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View Full Version : How do you enjoy Virtual Cockpits, I mean enjoy?



nearmiss
02-22-2004, 02:34 PM
I gave up flying the Virtual cockpit of most aircraft, especially the 190 series, long ago.

In fact, it may sound dreadful to full real buffs. I fly the HUD most of the time. I want to enjoy all the visual features of the sim.

I cannot conceive of how anyone comes close to seeing much of anything via the Virtual cockpits. It appears to me "immersive" is not a word that applies to the experiences you're having.

My question is how do you explain enjoyment of the virtual cockpits as obstructed as they are?

Is there something I'm missing?

If you've got some good reasons I'd seriously like to read them. Reasons, other than you have to fly virutal cockpits in full real Online servers. (that I can understand...it's required)

Don't take this is as a troll posting. I appreciate the fact that someone takes all that time and effort to carefully describe the cockpits in elaborate detail. I realize it is a lot tedious work, which I respect.

I think it gives a good feel to the sim to have a feeling of being in a cockpit. In fact, I think it would be very lame to have lousy cockpit graphics. I just think the frame bars and lack of head movement obstruct views and take away from the sim experience.

When I think about it I think the LoMac, Jane's F/A-18, Falcon 4.0, and Flanker 2.5 are better suited to the superb virtual cockpits. I say this because with sophisticated radar and weapons systems the flying of the plane is done more through the cockpit panels than visually. Also, visually, the Jet Sims are far superior to the WW2 IL2-FB type sims, because the canopies are much less obstructed.

I realize the reasoning behind most of the WW2 cockpit obstructions was to provide a containment strength for heavier or bullet resistant glass canopies. I'm just not sure obstucting the view of the virtual cockpits is best for the WW2 simulation experience.

Again, I'd seriously like to know what makes the virtual cockpits so valuable to the flight sim experience when the views are so de-limited.

-------------------- http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Don't get neg'd by me. I'm what you might call...an alternative thinker. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

nearmiss
02-22-2004, 02:34 PM
I gave up flying the Virtual cockpit of most aircraft, especially the 190 series, long ago.

In fact, it may sound dreadful to full real buffs. I fly the HUD most of the time. I want to enjoy all the visual features of the sim.

I cannot conceive of how anyone comes close to seeing much of anything via the Virtual cockpits. It appears to me "immersive" is not a word that applies to the experiences you're having.

My question is how do you explain enjoyment of the virtual cockpits as obstructed as they are?

Is there something I'm missing?

If you've got some good reasons I'd seriously like to read them. Reasons, other than you have to fly virutal cockpits in full real Online servers. (that I can understand...it's required)

Don't take this is as a troll posting. I appreciate the fact that someone takes all that time and effort to carefully describe the cockpits in elaborate detail. I realize it is a lot tedious work, which I respect.

I think it gives a good feel to the sim to have a feeling of being in a cockpit. In fact, I think it would be very lame to have lousy cockpit graphics. I just think the frame bars and lack of head movement obstruct views and take away from the sim experience.

When I think about it I think the LoMac, Jane's F/A-18, Falcon 4.0, and Flanker 2.5 are better suited to the superb virtual cockpits. I say this because with sophisticated radar and weapons systems the flying of the plane is done more through the cockpit panels than visually. Also, visually, the Jet Sims are far superior to the WW2 IL2-FB type sims, because the canopies are much less obstructed.

I realize the reasoning behind most of the WW2 cockpit obstructions was to provide a containment strength for heavier or bullet resistant glass canopies. I'm just not sure obstucting the view of the virtual cockpits is best for the WW2 simulation experience.

Again, I'd seriously like to know what makes the virtual cockpits so valuable to the flight sim experience when the views are so de-limited.

-------------------- http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Don't get neg'd by me. I'm what you might call...an alternative thinker. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Urist
02-22-2004, 03:07 PM
I find that turning off snap view and going to the widest cockpit view with one tab upwards with the hat gives a VERY commanding view of whats in front of you and lets you see your gunsight still. Personally I hate flying with the cockpit off because I get disoriented almost immediatly and end up buying the farm just because I lost track of where the ground was. That and the cockpits are so purdy..

