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View Full Version : Suggestion for BOB: Priority of sky over ground



AWL_Frog
06-25-2004, 06:48 AM
Hi!

Just a thought about BOB: Even with the computers we will have when this comes out, ressources will still be limited, of course, compromises will still be necesary. So I would like to suggest that you focus on modelling of the sky more than on modelling of the ground.

The sky is the natural habitat of any airplane, and it's so much more than just a blank space over the ground! Imagine a dogfight in between two layers of clouds! Imagine a weather front in the distance, with a thunderstorm towering above it! Imagine taking off on a sunny day, flying through turbulence right over the ground, entering some thermals that carry you to altitude, and finally entering a high altitude jet stream!

To be honest, if I could have these I would be more than happy to accept a ground model that is more or less equal to what we now have.

What do you guys think?

Cheers,

Frog

AWL_Frog
06-25-2004, 06:48 AM
Hi!

Just a thought about BOB: Even with the computers we will have when this comes out, ressources will still be limited, of course, compromises will still be necesary. So I would like to suggest that you focus on modelling of the sky more than on modelling of the ground.

The sky is the natural habitat of any airplane, and it's so much more than just a blank space over the ground! Imagine a dogfight in between two layers of clouds! Imagine a weather front in the distance, with a thunderstorm towering above it! Imagine taking off on a sunny day, flying through turbulence right over the ground, entering some thermals that carry you to altitude, and finally entering a high altitude jet stream!

To be honest, if I could have these I would be more than happy to accept a ground model that is more or less equal to what we now have.

What do you guys think?

Cheers,

Frog

Snuffy_Hadden
06-25-2004, 06:54 AM
Stated this in another post but will state it here too.

I'd like to see 1C/Maddox Games/Etc. follow the lead of MSFS9.

Live weather updates from the internet every 15 minutes. If MS can do it ... I'm sure the developers at 1C/Maddox Games can do it too. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

*** "Proud Member of the White Star Protectorate Society!" ***

Philipscdrw
06-25-2004, 07:32 AM
I'm not sure that live weather updates is particularly worthwhile for BoB, but realistic changeing weather definitely is!

But England has had 100% aerial photographic survey and radar terrain mapping. It would be a shame not to use it to make England really accurate groundwise.

PhilipsCDRw

"Nietzsche is dead." - God.

View Cpt. Eric Brown's review of FB here (http://www.aerosociety.com/raes/news/SimReview.pdf) and discuss it here. (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=63110913&m=309109534&r=875101634#875101634)

Invader88
06-26-2004, 07:18 AM
but i hope that everything is very detailed

starfighter1
06-26-2004, 10:07 AM
hi,
indeed..but also a problem of product philosophie by Maddox to the PC-Combatsim game market.
I guess they will produce a 'compromise' to 'Igor and Jonny Joystick' and to some few hardcore gamers.
so we will get a middle class gameplay + options in grafic ..and some settings in FM-difficulty settings...

anyway: it will be a game anymore...

Steaky_361st
06-26-2004, 01:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AWL_Frog:
Hi!

Just a thought about BOB: Even with the computers we will have when this comes out, ressources will still be limited, of course, compromises will still be necesary. So I would like to suggest that you focus on modelling of the sky more than on modelling of the ground.

The sky is the natural habitat of any airplane, and it's so much more than just a blank space over the ground! Imagine a dogfight in between two layers of clouds! Imagine a weather front in the distance, with a thunderstorm towering above it! Imagine taking off on a sunny day, flying through turbulence right over the ground, entering some thermals that carry you to altitude, and finally entering a high altitude jet stream!

To be honest, if I could have these I would be more than happy to accept a ground model that is more or less equal to what we now have.

What do you guys think?

Cheers,

Frog<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I agree I would love that. One thing that separates IL2 FB from a "real" sim is that the weather is always monotonous across a whole map and you have just one selection, this OR that. I would love to see a this AND that selection. Basically I would love to have separate storm fronts and clear skies and sections with clouds.

