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View Full Version : Oleg, AI Kill-Stealing needs to be reduced....



SeaFireLIV
03-24-2004, 05:19 AM
AEP`s great, really enjoying it, the AI IS better, but due to the new DM`s there`s a greater increase in AI stealing Player Pilot`s kills. We don`t mind the odd kill stealing, but it`s nearly every plane now.
I`ve tried , `Break` and `rejoin` which works, but not if you have other flights with you. It does get somewhat frustrating after a while.

Perhaps have the AI ignore aircraft that you`ve damaged unless you specifically ask for `Help`? (This is really an offline Campaign problem).

Anyway, keep on improving. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

SeaFireLIV...

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v31/SeaFireLIV/Dark.jpg

`The whole of this unfortunate business has been the result of pride and prejudice....`

SeaFireLIV
03-24-2004, 05:19 AM
AEP`s great, really enjoying it, the AI IS better, but due to the new DM`s there`s a greater increase in AI stealing Player Pilot`s kills. We don`t mind the odd kill stealing, but it`s nearly every plane now.
I`ve tried , `Break` and `rejoin` which works, but not if you have other flights with you. It does get somewhat frustrating after a while.

Perhaps have the AI ignore aircraft that you`ve damaged unless you specifically ask for `Help`? (This is really an offline Campaign problem).

Anyway, keep on improving. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

SeaFireLIV...

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v31/SeaFireLIV/Dark.jpg

`The whole of this unfortunate business has been the result of pride and prejudice....`

GregSM
03-24-2004, 08:08 AM
Hi Seafire,


I don't follow how AI "poaching" relates to damage modelling.

In campaign play especially, AI "poaching" results largely from the fact that the player side is likely to outnumber its opposition. (See the "ops" files in the DGen folder - which you're at liberty to adjust.) Range says something to this as well: flight leaders choose their targets in accordance to some sort of proximity criterion, which is finite and cannot account for even the gravest threats that may be looming beyond its parameters. So, it's possible (necessary) for the AI leaders of one side to collectively target the one enemy it can see from its limited perspective from the thousand enemies that you can see from your wonderfully expansive human perspective.

On the other hand, sometimes I think "artificial behaviour" is little more rigid and little less foreseeable than its human model; as credit for destroyed objects is ascribed simply to the object that damaged it last, is it to wonder that we don't we hear complaints like "I'm sick of how easy it is to poach AI kills"?

Personally, I don't welcome AI tinkering that's likely to compromise its aggression unnecessarily.


Cheers,


Greg

SeaFireLIV
03-24-2004, 09:25 AM
Well, sure, I don`t want the pretty good AI ruined. If Oleg can`t fix it, then fine, I`ll live with it.
As for the DM, well what I mean is that now with AEP, enemy planes don`t go down so easily, wings don`t break away as often, etc. They lose fuel, smoke, air worthiness gets worse, but the pilot still stays... So as a pilot you pepper an enemy plane seeit going down, smoking, you know its finished so you break off- then AI friendly comes and picks it off. Happens a lot now.

Another alternative: Perhaps the kills could be credited on who made the most shots into the plane?

Anyway it`s a request, not a demand. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I think the AI is better than ever...

michapma
03-24-2004, 09:44 AM
SeaFire, look at it as a way to get more experienced wingmates more quickly. This seriously makes a big difference for future missions. I remember getting upset when I lost squadron members with over 20, 30 or even 50 kills. You should be thrilled to assist them. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Their tendency to crash into the terrain and other aircraft when taxiing is much more disturbing... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/69giap/fileadmin/Image_Archive/badges/69giap_badge_chap.jpg (http://giap.webhop.info)

The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/) | Forgotten Skies (http://www.forgottenskies.com/)
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p1ngu666
03-24-2004, 10:07 AM
happens in coop's too.
u leave a stricken ai enemy plane to save ammo/help team mates whatever and some sneaky ai comes and takes your kill http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
even if there engine is dead, your wingmen still feel they need to spray himhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg

repco
03-24-2004, 10:22 AM
Yeah, it's very annoying when you set fire to an enemy's engine and break to find another target only to see your wingman desert your six for a bit of glory, I wish this could be fixed it really pi$$es me off http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

On the other hand, is it my imagination or do AI planes tend to quit the fight as soon as they're seriously damaged now, rather than fighting to the bitter end? Much better http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I hope the AI target selection improves with the patch.

