inexpirienced pilots on a frequent basis.

And BTW, it's there in FB, just try the following: try to do a loop at around 320 km/h IAS, When you are over the top and your plane begins to "swim", apply sharp rudder. Your plane will tumble, and most often you will come down tail first. Ta-dah, a flat spin.

Try the same in any other plane and you will stall nose first, the plane will recover by itself.



Message Edited on 08/13/0302:20PM by ICAG_Frog

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 03:37 PM
I did... (one of the firs thing I did with the patch)...

And I recovered from the flat spin (not so flat...) in less than 2 spin turn.
I tried again a half-dozen of times... same result

On our squad, one of our hobby is a stunt-flying patrol (you can download the video from http://www.france-simulation.com/ on the video download page)... and what we found it's that in all aspect the handling of the P39-Q10 was much easier than before.
I don't know if it's realistic or not.... just the spin handling seems a bit to easy to me actually



Ou Vais-je?
Ou Cours-Je?
Dans quel Etat j'Erre?

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 04:07 PM
Well, I do not claim to be any kind of expert, it's just that I had done the exact same test first after getting the patch, and I was pretty impressed because I thought I could really feel the weight of the tail section dragging me into the spin. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Just two more points:

First, I said inexperienced pilots. There was a recovery procedure, but it had to be applied instantly. When the pilot lost his head and let the spin develop he was in great danger.

Second, Bell adressed the problem after being told by the Soviets that it was there. I think beginning with the Q-versions the balance of the plane was altered.

Greetings,

ICAG_Frog

(You might want to look at our side, BTW, a LOT of historical documents are there. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://www.icaghq.com )

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 04:22 PM
ICAG_Frog wrote:
- Second, Bell adressed the problem after being told
- by the Soviets that it was there. I think beginning
- with the Q-versions the balance of the plane was
- altered.
Ok, that's good info, I'll try with the N-version




Ou Vais-je?
Ou Cours-Je?
Dans quel Etat j'Erre?

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 04:29 PM
P39 is very good now I suspect this ac flight model is very close to the real deal

<center><FONT COLOR="white">ӚFJ-M œ R D ˜ ӡ[/i]</font>

<center> http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_109_1059752328.jpg </center>

<center><FONT COLOR="white">The "Ace Edge"(c).
With my incremental trim
I am actually able to turn so quickly that, I never turn at all.
In Fact the Planet Earth rotates around the Axis of My PC, thus giving me the optimum turn rate and insuring that you
the bandit are promptly fraged !!!
In memory Of Ray R.I.P.[/i]</font>

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 04:32 PM
MOH_TRACKER wrote:
- I just have to know.. were the P-39's really this
- good? Back in IL-2, the first versions before that
- last one, the P-39 stalled immensely, didn't have
- very good guns except the cannons etc. But now it's
- really amazing. I'm just wondering.. if it was this
- good why didn't people like it in real life? I think
- they just fixed up the P-39 cause people kept
- whining about it stalling every 2 seconds and now
- it's unrealistic, in my opinion anyways.
-
- Honestly, who came up with this poem to begin with?
-
- Don't give me a p-39,
- With the engine mounted behind,
- It'll tumble and roll,
- And dig a deep hole
- Don't give me a P-39.
-
- It'll stall out and spin,
- And soon auger in,
- Don't give me a P-39
-
- It has to have been written for something.



the reason it got a bad reputation is because it was almost exclusivly used in the pacific theater(by the USA). it didnt have a very good range which made it a bad fighter for its theater. but when it got to the east and range wasnt such a big problem it was far superior to any other russian plane up till the La 7



the p 39 stalls more easily now than pre patch. if your a good pilot it will treat you well.



flying online as 25th_Inmate



http://www.vfa25.com/sigs/inmate.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 04:53 PM
ryan2107 wrote:
- the p 39 stalls more easily now than pre patch.

Sorry, but I have the exact opposite feeling (with the stunt tests)



Ou Vais-je?
Ou Cours-Je?
Dans quel Etat j'Erre?

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 06:26 PM
I have no idea if the current P-39 FM is dead-on perfect or not, as I am not intimately familiar with the exact characteristics of the actual plane.

However, flying at 5000 meters, just by executing a simple upwards turn to starboard, I was able to get the P-39N into a real nasty flat spin from which there was no way to recover.

***************************************

"Oh no, the V-1 Doodlebug is heading for our bunghole!" ---David

"...I possess the wings of faith. Though heavy on my shoulder (no measurement can prove their weight), still a burden are they not to me. I am the challenger of gravity." ---Emperor