PDA

View Full Version : Nobushi Issues / Balance Suggestions



lDelicious
03-29-2017, 02:09 PM
This is a response to a certain individual (you know who you are). Hopefully you find this thread useful.

]The reasons are simple[/B]:

1) Predictable attacks: Due to the nature of using a Naginata, the vast majority of her attacks will involve a lunge. Add to the fact that changing guard with the Nobushi is quite clunky, it is easy to understand that where her guard is determines where her attack comes from. Even when you use the Sidewinder (with a delay), it is easy to differentiate this move from Cobra strike as one is immediate whilst one is delayed.

2) Attack Speed: The speed of her side attacks are not good, but not bad either. They are at a reasonable speed, but are very easy to parry. This also applies to her top light which comes out slower than her side attacks. Attacking from Hidden Stance also presents the same attack speed (in regards to the first light attack which counts as the second attack in a light chain).

As for Cobra Strike, the attack is also not slow BUT not fast either, and again (due to the nature of the Naginata), makes the attack very mediocre at high level play. The same applies the Sidewinder (which was described above). As for Vipers Retreat, it is understandable that this move is not lightning fast due to the bleed property.

3) Risk vs Reward: The big problem with the Nobushi is that the R.V.R element can be achieved with other characters that are much easier to play. Even light attacking with the Nobushi is extremely risky as most characters get a free side heavy which leaves the Nobushi with little over half HP. As mentioned above, adding to the fact that the Naginata requires most of the moves to involve a lunge, the Nobushi is simply too easy parry.

Even the Sidewinder can easily be parried easily when a player understands how the Nobushi works (which most players do at high level of play). At this point, a Nobushi is left to poke with Vipers retreat, but even this move is easily parried and forces Nobushi players to give up map control for little to no gain. As most of you know, the 1vs1 maps in this game are not the greatest (not enough space, too much un-level ground & etc), thus you can not zone for ever or you will be trapped in an un-favourable position on the map.

This then leads to HS, which can (in certain scenarios), be extremely powerful. The question is whether it warrants the risk. Yes, you can dodge heavy attacks and subsequently get two guaranteed lights (the last hit being a bleed), but is it consistent in actual combat? Only Nobushi mains will honestly be able to answer this question. I for one play with a controller, and as controller players know, the tolerance for HS is extremely small. Not to mention that once your opponent see's you using HS, they will simply turtle / feint bait until they can get a parry (which is also a symptom of the current meta).

-------

At the moment, the amount of effort required to effectively play the Nobushi just isn't worth the effort in comparison to other heroes. Yes, you can catch people off guard initially with the fancy HS and Sidewinder / Cobra Strike mix ups, but at high level play the vast majority of these attacks are easily parried. This is why you see so many Nobushi players turtle up after a while, because playing the parry / GB game is much more effective than continually be parried for close to half of your HP.

Some simple balance changes could include:

1) Increase the speed of HS light attacks: I suggest increasing the speed of the HS light attacks by 5 - 10ms. Whilst this might sound like a small increase, you need to look at the bigger picture. If the opposing player is used to parrying normal Nobushi light attacks (which is a very easy to do), the small ms difference could help alleviate the excessive parrying of the HS attacks which would make it more effective.

The reason why I wouldn't increase the speed of the heavy attacks is because they do considerable damage already.

2) Equalise attack speed for all normal light attacks: As many of you Nobushi mains know, the attack speed of the normal top light is slower than the side lights. By equalising the speed of all three attack directions, it will allow Nobushi players to increase their attack initiation from 2 to 3 directions (if they are using light attacks of course). This

3) ]Allow the Kick to be delayed by 5- 10ms more: This would allow the Nobushi to have a greater chance of having this attack actually hit. The reason I highlighted this point in red is because this move can also be performed unlocked. if the devs confirm that they intended to have certain moves be more effective unlocked, then this suggestion should be ignored.

4) Increase tolerance of HS for controller: Slightly increasing the zone of which HS is activated (on controller), would make the move more reliable in high octane fights. Right now, even if a Nobushi player can hit HS most of the time, there are certain time where the slightest margin of error leads to the Nobushi failing to activate the move and thus take damage.

5) Reconsider light attack punishment*: The reason this point is highlighted in red is because this point depends on what the next balance patch will look like. Nobushi mains know that having a light attack is severely punishing at the moment (considering how easy and predictable they are to parry). Perhaps you developers could look into this because to be frank, it is ridiculous and goes against the whole notion of Nobushis being "light, aggressive fighters" as stated in your marketing.

-----

Bugs that need addressing

1) Guard Stance needs to be looked at as it appears to have a delay. I have been informed that this issue is known to the developers, however, I wanted to re-post it here just to be sure.

2) The Viper Retreat bleed can be applied without hitting the opponent. If a Nobushi keeps activating this move when the bleed tick happens, the bleed will be re-applied even if the Nobushi has not damaged the opposing player.

3) When the Nobushi walks back, unlock, ZA's and then lock back on, it does a very buggy attack that is extremely hard to predict. It is clear that this is not working as intended, so this needs to be addressed; and no, it is NOT tech.

-----

If a Dev comes across this thread, then by all means take these ideas back to HQ. Thanks for reading!

lDelicious
03-29-2017, 04:52 PM
Any Dev's interested in the thread? Anyone?

We have long winded discussions about other heroes, why not about the Nobushi?

FredEx919
03-29-2017, 05:29 PM
Thanks for the Nobushi feedback / suggestions. We definitely see and read through all the threads posted here. We're looking at all the character balance now and should be able to share some details regarding upcoming changes pretty soon. I don't have much more at the moment, but the feedback is valuable to us and will be seen by the right people.

lDelicious
03-29-2017, 05:32 PM
Thanks for the Nobushi feedback / suggestions. We definitely see and read through all the threads posted here. We're looking at all the character balance now and should be able to share some details regarding upcoming changes pretty soon. I don't have much more at the moment, but the feedback is valuable to us and will be seen by the right people.

