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Oso2323
03-04-2004, 07:33 PM
Just installed AEP, and I pretty much like it.

I did however run into an awkward situation: I set up a battle with me and my wingman flying non-clipped wing Spits, and the bad guys flying bf109g-2's. The nub: I found it very hard to impossible to out turn the 109's, even at low speeds. I see one of three possibilites:

1) The Spit is under modelled
2) The 109g-2 is over modelled
3) I am an idiot who couldn't turn a shopping cart, let alone a Spitfire.

Now I'm personally thinking that number 3 is somewhere in the mix, but I'd like to hear some opinions.

Again, overall I think that AEP is pretty fun.

P.S. That Spit - she isn't fast like the Hurricane!

Oso2323
03-04-2004, 07:33 PM
Just installed AEP, and I pretty much like it.

I did however run into an awkward situation: I set up a battle with me and my wingman flying non-clipped wing Spits, and the bad guys flying bf109g-2's. The nub: I found it very hard to impossible to out turn the 109's, even at low speeds. I see one of three possibilites:

1) The Spit is under modelled
2) The 109g-2 is over modelled
3) I am an idiot who couldn't turn a shopping cart, let alone a Spitfire.

Now I'm personally thinking that number 3 is somewhere in the mix, but I'd like to hear some opinions.

Again, overall I think that AEP is pretty fun.

P.S. That Spit - she isn't fast like the Hurricane!

BuzzU
03-04-2004, 07:38 PM
I don't want to say I pick #3, but the Spit turns good.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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Cardinal25
03-04-2004, 07:45 PM
You cannot judge FM's by what the AI does, AI has simple FM's that do not conform with player FM's.

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Oso2323
03-04-2004, 08:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:
I don't want to say I pick #3, but the Spit turns good.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A bit of background: I used to outturn 109's quite easily in the 1.21 Hurricane and P-40.

frag_bravo
03-04-2004, 08:18 PM
I must be dumb too Cause I cant turn a shoping cart either.LMAO

Flamin_Squirrel
03-04-2004, 08:25 PM
The spit is indeed a fantastic turner. However, the AI is not a good test. I have been trying out the new planes in the QMB, but gave up after a while because of the AI's rather silly flying antics.

When you get close behind them they tend to chop throttle and stall fight. The 109 isnt too bad at this (better than the spit maybe? not sure). If you can stay behind them, they'll go into a downward spiral untill they get to the ground and have to pull up... or as ive seen several times to my dismay today, pile into the ground.

The AI tactics work very well to make for a difficult shot, but they end up low and slow, which is not the place to be. This isnt a realistic tactic for Luftwaffe aircraft imo, and certainly not something you'll see often online.

mike_espo
03-04-2004, 09:05 PM
I recently flew a zero 21 online vs spit 5 cw. and he turned inside me! Shot me down. Spit turns great.

VW-IceFire
03-04-2004, 09:12 PM
We've heard that the Bf109 G-2 is a bit too good sometimes but whatever the case is...it should be very close in a turn fight. There are many times where it could be back and forth in terms of who's going to get the best turn based on situation...

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Gibbage1
03-04-2004, 09:25 PM
Well the 109 has wing slats and combat flaps. The Spit has none of the two. So low and slow and the Spit will loose if the 109 uses the combat flaps. The AI does. The AI will even knock it down to landing flaps at times!

Destroyer110
03-04-2004, 09:31 PM
Damn! you got aces already! I've still have to wait weeks in Oz.

I hope the AI is alot better, FB AI was VERY BAD ... even I could out fly an ACE!

Cannot wait to fly C.R.42 v Gladiator.

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JG52_wunsch
03-04-2004, 09:55 PM
spit turns fine.and at low speeds.you can stand it on its tail.amazing.nice,forgiving plane,a beaut,imho.cheers

Zacast51
03-04-2004, 10:21 PM
Combat flaps / slats or no combat flaps / slats, no 109 should ever out turn a spitty. The spitfire in all tests ever ran has shown to be superior to the 109 and inferior to the hurricane in turning ability by a fairly large margin.