Otherwise, not being able to move your head around to see other aircraft behind bars is the only real limiting aspect of the sim. Some airplanes did have a lot of blindspots naturally and this is just the nature of those aircraft.

As far as needing keys to move ones head around, its something that could be done automatically to keep an aircraft spotted when padlocked and not in gunsight view so I don't see that as a huge problem. Although, a lot of people refuse to use padlock as its unrealistic, I think with some reworking it could be a realisic way to keep track of aircraft that you have spotted.

Restrict enabling padlock to aircraft within 1 km that you have more or less centered in your screen, and once its locked your head moves around in the cockpit to keep it visible unless you go to the gunsight view, where your head is of course locked into position looking down the gunsight.

I think that would solve a lot of problems.

wideblade
02-22-2004, 04:26 PM
sorry,but dont yu think that goes near an arcade sim?? the charm of this game is based on its simulating properties and cockpits are what they are ,not a belvedere

XyZspineZyX
02-22-2004, 05:33 PM
1) The cockpits in FB are among the best ever done; why waste all that great 3D and 2D work?

2) It has nothing to do with "preference"; cockpits simply were there, and they *were* a visual factor. You can't (or shouldn't be able to) "wish them away" for your own convenience with a toggle switch.

3) The "problems" they present to SA and visuals can be overcome, even though they likely are more of a problem than they actually were in life, simply because our sim doesn't factor in binocular vision. Still, even with this shortocoming, it's no contests: cockpit on is the only way to go.

nearmiss
02-22-2004, 07:56 PM
I agree the HUD view is disorienting. The targeting reticle in the center of the screen does help some with situational awareness.

I have flown the virtual cockpits, but I found myself continually clicking on external views. My reason being to enjoy the simulation objects, effects, landscapes, etc.

When flying to engagement areas at advanced rates 1X,2x,4X,or 8X I've used externals just to enjoy the IL2-FB sim experience. I've found it boring to fly the virtual cockpits, seeing practically nothing.

The newview utility does add a unique presentation. If I were in an actual aircraft trying to position on an enemy I was following I would be leading my actual position visually. In other words I'd be looking up, to the side, etc., and continually keep moving my eyes back to the front.

The Wideview does present some help. Help, because it could be interpreted to be a modest peripheral visual views.

I appreciate the comments, but I'm still thinking the viewing system within the IL2-Fb could be improved a great deal. I guess we're all in the same boat. I'd say, effectively the views are not quite right, no matter how you apply them.

----------------------------- http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

DedEyes
02-22-2004, 08:05 PM
Perhaps a solution to the limited view would be to have a semi transperant cockpit option.
That way you could fly with cockpit but still have partial vision through the struts and supports .

http://warbirdsart.freewebspace.com/images/pearl_harbour.jpg

starfighter1
02-23-2004, 02:26 AM
hi,
the 'camera view system ' in the running game engine(since IL-2) is the main bug of the virtual view design of the developer.

A redesign and reprogramming is usefull to get better cockpit forward and surround views at different type of cockpits in the game, even after all this new modelled planes.

Anyway : 'nice' panels are 'nice' panels and a combat view compare to real pilots hight of view (beside this 'overframed bars at some cockpits) is another story.

We need a flexible 'camera view system' in the game engine to adjust pilot seats and revis/gyroscopes at different cockpit and gunsight views.

This is a pc-combatsim and not a nice balloon country side trip.

http://www.eichhorn.ws/assets/images/thunderbird.gif

Aztek_Eagle
02-23-2004, 04:44 AM
i like my copit, yea some are hard, but still i enjoy it because it is realistic, and u get used to it afther a while

lbhskier37
02-23-2004, 05:08 AM
Number one the cockpits in this game are a work of art, and turning them off is a shame.

Number two,turning off the cockpits nullifys many valid fighter tactics like the roll and dive, or any other maneuver used to drop below the nose of them enemy quickly. Although the cockpit gives FW pilots a disadcantage when it comes to visibilty, the roll dive makes up for that I think.

