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View Full Version : Some questions on Hurricane MK.I



Flakwalker
01-07-2004, 04:19 PM
I found the 7.7mm guns almost useless when firing at planes, the only way to make them usefull is shoot at the wings of the oponents trying to hit the fuel tanks and ignite them, otherwise will be a waste of cartdriges. So useless they was?

Another thing is on the Finnish campaign, inside the cockpit the FPS are too low, I tough that the problem was the mirror but I don´t have this problem in other maps. Also when the parking AI planes start the engines they get displaced to the right when I have not this problem.

Regards,

Flakwalker
01-07-2004, 04:19 PM
I found the 7.7mm guns almost useless when firing at planes, the only way to make them usefull is shoot at the wings of the oponents trying to hit the fuel tanks and ignite them, otherwise will be a waste of cartdriges. So useless they was?

Another thing is on the Finnish campaign, inside the cockpit the FPS are too low, I tough that the problem was the mirror but I don´t have this problem in other maps. Also when the parking AI planes start the engines they get displaced to the right when I have not this problem.

Regards,

Wetwilly87
01-07-2004, 04:38 PM
Flakwalker, I can get planes to smoke and even set fire, but it takes to much of my ammo to do so. So im disagreeing with you, but than im sorta agreeing with you. Battle of Britain pilots reportedly could rip the wings off of German planes.

http://www.kitreview.com/reviews/images/re2005bookreviewbg_1.jpg "The beautiful fighter of the war"

LeadSpitter_
01-07-2004, 05:07 PM
they are extremely weak in this game, like most small caliber weapons in fb and can run out of ammo trying to down a plane, lancaster gunners would get multiple kills with 4 303s saying they can down a 109 with a 2 second burst he would be on fire, any longer then 2 second bursts would get the barrels to hot and would cause jamming. 8 303s are almost useless against 109es stukas and he111s. so are 12 in the iib and usually result in a pilot kill to down a he11 but .150-200m you can get a engine of the he111 on fire from about 5 seconds of direct hits with .200 convergence. I would like to see this get fixed especially with the spitfires coming

I would like to see an online track of a mk1 shooting down 3 he111s, hurricanes went for bombers with thier stable gun platform and spits covered them in bob, seeing the ammount of bombers hurricanes shotdown and guncam footage shows how unaccurate they are in FB,

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[This message was edited by LeadSpitter_ on Wed January 07 2004 at 04:25 PM.]

SpinSpinSugar
01-08-2004, 04:40 AM
Too true. I'm looking forward to ExtremeOne's campaign but it's hard going up against bombers with .303s in FB. RAF pilots were amazed with the destructive powers of the Hispanos when they started arriving in squadrons but as you point out, the humble .303 brought down hundreds and hundreds of aircraft during the Battle of Britain. Eight gun fighters were not considered undergunned!

303won-the-war-whiners?

It'll be pretty interesting seeing how it's handled in BoB, thinking about it.

SSS

p1ngu666
01-08-2004, 07:52 AM
i cant remmber the rate of fire of the .303, but 8 or 12 your talking a massive ammount of lead.
the p11 guns are a complete joke too, either that or polish pilots had fb sniper ai http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

theknightsofni
01-08-2004, 08:48 AM
i think there should be less a of a spred of the rounds, as if the hurricane was a stable gun platform, surely they wouldnt spray all over the place as they do now. and a damage boost would be good too so its not impossible to down them

or could it be that the he111 is too tough?

p1ngu666
01-08-2004, 11:18 AM
there ineffective against anything

VW-IceFire
01-08-2004, 03:34 PM
The 109's are easy to down...virtually anything else is tought and it takes quite a bit of shooting to do. Still I can get 3-4 109's if need be.

Almost impossible online with lag however...

- IceFire
http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/spit-sig.jpg

warriorbear
01-08-2004, 04:52 PM
Gents picked up an RAF gunnery manuel from 1943. read it and applied the angles of deflection and I down them with good solid bursts from 70 meters using il2 Manager.

the .303 I believe is still weak but can be done if practiced.

Warriorbear

Arm_slinger
01-08-2004, 06:13 PM
I reckon its easier in real life due to the physics of it all. I can imagine a large burst of .303 hitting a fairly vital spar in a wing for example, this will put holes in it or dents, this may be enough then to weaken the structure due to the loss of rigidity and then finally make it snap or snap there and then when combined with high speed airflow and resistance along with the G's exerted on a structure. This is how i percive it, but in FB we dont have structural failiures as such

VW-IceFire
01-08-2004, 07:49 PM
For BoB no doubt...the .303's will have to be as effective as you can simulate them since we'll be using them alot. Especially if you're flying for the RAF.