The 109, when tested by the British, was actually shown to achieve its best turn performance right before the slats poped out.

Glassess
03-05-2004, 01:10 AM
Actually the early Gustav i.e. G-2 would turn really close to a Mk IX spitof course not sustained but very close in turn performance.

El Turo
03-05-2004, 01:18 AM
We're discussing the Spitfire Vb here, not a later model that would be less capable of turning.

The Vb should even match up with the 109E series at most altitudes in turning with its superior powerloading.

Hi Zac.. =]

Stalker58
03-05-2004, 01:31 AM
It's waste of time to dicsus OFFLINE FM! Please try again this time ONLINE....

Altitude, speed, manoeuvre and.... CRASH!

03-05-2004, 01:43 AM
Sorry to lay down the harsh truth, but if you can't outturn a G-2 in the AEP MarkV Spitfire, then you need more practice.

Being inside a plane that maneuvers better and has a better turn radius and turn time, is of course a tremendous advantage for the pilot. But that does not automatically mean that if you pull the stick at any given situation it will definately out turn the other.

Out turning, even the so often mentioned sustained turns, is always a relative thing to be considered.

I can out turn a Yak-3 in a Fw190A-8 if the given situation is right. I can out turn a Hurricane with a Bf109F-4 if the situation is right. In the opposite case, I can get outturned by a P-47D in a Bf109F-4, if my given situation is bad. I can get outturned in a Bf109G in a Hurricane if my situation is bad.

In short, being in a superior turning plane merely means that in general terms, you will be able to outmaneuver other planes. Step outside that line and even the best turners will simply be outturned by the worst.

I've tried the Spitfires myself. Anything short of the I-16 or the A6M in turning, has practically no chance in close-quarters turning contest even if the pilot is vastly average.

Do not forget the difference between a critical mistake that allows the enemy to gain momentary firing solution, and being "outturned". If I take my guess, I'm willing to bet this is probably what happened to you: you fought the Bf109G-2 with typical overconfidence, got overshot by the AI, and the G-2 landed behind your six. In a panic you pulled the stick and entered a hard turn, the G-2 behind you kept up, and within about 1 and 1/2 circles he probably shot you down or killed your pilot. That's not a result of being outturned. That's a result of poor combat management.

If you insist that that is not the case, I suggest you show a track.

ps) The AI does not use simplified FM - at least, there hasn't been a single proof of it being true. It's popular myth.

The AI maybe dumb in its overall judgement of the situation, but in actual technique, it's better than most human players in its excellence. Particularly with its vast array of overshoot techniques and the sharpness of its scissors. (Except the AI does the same bit over and over again - no matter how perfect a technique is, it's easy to beat if you can expect it coming).

BM357_Raven
03-05-2004, 03:05 AM
What I wanna know is how come I always end up at the Super Market with the shopping carts that dont turn?

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AWL_Spinner
03-05-2004, 04:37 AM
Not wishing to cast aspersions about the validity of point #3, and hoping not to cause offence, but you're using rudder in your turns, aren't you?

The Hurri responds well to heavy rudder use in turn fights, I don't have AEP yet so can't comment on the Spit but just in case http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Cheers, Spinner

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Fehler
03-05-2004, 05:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BM357_Raven:
What I wanna know is how come I always end up at the Super Market with the shopping carts that dont turn?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's funny you should say that Raven... I am the same way.

I attribute it to shopping styles. I like to get in, buy what I need and get out (Boom and Zoom so to speak) Thus, subconsciously, I pick carts that dont turn well, but go straight nicely. (I often ride them through the store which gets odd looks - I am 39 you know)

My wife on the other hand is a "Brouse around the place" sort of person, thus she tends to pick carts that turn well. (Turn and Burn) And she never runs fast to jump on the cart and ride it around the store.

So, perhaps.... Logically speaking... A man is a B&Zer and T&Bing is best left to... welll... ah... girls!