Steaky

t0n.
06-26-2004, 01:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Live weather updates from the internet every 15 minutes. If MS can do it ... I'm sure the developers at 1C/Maddox Games can do it too.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OMW no! Have you been to the UK? The weather is bloody miserable half the time. I don't want to join a server and find that the field is socked in and we'll have to wait 3 weeks for the front to clear.

t0n

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v292/t0n2004/t0ns0108.jpg

bazzaah2
06-29-2004, 06:14 AM
more accurate weather would be good.

Maybe they can model weather patterns for Southern England/Channel from say April 1940 to October 1940 on a day by day basis for a campaign? i.e. reconstruct historical weather (sure records still exist), but that's maybe not a realistic expectation.

http://www.endlager.net/fis/pix/banners/fis_banner_05.gif

Crashing online as :FI:SpinyNorman

LEXX_Luthor
06-29-2004, 07:57 AM
The sky is the combat environment of air warfare.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
http://www.chitambo.com/clouds/cloudsimages/low/cb_cal_guam_oct00.jpg
This awesome tropical cloud looks like it's growing from the ocean. Well, it basically is, growing into incredible heights. In the dark portion to the left it's raining, to the right the weather is fair. This shows how quickly weather can change in the tropics.

http://www.chitambo.com/clouds/cloudsimages/low/towercu_saopaulo_mar02.jpg
A towering cumulus is actually just another calvus cloud. Here, however, I try to show what the real effect of a towering cumulus is. A cloud growing straight up with few or no clouds around it. Hence, it looks like a tower.


http://www.chitambo.com/clouds/cloudsimages/low/towercu_sunset_benin_jun95.jpg
This towering cumulus appeared one evening in the West African sky. The sun is just behind the cloud shortly before sunset.

-- This one is interesting, as it is photographed from an airplane about 150km away from the distant, and very large, cloud. For comparison, FB maps are only drawn to a distance of 20km.


http://www.chitambo.com/clouds/cloudsimages/low/cb_cap_moscow_russia_jul01.jpg
Two massive formations with very clear horizontal extensions in all directions.

-- These two very large clouds extend up to 12km altitude or higher. This is what BoB and 8th Air Force and their LW intercept opponents saw while looking for the enemy.


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/heart.gif browse here ---&gt; http://www.chitambo.com/clouds/cloudshtml/calvus.html#Anchorcal1


Imagine a Tank Sim with no buildings, no roads, no trees, and no ridges. Basically no Tank Sim. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif This would be like a flight sim with only the tiny Established Standard flight sim clouds of today.



__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack

"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

PE_Tigar
06-29-2004, 09:27 AM
I completely subscribe to this--more wether patterns! Dynamic weather! Even FS-style real-time updates stuff for online campaigns (let's face it, we can never fly online campaign that's equal to what really happened)-why not, that way it's dynamic and the CPU doesn't have to calculate all that. Terrain is, for almost all means and purposes, good enough.

Blutarski2004
06-29-2004, 10:23 AM
Hmmmm ..... realistic weather. I'd be happy if they were just able to deliver a realistic cloud environment.

BLUTARSKI

VW-IceFire
06-29-2004, 11:00 AM
I don't think a real time updated weather map is what we want. What I do think we want is the visual and accompanying effect of a more realistic weather system.

The sky can be quite beautiful at times with large clouds, rays of sunlight, and other types if visual effects that they should now be able to recreate with some level of expertise.

Oleg did mention that weather would be a serious thing to be looked at. Again, FB and IL2 have their roots in design a few years ago...

What they can do now should be more impressive. I'm hoping that it is...diving into a cloud bank to escape the guys on your six should be a worthy tactic. Right now, its only mildly possible.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/tmv-sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

Magister__Ludi
06-29-2004, 11:43 AM
I disagree. When the weather was bad (and a could overcast was enough during BoB) operations were virtually suspended.
I don't think Oleg's team should pay to much attention to clouds, although I do agree they look awesome.