Okay, i just hope you guys are not going to neglect the Samurai because the Orochi, Kensai and Nobushi are all pretty bad at high level play.

I sincerely hope this next balance patch is good, thanks for the communication though!

GreenRanger XI
03-29-2017, 05:32 PM
She's not even my main, but I struggle to lose with her.

RunnerRunner22
03-29-2017, 05:38 PM
Great thread, good suggestions. Signed! My only addition would be that the kick should either be less punishable (By making the kick itself or the recovery faster) or cancelable into GB (which would give Nobushi a 50/50 like Warden has). The latter would not be unreasonable since Warden's bash would still be better. Right now, the shoulder bash is faster, much safer, has a longer range, costs much less stamina, can be delayed, can get hyper armor by delaying it, can be initiated from neutral AND canceled into GB.

kanuzira
03-29-2017, 05:45 PM
what we need is less attack damage in revenge mode. it is bullcrap she can revenge block you on attack and just do the zone attack and kill a full health lawbringer. it is rediculus to say at least. a little girl can kill a big axe wielding guy with 2 hits after his attack bounced of her head like she is some trampoline

SAVAGE_CABBAGE1
03-29-2017, 05:52 PM
Great thread, good suggestions. Signed! My only addition would be that the kick should either be less punishable (By making the kick itself or the recovery faster) or cancelable into GB (which would give Nobushi a 50/50 like Warden has). The latter would not be unreasonable since Warden's bash would still be better. Right now, the shoulder bash is faster, much safer, can be delayed, can be initiated from neutral AND canceled into GB.

While I agree that she may need a SLIGHT buff, I'm against giving her a 50/50 like the warden. Many consider that move the be too powerful, myself included.
Dodge? she gets a free uncounterable GB.
Stay there and take it? Bleed attack.
Ad correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that move have hyper armor? that would be pretty much uncounterable.

RunnerRunner22
03-29-2017, 06:14 PM
While I agree that she may need a SLIGHT buff, I'm against giving her a 50/50 like the warden. Many consider that move the be too powerful, myself included.
Dodge? she gets a free uncounterable GB.
Stay there and take it? Bleed attack.
Ad correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that move have hyper armor? that would be pretty much uncounterable.

I am not a fan of Warden's 50/50 myself. But as long as there are 50/50s in the game, Nobushi will be sub-par without one. Alternatively, the kick could at least be made cancelable, but not directly into GB.

Right now, the kick is way to easy to dodge. Any light attack performed after the kick is a cobra strike which always comes out top and thus can be easily parried.

I don't think kick has hyper armor btw.

SAVAGE_CABBAGE1
03-29-2017, 06:21 PM
I am not a fan of Warden's 50/50 myself. But as long as there are 50/50s in the game, Nobushi will be sub-par without one. Alternatively, the kick could at least be made cancelable, but not directly into GB.

I don't think kick has hyper armor btw.

Warden has the only 50/50 I believe. Many people are calling for a nerf and I agree, you don't want the Nobushi to also go down that road. ]
Making it cancelable would be a fair trade off.

RunnerRunner22
03-29-2017, 06:29 PM
I would consider Valkyries leg sweep being close to a 50/50. It comes out so fast that you basically have to dodge directly after her second light or bash. If she goes for a GB instead, you're screwed. Also, Shugoki's running attack is a 50/50.

RunnerRunner22
03-29-2017, 06:35 PM
what we need is less attack damage in revenge mode. it is bullcrap she can revenge block you on attack and just do the zone attack and kill a full health lawbringer. it is rediculus to say at least. a little girl can kill a big axe wielding guy with 2 hits after his attack bounced of her head like she is some trampoline

This seems to more of a gear balance issue. I am pretty sure that a revenge ZA without gear does not kill a full health LB.

SAVAGE_CABBAGE1
03-29-2017, 06:38 PM
I would consider Valkyries leg sweep being close to a 50/50. It comes out so fast that you basically have to dodge directly after her second light or bash. If she goes for a GB instead, you're screwed. Also, Shugoki's running attack is a 50/50.

Makes sense, however you can reaction dodge the leg sweep, but is admittedly difficult to do. That leads to a free GB afterwards.The Shugoki has to be sprinting for a good couple seconds to trigger his as well and can't really cancel into anything if dodged. The Nobushi 50/50 as you say it would be along the lines of the Warden, not these characters.

SAVAGE_CABBAGE1
03-29-2017, 06:40 PM
This seems to more of a gear balance issue. I am pretty sure that a revenge ZA without gear does not kill a full health LB.

If it doesn't kill, it will bring him to the last bar of health.

RunnerRunner22
03-29-2017, 06:46 PM
If it doesn't kill, it will bring him to the last bar of health.

That would indeed be ridiculous if true. I will try it out. However, the revenge system needs a complete rework anyways, this is not a Nobushi-specific issue in my opinion.

Dizzy4213
03-29-2017, 06:46 PM
I think it would be great if they brought back the Sidewinder into dash into kick mix-up. If I remember correctly it was stealth patched during the Open Beta. I know it was a bug, but taking it away really hurt Nobushi.

SAVAGE_CABBAGE1
03-29-2017, 06:52 PM
That would indeed be ridiculous if true. I will try it out. However, the revenge system needs a complete rework anyways, this is not a Nobushi-specific issue in my opinion.

It is truly rampant amongst the Nobushi and Warlord.
The Nobushi will wait until you attack, activate revenge and get a free ZA.
The Warlord will headbutt for a free heavy, into another headbutt, possibly 2 shotting a player.

RunnerRunner22
03-29-2017, 07:06 PM
It is truly rampant amongst the Nobushi and Warlord.
The Nobushi will wait until you attack, activate revenge and get a free ZA.
The Warlord will headbutt for a free heavy, into another headbutt, possibly 2 shotting a player.