Third, having the cockpit off teaches you to have much better situational awareness. Fly without cockpit for a week and you will see that you notice everying going on around much more.

http://lbhskier37.freeservers.com/pics/Killasig2.jpg (http://www.il2skins.com/?action=list&whereauthorid=lbhkilla&comefrom=display&ts=1049772896)
Official "uber190n00b"
"Only the spirit of attack, born in a brave heart, will bring success to any fighter aircraft, no matter how highly developed it may be." Adolf Galland

XyZspineZyX
02-23-2004, 05:31 PM
Also, in terms of "enjoyment", I'll add that they become part of the challenge of the fight.

Yes, it sucks that there are bars to consider, but it sucked to the real pilots, so, as a simulated pilot, I can deal with it too. It adds to the immersion.

Pretending they're not there and reaping all the unrealistic benefits thereof (under the nose shots, eyes in back of your head, and a horrible sense of sameness for every "plane" you fly)...all that defeats the very reason I'm flying a SIM.

BaylorMax
02-23-2004, 05:58 PM
I've flown this series of games since the original IL2 came out two Thanksgivings ago. Originally I flew with the no cockpit view and enjoyed it. I just could not even begin to survive much less enjoy the game in cockpit mode.

Then about 6 months ago or so I bought Track IR and fell in love with the in cockpit mode. It's fun and a real challenge. My squad is involved with VOW (Virtual Online War)and it's all in cockpit. I think that I like the challenge and the ability to really use evasive maneuvers. With the no cockpit view success really depended more on fast reflexes than on strategy. Since I'm 55, I need a view that allows old age and treachery to succeed against youth and enthusiasm!

ucanfly
02-23-2004, 06:09 PM
Hang in there I can sympathise. Getting used to tracking and being aware of many bogies while in the full cockpit is one of the great challenges of the game, but adds to the realism as well. I think that the trick is to figure out the best way to track an object while in the cockpit by using the mouse (in your offhand), the hat, or if your single and want to stay that way - Track IR. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Once you get the hang of visually tracking one object , try multiple bogies and practice, practice, practice. The cockpit enhances the feeling of being inside of these warbirds. Once you get used to this "No cockpit" will feel almost like cheating - cheating yourself that is.

SeaFireLIV
02-23-2004, 06:19 PM
I agree with Ucanfly. I use the mouse in the spare hand. Anyway, it really is practice, eventually the eye `learns` what to look for and the hand-eye coordination with the mouse soon works instinctively, believe me.

Once you get used to cockpit mode it really is great and you `feel` you`re flying the correct way at last. Also, once you get used to it, it`s probably best to stay off `no cockpit` servers til you are confident.

When I fly on `no cockpit servers` I will always do it with cockpit on and you`ll be surprised how well you do against the WW fliers. It`s a good test of your SA abilities.

I would use TIR, but it`s not a priority since I`m pretty fine as I am.

SeaFireLIV...

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v31/SeaFireLIV/little_armsFB.jpg
The Fights continue out of the Servers...

Gunner_361st
02-23-2004, 06:57 PM
Flying in the cockpit is one of the most enjoyable aspects of Forgotten Battles.

Whether its flying along in a HE-111 through a bank of clouds, looking out over the water as you fly over the Pacific in a Zero, look down at Berlin as you soar ahead in a Mustang, or gaze down at Stalingrad in an Me109, FW190, or Stuka Dive Bomber, it just adds atmosphere. Its not easy using a Hat or a Mouse to try and track bogies, but if you master it, it will be natural AND enjoyable. Trust me and the others on this one. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Captain Gunner of the 361st vFG

http://home.comcast.net/~smconlon/wsb/media/245357/site1039.jpg

CO_Eagle_31stFG
02-23-2004, 07:10 PM
nearmiss
My question is how do you explain enjoyment of the virtual cockpits as obstructed as they are?


The enjoyment comes from being able to put yourself in the plane as it was. Just like the real pilots did. It gives you a better prospective of what they had to deal with back then.
Some of us just want our sim to be limited to what you could actually see if you were in that particular aircraft. Sure the other options are good to have for filming purposes but when it comes to flying I'm all for being in the cockpit.

Korolov
02-23-2004, 07:19 PM
For me, the No Cockpit view is disorienting.