Better terrain with realistic looking trees and roads, power lines, live stock, scattered villages and higher poly vehicles (with more realistic ground physics and damage model) will add much more the immersion of the game.

PE_Tigar
06-29-2004, 01:33 PM
*Some* operations were suspended--some were only performed when the weather was bad or at night, like anti-shipping in the Channel. And of course, when the bombers flew, fighters flew also http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. You would be surprised how little is needed to maintain VFR navigation (not to mention that most bombers had ample instrumental flying equipment even back then).

LEXX_Luthor
06-29-2004, 02:47 PM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Ignore Magister__Ludi, he/she does not know about real life Luftwaffe operations.

There was a Bf~109 pilot who took off under radar control in rainy overcast, climbed to ~10km bursting into bright sunshine, and sneaked up on a Mosquito skimming the overcast cloud tops (exactly as pictured below). The Mossie crew were NOT expecting any LW intercepts in such weather (nor would Ludi http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif )and so were not paying attention to what was behind them. The Bf sneaked up behind and Blasted the Mossie with one burst of cannon and the shreds floated down through the overcast (Mossie blew up). If the Mossie crew was paying attention, they could have gentlyl nosed down a little into the thick clouds just below them and easily escaped (Mossie was on its way home to England).


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
http://www.chitambo.com/clouds/cloudsimages/low/cb_cal_wusa_sep98.jpg
Beautiful 'cauliflower' formations on high altitude, around 10000 metres.

~ http://www.chitambo.com/clouds/cloudshtml/calvus.html#Anchorcal1
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack

"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

AWL_Spinner
06-29-2004, 02:49 PM
Absolutely. Both sides flew some missions in atrocious weather. I'd love to have this modelled.

Cheers, Spinner

http://www.alliedwingedlegion.com/members/signatures/spinner_sig.jpg

LEXX_Luthor
06-29-2004, 03:01 PM
Mee too.

You know, if they made real sized clouds for flight sims, all flight sim Devs would be Forced to finally program AI behavior with regard to clouds (an easy, even trivial task)....If you ever wondered why Established Standard flight sim clouds have always been the same size [and density] as the early DOS Flanker 1.0 low polygon clouds, this is the reason.

As a mere amatuer home programmer using FORTRAN, in a spacecraft combat sim I am working on for personal use, I easily program the hundreds of ships to check if enemy aircraft are behind or in front of nearby spherical planets/moons...I even check to see if the target craft is seen against the bright side or dark side of the planet/moon if needed. Clouds can be approximated by mathematical spheres and basic vector arithmetic can be used for AI programming of clouds awareness. For flight sims, the spherical approximation would be a huge increase over no AI cloud programming at all. For tall clouds, this could be approximated further by a stack of spheres.

__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack

"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

p1ngu666
06-29-2004, 03:15 PM
oi luthor
http://premium.uploadit.org/pingu666/goatse-deathstar.jpg

and

http://premium.uploadit.org/pingu666/kimbocard.jpg

kimbo is a girl off irc btw http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif
i have some more pics somewhere, tons actully http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
ill haveto find em for u luth0r,

pic taken from my garden btw http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg
&lt;123_GWood_JG123&gt; NO SPAM!

LEXX_Luthor
06-29-2004, 03:18 PM
LOL p1ngu can you make that pic a click link cos its too big for this thread. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

CORRECTION:: My spacecraft AI programming allows checking for enemy spacecraft in front of or behind moons, not "aircraft" lol. I am feeling flight sim Happy today.


__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack

"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

p1ngu666
06-29-2004, 03:29 PM
hehe http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
dont think someone knows what "goatse" is
google is all i can say http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg
&lt;123_GWood_JG123&gt; NO SPAM!

LEXX_Luthor
06-29-2004, 05:14 PM
*bump* to get to the next readable page. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif