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zugfuhrer
03-17-2004, 03:17 AM
At the altitude of 1000m and a certaian speed,
the 4-engine bomber Pe-8 and B-17 and the all 2-engine planes as the DC3, 2engine-bombers and fighters can outturn almost all of the FW190 family.

The Pe-8 has almost the same optimal turnrate as the FW190-A4.
Is this a bug?

zugfuhrer
03-17-2004, 03:17 AM
At the altitude of 1000m and a certaian speed,
the 4-engine bomber Pe-8 and B-17 and the all 2-engine planes as the DC3, 2engine-bombers and fighters can outturn almost all of the FW190 family.

The Pe-8 has almost the same optimal turnrate as the FW190-A4.
Is this a bug?

Kwiatos
03-17-2004, 03:46 AM
Yea FM bombers are poor. He111, B-17 could fly like a fighters make acrobatic - loop, roll etc. And people want more bombers http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

blabla0001
03-17-2004, 03:58 AM
You know what's funny to watch?

Select 3 flights of B17 (Or any other large bomber against 4 flights of fighters.

Then tell the bombers to engage the fighters.

Watch what happens next. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

VVS-Manuc
03-17-2004, 04:31 AM
Oleg would answer: "No bug here"

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

609IAP_Recon
03-17-2004, 05:10 AM
"And people want more bombers"

This has nothing to do with wanting bombers!

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rbstr44
03-17-2004, 05:14 AM
[EDIT: http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif]

Displacement through a Slab of Glass
http://sol.sci.uop.edu/~jfalward/refraction/displacementcolorthreebeams.jpg
Entering and exiting rays are displaced
from each other, but parallel.
Refraction of Light (http://sol.sci.uop.edu/~jfalward/refraction/refraction.html)

[This message was edited by rbstr44 on Wed March 17 2004 at 05:46 PM.]

PikeBishop
03-17-2004, 06:37 AM
Just a bit of clarification here.......
An aircrafts ability to turn is a combination of thrust drag and lift.
This all boils down to sustained stall speeds.

To calculate the Stall speed: Square root of WEIGHT (lbs) over WING AREA (square feet) X air density ratio Xlift Coeficient for the wing.
The only 2 that really matter here are weight and wing area as the others do not vary much.
Now, a lower stall speed means you can turn tighter. Many bombers have a low stall speed because they have a large wing area so it follows that they should (in the unloaded condition) quite possibly turn tighter. What stops them is that it cannot be sustained as the drag is so high and they don't have the power to sustain it so as the speed drops off they either lose height, keep the speed and maintain the turn or stay level and slacken the turn......if not they will stall and spin.
So theoretically they could out-turn momentarily but only for a short time eg half a turn or something unless they dive to overcome the drag.

Hope this helps to explain.

regards,
SLP.

Kwiatos
03-17-2004, 07:51 AM
My opinion is still the same:

LESS PLANES BUT MORE REALIZM !!!

zugfuhrer
03-17-2004, 08:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PikeBishop:
Just a bit of clarification here.......
An aircrafts ability to turn is a combination of thrust drag and lift.
This all boils down to sustained stall speeds.

To calculate the Stall speed: Square root of WEIGHT (lbs) over WING AREA (square feet) X air density ratio Xlift Coeficient for the wing.
The only 2 that really matter here are weight and wing area as the others do not vary much.
Now, a lower stall speed means you can turn tighter. Many bombers have a low stall speed because they have a large wing area so it follows that they should (in the unloaded condition) quite possibly turn tighter. What stops them is that it cannot be sustained as the drag is so high and they don't have the power to sustain it so as the speed drops off they either lose height, keep the speed and maintain the turn or stay level and slacken the turn......if not they will stall and spin.
So theoretically they could out-turn momentarily but only for a short time eg half a turn or something unless they dive to overcome the drag.

Hope this helps to explain.

regards,
SLP.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you take a look at the Il-2 compare you see that Fw and the Pe-8 has similar max turnrate.
Thats very good for a heavy bomber.

faustnik
03-17-2004, 10:12 AM
The best thing about the 190 is that it can't turn. Keeps you out of trouble.

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crazyivan1970
03-17-2004, 10:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by zugfuhrer:
At the altitude of 1000m and a certaian speed,
the 4-engine bomber Pe-8 and B-17 and the all 2-engine planes as the DC3, 2engine-bombers and fighters can outturn almost all of the FW190 family.