Most of all, in no cockpit view, you loose critical information, like temperature, RPMs, manifold pressure, and all those goodies. Those might not seem important at first, but they make all the difference when you need them.

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/newsig1.jpg

SeaFireLIV
02-24-2004, 04:45 AM
One more very SIMPLE point I must add:

Just to look left and right and actually see... WINGS! I mean what more do you want than that? Is that not the whole point of flying- well almost?

SeaFireLIV...

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v31/SeaFireLIV/little_armsFB.jpg
The Fights continue out of the Servers...

wideblade
02-24-2004, 05:10 AM
Above all the key point is that this is a game that is not easy to master,it needs practice,practice,practice ,PRACTICE....and then yu start to enjoy the cockpit and the points that before seemed to be a problem start to be part of the joy.I agree with yu,getting used to manage the mouse with yur spare hand is part of the experience.

-Whiteknight-

blabla0001
02-24-2004, 08:41 AM
I can only fly with the cockpit on because I need it to verify what way I am looking at towards the direction I am flying at when I am in a heavy dogfight.

I have zero problems keeping track of my target from inside the cockpit.

Besides, I have always flown with the cockpit on in every flight sim I played and with the cockpit off in FB I feel naked and odd.

Dnmy
02-24-2004, 09:50 AM
I can play comfortably all the time in no cockpit view (just the gunsight) without losing orientation or spatial awareness and i can play comfortably with cockpit on all the time. Orientation wise it doesn't matter to me if cockpit is on or off.

However neither setting feels too realistic to me.

Allthough the cockpits are supposed to be historically correct, the view from the cockpit is definitely not correct (too narrow field of view).

With cockpit off FB feels like a space sim. Having nothing to do with a ww2 sim. With cockpit on, in some planes the cockpit is just about all you see.

There is no golden middle way in FB. The cockpits in FB were constructed historically correct for us to be able to admire them. It's just a pity that in an aircombat sim the goal is not to admire the cockpits, but to look out of them.

FB beside IL2 are actually the only sims that i know of where the cockpit obstructions are in fact so big that they give cause to much frustration.

I appreciate the work that went into modelling the cockpits. But it would be nice if a balance could be found WRT better cockpit visibility and historical accuracy. Right now the emphasis seems to be modelling the cockpits "100%" correct, yet getting a realistic view from that correctly modelled cockpit is totally neglected.
And getting a realistic view from the cockpit should be getting more attention. e.g. by widening the field of view.

starfighter1
02-24-2004, 10:07 AM
hi,
here some links at German forum by 'Jagdgeschwader 4': enjoy the real pics/ cokpit views + videos(Air-Museum Hannover-Laatzen),..re to this 'gnomish' cockpit camera view and overframed design in FB..

http://www.jagdgeschwader4.de/Flugzeuge/Me109/Info-Me109-alles.htm

http://www.jagdgeschwader4.de/Flugzeuge/Me109/Fotos/Fotos-Me109-alles.htm

http://www.jagdgeschwader4.de/Flugzeuge/Me109/JG4-Film-109.AVI

http://www.jagdgeschwader4.de/Flugzeuge/FW190/Fotos/Fotos-FW190-alles.htm

http://www.jagdgeschwader4.de/Flugzeuge/FW190/JG4-Film-FW190.AVI

http://www.eichhorn.ws/assets/images/thunderbird.gif

wideblade
02-24-2004, 11:16 AM
About visibility realism the the testimony of pilots who fly/flew in real life any of the planes modeled at the simulator is the main way.Anyone out there??

Platypus_1.JaVA
02-24-2004, 12:20 PM
You fly cockpits off when you want to have sopme quick fun. Not concerning the plane you are flying in. You just pick the one that seems the best to you. The plane itself doesn't matter as long as it has X top speed, Y clim speed and Z turning circle. German, US, Brit or USSR planes, there is no diffrence anymore, just stats on how they fly.

With cockpit on, you have much more feeling with the aircraft you are flying in. You see weird characters on the dials and dashboard in the ZERO wich doesn't seem to mean anyting (except for Japanese people, no offense meant) You see the speed dial in American and british aircraft reading entirely diffrent numbers then the speedbar shows. You notice a bit of the inferior construction/enginering techniques when you notice the compass on some russian planes is obstructed by the stick. You feel like sharing the strong and weak points of aircraft, considering the view out of the window.