GregSM
03-24-2004, 10:22 AM
Hi Seafire,


"As for the DM, well what I mean is that now with AEP, enemy planes don`t go down so easily, wings don`t break away as often, etc. They lose fuel, smoke, air worthiness gets worse, but the pilot still stays... So as a pilot you pepper an enemy plane seeit going down, smoking, you know its finished so you break off- then AI friendly comes and picks it off. Happens a lot now."

Good point, which may very well be true. However, I don't perceive the same general revision to damage modelling.

"Another alternative: Perhaps the kills could be credited on who made the most shots into the plane?"

This is a great solution but I wonder if it could be implemented, especially at this stage.

And I agree with you that the AI is now very good.


Cheers,


Greg

Luftcaca
03-24-2004, 10:52 AM
Seafire

you KNOW theres already a thread about possible improvements about the AI

why starting another one???

oh and btw I agree with you on that one http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.ifrance.com/boussourir/luftcaca.jpg

Formerly ''known'' as Gunther Aeroburst

LEXX_Luthor
03-24-2004, 11:43 AM
Wow, this Kill Stealing even has Bearcat upset in the other thread, and that I've never seen before.

I let the wingmen have the targets they want if I can't control them. It is the kills that your side make and not yourself that is important in real life WAR, and should be in the campaigns too. Anyway, letting my wingmen have my target (which actually rarely happens for me) lets me cover THEM or look for another good target. Just a thought. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Still...there must be a way of the program looking at each plane (not many) and count how many are targeting the same enemy, and break off the targeting by all but one or two of them. As there are so few planes in FB missions, this will not take much time looking at the data arrays or however the planes' AI actions are stored...or is this JAVA which I know nothing about.

At times I see "kill stealing" being conducted on me by members of another friendly flight, and this may not be kill stealing at all--just me ("ace" lexx) Whining. Also, I am reminded of that story the P~38 pilot told of ~6 Fw190s on his tail and he climbed and turned and the Fw all tried kicking rudder to stop engine torque but at the low speed al the Fw fell out into stall behind the P~38 fella. That must have been an amazing thing to see.

__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack

"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

SeaFireLIV
03-24-2004, 11:49 AM
Well, it`s just a suggestion, guys. And Bearcat99 did make a similar point. I`m really just backing him up. The AI`s still great, I just wanted to give Oleg an idea of how we`re finding the AI in general, it`s GOOd as well as Bad points. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif But Oleg shouldn`t worry bout it if he has more important matters.

GregSM
03-24-2004, 03:56 PM
Hi,


"Yeah, it's very annoying when you set fire to an enemy's engine and break to find another target only to see your wingman desert your six for a bit of glory, I wish this could be fixed it really pi$$es me off"

It's easy to verify that this simply doesn't happen, or not in the way it's typically narrated. Set up a quick mission involving two opposing pairs of AI planes and observe the behaviour of either of the wingman from an external perspective. Neither will fire his guns unless his leader is somehow threatened. Even if he is himself threatened, the wingman will typically (at times fatally) adopt a passive defensive posture, and will rejoin his leader as soon as he's able. During this time he will forego opportunities to launch his own attack. Human wingmen behave exactly the same. That being said, circumstances considered "threatening" by wingman AI can be problematic. For instance, when you and your AI wingman are attacking a lone bomber, your wingman will sometimes consider you threatened should the bomber lob a few rounds at you from some hopelessly withdrawn remove. He will then attack the bomber until you tell him to rejoin.

If to some extent the matter is one of "mere" semantics, properly AI wingmen cannot "desert your six" to seek "bits of glory"!


Cheers,


Greg

Januss
03-24-2004, 09:00 PM
Yes the AI has improved , but there is still a couple of things that can be improved :
when you set AI in "veteran" or "ace" the FM is sometimes ignoring gravity (especially when you are very close behind an AI turning left and right at very low speed ), or sometimes the AI climbs like a rocket to follow you or for example in a dive with a yak9 , they go beyond 700 km/h which is impossible for a human)
ok i know this is due to the simplified FM of the AI , but it will be cool if this could be fixed .
another thing to improve : it would be nice if the AI could give us their position when they ask for help ( like A5 , going 180 at 2000 meters)
Anyway , Oleg did an incredible work with FB and made my childhood dreams come true , so congratulations to 1:C Maddox , it is the best simulation ever made , go on improving and good luck !