The Pe-8 has almost the same optimal turnrate as the FW190-A4.
Is this a bug?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Zug, you keep mentioning IL-2 compare... but from human point of view... if "Pe-8 and B-17 and the all 2-engine planes as the DC3, 2engine-bombers and fighters " it`s a pilot really...

V!
Regards,

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Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

WWMaxGunz
03-17-2004, 10:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PikeBishop:
Just a bit of clarification here.......
An aircrafts ability to turn is a combination of thrust drag and lift.
This all boils down to sustained stall speeds.

To calculate the Stall speed: Square root of WEIGHT (lbs) over WING AREA (square feet) X air density ratio Xlift Coeficient for the wing.
The only 2 that really matter here are weight and wing area as the others do not vary much.
Now, a lower stall speed means you can turn tighter. Many bombers have a low stall speed because they have a large wing area so it follows that they should (in the unloaded condition) quite possibly turn tighter. What stops them is that it cannot be sustained as the drag is so high and they don't have the power to sustain it so as the speed drops off they either lose height, keep the speed and maintain the turn or stay level and slacken the turn......if not they will stall and spin.
So theoretically they could out-turn momentarily but only for a short time eg half a turn or something unless they dive to overcome the drag.

Hope this helps to explain.

regards,
SLP.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


All that and relative speed. If the FW is going faster then it should be able to pull one hard angle, still not tires on asphalt type hard, depending on how fast it is going and may well be forced to swing wide of a slow moving bomber turning hard.

Bombers can fly sluggish but not terribly when loaded full of bombs, fuel, crew and ammo. Take away a good fraction of that weight and they should turn decently on need. If they get modelled sluggish when not loaded down, how will they climb let alone turn when loaded?

Lastly... these are AI planes with AI FM's and Ai pilots.


Neal

ucanfly
03-17-2004, 10:47 AM
It's funny that the first thing I thought when I turned in the FW190 in the game was: my God this thing turns worse than a heavy bomber! I guess that was by design after all!

Jippo01
03-17-2004, 11:13 AM
The bomber that turns best is Blenheim Mk. I, and that is able to do 20-40 second 360 turn. All bombers in FB should really be worse than that.

Bomber turn performance is not very accurate at the moment in FB. Especially bad is DB/Il-4 which was know as especially unmanouverable bomber.


On the other hand some bombers were able to perform rolls easy and also make loops.


-jippo

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zugfuhrer
03-17-2004, 02:39 PM
The outcome of a dogfight is a yin and yang relation between man and machine.
From a bad pilot in a bad plane to a good pilot in a good plane.
But it is more likely to win in a good plane.

WWMaxGunz
03-17-2004, 03:33 PM
Jimmy Dolittle launched loaded (not heavily but not empty) B-25's off a carrier deck. Not exactly turnrate but get one into a bank and I'm sure it'd come around okay. Problem is rolling up I think.

There is the thing about speeds. Also about how the FW is trying to turn with the bomber. If the FW is trying for a lead turn then he is trying for a tighter turn. To turn the same you have to lag. If you're both going slow then the lag angle is going to appear large. I've seen people make that mistake in claiming the other pilot didn't experience blackouts since they did. Turned out they were pulling lead and going faster into the climb to boot!

But yeah, the AI FM's are simplified and they can do the impossible.


Neal

zugfuhrer
03-17-2004, 03:53 PM
Can please explain the phenomena of lag to me.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
Jimmy Dolittle launched loaded (not heavily but not empty) B-25's off a carrier deck. Not exactly turnrate but get one into a bank and I'm sure it'd come around okay. Problem is rolling up I think.

There is the thing about speeds. Also about how the FW is trying to turn with the bomber. If the FW is trying for a lead turn then he is trying for a tighter turn. To turn the same you have to lag. If you're both going slow then the lag angle is going to appear large. I've seen people make that mistake in claiming the other pilot didn't experience blackouts since they did. Turned out they were pulling lead and going faster into the climb to boot!

But yeah, the AI FM's are simplified and they can do the impossible.


Neal<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

rbstr44
03-17-2004, 06:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>But yeah, the AI FM's are simplified and they can do the impossible.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly.

[This message was edited by rbstr44 on Wed March 17 2004 at 06:15 PM.]