How is this (talking about Nobushi, Warlord's headbutt knockdown is just insane) different than any other class? Warden gets a free top heavy, Berserker even gets two free heavies (I think?) etc. The revenge knock down with a subsequent free heavy is broken on any class.

Oupyz
03-29-2017, 07:14 PM
the main problem with Nobushi is her freaking hidden stance is very slow to activate , it kills the class totally and there's a bug with it , if you are switching guards you cannot activate hidden stance , it must work like warlord shield no matter what you're doing , once u press hidden stance it must go into hidden stance 70% of Nobushi problems fixed there

SAVAGE_CABBAGE1
03-29-2017, 07:16 PM
How is this (talking about Nobushi, Warlord's headbutt knockdown is just insane) different than any other class? Warden gets a free top heavy, Berserker even gets two free heavies (I think?) etc. The revenge knock down with a subsequent free heavy is broken on any class.

While it is too powerful all around, these to stand out as they are the only ones with the capability to one shot from the knock own alone, or at least from a chain in the Warlord's case.

RunnerRunner22
03-29-2017, 07:36 PM
While it is too powerful all around, these to stand out as they are the only ones with the capability to one shot from the knock own alone, or at least from a chain in the Warlord's case.

While I don't have any numbers, I seriously doubt that Nobushi's ZA does more damage than a Raider, Shugoki or Berserker heavy.

Haemmerst0rm
03-29-2017, 07:38 PM
Thanks for the Nobushi feedback / suggestions. We definitely see and read through all the threads posted here. We're looking at all the character balance now and should be able to share some details regarding upcoming changes pretty soon. I don't have much more at the moment, but the feedback is valuable to us and will be seen by the right people.

Make her zone attack one attack instead of two different attacks. Make it like warden zone attack. So it is less cheesing in dominion in revenge mode with body count feat.....

lDelicious
03-29-2017, 08:18 PM
I'm glad the thread has actually picked up now, keep the conversation going!

Thanks everyone!

CubanCreature
03-29-2017, 08:34 PM
Nobushi is one of the highest DPS characters in the game. She can punish people heavily for mistakes, and has access to the same feint and parry mechanics as every other class which can be used to lead into some very heavy damage.

Her attacks are not too slow, every character gets their lights parried at high level (aside from PK, which is broken) and therefore it is mandatory to learn to feint properly to open up your opponents defense.

Her kick is punishable, but really should not be used very often. On the whole, nobushi is actually harder to punish than many other characters, because most of her attacks are pretty safe aside from the kick. Take warden, for instance, which can be guardbroken for free by blocking his zone attack. All you have to do is keep up left guard, drop it once in a while to bait out the zone and switch it back, and keep an eye out for top light attacks which can be parried, even when you have to switch to top stance to parry it first. The valkyrie is even more punishable. She can be guardbroken for free off of ANY blocked dash attack, and if her sweep is dodged (not hard to do) then she sits there kneeling for a good week or so waiting to be punished in any way the opponent sees fit.

She also has pretty high reward on her attacks. She gets a lot of guaranteed hits off of guard break and a lot of other characters that have block-punishable attacks due to her range, and can throw pretty far into walls and whatnot.

I think she is in a good spot.

My only suggestion would be to maybe add another mix up for her or something, like the ability to feint the kick into a light attack or something. Or, you could change her ZA so that it can be immediately canceled into a guard break on a block like the valkyrie. She doesn't need much, shes in a good spot.

lDelicious
03-29-2017, 08:40 PM
Nobushi is one of the highest DPS characters in the game. She can punish people heavily for mistakes, and has access to the same feint and parry mechanics as every other class which can be used to lead into some very heavy damage.

Her attacks are not too slow, every character gets their lights parried at high level (aside from PK, which is broken) and therefore it is mandatory to learn to feint properly to open up your opponents defense.

Her kick is punishable, but really should not be used very often. On the whole, nobushi is actually harder to punish than many other characters, because most of her attacks are pretty safe aside from the kick. Take warden, for instance, which can be guardbroken for free by blocking his zone attack. All you have to do is keep up left guard, drop it once in a while to bait out the zone and switch it back, and keep an eye out for top light attacks which can be parried, even when you have to switch to top stance to parry it first. The valkyrie is even more punishable. She can be guardbroken for free off of ANY blocked dash attack, and if her sweep is dodged (not hard to do) then she sits there kneeling for a good week or so waiting to be punished in any way the opponent sees fit.

She also has pretty high reward on her attacks. She gets a lot of guaranteed hits off of guard break and a lot of other characters that have block-punishable attacks due to her range, and can throw pretty far into walls and whatnot.

I think she is in a good spot.

My only suggestion would be to maybe add another mix up for her or something, like the ability to feint the kick into a light attack or something.

All the posts you've made have been addressed and refuted in my post already...

And this is why (ideally), I wanted mainly Nobushi mains to give their opinions because a lot of you are clueless to how bad the Samurai are right now. Orochi, Kensai and Nobushi are all easily dealt with at high level of play, and based on your skill bracket (which I have looked up), I wouldn't expect you to understand the points I'm making.

I'm curious, what is your opinion on Orochi and Kensai?

SAVAGE_CABBAGE1
03-29-2017, 09:10 PM
All the posts you've made have been addressed and refuted in my post already...

And this is why (ideally), I wanted mainly Nobushi mains to give their opinions because a lot of you are clueless to how bad the Samurai are right now. Orochi, Kensai and Nobushi are all easily dealt with at high level of play, and based on your skill bracket (which I have looked up), I wouldn't expect you to understand the points I'm making.

I'm curious, what is your opinion on Orochi and Kensai?