Flying with cockpit on, it gets much more immersive. You can make yourself feel like a real Japanese, a German, A russian pilot. While cockpit-off transforms the sim into a furball with absolute anonimous aircraft, reduced to some speed/climb/turn graphs. With nice radar like pointers so, you won't have to look for aircraft yourself. Cockpit-off reduces the game to some average FPS, with an extra dimension.

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge,
ye shall be judged: and with what
measure ye mete, it shall be measured
to you again.

http://server5.uploadit.org/files/JaVAPlatypus-1java.JPG (http://www.1java.org)

Platypus_1.JaVA
02-24-2004, 12:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Korolov:
For me, the No Cockpit view is disorienting.

Most of all, in no cockpit view, you loose critical information, like temperature, RPMs, manifold pressure, and all those goodies. Those might not seem important at first, but they make all the difference when you need them.

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/newsig1.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No-cockpit servers also tend to have the "complex engine management" and "overheats" options turned off.

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge,
ye shall be judged: and with what
measure ye mete, it shall be measured
to you again.

http://server5.uploadit.org/files/JaVAPlatypus-1java.JPG (http://www.1java.org)

JungleGeorge061
02-24-2004, 02:39 PM
It's time for someone to develope a affordable, hi-res, wide feild of veiw head mounted display or display glassess that will finnially put us in these great cockpits.
What a blast it would be http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

blabla0001
02-24-2004, 03:26 PM
And somehow it turned into another "boohoo the cockpit frames hold me back of becomming an instant Ace" thread.

But then, I didn't expect anything else.

XyZspineZyX
02-24-2004, 04:27 PM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

ASH at S-MART
02-24-2004, 05:15 PM
They mock what they dont understand! ROTFL!

ASH at S-MART
http://www.thecobrasnose.com/images4/brucecampbellSMart.jpg

tttiger
02-24-2004, 05:56 PM
I guess it's my own prejudices, or reasons for flying sims, but I am astonished whenever this topic comes up.

I try not to criticize those who fly with settings different that the ones I prefer. I'll fly full difficult. I prefer having externals (cause the game is so damn pretty) and I prefer having icons on (I'm getting old and the eyestrain in full real is enormous, Visine is making a fortune off of me http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif). In fact, I can remember when stglr was a diehard advocate for icons http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I have no problems with what era people want to fly in.

At heart, I'm still a WWI sim buff but there aren't any good ones available right now. I've flown jets (Falcon 4.0 is still the best sim ever made IMHO). IL-2 has been my choice for the past couple of years and I'm not seeing any reason to change.

But I cannot understand flying without a cockpit. That is where my flexibility on settings ends. I will not fly in any arena where cockpits can be turned off. It is beyond silly. Arcade is too nice a word for it.

The fantasy of "being there" comes from the cockpit (and the wings and the new chatter packs are great). If I want to fly a Jug (which I usually do these days), I want to be able to look around the cockpit and see what Robert Johnson or Gabby Gabreski or Hub Zemke saw. It's a whole question of "context." The history is the major appeal to me.

IL-2/FB has some of the best cockpits I've ever seen. They are amazingly accurate. When I crank up the wheels on the Rata and that handwheel goes round and round, I still say "Wow!" even though I've done it a thousand times.

To be sure, Falcon 4.0 has even better cockpits with interactive switches and buttons you activate with the cursor. I'd like to see that in FB. (and yes Falcon 4.0 has a Wonder Woman view with no cockpit).

I guess this is a long-winded way of saying I can't even discuss this topic rationally. The whole idea of flying without a cockpit strikes me as totally absurd. I simply cannot understand no-cockpit advocates.

Just my opinion. Free and worth exactly what you paid for it.

Aloha,

ttt

"I want the one that kills the best with the least amount of risk to me"

-- Chuck Yeager describing "The Best Airplane."

Dnmy
02-24-2004, 06:05 PM
I wouldn't prefer no cockpit either.
Nevertheless it's not even hard to understand why people choose to play without the cockpit.
It's because they can hardly see anything with cockpit on.