- IceFire
http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/spit-sig.jpg

Waldo.Pepper
01-09-2004, 09:28 PM
THe Lancasters you are speaking about firing a 2 second burst and downing a plane are more than likely firing at a non maneouvering target that is at co speed doing a stern attack on a Lanc and night. Correct?

Well no wonder all it takes is two seconds. Set up a friendly me 109 and creep up to about 15 yards then blast it and I bet you will down it too!

The .303 are fine.

01-10-2004, 12:05 AM
Won't it be absolutely lovely to see the "P-47 durability is too weak" folk engage in this conversation with the "7.92mms are too weak folk"?

That's a dream match I'd love to see!

pourshot
01-10-2004, 03:26 AM
I think most of the problems we have with light MG's is becuase the damage model cant handle all the small weak hit's I just dont think it has enough small parts modeled to make it work.Maybe BoB will will be differant.

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Extreme_One
01-10-2004, 05:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SpinSpinSugar:
Too true. I'm looking forward to ExtremeOne's campaign but it's hard going up against bombers with .303s in FB. RAF pilots were amazed with the destructive powers of the Hispanos when they started arriving in squadrons but as you point out, the humble .303 brought down hundreds and hundreds of aircraft during the Battle of Britain. Eight gun fighters were not considered undergunned!

303won-the-war-whiners?

It'll be pretty interesting seeing how it's handled in BoB, thinking about it.

SSS<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Even taking into consideration FBs weak 303's the missions for our RAF campaign will DEFINATLEY be acheivable!
I'm sure newcomers to flying the Hurricane and Hurri experts alike will really enjoy the challenge, which may even be exacerbated by FBs weak 303s.

If the 303s are ever made stronger the campaign may even need a patch! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

S! Simon
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''

Download the USAAF campaign folder here (http://www.netwings.org/files/fb_missions/USAAF_campaign_folder_v1.21/USAAF_1_2.zip).

http://extremeone.4t.com/images/ex1_soon.jpg

SeaFireLIV
01-10-2004, 05:50 AM
To be honest, I really haven`t found the difficulty you`ve describe. Sure shooting wings off a HE111 I`ve not yet achieved, but I`ve done it routinely with Stukas and I`ve taken the wing off a JU88-A4 which is nearly as big.
All this on full real in Campaign.

I get the feeling you guys are not:

a. Getting close enough.
b. setting convergence right.
or
c: Not firing all guns while aiming for specific spots.

Maybe it`s just me. It does takes longer to shoot a plane down, but it depends WHERE you shoot. But a good one sec burst on a Stuka or JU88A4 at the wing root/section sheers off the wing definitely. WITHOUT using all my ammo.

Good stuff with the RAF Campaign, Extremme One. BTW (OT), I tried the Russian Accented English Voice File you mentioned once, but it does leave a bit to be desired in certain parts. Has this guy done a newer improved version? Has anyone else.

SeaFireLIV...
Slowly mutating into a Hurricane Ordnance Whiner...

http://img1.photobucket.com/albums/v31/SeaFireLIV/Harris.jpg

Harris the Hurri couldn`t understand why the Russian Controller wouldn`t let him have Rockets...

PESushi
01-10-2004, 06:05 AM
the Ju87B2 version we have in FB is more armored than the early version which was used during BoB

Bobsqueek
01-10-2004, 06:17 AM
Well, i took out a ME-109 in a coop with only a 2 second burst of mg fire


it took both wings off

-----------------------------

To lose one war is bad luck..to lose two is just plain careless

Extreme_One
01-10-2004, 06:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:

Good stuff with the RAF Campaign, Extremme One. BTW (OT), I tried the Russian Accented English Voice File you mentioned once, but it does leave a bit to be desired in certain parts. Has this guy done a newer improved version? Has anyone else.

SeaFireLIV...
Slowly mutating into a Hurricane Ordnance Whiner...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Some very good points about distance to target and convergtance settings.

RE: BBQ's voice-pack: I have edited it a little and it now works far better in FB.
There were still some Russian calls left in there. I simply "borrowed" those calls form another actors folder, while not perfect it's better.

I wonder if I should look into uploading it somewhere...?