The Nobushi doesn't have slow light attacks at all, however, the ease in which she is parried stems from how 2 dimensional she as a character is. She doesn't have the guard switch speed to be viable in higher tier play, and as a result, is parried very easily due to the predictability of the attacks.
If a guard switch speed buff doesn't work, she would need a complete rework. This is a problem with all slow guard change characters.

As for Kensei and Orochi,
the Kensei is in the same tier as LB and Raider, with high damage attacks that will never hit due to how slow they are.
Orochi is a solid average character, with high damage attacks and speed, but suffers from lack of ability to crack a defence.

corazondedelfin
03-29-2017, 09:11 PM
No way the nobushi needs a buff, no way. Its almost OP... and all of you spam zone attacks like *******s knowing its power.

SAVAGE_CABBAGE1
03-29-2017, 09:14 PM
While I don't have any numbers, I seriously doubt that Nobushi's ZA does more damage than a Raider, Shugoki or Berserker heavy.

If she hits her entire zone in revenge, I believe for some reason they count as two heavies. I will try to back up my claim if I can find some video evidence.

SAVAGE_CABBAGE1
03-29-2017, 09:16 PM
No way the nobushi needs a buff, no way. Its almost OP... and all of you spam zone attacks like *******s knowing its power.

She is a 2 dimensional character, learn her basic setup and, while I dislike being this guy, but is due: acquire skill

CubanCreature
03-29-2017, 11:36 PM
All the posts you've made have been addressed and refuted in my post already...

And this is why (ideally), I wanted mainly Nobushi mains to give their opinions because a lot of you are clueless to how bad the Samurai are right now. Orochi, Kensai and Nobushi are all easily dealt with at high level of play, and based on your skill bracket (which I have looked up), I wouldn't expect you to understand the points I'm making.

I'm curious, what is your opinion on Orochi and Kensai?

Kensei is a trash character that needs work, very limited moveset and everything is slow, almost worse than raider, raider's light attacks at least get through occasionally. Orochi is decent, but is in the same boat with most other characters in the game that do not have "out of the gate" unblockables in that he/she has trouble opening up enemies that have their defense on point. However, Orochi has a pretty speedy ZA that can help, and to my knowledge it is safe.

Wanting nothing but Nobushi mains to give an opinion is stupid. Would you also suggest then that Ubisoft only takes the advice of PK mains when considering balance adjustments for the PK? A diversity of opinion is obviously needed, from the viewpoint of fighting against and fighting as the Nobushi if you want any kind of reasonable conclusion.

Making that ad-hominem (or argument from authority, depending on how you look at it) doesn't help your case either. I am entirely capable of understanding the game mechanics and understanding the workings of high level play regardless of whether I am tournament-level or not. Regardless, I can hold my own and I am better than the majority of the playerbase, and I do have plenty of playtime under my belt. I wont stoop so low as to even pretend like I care about your skill bracket, because it honestly does not matter and is irrelevant to this discussion.

Helnekromancer
03-29-2017, 11:55 PM
Look at the Nobushi's kit, light attacks, bleeds, hidden stance and a kick all can be easily avoided if the opponent knows how a Nobushi work. And since she's the only zoning character once someone gets in her face there is little she can do, her kick can be dodged because it has a lot of stat up, Viper's retreat can be parried and Hidden Stance has start up it doesn't come out instantly and the fact that it isn't can get you killed and swift recoil but sometimes you don't want to create space between yourself because you want to hit back, and maps aren't cater for nobushi so you don't have a a lot of room to work with. Not to mention several classes can leaps 10feet at you with a strike and negate the fact that you tried to create space.

I'm having to use Sidewinder From and my zone attack a lot more in fights because everything else can easily be parried and if they can parry/ block my zone and sidewinder attack then I'm have to play defensive. The nobushi has a sorta an infinite combo where if she last 3 lights, she can viper retreat right after and if it lands she can do 3 more lights and keep going and going until her stamina is gone. But all it takes is one block to stop her momentum and it only works on lower skilled players.

Been playing Nobushi since the game came out and currently rep 16 with her and i'm not sure whether she needs a buff or not but just like the Kensei she is pretty fair compared to everyone else in her category and you need to play almost perfectly in order to win because everything you do can be easily punished and exploited.

Oupyz
03-30-2017, 12:04 AM
Nobushi is broken , no matter what everybody say , i'am top 1% on my Nobushi and i played some decent duels against people with 74-80% winrate , which i believe is high bracket and believe me they ****ing parry each light even out of hidden stance , she has very slow guardstance , at my level i'am really afraid to send a light attack 85% it will get parried and i will get punished hard

if they dont wanna buff her , fix hidden stance , and make it so parry Nobushi will give you no reward , it will be fair enough

she is pretty bad at high bracket believe me , one of the worst characters , of course at low level she might seem op , once people learn how to parry her , good luck opening their defence with the state of our hidden stance :)

The_B0G_
03-30-2017, 12:52 AM
I don't think Nobushi needs a buff at all. One poke and the bleed alone takes pretty much a bar of health, she's fast and has long range and bleed... not sure what else she needs, fighting her is extremely annoying when all she does is dodge and poke. Look at LB, he's slow, doesn't do much damage and his attacks regularly pass through people with no effect and he has no bleed, hard to say she needs a buff in my opinion.

Moondyne_MC
03-30-2017, 12:59 AM
As a Nobushi main I'd happily trade off some of our Way of the Shark damage for a slight speed increase on lights and guard change. All her lights are very easily blockable, and with kick having to come off a heavy or HS, it gives us no way to open up a decent blocker.

HS dead zone needs to be increased dramatically to make it viable in higher level play. The thing is absolutely AMAZING when it works, but it's a huge gamble.

Allowing swift recoil to go sideways might be interesting too.

lDelicious
03-30-2017, 01:26 AM
Kensei is a trash character that needs work, very limited moveset and everything is slow, almost worse than raider, raider's light attacks at least get through occasionally. Orochi is decent, but is in the same boat with most other characters in the game that do not have "out of the gate" unblockables in that he/she has trouble opening up enemies that have their defense on point. However, Orochi has a pretty speedy ZA that can help, and to my knowledge it is safe.