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S 8
03-05-2004, 05:21 AM
Try the other way around and you will see the spit turn inside youhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_113_1073048715.jpg

Skalgrim
03-05-2004, 06:02 AM
spit turn better as g2 with 250km/h ias

with 300km/h ias turn both almost same good


you must learn the strong and weakness more from differ plane

and read mark hanna, 109g was very good maneuver plane under 400km/h ias

he has spit, 109g and p51 fly etc

[This message was edited by Skalgrim on Fri March 05 2004 at 05:13 AM.]

DeerHunterUK
03-05-2004, 06:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Superluminal:
Try the other way around and you will see the spit turn inside youhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Absolutely! You've hit the nail right on the head there.

No1_Moggy
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Osirisx9
03-05-2004, 06:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mike_espo:
I recently flew a zero 21 online vs spit 5 cw. and he turned inside me! Shot me down. Spit turns great.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmnn that guy must be a real good pilot, or you are not to familiar with the Zeke. I tangled with I-153( I think thats what that little bi-plane is called) jocks online and with some crafty technic and combat flaps I am consitantly able to shoot them down but i really have to be on top of things. Thats with the A6M5a. I dont have the AEP yet, but I'm itching to get into a fight with the spit.

McVittees
03-05-2004, 08:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BM357_Raven:
What I wanna know is how come I always end up at the Super Market with the shopping carts that dont turn?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's funny you should say that Raven... I am the same way.

I attribute it to shopping styles. I like to get in, buy what I need and get out (Boom and Zoom so to speak) Thus, subconsciously, I pick carts that dont turn well, but go straight nicely. (I often ride them through the store which gets odd looks - I am 39 you know)

My wife on the other hand is a "Brouse around the place" sort of person, thus she tends to pick carts that turn well. (Turn and Burn) And she never runs fast to jump on the cart and ride it around the store.

So, perhaps.... Logically speaking... A man is a B&Zer and T&Bing is best left to... welll... ah... girls!

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http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/9JG54.html<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey! Now I know why I'm so crap at FB - I use a basket in the supermarket! Next time I go it's a trolly for me! (Can a someone over 5'10" fit in the childs seat?) http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

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HarryVoyager
03-05-2004, 09:52 AM
I would like to second Kweassa's comments, that relative pilot skill can have a very large effect on relative turn rates. I know that I personally, have defeated La-5FN pilots in turn fights, while flyng the P-47D-27, of all planes, mostly because the pilot didn't know how to get the best out of the Lavochkin.

I managed to stay with him for four circles too. The only reason I wasn't ble to shoot him down was because every time I lined up for a shot, he was over forest, and, as it was my first time online with FB, I had neglected to turn down the landscape detail. Trees==slideshow, but it still felt great.

Harry Voyager

Oso2323
03-07-2004, 12:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kweassa1:
Sorry to lay down the harsh truth, but if you can't outturn a G-2 in the AEP MarkV Spitfire, then you need more practice.

Do not forget the difference between a critical mistake that allows the enemy to gain momentary firing solution, and being "outturned". If I take my guess, I'm willing to bet this is probably what happened to you: you fought the Bf109G-2 with typical overconfidence, got overshot by the AI, and the G-2 landed behind your six. In a panic you pulled the stick and entered a hard turn, the G-2 behind you kept up, and within about 1 and 1/2 circles he probably shot you down or killed your pilot. That's not a result of being outturned. That's a result of poor combat management. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Okay, let's assume you're right. What *should* I do? A tight turn is my usual defensive move. Sometimes offensive too.

I'm still having problems turning the against the 109F4 and the G6 in any of the Spits. Either I didn't shake them, or I stalled (both high speed and low sped). Took the hurri out for a turn-fight and had no problem. Don't recall having that problem with the Yaks either.

Someone mentioned using rudder in the turns - how do you suggest I do this?

Any help is appreciated.