S! Simon
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''

Download the USAAF campaign folder here (http://www.netwings.org/files/fb_missions/USAAF_campaign_folder_v1.21/USAAF_1_2.zip). *NEW* Updated for FB 1.21

http://extremeone.4t.com/images/ex1_soon.jpg

SeaFireLIV
01-10-2004, 08:48 AM
Actually, I`ve just read that in the Battle for France, when Hurricanes first met the Germans, it took 3 Hurricanes to down ONE He111! This was on the initial encounter, after that they improved. But doesn`t this reflect the fact that maybe it just needs a bit of time, experience to grow the skills necessary to take down a HE111 efficently?


To Extreme-One:
Well, I`d d/l your voice pack. It would be really great to hear Russian Accents in English. I may try doing my own by grabbing speech off other programs when I have the time. I remember that Apache Havoc (which i still have) does great Russian-english.

But i`m willing to hear yours, Extreme-One. (I would`ve written this earler, but was getting a lot of slowdown/lag).

SeaFireLIV...
Slowly mutating into a Hurricane Ordnance Whiner...

http://img1.photobucket.com/albums/v31/SeaFireLIV/ijolly.jpg

The I16 has Character! no matter what!

[This message was edited by SeaFireLIV on Sat January 10 2004 at 07:56 AM.]

VW-IceFire
01-10-2004, 09:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
Actually, I`ve just read that in the Battle for France, when Hurricanes first met the Germans, it took 3 Hurricanes to down ONE He111! This was on the initial encounter, after that they improved. But doesn`t this reflect the fact that maybe it just needs a bit of time, experience to grow the skills necessary to take down a HE111 efficently?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That was more likely due to doctrine of bomber interception. Hurricanes were meant to approach the bombers in a sort of attack formation coming in from the rear and using the spread of the .303's to target the bombers in the formation.

The guy who came up with said doctrine didn't really give credit to the armor plating on the aircraft and convergence settings were far too far out to be any good. This was quickly changed...so it was likely some connection to that doctrine that sort of "forced" Hurricanes to use numbers to down single bombers.

- IceFire
http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/spit-sig.jpg

CantabCommie
01-13-2004, 04:06 AM
I hate to rain on the 'beef-up the .303s parade' (because I also think they are too weak), but in France 1940 Hurricane pilots were also emptying their guns into single He-111s -- often without decisive results. Here are two after action reports from Cull & Landers TWELVE DAYS IN MAY:

'Took off with Red1 and overhauled and engaged two He-111s. Red1 attacked right hand one and I attacked one on the left. Opened fire at 200 yards and closed to 50 yards and was forced to break up and left. (Then) delivered a quarter attack and used remaining ammunition. When last seen e/a had undercarriage down and starboard engine stopped and smoke issue from it.'

'Opened fire at long range on the rearmost aircraft, and was rewarded with a return of tracer from the dorsal air gunner. Before I had finished my ammunition, the air gunner stopped firing, but whether this was a hit by me or he was reloading his gone I shall never know. All I could claim was "possibly damaged". On the way back I passed several more Heinkels making their way home, but could do nothing about them, being out of ammunition.'

There are many more accounts of attacks on Heinkels or Dorniers in much the same vein in the book. Multiple bomber kills in these reports are exteremely scarce. If you compare with battle reports of the 'average Joe' (and not the particularly good days of aces), much of the results of FB are pretty realistic (though try telling me that when an ME110 has flamed my Hurricane once again...).

Regards to all,
CantabCommie

Bremspropeller
01-13-2004, 04:30 AM
I think the later more commonly used tactic of frontal attacks onto bombers was the reason why the Hurricane's tallys againstthe bombers got more and more.



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BerkshireHunt
01-13-2004, 07:21 AM
I've been reading David Myhra's transcribed interviews with the Horton brothers (2 books). There is a lot of discussion about ballistics- the Hortons disagreed as to what weapons their jet powered flying wing should carry. (Basically Walter Horton, who had combat experience having flown an Emil during the BoB, insisted that without a fin and rudder the machine would be pretty useless- you would not be able to line up a shot. Secondly, because the machine was so fast, in his view, you would need to shoot from long range to increase the time available for lining up. This meant that only MK103s were suitable, not the planned MK108s).