Wanting nothing but Nobushi mains to give an opinion is stupid. Would you also suggest then that Ubisoft only takes the advice of PK mains when considering balance adjustments for the PK? A diversity of opinion is obviously needed, from the viewpoint of fighting against and fighting as the Nobushi if you want any kind of reasonable conclusion.

Making that ad-hominem (or argument from authority, depending on how you look at it) doesn't help your case either. I am entirely capable of understanding the game mechanics and understanding the workings of high level play regardless of whether I am tournament-level or not. Regardless, I can hold my own and I am better than the majority of the playerbase, and I do have plenty of playtime under my belt. I wont stoop so low as to even pretend like I care about your skill bracket, because it honestly does not matter and is irrelevant to this discussion.

I never said that I ONLY want the opinion of Nobushi mains, I said I MAINLY wanted their opinions as they understand the character more than someone who has played her for 10 minutes don't you think?

Why is it that every time someone in the forum talks about balance, one of you trigger prone players comes along to de rail the thread? If you have nothing more to say about the Nobushi then take out your frustration somewhere else.

CaptainPwnet
03-30-2017, 02:04 AM
I think a lot of people that post about balance don't really understand the state of the game. As it is right now every character that isn't WL, PK, Conq, Warden, or Shugoki(conq and shug are a little more on the cheese side in why they are useable at high level play and could use buffs/reworks just to give them more options) is quite underpowered atm since they have no reliable way to crack defense without your opponent making mistakes. If your opponent is skilled and has solid defense not only will you struggle to deal any damage to them but you will actually get punished with easily parried lights or after easily dodged unblockables that grant free GBs or heavies. So in the end these attacks are just way to risky to use as the damage you would deal is usually about half or less than the damage you will take if your opponent knows how to react and defend/dodge/parry properly.

So Right now there are indeed some OP and abusable elements to the top tier characters but they don't need to be nerfed TOO much. What needs to happen is all the other characters need to be buffed to their level, or defensive mechanics need a serious rework in general. A good start would be reworking parries as free damage for playing defensively is very poor game design, along with rebalancing light attacks across the board to be faster and maybe even chain on block. This is just my opinion but If you haven't realized what I first said about the game then you should probably not comment on balance at all.

Also yes Nobush is quite bad atm, the same as every character that isn't the aforementioned 5 classes. Some characters do shine in other ways outside their own 1v1 prowess though. Valk and LB are great in team fights for disabling(although conq,WL, warden and shug are also decent/good at this lol). But there are characters that excel at nothing really. These are the likes of zerker, bushi, kensei, orochi, raider(he is semi good at disabling and environmental kills but not like the others).

CaptainPwnet
03-30-2017, 02:31 AM
I figured i'd post separately about nobushi specifically. Pretty much in prolonged summary:

Light attacks are too slow and predictable, easily parried for free heavies from your opponent. Way too risky to use in the current game state against skilled players as if you even manage to land 2 in a row(which will never happen against a decent player) you risk being parried 2 times. If you get parried you lose 1/3 of your health while your 2 lights would deal a single bar, not worth. They really need to change how guard stance switch works so that if you have your guard left and then throw a light attack right it comes out in that direction instantly. This should be universal for all characters so it works like throwing out a zone attack from any guard direction.

Hidden stance too unreliable and even if it's activation and dodge frame window was buffed it still isn;t a very useful ability. The only time it's useful is dodging unblockables and heavies. Any other time you will most likely be punished and hit before you can do anything out of hidden stance. Also in the case of heavies you are better off parrying anyways so it's usefulness is even further diminished. Not to mention many of the classes that you would want to dodge unblockables from interchange the unblockable with GB, like all the characters that can do Dash>unblockable(WL headbutt,warden shoulder bash or conq shield bash) and hidden stance is very vulnerable to GB which means you just lost 1/3 of your health. Not to mention it even has a fairly hefty stamina cost. Why would you use it when you can parry the attack or dodge the unblockable for no cost and it's also safer and will grant a more damaging punish with GB>top heavy compared to the 2 lights+bleed you would get off hidden stance that is so much more unreliable than parry/dash>GB?

Kick costs an ungodly amount of stamina considering it's about the worst unblockable shove in the game. If you try to do a raw kick in neutral(Hidden stance>kick) It costs you almost half stamina when others can simply dash>unblockable for very minimal stamina. The only time this is even remotely balanced is if you manage to kick a guy into a wall for a guaranteed top heavy. But if you aren't dodging nobu kicks then you aren't very good as it is so slow and has almost no tracking. You can even backdash it unlike WL headbutt.

Pretty much her whole game boils down to defensive play hoping your opponent gives you something to parry or something unsafe you can dodge and punish for a GB>top heavy which does do a lot of damage. But all her other tools just aren't very good.

Also to those complaining about her zone spam, in or out of revenge, block left you're welcome. Also if they don't cancel it before the second attack it's a very easy and free parry. Not to mention it isn't too difficult to parry the first hit of the zone either, it is not fast. Another tip when dealing with high gear score revenge, stop attacking them unless they are focused on one target. You won't deal enough damage to them compared to what they will do to you in 1 hit unless you have a good disabler with you. Just play passive and defend/react properly.

I'll also point out another very unbalanced aspect of modes that allow feats. The tier 2 thick blood passive severely nerfs so much of nobu's damage it's ridiculously unbalanced. Not really a huge issue just something to note.

CubanCreature
03-30-2017, 02:52 AM
Why is it that every time someone in the forum talks about balance, one of you trigger prone players comes along to de rail the thread? If you have nothing more to say about the Nobushi then take out your frustration somewhere else.