Rather than to blame the individual player for his choice for no cockpit, i'd rather blame it on the FB cockpits. Let's be honest, if there ever was a sim with (cockpit) visibility issues, IL2 and FB have got to be it.

And that i find a pity. The cockpits are enjoyable to admire. But practically all that cockpit art serves no other real purpose than to be admired. The simmer would be better served with slightly less accurate cockpits, but with a view out of the cockpit that is a lot more accurate.

SeaFireLIV
02-24-2004, 06:15 PM
(sigh...)

If we had cockpits that allowed you to stick your head out to the wind to see left and right while dogfighting I guarantee there would still be people flying in `no cockpit view`.
Why?
Because a cockpit is restrictive. They just are, even in reality. You can`t see when you look down because the floor of the plane will be there! People won`t like that. There are things you simply can`t see because parts of the aircraft will obstruct your vision. So the WWV would all still be there, but with different excuses.

Ok? No matter what is done your view WILL BE restricted.

Damn it. It`s not that hard to fly with it on, turn your plane, jink left, right, adapt and get used to it.

SeaFireLIV...

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v31/SeaFireLIV/little_armsFB.jpg
The Fights continue out of the Servers...

Dnmy
02-24-2004, 06:20 PM
The cockpit may be restrictive.

But a realistic view from that restrictive cockpit is nowhere near as restrictive as in FB. That's the point i'm trying to make.

The cockpit bars wouldn't be such a problem if a more realistic view from the cockpit could be simulated. Right now it's just too awkward to be realistic in both opposite settings (cockpit on, no cockpit)

[This message was edited by Dnmy on Wed February 25 2004 at 01:55 AM.]

waterinthefuel
02-25-2004, 05:57 AM
I can't help but laugh at all who say the no cockpit view is disorienting. How exactly does the cockpit tell you which was is up? I fly without the cockpit as much as I can. Why? Because when I do I seem to have the greatest number of points of anyone on my team, sometimes the entire server. Meaning...I do much better when I can see the world around me.

Hehe, love me or hate me, but if it's an option I'm going to use it. I have found leading airplanes is much easier if there is no panel in the way! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://www.nissanusa.com/m/static/i/tnav_logo_shift.gif

SeaFireLIV
02-25-2004, 06:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by waterinthefuel:


Hehe, love me or hate me, but if it's an option I'm going to use it. I have found leading airplanes is much easier if there is no panel in the way! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for proving my point.

SeaFireLIV...

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v31/SeaFireLIV/little_armsFB.jpg
The Fights continue out of the Servers...

blabla0001
02-25-2004, 06:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by waterinthefuel:
I can't help but laugh at all who say the no cockpit view is disorienting. How exactly does the cockpit tell you which was is up?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The fact that you don't understand how the cockpit allows you to see which way your are looking says enough.

But I don't mind you wonder woman flyers because I never play on open cockpit servers and when I host the option is disabled so I never run into them either way.

Sometimes a wonder woman player arrives at my server and quickly drops from the server or when they complain about it I help them drop from the server right away.

Don't like the server settings?
Don't logon or simply leave without crying about it.

XyZspineZyX
02-25-2004, 11:38 AM
What says even more, Capp is how the Wonder Women all base their "choice" on how it just "lets them see and shoot better", never mind that that is a completely ahistorical and inaccurate advantage that de facto improves their effectiveness.

While we all agree that the in cockpit view is a bit more restrictive than that afforded by real binocular vision, surely nobody can argue with a straight face that that's less realistic than just pretending that no obstructions existed at all.

Once again, the difference between the gamer and the sim-fan: the gamer only looks at "fun" and "convenience" to make a settings choice (and often won't even admit that this is the driving force behind his "decision"), the sim fan tries to arrive at what's closest to reality, whether that's "convenient" or not.

The sim fan realizes that the "inconveniences" are simply part of the challenge, and explores how to deal with them rather than taking the easy road of flipping up a virtual switch and "making it go away".

nearmiss
02-25-2004, 12:36 PM
I've got to add something to this...

I principally fly Offline, and one very big issue with offline flying is the all seeing..."AI".