However, more relevant to this topic are his recollections of combat during the BoB. Walter Horton was by his own account something of a crack shot. He remembers on one occasion having used up all of his 20mm ammunition and coming across a lone Hurricane. He opened fire at 600 metres range as the enemy machine began to turn and saw strikes in the cockpit canopy and engine. Immediately, the Hurricane burst into flames and fell away and he felt proud at having achieved such a long- range kill.
Note that this was with two small- calibre MG17s. Try doing that in FB- I'll bet you won't succeed.
Allowance must be made for the fact that the engagement took place during the BoB, a time when, as historian Bruce Robertson says, "most 109Es shot down and afterward examined were devoid of armour protection." Neither side had yet introduced effective armour- though in FB we have to assume that the aircraft are modelled as the Russians knew them in 1941 ie with substantial armour plate in vital areas. Nevertheless, to destroy a Hurricane at such range with two small machine guns speaks volumes about the real life hitting power of such weapons (any machine gun, in fact).
It follows that the effect of 8 would be correspondingly greater so I have to agree with those who say they are under- strength in the game. Let's hope it's addressed..

p1ngu666
01-13-2004, 07:32 AM
RAF had 400yard convergance, which think is a bit more than 400metres. one squadron went to 250yards and was downing FAR more planes

SpinSpinSugar
01-13-2004, 08:12 AM
Bremspropeller, I recall in Wellum's book "First Light" he describes one of his early encounters with Heinkels in a Spit Mk.1. I'll have to look this up later but from what I recall a frontal attack and 8 brownings caused the front of the Heinkel to disintegrate. With all that glass and exposed crewmen you can imagine this was an effective strategy. It's hard to recreate that sort of thing in FB.

Cheers,

SSS

Wetwilly87
01-18-2004, 08:03 PM
It just occured to me, that while playing the RAF campaign, that the Hurricane has no rear view mirror inside the cockpit, you see it on the external, but not in the internal, Oleg you need to fix this.

http://us.f2.yahoofs.com/bc/400b4836_14daf/bc/Hurricane.jpg?bfPz0CAB92hDYLSm

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MiloMorai
01-18-2004, 09:38 PM
Don't know accurate this is but a 3 second burst from a Spit I with 8 .303's was 10lb of lead. For the Me109E it was 13 lb.

other numbers:

Tempest - 40lb
Me262 - 96lb
F6F - 16lb

SpinSpinSugar
01-19-2004, 09:00 AM
RAF had 400yard convergance, which think is a bit more than 400metres. one squadron went to 250yards and was downing FAR more planes.

You are correct, p1ngu666. This was No.1 Squadron, according to Paul Richey's excellent book, "Fighter Pilot". This is a first hand account of No.1's campaign in France. Apparently (I'm paraphrasing here), Air Ministry officials were despatched to France to find out exactly why No.1 were downing every aircraft they met in combat whilst the squadrons based in England were succeeding only in driving them away.

The gun convergence had been set on the sly to 250 yards against Fighter Command doctrine of utilising the "Dowding spread" (Fighter Command was no longer in direct control of Fighter Squadrons once they were despatched to France). They had no trouble bringing down Heinkels and Dorniers after resetting their guns to increase the density of fire at typical ranges.

On this evidence, all squadrons based in England were to alter their tactics and reset their convergences, just in time for the Battle of Britain.

Other innovations No.1 were responsible for were seeminginly the introduction of armour behind the pilot in the Hurricane (again, the Air Ministry was against this until it was demonstrated to have no adverse handling effects), and the abandonment of the black/white underplane paintscheme (seen in the excellent 85 squadron skins for the RAF campaign) in favour of the duck-egg blue favoured by the Germans.

Aside from anything else, this book is an excellent historical account to go with Extreme_One and co.'s campaign. It's also teaching me a lot about a period of the war I knew little about. My Hurricane handling is improving as a result, too.

I have my convergence set to 200m on the Hurri now. Laced a Heinkel with .303 last night in the RAF campaign after climbing on full bore to reach it's altitude over France, killed practically all the crew at their stations. Very satisfying after reading about exactly the same thing.

Cheers, SSS

FourShades
01-19-2004, 08:11 PM
Our squad has just started playing the "Battle Over Britain" campaign with the Mk.I Huricane, and it is a lot of fun - a big "thank you" to the creators!

About the armament - I agree that it is NOT EASY to down a He-111: you just can't aim, shoot and wait for the "Aircraft Destroyed" message. We had trouble with the Arados, and then had real trouble against some high He-111 recons. But we got 2 Arados destroyed and 1 forced down, and we got 3 Heinkels. This is with 4 Hurricanes in the air.

I don't know if the .303s are under or over modelled vs reality. But what it does is challenge you to improve your shooting skills, which can only benefit you in the long term.

Have fun!
IV/JG7_4Shades