What the hell are you talking about? Everything I said was on topic, expect for the bits about other weeb characters which YOU specifically asked me how I felt about. YOU were the one that went off the topic of the Nobushi's current state.

My two cents that the Nobushi is in a good spot and doesn't need massive sweeping changes and monstrous buffs is on topic, whether you agree with it or not. If you have a problem with some of the specifics of what I have said, address those specifics and make counter points and I will concede if you show me that I am wrong.

Right now, you are just arguing like a democrat.

lDelicious
03-30-2017, 02:54 AM
Okay you've made your point so please vent somewhere else now.

RunnerRunner22
03-30-2017, 08:52 AM
she is pretty bad at high bracket believe me , one of the worst characters , of course at low level she might seem op , once people learn how to parry her , good luck opening their defence with the state of our hidden stance :)

As always, people's experiences differ dramatically depending on their skill bracket. I can see why someone who gets frequently destroyed by Nobushi at lower skill levels wouldn't want to see her buffed. My duel rating is 17-18, which is decent but far from competitive. Playing on console, my lights don't get parried most of the time. They get blocked most of the time, however. I have to put in work to get any hit. My kicks get dodged most of the time. So skill-wise, I think that right now I am at the sweet spot where Nobushi is kind of balanced, still viable but requires serious effort. However, her shortcomings really start to show, so I am aware that it will be an uphill battle from here on.

So ideally, a buff should not make Nobushi even more of a Noob stomper, but make her more viable at higher levels.

lDelicious
03-30-2017, 01:19 PM
Bumperino!

Herbstlicht
03-30-2017, 02:40 PM
Well, as a not so experienced Nobushi player i feel the following things are keeping me down a little:

- blockchange seems very slow
- i have problems using her dodge (is kensei and orochi dodge simply way superior?)
- i dislike the timeframe hidden stance cancels stamina recovery, feels very long
- i dislike activating hidden stance on controller, always doesn't work when you feel you need it most
- it feels hard to do gb reliably due to the low range of it and the overall long range you fight from (should i go for side heavy after parry?)

Anyway, i still like her. Nobushi, Kensei, Orochi - my favorite heroes right now (in this order).
The reason actually is pretty simple. I want to do some melee fighting, not headbashing-button-mashing, falling asleep while turtling or repeating the same moves with one slight variation until stamina runs out (vortex). Well, i guess i could like PK, but i hate playing against her and it often doesn't feel fair, so i would feel bad to play her :/

So whatever the devs are going to do to help Nobushi (and possibly other characters in need), i really really hope the core gameplay stays intact. I really don't want to start kick-spamming to victory for example.

RunnerRunner22
03-30-2017, 03:02 PM
@Herbstlicht

Yes, HS desperately needs improvement, especially with controllers. I seldomly use it for defense because I can't reliably activate it on point.

After a parry, normally you should go for a GB followed by a top heavy, which deals more damage than her side heavies. If you parried a heavy from a long range class, they won't be in GB range though.

And yes, her dodges are much worse than those of almost any class. I don't even try to dodge attacks other than the unblockables.

Edit: one addition concerning block change. Apparently, the speed of one single block change is the same for all classes. Repeated block changes in quick succession, however, are much slower for Nobushi (and some other classes). So you should avoid constantly changing your guard when you don't need to.

Herbstlicht
03-30-2017, 03:32 PM
@RunnerRunner22

Thanks for the info :-)
So the dodge really is somewhat inferior to other dodges, i knew it!

When it comes to blocking though, i guess i did kinda right then. I normally have my block up because it will change automatically due to cobra strike or sidewinder attacks. I give myself into the illusion that maybe my opponent might expect an attack from an upwards angle if i leave my guard there :3
Anyway, Kensei feels somewhat better with blocking and overall in the defensive department. But i got way more time into him, so thats possibly it.

Concerning Hidden Stance, i tried some combined training in advanced training where you learn cgb. Concentrating on cgb switching stances feinting attacks and trying to fit in a perfect hidden stance there without the need for stamina helped a little. But i can't still do it reliably.

RunnerRunner22
03-31-2017, 08:38 AM
When you manage to pull it off, dodging an attack or shove with HS and stabbing them in the face feels amazing tho. You can feel the confusion of your opponent through time and space :)

Herbstlicht
03-31-2017, 10:18 AM
Yes, pulling hidden stance dodges off feels very nice. But after some more practice, i decided for myself i need way more to use it for dodging :/
For now, the real advantage is it's startup property. Starting with the second chain means only one very swift light attack needed to land the second one. If you pull this off, your opponent often panics a little and falls for some wave dashing or other offensive moves. One of the downsides against turtles though, is that although you can dodge in hidden stance, the following guardbreak is very late. So honestly, against a strong turtling player .. is there anything? I could always kick of course, but they expect it and dodge it. Hidden stance dodge gb gets teched. And if the opponent is good even hidden stance swift attacks can be blocked or even parried. Hmm, it really is a hard life as Nobushi when you face stronger opponents. But guess i learned it was this way with Kensei already :3

VraguVrag
03-31-2017, 05:15 PM
...a little girl can kill a big axe wielding guy with 2 hits after his attack bounced of her head like she is some trampoline


Haha

Astrolite.
03-31-2017, 06:43 PM
Thanks for the Nobushi feedback / suggestions. We definitely see and read through all the threads posted here. We're looking at all the character balance now and should be able to share some details regarding upcoming changes pretty soon. I don't have much more at the moment, but the feedback is valuable to us and will be seen by the right people.

Thank you!

lDelicious
03-31-2017, 06:55 PM
Didn't see anything on the stream concerning Nobushi =l

I don't know, I'm starting to question if there's even a point to leaving feedback about her now. If they are basing their conclusions on win rates, then it's GG for the Nobushi & the Orochi. At least Kensai is getting something but yeah, not really impressed with the stream...