Restricted Virtual cockpit viewing is just heaping on more difficulty when the AI can see..through clouds, in the dark, behind them, below them, in all weather, etc.

Offline aerial combat is seriously inhibited by poor viewing from virtual cockpits, and the HUD is a losing situation because your situational awareness is impaired even more.

What do you do? WHat is the trade-off? I fly the HUD offline, and access the outside views. Now tell me how unrealistic that is. LOL

I'm amazed that 1C:Maddox is so reluctant to make changes to actually accomodate viewing for the Offline and Online players.

Maybe it's just something Russian...and non-Russians just don't get it. LOL

Just kidding, only Oleg knows... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

------------------- http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

buz13
02-25-2004, 02:00 PM
Well, nothings perfect. I fly mainly with the virtual cockpit mid level zoom and the padlock on with the icons off most of the time. That seems most realistic to me. The max wide view would be good if I had a higher resolution and larger screen but I go blind using that. On-line I go with the HUD view if everyone else is using it but prefer hosts that do not allow it but have padlock turned on. With just the HUD view I often forget what aircraft I'm flying......it's an age thing. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

blabla0001
02-25-2004, 04:04 PM
With cockpit on the current all seeing AI is not a real challenge anymore once you find out their limitations.
With wonder woman view it's going to be a complete joke.
I am really hoping the AI improvements in AEP will make the AI a better opponent.

waterinthefuel
02-25-2004, 10:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by waterinthefuel:


Hehe, love me or hate me, but if it's an option I'm going to use it. I have found leading airplanes is much easier if there is no panel in the way! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for proving my point.

SeaFireLIV...

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v31/SeaFireLIV/little_armsFB.jpg
The Fights continue out of the Servers...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


More than welcome buddy! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

If I'm on a wonderwoman server I'm going to use it, because I know others are as well. Why let pride get in the way of fairness? It's not much fun flying with the cockpit on if it puts you at a disadvantage of everyone else on the server.

It's better than cockpit view, which, without the ability to move your view where you want it WITHOUT TYING UP ANOTHER HAND, is completely unrealistic.

http://www.nissanusa.com/m/static/i/tnav_logo_shift.gif

TheGozr
02-26-2004, 12:46 AM
Cockpit only... period!

-GOZR
http://www.french.themotorhead.com/themotorhead_fighters/images/pix/il2fbtmhlogosmall.jpg &lt;--Uncensored version IL2fb here (http://www.french.themotorhead.com/themotorhead_fighters/)

Aztek_Eagle
02-27-2004, 08:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lbhskier37:
Number one the cockpits in this game are a work of art, and turning them off is a shame.

Number two,turning off the cockpits nullifys many valid fighter tactics like the roll and dive, or any other maneuver used to drop below the nose of them enemy quickly. Although the cockpit gives FW pilots a disadcantage when it comes to visibilty, the roll dive makes up for that I think.

Third, having the cockpit off teaches you to have much better situational awareness. Fly without cockpit for a week and you will see that you notice everying going on around much more.

http://www.il2skins.com/?action=list&whereauthorid=lbhkilla&comefrom=display&ts=1049772896
Official "uber190n00b"
"Only the spirit of attack, born in a brave heart, will bring success to any fighter aircraft, no matter how highly developed it may be." Adolf Galland

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Full real gives pilots of planes like fws the advantage of surprise, i have flown them, and it works alot

nearmiss
02-27-2004, 11:12 AM
I appreciate everyone enjoys the sim, in their fashion.

Flying the virtual cockpit is just a fun thing to see occassionally. Afterall, we need to appreciate all the hard work that went into the pictures.

Problem is...the visability issues are significant. All the pretty cockpits don't get it. I could care less about big nuts and bars showing in my TA-152 Cockpits. If I were actually flying in the aircraft I could move my head and body to compensate for all the visual obstructions. I cannot see how anyone can defend fixed views of large cockpit frame bars and seriously restricted visuals.

Regardless, I realize we all have to deal with incomplete issues to enjoy this great sim. The Full Mission Builder is a lame tool, but I still work with it. The results achieved are still better with the aircraft, maps, landscapes in IL2-FB than any WW2 sim.