Oso2323
03-07-2004, 12:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kweassa1:
Sorry to lay down the harsh truth, but if you can't outturn a G-2 in the AEP MarkV Spitfire, then you need more practice.

Do not forget the difference between a critical mistake that allows the enemy to gain momentary firing solution, and being "outturned". If I take my guess, I'm willing to bet this is probably what happened to you: you fought the Bf109G-2 with typical overconfidence, got overshot by the AI, and the G-2 landed behind your six. In a panic you pulled the stick and entered a hard turn, the G-2 behind you kept up, and within about 1 and 1/2 circles he probably shot you down or killed your pilot. That's not a result of being outturned. That's a result of poor combat management. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Okay, let's assume you're right. What *should* I do? A tight turn is my usual defensive move. Sometimes offensive too.

I'm still having problems turning the against the 109F4 and the G6 in any of the Spits. Either I didn't shake them, or I stalled (both high speed and low sped). Took the hurri out for a turn-fight and had no problem. Don't recall having that problem with the Yaks either.

Someone mentioned using rudder in the turns - how do you suggest I do this?

Any help is appreciated.

03-07-2004, 01:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Okay, let's assume you're right. What *should* I do? A tight turn is my usual defensive move. Sometimes offensive too.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's a question with no "right" answers. There are many practical techniques concerning combat, but the most important of it all, is the pilot's judgement.

I can only guess, but have no definitive idea on just how you are managing your Spitfire.

Another reason why I can't just lay it down on what to do, is because I have no idea just what kind of defensive situation you are in.

If the enemy landing behind your six, is a result of series of tight maneuvering contests, then its usually impossible to shake him for quite a long time.

Both you and the enemy, as a result of the previous harsh maneuvering, lost immense amount of speed and altitude. And, when the enemy lands behind you in that situation, it's literally a knock-out blow, the coup-de-grace.

You may be in a better maneuvering plane, but the speeds are too low to make any difference. And if that is what's happening to you, there's no advice but to say, 'don't fall under that situation in the first place.' The enemy "saddled-up" behind you, and in this rodeo, it's usually the bulls that lose, not the cowboys.

If, you are in the defensive situation where you spot an enemy plane closing in from behind, then you can out-turn the 109 easily if you have a keen eye on him. Don't just immediately start pulling hard turns. Start turning, but keep a watchful eye on him.

If you see him pulling a lead turn, on you, try variety of different turns - ie) pitching the nose up or down a little bit to change the turn path(usually down works better), or you could try a barrel roll reversal, or scissor your way out.

If you see the enemy following you in a lag-pursuit, then roll the other way and turn into him. It will usually force him into a scissors where you would gain the edge, or make him break off and extend away.

The point is this; there's no definite way of turning planes. It's a case-by-case scenario all the time.

It would help immensely, if we get to see a track of you fighting in the situation you described - other wise, it's hard to say for sure just what you should do.

ps) or, if you're interested, I'll send you a track out-turning a Bf109F-4 within two circles, and how a Bf109F-4(at least, in the case of human players) manages to stay behind a SpitV.

[This message was edited by Kweassa1 on Sun March 07 2004 at 12:56 AM.]

BlackHawkLeader
03-07-2004, 01:38 AM
Ya get the feeling people used to turn fighting are going to try it in the Spit for sure.
They are already so used to turn fighting they will no doubt forget that it is the Zeros strong point.
So they will try boom and Zoom and get nailed by a 109 in the same DF server. lol.

pourshot
03-07-2004, 05:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BlackHawkLeader:
Ya get the feeling people used to turn fighting are going to try it in the Spit for sure.
They are already so used to turn fighting they will no doubt forget that it is the Zeros strong point.
So they will try boom and Zoom and get nailed by a 109 in the same DF server. lol.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Why do you think people will get there tactics backwards,I meen why would you turn against the zero then try B&Z when fighting 109's. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

That's a poor effort if you are trying to make the spit out to be useless. I'am sure you can do better than that if you put some thought into it. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

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