Nothing about the flicker bug, soft feints, GB feints, unlock tech...what more can I say....

Herbstlicht
03-31-2017, 09:15 PM
Well, Nobushi may not be the worst off right now. And the more I play her, the more only specific matchups really are bad. Take Valkyrie for example. I feel she has ever advantage on her side. Better opener / extremely fast gap closer. Very strong vortex that is incredibly hard to dodge for Nobushi. Swift attacks are superior to ours. Guard change is superior.
The Valkyrie being a hybrid as well, can be nicely compared here. Of course, both are different but i would not say the matchup feels fair.
Other matchups though are feeling way better. Likely all where our slow defence can't be abused as badly.
Nevertheless, the stream left me positive. Even if it would not be this patch, at least at some point we will get some adjustments if we really need them. Or so I do believe.

RunnerRunner22
04-01-2017, 09:43 AM
Didn't see anything on the stream concerning Nobushi =l

I don't know, I'm starting to question if there's even a point to leaving feedback about her now. If they are basing their conclusions on win rates, then it's GG for the Nobushi & the Orochi. At least Kensai is getting something but yeah, not really impressed with the stream...

Nothing about the flicker bug, soft feints, GB feints, unlock tech...what more can I say....

Well, at least Hidden Stance gets fixed. That's something, right?

lDelicious
04-01-2017, 11:32 AM
Well, at least Hidden Stance gets fixed. That's something, right?

It's something but most of got used to the slim activation zone already so it's not really such a substantial change...

I would of thought they would at least slightly increased the speed of her top light as well as her HS lights so that they aren't so easy to parry, but I guess not.

Herbstlicht
04-01-2017, 06:19 PM
It's something but most of got used to the slim activation zone already so it's not really such a substantial change...

I would of thought they would at least slightly increased the speed of her top light as well as her HS lights so that they aren't so easy to parry, but I guess not.

Well, with Hidden Stance improved, you have a way of opening a little bit less predictable what might already influence some matchups in a manner that is hard to forsee. Currently i rarely see any player reliably use Hidden Stance offensive, i never saw one use it for defence with success. Personally, i got lucky one or two times, but most of it, i got severly punished for trying to hidden stance dodge. With it activating at a whim, i can see it becoming very useful for all sorts of situations.

Besides, they are leaving some other Heros behind for now, not because they do not need help, but because they focused elsewhere first and some changes oughta be harder to implement then others.
So i will just stay positive and enjoy my new Nobushi main despite whatever is going to get thrown at me. Oh and maybe getting back to a little bit of Kensei after the buffs :)

RunnerRunner22
04-04-2017, 04:15 PM
In my experience, Nobushi struggles the most against Characters that move laterally a lot. Since Nobushi's light attacks are straight stabs that have almost no tracking, they are easily sidestepped. I am not only talking about dodges, but the standard strafing. I am under the impression that especially Viper's retreat often does not connect, although it looks like it should. Maybe an increased tracking of her lights would be a sensible buff? What do you think?

Herbstlicht
04-04-2017, 07:12 PM
In my experience, Nobushi struggles the most against Characters that move laterally a lot. Since Nobushi's light attacks are straight stabs that have almost no tracking, they are easily sidestepped. I am not only talking about dodges, but the standard strafing. I am under the impression that especially Viper's retreat often does not connect, although it looks like it should. Maybe an increased tracking of her lights would be a sensible buff? What do you think?

Ah yes, lateral movements are hard to deal with. Problem here: we tend to keep our enemy away from us. So even if we feint into gb, the gb normally is not going to connect. The side attack, though, is. Of course, every (!) attack of the Nobushi you manage to dodge is punishable easily if your class has side attacks.

In fact, if you are good at blocking/dodging, try doing nothing else but side attacks with keeping enough distance to be safe towards gb. Oh and if Nobushi try's to dodge close .. just gb yourself ^^

Anyway, it is not "all bad", meaning that if you are good with dodging/side attacking yourself, along with some positioning, you can get some hits of, especially if you manage to delay some animations. But it still feels hard to do.
There are always 2 types of assassins (i count in valk here due to her having side attacks as well): Those, that get utterly annihilated because they try a stupid frontal approach and shed tears for getting killed in side attack dash weaving, and those that simply parry/dodge/block/deflect those moves and punish.

Cyb3rR4ptor
04-04-2017, 07:47 PM
Nobushi's problem lies on her lack of tools to deal with many situations. Provided that in 1v1 only a few maps I find useful. Narrow passage maps give issues since she needs space.

I think that to start things off with her. Considering that we don't know what the coming patches will provide. I think the main thing that she needs is.
>Faster Guard Change Speed
>Kick Canceling
>Increased Dodge/Sidestep Distance
> Faster active on HS.
This should give her more options to move and mix but not make her something to consider OP. It's basically giving more utility to her current move set. Making her less predictable.

Herbstlicht
04-04-2017, 08:01 PM
Well, though i personally would LOVE everything you said, but changing the kick mechanic would be asking for much. I know, other classes have stuff like this. But a faster hs with a cancelable kick into gb (people dodge kick) would mean a 50/50. I don't want this :/

If you change kick, then maybe put in a second move that works like the one implemented right now, just with a harder to react timeframe (for example as fast as Valkyries sweep) or quicken the timing in general.

Honestly, if Ubi manages to put fast attack spam in line on consoles and enables me to deal with side attacks, i would already be perfectly happy. No need to be OP or the strongest class. Just the feel towards your matches to be fair would be enough :)

Helnekromancer
04-05-2017, 01:37 AM
As a Nobushi main currently rep 18 on her I feel she is balanced.

She has fast lights but they can easily be parried/block if the enemy pays attention to your weapon.
She has an infinite light combo if the enemy doesn't block, 3 lights followed up by a Viper's Retreat and if the hit lands she can do 3 more lights and so on and so on and as you lands these lights she picks up speed and her attacks hit aster but it's not a true combo because 1 block and you are stopped in your tracks.