LessThanZero
03-25-2004, 12:45 PM
AI wingmen are downright vicious. I was shot down twice in a row by greedy AI pilots trying to steal a fighter I was blasting.

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_191_1078712599.jpg

Luftcaca
03-25-2004, 01:49 PM
its odd nobody has mentionned yet that the AI flaps never jam.

So never ever remove the auto-pilot when its diving, cuz the first thing you'll see is FLAPS JAMMED.

http://www.ifrance.com/boussourir/luftcaca.jpg

Formerly ''known'' as Gunther Aeroburst

PzKpfw
03-25-2004, 02:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Luftcaca:
its odd nobody has mentionned yet that the AI flaps never jam.

So never ever remove the auto-pilot when its diving, cuz the first thing you'll see is FLAPS JAMMED.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Good point Luft, I have noticed that repeatedly in the Fw 190. I have had flap jams w/o knowing the flaps were down, when takeing over from AP.

At least in the 109 you know the flaps are down cause of the beep sound and can pull em up before jam most of the times.

Regards, John Waters

---------
Notice: Spelling mistakes left in for people who need to correct others to make their life fulfilled.

------
"We've got the finest tanks in the world. We just love to see the German Royal Tiger come up on the field".

Lt.Gen. George S. Patton, Jr. Febuary 1945.

PzKpfw
03-25-2004, 02:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LessThanZero:
AI wingmen are downright vicious. I was shot down twice in a row by greedy AI pilots trying to steal a fighter I was blasting.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Last night I was chaseing my second kill (Mig 3) in my II./JG52 Kuban 1942 G-2 camp I fired a short burst that took his wing off (beautiful kill) and was hit by another G-2 that disabled my engine, that was blasting away at my crippled spinning kill. I glided in and belly landed but it ruined a good streak as in 2 short bursts I had 2 kills http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

In another G-2 mission I had just killed a P-40 when another 109 hit me with his plane, while trying to pass over and infront killing my engine, he kept flying I crash landed yet again http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif, their gonna start calling my pilot Quax http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.


Regards, John Waters

---------
Notice: Spelling mistakes left in for people who need to correct others to make their life fulfilled.

------
"We've got the finest tanks in the world. We just love to see the German Royal Tiger come up on the field".

Lt.Gen. George S. Patton, Jr. Febuary 1945.

Luftcaca
03-25-2004, 02:14 PM
that kind of stuff happens often http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

since FB 1.0 the friendly AI is more dangerous than AI ennemy fighters...I cant believe Oleg just ignores these issues...

http://www.ifrance.com/boussourir/luftcaca.jpg

Formerly ''known'' as Gunther Aeroburst

SeaFireLIV
03-25-2004, 03:44 PM
Excuse me, I didn`t start this post so you, Luftcaca and Pzkpfw, could hijack it and turn it into a whine to bash Oleg with. I said before the AI`s real good and Oleg need not worry about it if he`s too busy, which he probably is. Stay on your other thread where you had your own AI whine.

PzKpfw
03-25-2004, 04:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
Excuse me, I didn`t start this post so you, Luftcaca and Pzkpfw, could hijack it and turn it into a whine to bash Oleg with. I said before the AI`s real good and Oleg need not worry about it if he`s too busy, which he probably is. Stay on your other thread where you had your own AI whine.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif


Excuse me, hijack a thread?http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif I thought this was a public discussion board?, did I miss the post where only posters approved by you, to post were aloud to post to your threads?, or where you were given moderator status?.


As for bashing Oleg your http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif Seafire, I am not bashing Oleg etc. what is up with you anyway, why does any post that does not agree with your opinion, turn into Oleg bashing? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif By your own attitude here your very post starting this topic is a whine & Oleg bashing, because it puts the AI in negative light.

I merely commented on a few incidents with the AI, which were AI attempts to Steal kills, & suddenly I'm off topic & whineing etc.

You dont want to read posts you percieve as 'whine' then dont read them, lifes that simple.