My subject posting on this thread...

How do you enjoy Virtual Cockpits, I mean enjoy?

I conclude enjoyment is just a hit and miss issue with all of us http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

------------------ http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

adriatic
02-27-2004, 03:12 PM
After dogfight I like to turn to vitual c. ,shut down slowly bombers with no arms and land in this mode. It is special feeling. I'm happy to have both and like this it shoudl stay. I think virtual c have sense only for dogfighting with people, not against AI.

My dream is to have 3D helmet with full head movement tracking. I hope developming of sims will go this way...

Philipscdrw
02-28-2004, 03:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>You see weird characters on the dials and dashboard in the ZERO wich doesn't seem to mean anyting (except for Japanese people, no offense meant)

Flying with cockpit on, it gets much more immersive. You can make yourself feel like a real Japanese, a German, A russian pilot<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Problem is, if I was a Japanese, German, or Russian pilot (which is what I pretend to be when playing FB), I wouldn't see random squiggles and strange letters, but informative abbreviations. When a Japanese pilot looks at the airspeed indicator, he doesn't see "¯i" and think, "WTF does that mean?"; he sees "ASI" and thinks, "That's the Airspeed Indicator".

BTW Stigler trolls like RBJ but has the complete opposite attitude to playing FB (i.e as a RPG rather than 3d Asteroids)

PhilipsCDRW

Playing LO-MAC on Win98 with stability.

Philipscdrw
02-28-2004, 03:49 PM
BTW I'm sitting at the PC with my glasses on. They have vaguely rectangular frames. I can see the horizontal part of the frame but not the verticals. Binocular view makes the verticals semitransparent but not the horizontals. I would like to see this included in FB

PhilipsCDRW

Playing LO-MAC on Win98 with stability.

Bearcat99
02-28-2004, 04:25 PM
I like to go both ways with the pit on or off. I like the great graphics of the sim but the cockpits are a part of those graphics...... When I fly with the pits on I find that the feeling of flight is a little different...even though you dont see as much of the outside..the fact that when you look left or right you see wing, when you look down you see moving gauges is great to me. I did a check..and FB does have the best looking and most accurate cockpits out. I like it both ways.

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catrevey
02-29-2004, 12:53 PM
This is an interesting post which has no simple answer. I have flown for many years with HUD and visually I seem to gain more from this mode. I periodically use and pracice with cockpit on to see if I am missing anything and frankly, I cannot say that I am. FB has excellent detailing in all categories so it is hard to go wrong with either selection. To me vision is as important as proper FM.

zoomar2
02-29-2004, 04:57 PM
I often play with the cockpits on simply because they are so beautifully done. If IL2/FB had a true padlock like Janes WW2 fughters or EAW (one where you don't loose tracking when targets are obsured by canopy frames or cockpit) I'd keep them on all the time.

However, I must admit that flying with only the sight is very engoyable and gives one a much better view of the great graphics in the sky and ground.

So-called "realism" never enters into it for me. I play this game to enjoy it and marvel at the great job the developers have none, not to fool myself into believing I am flying a real plane.

nearmiss
02-29-2004, 05:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by zoomar2:
I often play with the cockpits on simply because they are so beautifully done. If IL2/FB had a true padlock like Janes WW2 fughters or EAW (one where you don't loose tracking when targets are obsured by canopy frames or cockpit) I'd keep them on all the time.

However, I must admit that flying with only the sight is very engoyable and gives one a much better view of the great graphics in the sky and ground.

So-called "realism" never enters into it for me. I play this game to enjoy it and marvel at the great job the developers have none, not to fool myself into believing I am flying a real plane.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree and fly the HUD most of the time with the instruments in the lower corners and the target in the screen center. It takes getting some used to, but if you're using the POV switch on the joystick it's pretty easy to remember situational where you're looking.

I was driving in the car this morning and began to carefully observe the frame bars and side bars in the car. I noticed, with 2 eyes and the ability to move my head and body some I'm practically un-aware the frame bars obstruct anything at all.

------------------------ http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

WUAF_Badsight
03-01-2004, 02:51 AM
DogFighting withe the Pit on is where the real skill comes in

sorry but its true