But at higher tier levels you have to fight in short burst and try to land as many kicks as possible so you can land a safe bleed, luckily she has different way of getting out a kick
-1 regular light
-Hidden stance
-Guardbreak
-sidestep heavy
Her kicks is also easily dodged so still it depends on how fast your opponents reactions are and how well you can mask your kicks.
She also has a top heavy kick chain against a wall and you can kinda spam it a little for some cheesy damage,
And because of her slow guard stance you have to predict ahead of time of an attack like a warden or orochi;s zone attack.

I'm fine with all these known weaknesses and strength but what's been bugging me the most is how awful her stamina is. Doing a zone attack cancel, side heavy into a kick, landing the safe bleed and now she's exhausted. It's not a true combo but I'm just linking various moves up just to get out a light because an experienced player can easily dodge her zone and sidestep. I don't want them to make her kick cancellable because then she will just be a Japanese Warden with annoying 50/50 or buff her dmg so now I'm fighting n=Nobushi;s each game, Just buff her stamina regen or increase the amount of stamina she has so she can be offensive when she needs to be. Because the only time I die now as a Nobushi in duels is when I try to capitalize on an enemy's mistake and I run out of stamina before I can deliver the finishing blow.

Also the Hidden Stance fix is fine but it's not really a buff if you don't use it. If they lowered the stamina on it or reward the player for landing attack out of hidden stance with stamina then that would be a buff.

Herbstlicht
04-05-2017, 02:08 AM
Hmm, i do now her moveset pretty well too, but i dis**** the za play :/
I mean, this stuff should be reserved for groups. Not for single opponents. It is so sad that such a stupid move is of so much importance in every match, only because it is the fastest we got :/
She doesn't run out of stamina as fast without za, though hs and kick are pretty expensive too.

Helnekromancer
04-05-2017, 03:00 AM
Hmm, i do now her moveset pretty well too, but i dis**** the za play :/
I mean, this stuff should be reserved for groups. Not for single opponents. It is so sad that such a stupid move is of so much importance in every match, only because it is the fastest we got :/
She doesn't run out of stamina as fast without za, though hs and kick are pretty expensive too.

Everyone else uses their zone attack in 1v1 scenarios Warden, PK, Orochi so why can't Nobushi? I only use it because it comes out fast and always hit from the right so have your guard stance in the left or top and use a ZA will catch them off guard but at the same time an experience player can blok or parry it, if they know it's coming also cancelling the second part for a side ligh or side heavy is also a good mix up. Without ZA or using her sidestep heavy everything else can be easily punished leaving you with relying soley on HS in order to open people up since you mask where your next attack is going to come from You can't win with Nobushi just by using lights you have to come up with different ways of fighting, hence the uses of ZA and creating a string of mix ups off of that one move.

kweassa1917
04-05-2017, 04:31 AM
Me, the only gripe I have is the guard is somehow off when opponents are in very close range.

I mean, be it myth or truth they say Raider has a slow guard change, but I don't have problems blocking a PK light spam with Raiders, but for some reason, Nobushi guard seems to lag behind and whereas I'd successfully block maybe 80% of PK light spam attempts with a Raider, its like down to 20~30% with a Nobushi.

Realistically speaking, unlike swords spears don't have a left-right stance change in real life, and assuming a right-handed person it is always left-lead position. The sheer length of the spear type weapon makes it very awkward to change from left-lead to right-lead positions so they don't do it in real life. So if we're talking pure realism point of view it'd makes sense.... but the guard is just wierd.

That, and how the attacks spaz out and fail to activate promptly when you're in middle of stance change...

lDelicious
04-19-2017, 06:48 PM
Bumperino!

Elzziwelzzif
04-19-2017, 07:08 PM
As a nobushi main ill always cheer for updates that improve my character.
The things you suggested, however, wouldn't be my first points of interest.

Some attacks are a tad bit slow, not going to deny that. But i would give a lot more for some enhanced movement options over attacks.
We have the longest weapon in the game, but we can't really play that into our advantage.
Our max range is about 1 step/ dash from the enemies max range. Once they step into range we can only close it by spending quite a bit of stamina (double dash/ dash-roll).
A simple back-dash could be closed by most enemies with either a normal charge or a jump attack.

Would like to see them get a bit more power in their dashes/ the option to double dash before they enter into a roll (dash-dash-roll).

For most enemies i have more trouble getting out of their range than actually handling them when they try to get into range.

Oupyz
05-19-2017, 02:55 PM
Reviving An Old Thread Sense now Now Nobushi is being looked at by the Dev

Please Ubisoft Take a look Nobushi is pretty much lacking and by a lot

kweassa1917
05-19-2017, 03:02 PM
Reviving An Old Thread Sense now Now Nobushi is being looked at by the Dev

Please Ubisoft Take a look Nobushi is pretty much lacking and by a lot

They are??? Wow, that's good news.

Better run off to the Samurai forum and rebumbp all the old suggestions, lol. :D

Oupyz
05-19-2017, 03:09 PM
ok let me give better data to the Devs since Shonibi/Cents are released

top light 18f 600ms needs to be 500/500/guarantee
side lights 15f 500/600/guarantee needs to be 500/500/guarantee

hidden stance needs to act as an opener for Nobushi

its up to them what to decide to do there

i would say make attacks coming out of hidden stance much faster to act as an opener while keeping the stamina punishment thus HS wont be spammed

the kick is useless maybe buff her in a way

Brologna_Xeno
05-19-2017, 04:29 PM
If her light attacks had superior block on their initial frames, that would imitate the shield using heavies. You watch the animation of her lights, they even look as though there is a small parry->riposte aspect to them. So if they are not sped up, could put superior block on those frames.

The stamina hit and regen freeze on HS is over the top. What do do with her kick, faster recovery?