Also I don't give a rats a$$ that you think Ie, I said before the AI`s real good and Oleg need not worry about it if he`s too busy. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

This to me says You have already told us how we are to think, the AI is good, and thats it, end of discussion!!!. No one on this board any longer needs to discuss the AI, as you have passed omnipotent judgement. Who were you again BTW; that speaks for the whole IL-2 community, on AI issues http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif. I must have missed your coronation as well. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/34.gif

As I told you in the other thread opinion's are like a$$holes everyone has one, why you feel yours is better qualified to speak or judge the AI, then anyone elses, or the last word on the AI
is beyond me.

Either way, I'll post when & where I want to......http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif Till a moderator says otherwise......

Regards, John Waters

---------
Notice: Spelling mistakes left in for people who need to correct others to make their life fulfilled.

------
"We've got the finest tanks in the world. We just love to see the German Royal Tiger come up on the field".

Lt.Gen. George S. Patton, Jr. Febuary 1945.

[This message was edited by PzKpfw on Thu March 25 2004 at 03:55 PM.]

crazyivan1970
03-25-2004, 04:52 PM
Easy easy folks http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

As far as AI goes, i meantioned it many time. Veteran AI is the pleasure to fly with/against, check it out...anything besides that level kinda odd, indeed.

V!
Regards,

http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/smokin.gif

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

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Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

Capt._Tenneal
03-25-2004, 07:40 PM
Remember these from the patch 1.22 Readme :

Changes and fixes

- Fixed an error with B-17G that made it impossible to finish a mission sometimes.
- Fixed an issue when a plane set ablaze was not counted as a 'kill'.
- Using autopilot will not reset trim settings.
- Tuned non-adjustable trim tabs positions for aircraft so equipped (e.g. I-16 / I-153).
- Replaced Ju-88 engines with the corresponding model with correct altitude performance chart.
- Improved sea planes handling while landing and on water.
- Improved BI-1 landing behavior.
- Replaced P-40M supercharger with the corresponding one stage model.
- Tuned more precise P-40E at altitude 4.500 meters.

Item # 2 above seems to have addressed planes set ablaze counting as a 'kill', presumably stopping AI wingmen from going after it any further. Did this disappear with AEP ? Maybe if they reinstated this fix, kill stealing should happen less often.

Athosd
03-26-2004, 01:01 AM
I'm sure this was raised long ago with IL2 - but a system that acknowledges partial kill credits might help.
I don't have a problem with AI pilots pursuing already KO'd aircraft - if they aren't obviously beyond hope (eg fireball) - it happened enough IRL.
However in such a case they shouldn't get the whole credit. Just as a player shouldn't get full credit for downing a plane already crippled by an AI pilot.

Cheers

Athos

p1ngu666
03-26-2004, 10:05 AM
its when they go after a deffinatly dead aircraft its a pain :\
one uve shot down, dead engine/fire etc

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg

Gunner_361st
03-26-2004, 10:28 AM
I haven't seen it yet, but it would be hilarious if the rookie AI were programmed to shoot at planes whose pilot had already bailed out.

I see real players do it often enough. Hehehehe http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Captain Gunner of the 361st

http://home.comcast.net/~smconlon/wsb/media/245357/site1039.jpg

Luftcaca
03-26-2004, 12:43 PM
"Excuse me, I didn`t start this post so you, Luftcaca and Pzkpfw, could hijack it and turn it into a whine to bash Oleg with. I said before the AI`s real good and Oleg need not worry about it if he`s too busy, which he probably is. Stay on your other thread where you had your own AI whine."

Excuse me?
Are you politely trying to tell us to sod off???

Im not trying to start a Oleg's bashing game, he doesnt deserve that at all, and unlike many around here, I dont think he is biased or something.

I just wish I could understand why those issues have not been treated yet, maybe cuz the main focus was on online gaming and not offline campaigns and stuff like that, and since Oleg has been online a few times lately. (last weeks at least) I thought it would be great to finally draw his attention on the AI so he could tell us the score about that

http://www.ifrance.com/boussourir/luftcaca.jpg

Formerly ''known'' as Gunther Aeroburst

[This message was edited by Luftcaca on Fri March 26 2004 at 12:26 PM.]